I've been using her in the SB and have been pretty pleased with her so far. Slightly slower than Nissa Worldwaker at closing at games but I like that all of Vital Force's abilities are relevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sara_Anderson
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I've been using her in the SB and have been pretty pleased with her so far. Slightly slower than Nissa Worldwaker at closing at games but I like that all of Vital Force's abilities are relevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sara_Anderson
I wanted to apologise for the tone of my post. I don't know what was up with me but the level of condescension and general anger was not appropriate. For that I am sorry.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingo
I do however stand by my argument about Slaughter Games not being what you want to have in the Matchup. I think you can construct a good argument for almost any card in a vacuum but in a 9 round tournament the loss of sideboard space will cost you more than you gain from the inclusion. This is assuming that the black splash can be accommodated well and its a good meta to be running an even more shaky mana base.
Either way, if you think it will be a good idea, test it out and report back, good luck!
Sib
I appreciate your reply. But it was monday afterall, and that's always a moody day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sibelius
I'll pm you with some thoughts, as it's probably a bit much here on the forum. But I just wanted to add that the suggestion of SGames was meant in reply of someone who was already on the blacksplash. And as for sideboardspace, you are right that it takes slots of the sideboard and that the cards it replaces, are part of the discussion. A card that fulfills a similar role is Boil (where Boil adds some value versus other bluebased matchups, and Slaughtergames adds some value against combo or control), and I can see Slaughtergames take its place in a blacksplash version.
I've been testing the blacksplash for the last few months - also with Slaughtergames and my conclusion is that it's not worth it. When ever I was able to cast it against storm decks something unusual was going on anyway (like the opp was way too slow, manascrewed, etc). So it didn't really help against these match-ups, it was just helpful when i was winning anyway. Against Miracles it was slightly different as I was able to resolve it way more often, but there's no single attack against this deck that "just wins" and whenever I removed all StPs I still lost against Bloodmoon, etc. So it took a while to realize that the latest proactive chalice/tracker approach might be way more effective (even though it hurts) than removing threats from the opponent's library. But I still love the card ;-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ingo
Hi all,
I just started playing with the deck a few weeks ago, and I'd like to ask the community for some sideboard advice. I've been having some trouble deciding which cards need to go when going to game 2. My sideboard is pretty stock, with 4 chalices, 4 trackers, 4 grips, a Karakas, a bojuka bog and a boseiju. The matchups are Abzan maverick, Death & taxes, Punishing maverick, Jund, RUG and Grixis delver, specially the first two. I would like to ask your opinion also on when is it correct to sideboard out loams and / or depths, since I'm never sure on when is it correct.
Thanks!
Its never really correct to sideboard out Loams or Depths. These are our win conditions. Sometimes people will take out a single depths, going to 3 if the matchup is very very grindy and long. None of these matchups is the place to do that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Benama9
You need to bring in your Grips and start to sideboard some more recursive removal like Molten Vortex or Seismic Assault if you play vs these decks often in your meta.
Take out Manabond to start with. You can often cut some 'one of' lands like Boseiju, Riftstone portal, Glacial Chasm, maybe a Maze of Ith or two or GQ if its main vs decks that play basics. If their graveyard hate plan is RIP then take out Tranquil thicket. Leave it in for Surgical.
Without your exact list its hard to say what to do next, there is not really a stock list, though from you sb I imagine you are running Daryl Ayers list with 4 GQ main. If you play vs DNT a lot you will find it more helpful to play Rishadan port over Ghost quarter. This way you can try to keep them off the mana needed to cast Sanctum Prelate that often locks you out of the game.
Trackers are often a good choice to bring in but you need to make sure you have the space for them. Don't remove too much of the main plan to fit them in. It is often a personal choice and heavily influenced by play style.
These matchups, other than DNT, are all good for us so if you are having problems it will be due to what you are prioritising in these games. Try to decide if your opening hands lead you to a quick combo win or a longer more drawn out grindy game. Also be aware of what you need to be playing around from these decks, their graveyard hate, wastelands and annoying cards like submerge or pithing needle.
