4 Card Blind

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Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie

Finally, artifact lands can break another format. (Ironically, I think Oko breaks this format as well unless there are turn 1 kills I am missing, which is likely.)

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The most ridiculous turn 1 kills involve cards like LED and draw 7s, by just redrawing your hand over and over again and then Storm infinity:
Lion's Eye Diamond, Echo of Eons, Pull from Eternity, Grapeshot

LED makes WWW. Then crack for UUU, discarding hand. Cast Echo from graveyard. It goes to exile and you redraw the others. Cast Pull for W, putting Echo back in graveyard. Play LED, crack, cast Echo from graveyard. Each loop nets +2 mana. Repeat x10000.
Infinite mana & infinite storm.

This is also infinite mana & storm, but just "wins" by discarding their hand and attacking for 15 Annihilator 6.
Lion's Eye Diamond, Wheel of Fortune, Regrowth, Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

LED make RRR. Cast Wheel, crack in response for GGG, Emrakul reshuffles. Wheel resolves, drawing the rest. Cast Regrowth returning Wheel. LED for RRR. Cast Wheel, crack LED for GGG.... Repeat x10000

LED and draw 7s are too good. But banning LED isn't enough.
Delif's Cone, Conjurer's Bauble, Conjurer's Bauble, Grapeshot
Fountain of Youth, Sensei's Divining Top, Sensei's Divining Top, Grapeshot
Claws of Gix, Elixir of Immortality, Ichor Wellspring, Grapeshot
Memnite, Elixir of Immortality, Skullclamp, Grapeshot
Infinite mana & infinite storm again.

Banning the storm mechanic isn't enough because Banefire, Exsanguinate, Storm Entity, Aetherflux Reservoir, or any other win condition works in most of these turn 1 storm decks.

Even if you ban the obvious looping cards like draw 7s, Bauble, Top, and Elixir, you can also do silly things like this
Shield Sphere, Shrieking Drake, Cavern Harpy, Tendrils of Agony

Sheild Sphere for UUU. Drake to return it. Sphere making BBB. Harpy, returning itself and Drake. (UBB floating, 19 life, 4 storm).
Drake returning Sphere. Sphere making UUU. Harpy, returning itself and Drake (UUB floating, 18 life, 7 storm)
Drake returning Sphere. Sphere making UUU. Harpy, returning itself and Drake (UUU floating, 17 life, 10 storm)
Drake returning Sphere. Sphere making BBB. (UUBBB floating, 12 storm)
Tendrilsx13

These ones are also problematic

Infinite turns till Reactor wins:
Mox Opal, Voltaic Key, Time Vault, Darksteel Reactor

T1 Barren Glory, then Chant their turn:
Dark Sphere, Lotus Petal, Orim's Chant, Barren Glory

T1 Prison tries to stop these combo decks from playing spells.
Can't cast artifacts or 0 cmc spells:
Engineered Explosives, Chalice of the Void, Archon of Valor's Reach, Cavern of Souls

Lose your hand and graveyard, with free protection slot:
Tormod's Crypt, Dark Deal, Nether Spirit, Chancellor of the Annex

Can hardcast either Chancellor or Lavinia, and equip for faster clock:
Chrome Mox, Chancellor of the Annex, Lavinia, Azorius Renegade, Bone Saw



Too bad most of those decks lose 0-6 to this turn 0 deck
Leyline of Anticipation, Memnite, Memnite, Collective Defiance

"Turn 0" Memnites cast kicked Collective Defiance, destroy their hand and burn something

Banning Leyline helps, but then there are just a lot of decks that 3-3 each other winning turn 1 OTP by either comboing off or locking the opponent out before they can play.

There are just too many silly things you can do with that much free mana. We need some more restrictive bannings in place or to punish the use of 0-mana artifacts.

5-1 card blind: You get to make a 5 card hand, but your opponent gets to exile ANY card from your hand before the game begins.

Hey guys, as you probably noticed, I was gone for Christmas. Normal posting should resume now, though I'm not home yet.
I hope everybody had nice Christmas days!

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Originally Posted by Reeplcheep

5-1 card blind: You get to make a 5 card hand, but your opponent gets to exile ANY card from your hand before the game begins.

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Sure you don't want to go non-land here? Otherwise we'd be forced to take an extra land, just to be sure we can cast something. :wink:


But anyway, as you guys have posted enough ideas for more than one season of Deviant something, I thought I'd add my own plan to the discussion.
This is what I had in mind:


DEVIANT LEGACY - PART 2 (we start with our Legacy banned list again, possibly with additional bannings)

1. Canadian Backbuild: A loss nets you 3 points and a win nets you zero. You still play optimally to win. Your deck must win both OTP and OTD against the Canadians (Snow-Covered Forest, Snow-Covered Mountain, Grizzly Bears, Balduvian Bears).

2. Vials Galore: Each player starts the game with an Aether Vial token in play. Additional bannings: Pithing Needle, Phyrexian Revoker.

3. Berserker: Creatures can't block, creatures attack each turn if able, combat damage cannot be prevented, prevent all non-combat damage to players.

4. Basic Bloom: You can play any basic land from outside the game at any time you could play a land. Additional bannings: White Sun's Zenith, Red Sun's Zenith, Beacon of Creation.

5. The Coin: When you are on the draw, you begin the game with a Lotus Petal token in play. (Funny: I saw this one posted earlier as well. Great minds... :smile: )

6. Bleed: At the beginning of each player's upkeep, that player loses 1 life.

7. WUBRG: Each player starts the game with [W] [U] [B] [R] [G] in their mana pool. This mana doesn't empty from the pool as steps end.

