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@Draw: I ran a draw package of:
3 Brainstorm
3 SDT
3 Standstill
2 FOF
And it was just amazing all day. I'm considering going back to cunning wish for...certain circumstances which would just be in addition to that package. I seriously urge everyone to try this package out.
@Rockout: I hate you for being able to beat 43-land.dec. I tried soooo hard and failed.
its all about 6 maindeck stp effects rofl. .. .. . all of them...
also not going to say it but remember how I said survival has 0 outs to survival other then bird'sing you to death. . . I'm suprised he just scooped because usually thats there only path once you resolve it game 1. game 2 is a bit clunkier but its still basicly the same approach..
o and I told you so. :)
@rsaunder: to beat 43 lands, I run 4 EE's and the rest of my paths from my sb, just make sure you don't get shut out of the game too early by their ports before you'ved amassed some mana and it should be fine
All you need to do g1 is see wish or crucible to win. G2 I got so unbelievably lucky drawing every stp effect I had and still almost losing. I think I'm 3-1 all time against 43land in tourney. My 1 lost is what knocked me out of contention for day 2 at GP chicago (I beat him game 1 with curcible lock :eek: .) Game 3 I let a mage on loam die to tabernacle to cast crucible and he drew his 2nd and final ancient grudge to beat me with the snare in my hand for it while getting my mana base raped.Quote:
Originally Posted by rsaunder
Oh, t1 ee @ 1 is usually good enough to get you there g1 as well, read the post above mine.
and like rockout explained, crucible helps a lot too (forgot about that) since you can bring back your factories to block their factories or nantuko's. Shutting them out with wastelock doesn't always work though since they have loam so i prefer to just to build my manabase and play powerful spells. In the end, you win with a cycled decree and stp effects to get rid of their win conditions since maze of ith can't do much against 5 or 6 soldier tokens all at the same time. The worst challenge for me though is getting burned down by barbarian ring but you can easily overcome that if you're playing wishstill with pulse of the fields.
43 land is irrelevant. It's so often not played and if so it's few in numbers.
Let's bring up some lists and satisfy testing needs. I'll post a couple of lists in a bit when im done with my paper or in a few days with some explanations and invites for testing etc.
Also loam. Whats happening with aggro loam. Survival. etc. Get some of the tier 2 decks out of the way and off the board.
So... I have a slightly less conventional list... I still don't know if this is an optional design, but it seems interesting:
lands//22
3 mutavault
2 faerie conclave
3 polluted delta
4 flooded strand
4 tundra
2 underground sea
1 scrubland
1 plains
2 island
creatures//4
4 spellstutter sprite
spells//34
2 moat
4 brainstorm
4 sensei's divining top
4 force of will
4 standstill
4 swords to plowshares
2 vindicate
3 bitterblossom
4 counterbalance
2 ajani goldmane
1 elspeth, knight errant
sideboard//
3 enlightened tutor
4 relic of progenitus
2 engineered plague
2 engineered explosives
2 ajani goldmane
1 pithing needle
1 elspeth, knight errant
The concept is simple... You play just like normal landstill, stalling the board with continuous effects via bitterblossom and planeswalkers.
But, you can also change gears pretty nicely with the pump abilities of both walkers, as well as the added permission that the sprites provide the deck, much like other lists use snare to complement their counter suit.
I chose vindicate because unlike other landstill builds, we actually have plenty of permanents that stick around, so vindicate as a 1 sided answer to permanents works a little better IMO.
The build has a few high cc cards, but it runs a good amount of cantrips and may also wish to incorperate some number of ponders in the future.
Anyone have any thoughts?
Could a list like this have merit?
needs more lands?
I think freakaccident's list doesn't rely on 4 drops as much so 22 is enough vs the usual 23. He doesn't run decrees which make our lists very mana intensive and uses bitterblossom instead+4 sensei's to filter into lands if need be. looks very interesting
My only concern from a first glance is how many nonbasics you run. You should be able to get by with 5 or 6 duals. I would suggest adding the swamp to insure you can play your vindicates against moons, crucibles, critters... it seems solid though.
Cut the plagues though. With so many lords, they're not what they used to be. I suggest ghostly prison and/or (preferably And) propaganda. They're more versitile and give you a better game against agro than plague. Having both means echoing truth/meddling mage (either played any more?) doesn't get them all.