I hope this helps you a bit.
Sib
Actually I've made the experience that boarding out 1-2 Loams makes sense against very fast combo MUs (f.e. Storm) when you don't really want to grind but make a token as fast as you can (and don't want to mill your own hate pieces). But I think that this is more a personal choice and depending on how you're playing the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sibelius
I've boarded out 4 Loams against Belcher, too.
I try to keep the core of our deck intact, meaning I would not side out combo-pieces. In general I would board out some 'useless' Toolbox-lands, perhaps shave some LftL, and maybe shave Gamble a/o CR. Always board out Manabond, if you play the card. I tend to have this rule: nothing is sacred, everything can be taken out. Knowing what to take out can be difficult, though :smile:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sibelius
This is really interesting. Actually you're right, I should've put the list I'm working on right now:
Lands:
1 x Forest
4 x Ghost quarter
1 x Glacial chasm
4 x Grove of the burnwillows
3 x maze of ith
2 x Taiga
4 x Thespian's stage
4 x Wasteland
1 x Windswept Heath
3 x Wooded foothills
1 x The tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 x Dark depths
2 x Tranquil thicket
...........................
Spells
4 x Mox diamond
4 x Exploration
1 x manabond
4 x crop rotation
4 x gamble
1 x molten vortex
3 x punishing fire
4 x life from the loam
1 x seismic assault
.................................
................................
SB
1 x Bojuka bog
4 x Chalice of the void
1 x Boseiju
1 x Karakas
4x tireless tracker
4 x krosan grip
............
What you proposed is very interesting. So in case of any of the maverick / Jund matchups, and considering I have maindeck vortex and assault, the sb should be something like this then? ( I haven't seen RIP yet, they've always used surgical )
+4 grips
-1 manabond
-1 glacial chasm
-1 ghost quarter
-1 maze of ith?
Against D&T
+4 grips ( is Karakas useful in any way in this matchup? )
-1 manabond
-2 ghost quarter
-1 maze / chasm?
Additionally, and according to your experience, would you suggest adding another vortex into the board for these matchups?
Thanks!
I would board all Tireless Trackers in the D&T matchup, and some of them also in the Jund matchup.
You need to be aware why you are bringing in Krosan Grip.Quote:
Originally Posted by Benama9
Why would you bring this card in vs Jund?
Does your opponenet play Leyline of the Void? Pithing Needle? Here you would be better adding some number of Trackers.
Grip is to kill their hate or disrupt their md plan. If that is equipment or Counterbalance then its a good idea but I don't see what it is doing vs Jund, although 2 is probs ok vs Dark Maverick as they have SFM. Bojuka bog is a play you can make vs Surgical extraction effects if you need.
Sideboarding with this deck is a difficult balancing act. You need to be aware of what cards they will be bringing in against you and what you can do to stop that disruption. This is because against nearly all decks we are doing something more powerful so they often go to the board for answers. Our board has answers for those answers. If the deck is not going to use Artifact or Enchantment hate vs us then why bring in the Krosan Grips? Our main deck plan is probably good enough already then.
Vs Jund I would
+ Bog
+ Some number of Trackers or Grips depending on what we see game 2 (Leyline = grips)
- Chasm (Deathrite and Wasteland deal with this, We don't want to get blown out)
- Manabond
- Seismic Assault (triple red is going to be hard to get here)
- possibly a Depths. We can quite easily grind them out as they have lots of dead cards.
Things to think about
How do they win? - Goyf tempo beat down backed up with some disruption in the form of deathrite or surgical. This means we need to keep Maze in and have ways to deal with deathrite and gy hate.
they play 2 basics
gotta run ill write more later
Sib
My policy is that I need a good reason not to bring in Grip! In other words, I need to be fairly certain they're not bringing in any artifacts or enchantments to hose my engine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sibelius
If in doubt, I bring in Grip(s) game two, and if I don't see any targets maybe I'll take them out for G3.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sibelius
That said there's not a lot of Jund in my meta any more (I've maybe been paired against it once in the last two years), so I'm not overly familiar with their current game plan. Maybe this is one of the few decks that we don't need Grip against? People do like their Surgicals these days!