8. Alpha: Only cards printed in Alpha are legal.

9. Race for Life: Players don't lose the game for having 0 life or less or from having 10 or more poison counters. If a player has 100 life or more, he or she wins the game. If no player can reach 100 life, the game ends in a draw.

10. The Epic Round: All sorceries have Epic (For the rest of the game, you can't cast spells. At the beginning of each of your upkeeps, copy this spell except for its epic ability.).

11. Concise: Only cards with one-word names are legal.

12. Unique: Each player gets 6 additional points in this round for each card in their deck that no other player submitted this round. NB: To calculate season points, the points for the round are still divided by the number of opponents in the round, so it's possible to gain more than 6 season points this round.


The sharper among you will probably recognize a number of these from the 3CB Reddit thread that one of you posted to help me find ideas for the first Deviant season.
But anyway, I think I'll swap a few of the above with rounds from your ideas, but I'll save all of them so we can create a third Deviant season afterwards.

Please let me know what you like and don't like from my list, and what your favourite ideas are from the other suggestions, so I can get a feel for which round seem interesting to you guys.
Or just post that you like most of these and are interested in playing multiple seasons of Deviant something with the mentioned ideas.


PS. I'll look at the results for the season soon and post the official standings afterwards.
For now I have to say: what a race! Well done to both silk and dte for one of the closest finishes we've ever had!

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Originally Posted by Tylert

We need to snipe some lands for sure. the selection from FTW was a good one (Tabernacle, dark depth at least, maze, I don't know).

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Tabernacle might be fine, but no need to risk it.

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oooohhh artifact lands :) those should be banned of course :)

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The big issue is that it just breaks any artifact with converted mana cost 0, as per the genius of FTW.

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please quote your land rule variant that has been around and is a way better implementation :) I just made this to mimic hearthstone!

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Each turn, you may play a basic land from outside the game.

Honestly could be its own season, the format is rather deep.

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Haven't we ban it in a previous season?

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It was printed after the first season ended, and it hasn't been relevant because we have been playing variant formats the whole time.

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

DEVIANT LEGACY - PART 2 (we start with our Legacy banned list again, possibly with additional bannings)

1. Canadian Backbuild: A loss nets you 3 points and a win nets you zero. You still play optimally to win. Your deck must win both OTP and OTD against the Canadians (Snow-Covered Forest, Snow-Covered Mountain, Grizzly Bears, Balduvian Bears).

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Poor Canada, it has become the token nation of bears. You did solve the Monstrous Hound issue, simply by playing another land, so that's good, and the clock is fast enough that the "lose if your opponent does something" plans I am aware of aren't legal.

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2. Vials Galore: Each player starts the game with an Aether Vial token in play. Additional bannings: Pithing Needle, Phyrexian Revoker.

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Suppression Field? (The bigger issue is probably that the token is an artifact, so it is actually vulnerable to artifact destruction and thus the token is actually a trap to build around, which is probably why the emblem implementation was favored.)

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3. Berserker: Creatures can't block, creatures attack each turn if able, combat damage cannot be prevented, prevent all non-combat damage to players.

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No comment here, other than poor Elspeth, Knight-Errant isn't so good, but I can live without wanting to spam Elspeths for a round.

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4. Basic Bloom: You can play any basic land from outside the game at any time you could play a land. Additional bannings: White Sun's Zenith, Red Sun's Zenith, Beacon of Creation.

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Beast Within is hilariously good with Elixir of Immortality in this format (I wouldn't even think of submitting anything else, honestly), and new printings have not changed that other than to make Assassin's Trophy an option. You probably also have to look at the shuffle Eldrazi and Exploration, but Elixir loops are a more pressing concern.

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5. The Coin: When you are on the draw, you begin the game with a Lotus Petal token in play. (Funny: I saw this one posted earlier as well. Great minds... :smile: )

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Interested to see if this diverges from a vanilla Legacy format.

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6. Bleed: At the beginning of each player's upkeep, that player loses 1 life.

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Same here.

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7. WUBRG: Each player starts the game with [W] [U] [B] [R] [G] in their mana pool. This mana doesn't empty from the pool as steps end.

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Wheel and Deal is a card, one that the format will likely revolve around unless it is banned.

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8. Alpha: Only cards printed in Alpha are legal.

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Not really compatible with the Legacy banlist, because no Lotus means we are stuck with dueling 1- and 2-drops.

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9. Race for Life: Players don't lose the game for having 0 life or less or from having 10 or more poison counters. If a player has 100 life or more, he or she wins the game. If no player can reach 100 life, the game ends in a draw.

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I look forward to the pro-lifegain round.

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10. The Epic Round: All sorceries have Epic (For the rest of the game, you can't cast spells. At the beginning of each of your upkeeps, copy this spell except for its epic ability.).

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Vanilla Legacy with sorceries banned does not seem that interesting.

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11. Concise: Only cards with one-word names are legal.

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Interesting concept, but probably not in practice.

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12. Unique: Each player gets 6 additional points in this round for each card in their deck that no other player submitted this round. NB: To calculate season points, the points for the round are still divided by the number of opponents in the round, so it's possible to gain more than 6 season points this round.

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This is a potentially interesting deviation on a vanilla Legacy round, because the bonus points make slightly suboptimal choices potentially better, but we all know that, so it becomes a double metagame.

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

Please let me know what you like and don't like from my list, and what your favourite ideas are from the other suggestions, so I can get a feel for which round seem interesting to you guys.
Or just post that you like most of these and are interested in playing multiple seasons of Deviant something with the mentioned ideas.

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I like all ideas posted, could be very fun, and there are a lot of different ones!