Rofl. Plague is the nuts dude. . . Still...
Prop is easily blasted and answered to all the other answers that engineered is dealt with, whereas ep actually removes, kills threats.
Prison is meh, neither one of the 2 protect your elspeth.
All in all Plague is just better in most ways.
oh and what the crap is too many lords? are you sliver infested?
I don't think so. Hes more reliant on colors and he is justifying a more conditional gameplan. Also he hasn't made up his mind on wether he's casting bb cb or ss t2 which has got to be funny when it turns out that the best threat he plays get hammered with a daze/ spell snare/ spell pierce. All together I feel like the tempo decks rape him in the tempo game and the control decks if they play him will lose but don't really care because they have a 50/50 shot at locking him out with better control or wastelock.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteshepherdman
Folk and elves--I don't have the privilege of playing against goblins--both have three quality creatures that say "other elves get +1/+1" on them. This makes up, say, a quarter of their creature base.Quote:
Originally Posted by mossivo1986
Are you playing in a time loop?! Has your meta not met Gobs, Folk, or Elves past M10? All of them play at least 4 lords to null your plagues. Notice how that lackey that used to die is still on the field? Yeah, Plagues are good.... Against D&T (Human) and that's it. The other tribal decks are almost all lords or x/2's.Quote:
Originally Posted by mossivo1986
Prop can be blasted. Chances are they they'll bring them in, if they're red. But, if their aiming at that at least you can try and counter the blast (I'll admit you have to have it in hand for that strategy to work), but if that's your afraid of play all prisons.
Also, I'm aware it doesn't protect Elspeth. She's too slow for Gobs, Folk, or Elves anyway. Yeah she's a win condition but so are your man lands (especially with Crucible) and they can block the 1 or 2 of whatever's attacking and usually kill it (Must have 2+ lords to have anything survive a pumped factory).
Additionally, it makes things like waste or Port that much worse. Tap my land? OK! that meant you didn't attack with 1 or 2 dudes. I'd rather have to time to find the answer than hope that the lord doesn't A) get vialed in or B) Get cast while I'm without counter (GO Plague!).
[Snip. Verbal warning for flame-baiting. Whether I agree with you or not, don't. - Bardo]
Ok. I'll keep it Kosher.
Hahahaha. Loves me some well placed typos.Quote:
Originally Posted by damionblackgear
lol i love how our thread is always the one getting warnings for arguments. Mossivo vs Hanni, Mossivo v Damion and Lost...
However, moss is right in this argument about the fact that engineered plague is amazing against any tribal deck and even against non-LED dredge. Your going to side in spot removal besides E. plague against decks like elves and what you do is remove their lords and drop E. plague as soon as possible to seal the game. Afterwards, its just smooth sailing
What can I say, I'm the thread bullshit caller? :tongue: I guess I should get an award.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteshepherdman
The amount of knowledge i've gained by arguing in this thread is probably 10x that of others by sitting here reading and not posting.
FYI if any of you care to be skeptical of me check out the T.C.S. thread (Tezzeret Stax Combo). I need help with it as I'm not at all sold on a great model. Needs lots of help and the thread is in need of a good flame or list or something.
I'm sorry it's taken me so long to reply to you guys, my Internet is out of commission at home unfortunately.
Humility was amazing! Easily the MVP of the day. I used to not play it at all, but the Friday before the event I decided to try it out. I ended up winning every game it hit the table. I would love to fit a second one in the main but I don't really know what to cut for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reagens
Ruins was kind of awful to be honest, I'm probably going to cut it. It was most useful as a wasteland that only hits other Academy Ruins. I only used it a couple times, drawing new cards almost always seemed better than getting something from my GY back. I'm debating changing it to the fourth Factory or just having another open slot (maybe Humility number 2 or a Path to Exile)
No plague was because I don't really like the card. It has a somewhat narrow application and we should already have a decent match-up against people trying to kill us with small dudes. Granted, I only played one tribal deck (Merfolk) and I did lose to it. In a tribal heavy meta I could see the argument, but it seemed better to use the SB to fight the control mirror and combo.
That brings us to Duress, the theory was that it comes in for the Mirror/Planeswalker Control, Combo decks, and random Burn. It acts as a proactive counterspell in the Combo/Burn matchups, and in the control mirror it can give you invaluable information about when it's safe to be aggressive and go for the win as well as stripping their answers.