I feel the same, K-Grip is one of the first cards I would consider boarding in, period. I've been punished far too many times for making the wrong decision :cry:Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
Agree. The one game ONE GAME I didn't board in K-grip, I lost to needles I didn't expect.
Good points.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sibelius
What you've suggested about chasm is also very interesting. Do we sb it out against any GBX wasteland deck? ( here I include RUG and grixis delver as well ). If so, in which matchups does glacial chasm really shines apart from burn? I can't see it being very useful against combo and there are better options against miracles. I'd love some advice in this direction.
Thanks
I had taken chasm completely out of my deck for a while, only threw it back in when I started going to a new place to play. I have not seen a game where I missed it or wanted it in a long time.
The only MUs I would side it out in (barring combo and miracles) is Death and Taxes due to them having Flickerwisp and Wasteland to get through it and sac'ing a land is pretty brutal in that MU
I wouldn't cut it from the deck, it lets us turn crop rotation into a fog (if we need it) and can buy us a lot of time in games where we are somewhat behind.
I love it against Aggro, but not control. I class DnT as control. If I cut it though, it would only be as far as the sideboard.
chasm helps against infect, elves, burn, belcher (if they used LED to pop it and can't back it up; even otherwise at times), zoo, and I don't really mind it most of the time against delver. They generally wasteland as soon as they see one to throw us off kilter to close the game out. in long games often I don't mind losing it for a turn or copying it with stage in response. It also can buy you time against an empty the warrens if the storm player went that route in G1. It can also prevent you from just losing to a price of progress.
chasm does seem to be a card that gets boarded out more often than most though.
I know it's not a bad card, but I just don't run into those matchups where it shines, or does any work at all. Maze does the job better without putting pressure on me or my resources (in my meta)
I can see how a Chasm might lose out to a different one-of land (Boseiju, Bojuka, Karakas, etc.), although I wouldn't recommend it. Even factoring in different metas, there are quite a few decks where having it matters.Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosjace
Glacial Chasm has saved me against the following decks (where a Maze would not have):
Manaless Dredge
Mana Dredge
Elves (so many times)
Burn
Infect
Eldrazi (so many times)
I have also faced situations where Chasm saved me against decks I might not have expected it to (Miracles with a Mentor out, Delver, Shardless, Death & Taxes) either because those deck pack Wastelands, or because you expect them to only have 1-2 active creature threats. True-Name Nemesis, in particular, comes to mind.
Lands players, you all had better have a really good explanation as why you haven't been playing this badboy.
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/ia/181.jpg
It's both Choke and 3/4s of a Mana Short but more importantly, the flavour win of the century.
CMC is too high. Often, 5 is easier to Counterbalance than 3 is as well.
Choke isn't called the The Choke of Marit Lage though... Why are you not all as excited by this as me :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
On a more serious note, surely with Mentor being everywhere, 5 mana is easier to get through CB than 3 mana? It's not as if you're not going to hit your land-drops either... :wink:
It's weird to see people complain about CMC in a deck that is half lands or more. Plus all the acceleration we run. I'd run this card, I am also considering Nissa for my SB.
any enchantment // artifact isn't that great vs Miracles because of the number of Disenchant type of effects they auto board in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevestamopz
That's part of why I moved away from Choke to begin with....