Maybe we could go chaos: every week, at random a deviant rule from the long list of all propositions, with a banlist at random among a list as well (e.g. Modern/pauper/peasant/vintage bannathons, plus the 4CB legacy banlist, normal modern, block from 1-2 blocks at random. Thassa's oracle is always banned).

Like this every week, we get a surprise format. Some may be fully broken, most probably not at all. Both card pool and rules will vary a lot. Bonus: no need to chose or decide anything :)

I'm a little behind the times, but here are my results from round 12:

1. Asthereal (TO): Treetop Village, Golgari Rot Farm, Gathan Raiders, Basking Rootwalla
Encroach puts in work. WW

6-0

2. jhhdk: Forest, Golgari Rot Farm, Broken Fall, Ochran Assassin
Encroach was a good choice. WW

6-0

3. dte: Rugged highlands, Vitality charm, Lightning Axe, Serene remembrance
OTP: Encroach gets it done. W
OTD: Encroach is dead, and your loop defeats my terrible creatures. L

3-3

4. Wrath of Pie: Mountain, Crystal Vein, Geomancer's Gambit, Kris Mage
OTP: Encroach and then Mummy gets it done, as you can never ping Mummy without trading and you never get to blow up my land. (Wrath had this as a draw as well, but I'm pretty sure its a win for me) W
OTD: You can lead with Vein to dodge Encroach, but then I just play out Mummy and can always force a draw by attacking first. D

4-1

5. GoblinSmashmaster: Geothermal Crevice, Forest, Dark Deal, Basking Rootwalla
OTP: Encroach takes away Crevice / Dark Deal, and I'll be left with a 2 creatures, each of which defeats Rootwalla on its own. W
OTD: You can lead on Crevice, forcing me to play a creature before I lose my hand. After that though, all we can do is draw by sitting back or trading 1/1s. D

4-1

6. Reeplcheep: Swamp, Pharika’s Chosen, Cauldron Familiar, Witch’s Oven
I don't see a way for me to interact or beat your Familiar / Oven loop. LL

0-6


7. alphastryk: Swamp, Encroach, Ruthless Ripper, Festering Mummy
This is me. I went back and forth on Encroach vs Specter's Shriek, but ultimately decided land hate was better vs slow decks, and I already beat the fast poison deck without discard.

8. silkster: Forest, Mountain, Orcish Lumberjack, Acidic Slime
OTP: I can play out both my creatures before Slime takes my land. I don't see a path to anything but a draw here. D
OTD: I get my land Slimed before I can play a second creature. L

1-4

9. FTW: Island, Zulaport Duelist, Force Spike, Dismember
Encroach is bad and all your cards have text. LL

0-6

10. Tylert: Aether vial, Island, Faceless butcher, Qasali pridemage
Can't beat Vial decks with Encroach. LL

0-6

11. H: Mountain, Reckless Waif, Forge Devil, Branded Brawlers
My creatures are too much worse than yours. Also you have 3 to my 2. LL

0-6

12. maxx!: Treetop Village, Selesnya Sanctuary, Silhana Ledgewalker, Armadillo Cloak
Encroach gets it done. WW

6-0

Total: 30 points.

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Originally Posted by Reeplcheep

5-1 card blind: You get to make a 5 card hand, but your opponent gets to exile ANY card from your hand before the game begins.

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I like the suggestion for the chosen card to be non-land. There also need to be clear rules about the order in which the cards are chosen.

Most of the suggested rounds look good. I'm interested in 1, 3, 5, 6, 7, 9 the most. I think 2,4 need to be fixed. Dislike 8, and I can't really get a read on 10,11,12, so I defer to others.

1. Canadian Backbuild: Having suggested almost exactly the same Bears deck and being Canadian, I feel very seen. :)
2. Vials Galore: I think 4 creatures with a free vial is going to be REALLY complicated and messy. That's why I was going for wonkier card types and essentially trying to restrict it to 3CB+Vial.
3. Berserker: I was trying to figure out how to make creatures more relevant. This seems good.
4. Basic Bloom: With 4 cards, this feels like we'll get dozen matches that no one will have the ability and patience to solve. We would need a lot of bans. Or maybe a Rest In Peace emblem.
5. The Coin: :smile: In hindsight, I do wonder if this changes enough.
6. Bleed: I like this, or Impatience or Antagonism. I almost listed Copper Tabled in my list.
7. WUBRG: This looks wild. I think some of the more seasoned players will wreck me, but I like this.
8. Alpha: This feels underwhelming.
9. Race for Life: I love this idea. I would also add "effects that would cause a player to win or lose the game instead do nothing".
10. The Epic Round: I thought this made sorceries much stronger, but Wrath of Pie disagrees and now I'm really intrigued.
11. Concise: Wild. I have no idea.
12. Unique: My only suggestion is that you make the payoff directly in round points. With 11 players, 6 match points is 0.6 round points, so I'd just call it that.

What if for a multicolored round you had something like "players start the game with 3 basic lands of their choice, but the mana they produce can't be spent on colorless requirements"? It might need some other tweaking, and maybe it strays far enough that it's its own thing.

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Originally Posted by silkster

12. Unique: My only suggestion is that you make the payoff directly in round points. With 11 players, 6 match points is 0.6 round points, so I'd just call it that.

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Given the name of the round, I would make that 1 round point ;)
Other than that, I like it all.

I have a couple of rules questions about 4CB, maybe better if I post them now between rounds:
- Is the fact that all information is known used for ruling? e.g. Library of leng + Tortured existence, if I understand correctly is a pretty bad interaction in a normal game as you cannot reveal the card, but what about perfect info xCB?
- What happens with draw replacements? I imagine the series of "words of Xx" should be legit and quite powerful, but do not remember seeing them in the thread, so I am unsure?