It did it's job against combo when I played it. First turn taking his LED, second turn dropping Meddling Mage on the 2 Rite of Flames I now knew he had in hand. Unfortunately I wasn't able to test it much in the other match ups. Meddling Mage at 3 seemed to work ok, I may have just gotten lucky and always saw one when I needed it, but the draw package is pretty good.
The manabase was fine pre-Zendikar, I don't think Arid Mesa is really needed, plus it can't find an Island. I didn't have any color problems.
The lone Ajani was for Zoo/Burn and Combo. It should probably be a 2 of or a zero of, but I didn't know what to cut so I kept the miser's 1.
2 in the T8 would have been since. Landstill is definitely a powerhouse. Wasteland was good, it definitely helped mana screw some opponents early and wastelock is still good even with the new fetches. Ruins on the other hand was kind of bad, and as I said before will probably be cut in the future.Quote:
Originally Posted by rsaunder
I used to run Vindicate main deck, but I really only wanted it in some matchups. Namely Stax/Stompy decks that run lock peices, and anything playing Planeswalkers. Pulling them from the Main made room for Tops and Humility, which seems generally better.
Thanks for the congrats guys, I promised a report, and it'll hopefully be up soon.
Edit: report is up: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=15554
Quote:
Originally Posted by mossivo1986
I honestly dont see how running a lower curve hurts the deck's gameplan at all... I have not been having mana issues with the deck with only 3 lands that dont produce colored mana...
Wastelock is a bitch for anything with a higher curve... Mana denial would hurt a helluva lot more if i added more higj cc spells (i already feel like im running too much)... The additives of both counterbalance and bitterblossom both help the control mu immensely (have you ever had to just deal with the tolens when the opponent wont let you destroy the blossom?) its a pain im the ass for normal control... Especially if they are trying to keep walkers around...
This list was designed to abuse moat, unless nobody noticed... All but 3 of my threats fly, which allows one sided shenanigans.
Props on the Moat+Bitterblossom interaction =D i like it, although could bitterblossom become a liability late game? The counter-suite does seem a little light, but if you get cb to land i think you'd have an easy time shutting them out. Moat atm though is also a liability since zoo is liking quasali pridemage. May i suggest -1 standstill, -1 brainstorm +2 spell snare
more land should be in the deck because you want to cast moat? 22 land is harsh enough on landstill running 17 1 drops which you arn't doing. I suggest more land because 1 or two land doesn't kill your concept but it does assure your going to hit everything you want to cast. Occasionally flooding isnt a bad thing either especially when you play against anti fetch dual strategies :)Quote:
Originally Posted by thefreakaccident
Since I acquired a playset of Bitterblossoms it's nothing but disappointment. You drop it, it does nothing. The next turn you lose 1 life and you get a token. This token does nothing, because it still has summoning sickness. And they're really bad chump-blockers since they cost you 1 life each: so you want to go aggro with them. Going aggro with Landstill? Sounds like a bad plan to me. I'm going to call it: Bitterblossom is crap. I've tried it in Landstill, I've tried it in Tempo Faeries. Well, I can tell you, there's nothing tempo about Bitterblossom. And for Landstill: you don't want to set a clock on yourself. That's just stupid, really.
Well I guess I can't argue with it being bad? I mean I went over it with a couple of different people and it was cut each time so...... yeah gg no re
It's actually quite decent in LS featuring 2 Polymorph (+1x Mystical Tutor) and Progenitus. :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeggi
(also Mutavaults PLUS Factories).
I've simply not found the time to test it thoroughly.
The most awful thing in Polymorph is that it targets, which turns it into no-no. I've tried, it utterly failed. If you run blossom, you have to squeeze a jitte somewhere. I just can't imagine the why you wouldn't run jitte along the blossom.
Squeezing a Jitte in Landstill seems silly. Basically you have to make an entire new deck with Standstills, Bitterblossoms, Jitte and Countertop. It won't be Landstill and I'm not sure if it would be any good. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
NOT saying that Bitterblossom should work in Landstill, but if it does, it's next to Ajani( probably Goldmane for the manabase.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeggi
Benie
Let's just clear this up. Bitterblossom works in Landstill, but it still sucks in Landstill. Why? Because it's a permanent that doesn't really support Landstill's game plan of function. It makes chumb blockers? Really, is that even good enough to warrant it's inclusion? It doesn't really establish board control, and it's susceptible to Qasali Pridemage, which is huge right now.