The flavor win is very real though :)
For the amount of lands and accelerators we run, mana is surprisingly tight. Both our Loam engine and Punishing Fire engine eat considerable mana. It's even tricky to keep mana free for Molten Vortex. Not to mention our non-producing lands, taking land-drops away. I had a hard time getting value out of Blighted Fen for this very reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosjace
I'll have to sleeve up this super cheeky tech one day and hope to get a laugh at my LGS, but it won't actually be very good. I've got (much) better cards to run against Miracles, plus I see a lot of decks where this won't come in at all. Lands itself is popular in my area, as well as Eldrazi, and D&T. Loam, Burn, MUD, Pox, and Dredge are all possibilities too. Not to mention Reanimator and Storm, which do run Islands but won't be affected by the Curse.
I could run it for fun, but it won't be very good. Maybe if High Tide ever come back I can hope to eat a counter-spell. :tongue:
Anyway, thanks for making me smile this morning Stevestamopz! :laugh:
I need 15 of those, if only so I can leave one after I 2-0 my opponents.
How are you guys boarding against infect - specifically what are you taking out?
My feeling is that we need as much removal and mana denial as possible, so that all stays in. Even Maze seems too important to cut - sure they can get around it with Vines or Needle, but it does bolster our defence and usually buys me time at worst. Meanwhile, Spheres and CotV are highly desirable to slow them down, and K-Grip is does good work killing Inkmoth as well as answering Needle.
My inclination is to leave out the Trackers despite the fact that we are facing Extraction (often they are targeting my removal or Wasteland/GQ instead of Loam or my combo pieces anyway). I guess I'm figuring we have to focus on control in this MU - I'm even shaving down the DDs to make room.
Any thoughts?
Edit - this is from the primer:
I'm not running Manabond, and Karakas is SB right now. Also I don't have Depths in the board and I don't really want too many in this MU anyway (especially without Manabond) as I don't think racing is the best plan here. Are you guys not bringing in lock-rocks?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Usually cut the flex spots (Thicket, 4th Dark Depths, etc) and some number of gamble. Basically the slower parts of the deck, and then start shaving if I need more spots.
Usually only board in Grips (haven't checked the infect thread in a bit to see what he's bringing in) , our maindeck is already good enough to beat them and we don't want to dilute the deck too much.
I faced the same problem yesterday; the list felt extremely tight when facing infect. As suggested, I considered taking out the thickets, but I'm not sure whether this is correct when most surely we are facing surgicals in G2 and G3. Finally I took out a depths, a manabond, a ghost quarter and a gamble for 4 x grips. I'd like to ask whether someone boards in the chalices against them and how good they are ( they shut down needle and surgicals ). If so, what are you taking out? Is it worth it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
Thanks.
I only board in the 4 Grips (decays) versus infect versus Inkmoth or a lone Needle, RIP (usually played over extraction where I play), Library ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
I usually cut down on 2 flexlands (Bog, Boseiju) and also 2 manadenial like Ports or Quarters.
Ports are too slow against infect, and as KGrip ups the amount of hate against Inkmoth, cutting some manadenial is justifiable.
I never side in chalices or Spheres against Infect, because they hinder you as much (or more) than the opponent (Chalice1 blocks crop for Chasm or the combo, whatever comes up first, and spheres tax our Punishing Fires as well). I don't board out gamble though, as I really want access to Pfire.
EDIT: I have bad experiences with boarding out Thicket, as I sometimes had to extensively mull due to colorscrew. That's a shame if you need to throw away an otherwise perfect hand. So now I never board Thickets out anymore.
I actually take out the two cards you mentioned that you don't have in your main - Karakas and Manabond, and board in Pithing Needle and Kozelik's Return. Our maindeck is already so well equipped to beat infect, that I never board into the normal combo hate (spheres and chalice). I just play it like a fair matchup and always keep hands with heavy removal. Pithing Needle is specifically for inkmoth nexus and I can see not needing to bring it in. You can maybe go down a dark depths? Comboing off ASAP is not important in the matchup because if you have heavy removal hands you can bide your time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
Hi all,
Last week I had the option to trade in a bayou for my EDH Gitrog deck. Since I already have the decays I was thinking i could use the dual as well to make the black splash in my lands deck as well. My question is: What are the advantages of the GRb lands build? Do all 3 decays go into the main? What about the board? I'd appreciate if someone could explain to me the main differences between playing both builds. Also, in which metas is better the splash and in which metas better no splashing at all? I guess the combo and miracles matchup get a little better, but I'd appreciate to know the community feedback
Thanks!