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Originally Posted by silkster

2. Vials Galore: I think 4 creatures with a free vial is going to be REALLY complicated and messy. That's why I was going for wonkier card types and essentially trying to restrict it to 3CB+Vial.

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The real issue is that the token can be easily interacted with, defeating the purpose of the round.

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4. Basic Bloom: With 4 cards, this feels like we'll get dozen matches that no one will have the ability and patience to solve. We would need a lot of bans. Or maybe a Rest In Peace emblem.

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Land Rule is not as bad as you think once you ban Elixir loops (the other loops are easier to interact with, because Elixir shuffles itself, but Beast Within/Assassin's Trophy are probably still an issue).

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6. Bleed: I like this, or Impatience or Antagonism. I almost listed Copper Tabled in my list.

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Someone else has played a bit too much Backbuild, it seems.

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7. WUBRG: This looks wild. I think some of the more seasoned players will wreck me, but I like this.

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I stand corrected, Mana Short is way better than Wheel and Deal.

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10. The Epic Round: I thought this made sorceries much stronger, but Wrath of Pie disagrees and now I'm really intrigued.

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Sorceries have to be really good to compete with creatures, so the only good options are token generators. Otherwise, you just play without them at all.

alphastryk is correct that he beats me on the play, just a bit too slow to do anything about it.

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Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie

I stand corrected, Mana Short is way better than Wheel and Deal.

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Banning only Wheel and Deal only goes so far as long as Quicken is legal...

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Originally Posted by FTW

Banning only Wheel and Deal only goes so far as long as Quicken is legal...

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Round "zoo": players start with RGW in their manapool. This mana does not disappear at the end of phases and cannot pay for generic manacosts.

Removing U and B would remove most of the worst offenders, and promote the least used colors?

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Originally Posted by FTW

Banning only Wheel and Deal only goes so far as long as Quicken is legal...

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Quicken has the issue of costing a card slot and more importantly requiring the initial blue mana, so you had better be ready for it to be countered at least once, if not twice. It's not as good as you want it to be, especially when we banned most of the good mass discard.

We could simply not ban anything, because the format is going to be insanely broken anyways.

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Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie

Quicken has the issue of costing a card slot and more importantly requiring the initial blue mana, so you had better be ready for it to be countered at least once, if not twice. It's not as good as you want it to be, especially when we banned most of the good mass discard.

We could simply not ban anything, because the format is going to be insanely broken anyways.

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Quicken, Dark Deal, Veil of Summer, Nether Spirit looks pretty strong for a turn 0 deck, with Veil also protecting you from Mana Short and Wheel & Deal

If Dark Deal and Wheel of Fortune are both banned, that helps.

Mind Twist for X=3 is still dangerous, but more vulnerable to counters. Maybe you play something like Force of Will, Quicken, Mind Twist, Chancellor of the Forge so you can Twist for X=4 with FoW backup OTP, and then attempt to instant-speed Twist for X=3 OTD but risk counters, while your actual wincon is immune to counters, discard and mana denial.

Of course those types of decks lose to the simple 4x Chancellor of the Forge, which itself loses to the "fair deck" version:
Chancellor of the Forge, Chancellor of the Forge, Chancellor of the Forge, Seething Song

They can also get predated by Turn 0 prison decks like Scout's Warning, Lodestone Golem, Force of Will, Misdirection

As you can see, this quickly devolves into a turn 0 format. Why would you ever go to the main phase when you start the game with 5 mana and can take actions in the upkeep?

I'm assuming Leyline of Anticipation was already banned, otherwise this is really 3CB.

I like dte's Zoo version. Not allowing it to be used for generic costs limits the broken plays you can make. Just be ready to beat T1 Woolly Thoctar.

That is weak to the double-counter hands, along with good turn 1 flash threats. (Veil is definitely a big upgrade over Silence though.)

Shuffle Eldrazi also make that plan look rather bad, but playing a card that is likely never going to be cast is probably not worth it as anti-discard tech. On the other hand, they do enable LED loops that are resilient, probably some validity to that plan.

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Originally Posted by FTW

Quicken, Dark Deal, Veil of Summer, Nether Spirit looks pretty strong for a turn 0 deck, with Veil also protecting you from Mana Short and Wheel & Deal

If Dark Deal and Wheel of Fortune are both banned, that helps.

Mind Twist for X=3 is still dangerous, but more vulnerable to counters. Maybe you play something like Force of Will, Quicken, Mind Twist, Chancellor of the Forge so you can Twist for X=4 with FoW backup OTP, and then attempt to instant-speed Twist for X=3 OTD but risk counters, while your actual wincon is immune to counters, discard and mana denial.

Of course those types of decks lose to the simple 4x Chancellor of the Forge, which itself loses to the "fair deck" version:
Chancellor of the Forge, Chancellor of the Forge, Chancellor of the Forge, Seething Song

They can also get predated by Turn 0 prison decks like Scout's Warning, Lodestone Golem, Force of Will, Misdirection

As you can see, this quickly devolves into a turn 0 format. Why would you ever go to the main phase when you start the game with 5 mana and can take actions in the upkeep?

I'm assuming Leyline of Anticipation was already banned, otherwise this is really 3CB.

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I love how most of these just lose to a boring common from Zendikar Rising. :wink:

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

I love how most of these just lose to a boring common from Zendikar Rising. :wink:

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I guess flash creatures are a pretty strong counter strategy. It still becomes a turn 0 format, but maybe it wouldn't be that broken.

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Originally Posted by dte

Given the name of the round, I would make that 1 round point ;)
Other than that, I like it all.

I have a couple of rules questions about 4CB, maybe better if I post them now between rounds:
- Is the fact that all information is known used for ruling? e.g. Library of leng + Tortured existence, if I understand correctly is a pretty bad interaction in a normal game as you cannot reveal the card, but what about perfect info xCB?
- What happens with draw replacements? I imagine the series of "words of Xx" should be legit and quite powerful, but do not remember seeing them in the thread, so I am unsure?

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1 point seems crazy high, but it's also the final round of an intentionally crazy season, so maybe we want to open the door to insane comebacks. With a bit of luck, you could close a 6 point gap.

I asked about this a while ago with morphs. I think the conclusion is that all information is public. I think a good example is Mountain, Mountain, Goblin Piker, Lightning Bolt against Mountain, City of Traitors, Skirk Marauder, Scornful Egotist. When I asked, I was shut down by someone who said there's always a best line of play, but at least in the context of 4CB there is not. I'll play out one morph and start attacking with it. Do you bolt it or block? Depends what I did, which depends what you think I would do.

I think the added rule in 4cb is "you do not lose as a result of trying to draw from an empty library". Alternatively, it might be "whenever you would draw a card, you may choose not to", The difference here would be if I activate Words of War targeting your bear and you cast Harm's Way to redirect it to my bear. In one version, my bear dies; in the other, it lives.

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Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie

The real issue is that the [Vial] token can be easily interacted with, defeating the purpose of the round.

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Make it a vial emblem named Aether Emblem that taps. I don't think this is a problem at all.

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Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie

Land Rule is not as bad as you think once you ban Elixir loops (the other loops are easier to interact with, because Elixir shuffles itself, but Beast Within/Assassin's Trophy are probably still an issue).

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I don't remember specifics, but I remember 3 cards seeming like too many when dealing with cards with buyback, or with activated abilities that make tokens or that give +1/+1 counters. It only gets worse when you start looping those, even if you're only buying back your cards once.

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Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie

Someone else has played a bit too much Backbuild, it seems.

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Honestly, I can't even remember if I've ever played Backbuild. I think I might have played one round once. Impatience, Antagonism, and Copper Tabled are just cards that I own, two of which sat in my trade binder for years after I rare-drafted them.

I quite like Round Zoo (starting with RGW that only pays for colored costs). You can still do a bunch of crazy things

Wait, what common from Zendikar Rising beats those broken decks? Edit: I guess Living Tempest beats a bunch of them.

I might be wrong about this, but I think these are the rules our group has been using.

You have a draw step each turn. You do not lose from trying to draw from an empty library, but you also cannot replace a draw unless there is a real card there. (e.g. you cannot dredge back Stinkweed Imp or Darkblast with 0 cards in library, and Words of War does not work).

All information is public to both players, even if it would normally be concealed to the active player. For example, when there's an Emrakul reshuffle, both players know the order of the library. This matters because the "random" order has to be the worst order, but the effectiveness of the orders can depend on the opponent knowing which order you get your cards. To resolve this, we've always assumed the opponent is aware of the order of the reshuffled cards and plays against it optimally.

Asthereal could clarify.

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Originally Posted by FTW

I might be wrong about this, but I think these are the rules our group has been using.

You have a draw step each turn. You do not lose from trying to draw from an empty library, but you also cannot replace a draw unless there is a real card there. (e.g. you cannot dredge back Stinkweed Imp or Darkblast with 0 cards in library, and Words of War does not work).

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Well, in a normal magic game, dredge does not work with an empty library, but words of war does.

I think there was a round with island sanctuary, it seems more similar to words of war (but still different).

True. Maybe Words of War does work then. I can't remember if it came up in any previous rounds.

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Originally Posted by silkster

I think the added rule in 4cb is "you do not lose as a result of trying to draw from an empty library". Alternatively, it might be "whenever you would draw a card, you may choose not to", The difference here would be if I activate Words of War targeting your bear and you cast Harm's Way to redirect it to my bear. In one version, my bear dies; in the other, it lives.

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Always the first rule, because draws can be replaced. (That is the difference between Lab Maniac being banworthy and just a vanilla 2/2.)

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Make it a vial emblem named Aether Emblem that taps. I don't think this is a problem at all.

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Emblems can't tap, because tapping is a status associated with permanents. Luckily, you can just limit the activation instead.

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I don't remember specifics, but I remember 3 cards seeming like too many when dealing with cards with buyback, or with activated abilities that make tokens or that give +1/+1 counters. It only gets worse when you start looping those, even if you're only buying back your cards once.

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If you get to the point that buyback is relevant, most hands have already lost. (Elixir loops are tricky though, because a compact 2-card win condition means that it pairs with disruption and the low mana investment means it gets going quickly.)

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Honestly, I can't even remember if I've ever played Backbuild. I think I might have played one round once. Impatience, Antagonism, and Copper Tabled are just cards that I own, two of which sat in my trade binder for years after I rare-drafted them.

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Those are Backbuild staples. I will leave it as an exercise to the reader to figure out why.

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Wait, what common from Zendikar Rising beats those broken decks?

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I won't spoil it for you, it is funnier if you look it up yourself. (Trust me, it's worth it.)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dte

Well, in a normal magic game, dredge does not work with an empty library, but words of war does.
I think there was a round with island sanctuary, it seems more similar to words of war (but still different).

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Yeah, Season 6 Round 8 saw two Island Sanctuary decks which worked just fine as far as everyone was concerned and is a replacement effect the same as as Words of War. I think the reason we've never played Words is that getting to 3 mana for something that does nothing until next turn and requires more mana later on hasn't been good enough. I don't think I would have played them in the Peasant rounds had they been uncommon.