Edit: grammar
You've pretty much nailed it. Abrupt Decays (usually three main) shore up the Miracles match, and Thoughtseieze (from the board) does wonders in combo matches when combined with our mana denial and our ability to race them.
To make room for the Decays, the deck abandons the Punishing Fire package and not favorite of the leaner Molten Vorticies. This costs a lot of equity against fair decks - this is the tradeoff.
I'm less fond of the Jund build myself - I prefer prison and combo over discard and removal. Just a style thing. Maybe somebody with more experience with the black splash could further comment on the nuanced differences as to how the deck should be played.
I see your point here, though I have a question. Why isn't a build like this viable?Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
1xBayou
2xTaiga
1xForest
3xWindswept Heath
1xWooded foothills
3xMaze of ith
3xGrove of the burnwillows
4xDark depths
4xThespian's stage
1xGlacial chasm
1xTranquil thicket
4xWasteland
4xGhost quarter / Port
1xThe tabernacle at pedrell vale
4xLife from the loam
3xPunishing fire
1xMolten vortex
3xAbrupt decay
4xCrop rotation
4xMox Diamond
4xExploration
4xGamble
+ Sideboard.
I'm goldfishing these days with a list like this online, but I'd like to know your opinion as well.
Thanks!
Most poeple like to have better access to black mana in order to reliably cast Decay. David Long runs an extra two fetchlands plus Bojuka Bog Main for an extra three black sources. This pretty means something needs to be cut; I guess the Groves make the most sense because Vortex allows us to run a removal package that doesn't need those Lands (it does need extra Red sources in play - hence the third Taiga).Quote:
Originally Posted by Benama9
I guess you could try to run PF in the Jund build (I think I even saw such a list once). Looking at your list, I'd go:
-1 Vortex
-1 Thicket
+1 Bog
+2 fetches
For a total of 61 cards. Maybe this is viable - I guess the downside is you've still weakened your removal package (albeit less so) and you've cut into your flexibel slots (no room for Thicket or Karakas etc).
I don't know how good this would be. I haven't tested much with the black splash because it's not to my tastes. Also with Prelate kicking around I like a more diverse removal package - Vorticies and PFs (with Barbarian Ring too). And to be completely Honestly I'm leaving towards the RUG version in the current meta. But by all means expiriment!
Edit - here are a couple lists:
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=14091&d=283785&f=LE
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=13156&d=277038&f=LE
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=13093&d=276511&f=LE
And there are more if you care to search MTG top8. They seem to be running a meeker removal package than a full on R/G build, but also fewer black sources than other Jund builds. With these decks I guess the issue would be reduced consistency across all matches. But as I've said, I'm not exactly an expert on the black splash.
In addition to what Crimhead said, when you look at the 75, 4 krosan grip take up a lot of space for a card thats usually boarded in for some\all copies. Decay hits almost anything you board Kgrip in for, but as it destroys creatures\walkers too, it can trade for both Kgrips and Pfires in the main, freeing up 3 sideslots. You need a more heavy black manabase, especially if you want Thoughtseize in the side, as you really need to play TS on turn 1. Without groves you have Vortex as a recursive damagedealer instead of Pfire.Quote:
Originally Posted by Benama9
Its interesting to compare with Boseiju, a narrow card that takes an additional slot but is in line with the main strategy whereas decays free overall space in the 75 and is broadly applicable, but not synergic with the dredging theme.
Any thoughts about this card:
Pacification Array {1}
Artifact - Uncommon
2,T: Tap target artifact or creature.
Tapping creatures pre-combat? Or too cute? 2-mana activation is perhaps a bit much.