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Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie

Always the first rule, because draws can be replaced. (That is the difference between Lab Maniac being banworthy and just a vanilla 2/2.)

Emblems can't tap, because tapping is a status associated with permanents. Luckily, you can just limit the activation instead.

I won't spoil it for you, it is funnier if you look it up yourself. (Trust me, it's worth it.)

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Oh yeah, Lab Man has been replacing many draws all this time!

I don't think we ruin anything by making it tap (issues with Stasis?), but yeah, it could be "activate this ability only if you haven't activated it since your last untap step".

I saw another comment mentioning the card type and the required ability, so I did a search and saw it. I was thinking it had to be something like Mother Bear.

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Originally Posted by silkster

I asked about this a while ago with morphs. I think the conclusion is that all information is public. I think a good example is Mountain, Mountain, Goblin Piker, Lightning Bolt against Mountain, City of Traitors, Skirk Marauder, Scornful Egotist. When I asked, I was shut down by someone who said there's always a best line of play, but at least in the context of 4CB there is not. I'll play out one morph and start attacking with it. Do you bolt it or block? Depends what I did, which depends what you think I would do.

I think the added rule in 4cb is "you do not lose as a result of trying to draw from an empty library". Alternatively, it might be "whenever you would draw a card, you may choose not to", The difference here would be if I activate Words of War targeting your bear and you cast Harm's Way to redirect it to my bear. In one version, my bear dies; in the other, it lives.

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Morph
The thing with Morph is that it doesn't even matter whether 4CB makes that card known or not. If you morph one guy, the opponent still has perfect information about the other 3 cards, and can extrapolate which card got morphed. But I like to think that all information is always known, even when it's not meant to be known, because otherwise we can't play optimally. And we have to in order to make the format work.

The draw step
As far as I know, the rule is that you draw a card during the draw step, and when you can't, you simply don't lose. So cards or effects that are worded "if you would draw a card, instead of drawing so and so happens instead" won't do anything on an empty library, as you weren't about to draw a card as there isn't a card to draw. Lab Man works because it's worded slightly differently ("if you would draw a card but can't, instead you win", so {drawing a card while you can't} is the part that gets replaced, and that totally works in 4CB. If it had said "instead of losing the game, you win the game" it would not have worked, as now the losing part is what's being replaced, but that wasn't going to happen anyway, so it cannot be replaced.

The Vial round
So what do we do? Skip this idea? Or make it a token that has indestructible or shroud or something?
It has caused so much discussion already I feel like we should skip it for now.


EDIT:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by silkster

Oh yeah, Lab Man has been replacing many draws all this time!

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Explained above.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

Morph
The thing with Morph is that it doesn't even matter whether 4CB makes that card known or not. If you morph one guy, the opponent still has perfect information about the other 3 cards, and can extrapolate which card got morphed. But I like to think that all information is always known, even when it's not meant to be known, because otherwise we can't play optimally. And we have to in order to make the format work.

The draw step
As far as I know, the rule is that you draw a card during the draw step, and when you can't, you simply don't lose. So cards or effects that are worded "if you would draw a card, instead of drawing so and so happens instead" won't do anything on an empty library, as you weren't about to draw a card as there isn't a card to draw. Lab Man works because it's worded slightly differently ("if you would draw a card but can't, instead you win", so {drawing a card while you can't} is the part that gets replaced, and that totally works in 4CB. If it had said "instead of losing the game, you win the game" it would not have worked, as now the losing part is what's being replaced, but that wasn't going to happen anyway, so it cannot be replaced.

The Vial round
So what do we do? Skip this idea? Or make it a token that has indestructible or shroud or something?
It has caused so much discussion already I feel like we should skip it for now.

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I guess the answer to the Morph question is that you know what's in their hand at all times, which is the new information to me. I didn't know it worked that way, but that's just me.

You can definitely use Words of War with an empty library in regular Magic. Words of War doesn't care or even know whether your attempt to draw a card was going to be successful. And Lab Man says "If you would draw a card while your library has no cards in it," which is the same as "if you would draw a card" but with an extra condition. There's no way to make Lab Man work and not make Words of War also work. This is also consistent with Island Sanctuary.

The "problem" with Vial and the reason for so much discussion is that there are so many easy solutions. I honestly can't tell what's wrong with allowing and emblem to tap, but it doesn't matter because I think we're all agreed on:

• You start the game with a Special Vial emblem with "At the beginning of your upkeep, you may put a charge counter on Special Vial." and ":0: You may put a creature card from your hand onto the battlefield with cmc equal to the number of charge counters on Special Vial. Activate this ability only if you have not activated it since your last untap step."

Emblems are not permanents, so they cannot be tapped/untapped. Pretty simple, actually.

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Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie

Emblems are not permanents, so they cannot be tapped/untapped. Pretty simple, actually.

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But what if we just let them? Would there be confusion? Does something else break? We change all sorts of rules here. That's sort of the point.

May I take your no-comment on my proposed once-per-turn-cycle non-tapping vial to mean that it's agreeable to you? Which would mean that there's no bottleneck and any continuation of this conversation is just to get it into my thick skull why it would be a problem to let an emblem have a tapped status. :laugh: I really don't see it.

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Originally Posted by silkster

But what if we just let them? Would there be confusion? Does something else break? We change all sorts of rules here. That's sort of the point.

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As a precedent, there was some confusion and even heated arguments (cannot remember nor see why) when enchantment could first be tapped (I think with Tempest), but it changed literally nothing, or at least I cannot remember anything it did change.

I am waiting for the day Wizards decides to print

2UUU - Time Twist
Instant
Tap target player
(Tapped players cannot attack or block with creatures, play lands, or cast non-instant spells without flash. Players untap during their untap step.)

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Originally Posted by FTW

I am waiting for the day Wizards decides to print

2UUU - Time Twist
Instant
Tap target player
(Tapped players cannot attack or block with creatures, play lands, or cast non-instant spells without flash. Players untap during their untap step.)

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That’s cutting pretty hard into whites colour pie. That’s essentially an Orin’s chant.

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Originally Posted by silkster

But what if we just let them? Would there be confusion? Does something else break? We change all sorts of rules here. That's sort of the point.

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Comp Rules says no:

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110.5. A permanent’s status is its physical state. There are four status categories, each of which has two
possible values: tapped/untapped, flipped/unflipped, face up/face down, and phased in/phased out.
Each permanent always has one of these values for each of these categories.
110.5a Status is not a characteristic, though it may affect a permanent’s characteristics.
110.5b Permanents enter the battlefield untapped, unflipped, face up, and phased in unless a spell or
ability says otherwise.
110.5c A permanent retains its status until a spell, ability, or turn-based action changes it, even if
that status is not relevant to it.
Example: Dimir Doppelganger says “{1}{U}{B}: Exile target creature card from a
graveyard. Dimir Doppelganger becomes a copy of that card and gains this ability.” It
becomes a copy of Jushi Apprentice, a flip card. Through use of Jushi Apprentice’s
ability, this creature flips, making it a copy of Tomoya the Revealer with the Dimir
Doppelganger ability. If this permanent then becomes a copy of Runeclaw Bear, it will
retain its flipped status even though that has no relevance to Runeclaw Bear. If its copy
ability is activated again, this time targeting a Nezumi Shortfang card (another flip
card), this permanent’s flipped status means it will have the characteristics of
Stabwhisker the Odious (the flipped version of Nezumi Shortfang) with the Dimir
Doppelganger ability.
110.5d Only permanents have status. Cards not on the battlefield do not. Although an exiled card
may be face down, this has no correlation to the face-down status of a permanent. Similarly,
cards not on the battlefield are neither tapped nor untapped, regardless of their physical state.

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tl;dr version: "Tap this emblem" is an unpayable cost, because emblems can't have status.

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Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie

Comp Rules says no:

tl;dr version: "Tap this emblem" is an unpayable cost, because emblems can't have status.

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Emblem: "At the begining of your upkeep you can choose to put a vial token on this emblem. 0: You may put a creature with a cmc equal to or lesser than the number of vial tokens on this emblem into play. play this ability only if you haven't played it since your last upkeep"
We don't care about rules, we just use this and no one can interact with the emblem or the tokens on the emblem at all.

Not all results are in, but I looked at most of the games, and I think the current standing should be correct.
So here's the standings for the final round:

1. Reeplcheep: 42 - 3,8
2. silkster: 41 - 3,7
3. FTW: 38 - 3,5
3. maxx!: 38 - 3,5
5. dte: 34 - 3,1
6. Tylert: 30 - 2,7
7. GoblinSmashmaster: 29 - 2,6
8. Wrath of Pie: 28 - 2,5
8. alphastryk: 28 - 2,5
10. Asthereal (TO): 27 - 2,5
11. H: 26 - 2,4
12. jhhdk: 10 - 0,9

Which totally irrelevantly leads to these bannings:
Acidic Slime
Cauldron Familiar
Dismember
Force Spike
Orcish Lumberjack
Pharika’s Chosen
Witch’s Oven
Zulaport Duelist

But more importantly, this leads to these final standings for the season:
1. silkster: 48,5 - Congrats to silk for winning this season!!
2. dte: 48,2
3. maxx!: 40,7
4. FTW: 39,8
5. Asthereal (TO): 31,1
6. alphastryk: 30,4
7. GoblinSmashmaster: 30,2
8. Wrath of Pie: 29,4
9. Reeplcheep: 28,1
10. Tylert: 28
11. H: 23,4
12. jhhdk: 5,8
13. Karshtakavaar: 2,6

I have to say this was the tightest race we've had so far. It's been close before, but not this close for this long a time. Every round silk and dte kept taking the top spot from eachother, and I feel like our arbitrary 12 round finish line robbed them from many more oportunities to keep clawing at eachother. Behind our two clearly strongest for the season, maxx! and FTW fought for third place, which maxx! ended up grabbing by again a close margin. I seem to be leading the rest of the pack.

During the coming week I'll be building the next season, so stay tuned!

Eighth place is apparently my new residence of choice.

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Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie

Eighth place is apparently my new residence of choice.

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I seem to remember you winning the previous season of Deviant Legacy, so I have high hopes for you in the next one. :wink:

Already working on Canadian Backbuild. Hopefully the curse of the commons doesn't follow me.

Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, and Happy New Year everyone.

I was away from the boards for holiday stuff, but it looks like my results for the last round were already calculated. The only one that I wasn't quite sure about was me vs Asthereal, since he can pump Rootwalla to make combat math hard. There are a lot of lines and I didn't have time to explore them all. 6-0 me might be right, but if anybody feels like really digging deep into that matchup, feel free.

Deviant Legacy looks fun. When should we start?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

I have to say this was the tightest race we've had so far. It's been close before, but not this close for this long a time. Every round silk and dte kept taking the top spot from eachother, and I feel like our arbitrary 12 round finish line robbed them from many more oportunities to keep clawing at eachother. Behind our two clearly strongest for the season, maxx! and FTW fought for third place, which maxx! ended up grabbing by again a close margin. I seem to be leading the rest of the pack.

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Happy New Year, everyone! That was a crazy season, with tight races for first, third, and fifth. I feel kind of relieved that it's over. I was curious to see the information visualized, so I put it into graphical form graphical form here. It was a bit hard to see, so I removed the two latecomers (for whom a running total makes little sense) and translated the scores down so that they average to zero. I find the resulting graph easier to read. It really was back and forth for a while there. After round 4, there was only one round where we didn't trade top spot.

Okay guys, apologies for the delay, but I had less time than expected and there are too many ideas.
I have made a selection and came to 30 cool ideas for Deviant rounds that should be interesting enough, based on your suggestions and feedback.
So I suggest we do two seasons of 15 rounds. Everybody cool with that?

Here's what I have in mind:

Season 9 - Deviant Legacy, part 2:
(We start with the Legacy banned list. There may be additional bannings each round.)

1. Canadian Backbuild: A loss nets you 3 points and a win nets you zero. You still play optimally to win. Your deck must win both OTP and OTD against the Canadians (Snow-Covered Forest, Snow-Covered Mountain, Grizzly Bears, Balduvian Bears).
2. Dream Halls: Rather than pay the mana cost for a spell, its controller may discard a card that shares a color with that spell.
Additional banning: Progenitus
3. Berserker: Creatures can't block, creatures attack each turn if able, combat damage cannot be prevented, prevent all non-combat damage to players.
4. Basic Bloom: You can play any basic land from outside the game at any time you could play a land. Additional bannings: White Sun's Zenith, Red Sun's Zenith, Beacon of Creation.
5. The Coin: When you are on the draw, you begin the game with a Lotus Petal artifact token in play. (Funny: I saw this one posted earlier as well. Great minds... )
6. Impatience: At the beginning of each player’s end step, if that player didn’t cast a spell this turn, Impatience deals 2 damage to that player.
7. Bleed: At the beginning of each player's upkeep, that player loses 1 life.
8. WUBRG: Each player starts the game with [W] [U] [B] [R] [G] in their mana pool. This mana doesn't empty from the pool as steps end.
9. Supersize: All creatures get +3/+3.
10. Race for Life: Players don't lose the game for having 0 life or less or from having 10 or more poison counters. If a player has 100 life or more, he or she wins the game. If no player can reach 100 life, the game ends in a draw.
11. Turtle Up: Until the start of the 6th turn: spells can't be countered, permanents have hexproof and indistructible, cards in graveyards have hexproof and players have hexproof. Damage does not cause loss of life, and players can't win or lose that game. Players may choose to ignore effects controlled by an opponent that would cause a permanent they control or card in their hand to change zones.
12. Bouncy castle: Each player starts the game with a Cloudstone Curio artifact token in play.
13. The Epic Round: All sorceries have Epic (For the rest of the game, you can't cast spells. At the beginning of each of your upkeeps, copy this spell except for its epic ability.).
14. Concise: Only cards with one-word names are legal.
15. Unique: Each player gets 1 additional season point in this round for each card in their deck that no other player submitted this round.


Season 10 - Deviant Legacy, part 3:
(Still starting with the Legacy banned list. There may be additional bannings each round.)

(Order yet to be determined. I have to think about that.)
- Fateful Hour: Players start at 5 life. Additonal banning: Chancellor of the Dross
- Persistence: All creatures have persistence. Effects that prevent counters being placed on creatures don't cause creatures to fail to return to play when their persistence ability resolves.
- Sudden Death: After 10 turns (from both players), the player with the highest life total wins the game.
- Magical Metal: When an artifact enters the battlefield, it's controller may add one mana of the color of his or her choice to their mana pool. Additional banning: Lion's Eye Diamond
- The Long Haul: Players start at 100 life. PS. Need to figure out bannings.
- Duplicity: Whenever a nontoken creature enters the battlefield, its controller creates a token that’s a copy of that creature.
- Sphere of Resistance: Spells cost one additional generic mana to cast.
- Vials Galore: Each player starts the game with an Aether Vial emblem in play that has "During your upkeep, you may put a Vial counter on this emblem." and has "(0): Put a creature from your hand with converted mana cost equal to the number of Vial counters on this emblem onto the battlefield. You can use this ability only once per turn, and then not anymore until your next turn.". Additional banning: Suppression Field
- Pillow Fight: Creatures have indestructible.
- Cornucopia: Each deck must contain non-land cards with at least 3 different colored mana symbols. Hybrid mana counts for 2.
- Go Big Or Go Home: All non-land cards in your deck must have a CMC 3 or greater.
- Antagonism: At the beginning of each player’s end step, that player loses 2 life unless one of their opponents lost life that turn.
- Peacekeeper: Creatures can't attack.
- The Wheel: If a card would be put into a player's graveyard from anywhere, instead that card is put on the bottom of that player's library.
- Phyrexian mana: All colored mana symbols in costs can also be paid with 2 life.


Please let me know if you think we need additional bannings for season 9 (and 10, if you have time to check them out).
Also, please let me know what you think in general. I really like these, but it's not fully set in stone yet.


(PS. I'm taking a few more days and expect to open round one next Friday, with our deadline on Wednesday morning. But I'll let you guys know.)

My only remark would be that some rounds are not restricted enough and some deck would win without any constraints forcing players to play around it.
For example, city of traitors, lotus petal, laboratory maniac, mishra's bauble would probably be too strong and again the spirit of "Berserker", "Race for Life", "Turtle Up", etc...
I don't know how to handle such situation without an extensive banlist because if not, it feels like traditionnal legacy 4CB.
So addional bannings ARE required :)