Bitterblossom is also susceptible to opposing Spell Snares and dies to your own EE for 2.
Bitterblossom being a Tribal Enchantment usually means that if it gets killed it at least gives your opponent's Tarmogoyf +1/+1, often +2/+2. But I guess that's the least of your worries :wink:
What are we running blossom for? We already have Elspeth :)
Yeah, it's called Countertop Faeries. It's not an awful deck, has it's own thread in established decks, but it's def. not Landstill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeggi
It's still awfully underdeveloped...Quote:
Originally Posted by RogueMTG
It's not bad, but it's not great either compared to UGW CounterTop.
Landstill is the Legacy deck of choice of the Dutch Worlds-team :D
link?
The last few posts in this thread do not belong in the DTB.
Warnings to Mossivo and Ectoplasm for spamming this forum.
See our Site Rules on this topic.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...28&postcount=6
I'll redeem myself by posting the decklist :D
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
4 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Island
2 Plains
3 Wasteland
4 Brainstorm
3 Standstill
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Wrath of God
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Elspeth
2 Jace
2 Cunning Wish
1 Moat
1 Decree of Justice
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Extirpate
3 Path to Exile
1 Return to Dust
1 Pulse of the Fields
3 Engineered Plague
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Hydroblast
1 ... forgot ...
What immediately jumps at me is the cut of eternal dragon and the high amount of planeswalkers, which seems like a decent pick in a meta filled with control.
I disagree. Planeswalker are bombs in whichever meta, new sets didn't affect the difficulty for any deck to get rid of them (unless someone wants to play mold shambler...and vampire hexmage is used for the combo, so no worry for our strong allies). I'd play 7 if I had room... (I only play 6 atm :smile: )Quote:
What immediately jumps at me is the cut of eternal dragon and the high amount of planeswalkers, which seems like a decent pick in a meta filled with control.
A lot of planeswalkers over our usual 2-3 decrees seems good
But, imagine this scenario:
You're playing the mirror and you both have a ton of lands in play and he has nothing and you cast elspeth, then cast standstill.
So you think this game is in the bag,
until he cycles for 5 soldier tokens, deals with elspeth and starts attacking your life for 3 or 4 a turn. While Decree is great for giving you time in an aggro match, I think decree is even better in a control game where all of a sudden you have multiple threats and they arn't able to deal with it quickly. You get that surprise factor, similar to playing standstill early game and the opponent playing vendillion clique in response..
But Landstill mirrors are still quite rare, and isn't much of a concern right now; especially if most players use Landstill as a metagame deck. The best tools to have for Landstill is still uncountably DoJs and Wasteland, but it's not something for people to worry about. Especially if they already pack 3 Wastelands and 3 DoJs. Playskill and experience will win this match up anyway. This is why most skilled Landstill players back in the era of Vial Goblins and Landstill kept Standstills in mirrors, because it forces their opponents to play different when dropped. Especially when you have experience. While those inexperienced Landstill players boarded in Deep Analysis, the better ones kept Standstills in and overran the lesser players.
But back to the main point. Planeswalkers are really fucking good, but having DoJs can still a lot of the time be better. The only Planeswalker I will ever use are Elspeth, and occasionally Ajani Goldmane in the SB. Elspeth is really fucking good on her own, but you like playing with bombs, just cram in an extra copy or two. DoJ, however, forces bad players to play badly. I've stolen too many games off a hardcasted DoJ for 2+ Angel tokens, or bought time by cycling them to create 1-3 turn fogs until I can maintain my mana and card advantage so that I can turn the game around. A play, which many would consider cute, but isn't fucking cute at all, is cycling DoJ as blockers when holding WoG in hand, then proceed to cast FoF. Regardless of whether they know you have WoG in your hand or not, they will make piles where they try and keep you away from removal; especially with WoG in the mix. Let's say you're facing down a Ncatl and a Goyf. Your FoF pile reveals
Island
Island
Swords
EE
Standstill
You have just previously cycled DoJ for 3 the previous turn, and holding WoG in hand. You blocked a Nactl and a Goyf came into play, and then this turn, you traded both your soldier tokens to Goyf and Nactl. Chances are they think you're desperate to stay alive, seeing as you just cycled DoJ the previous turns, you might be trying to buy time for WoG or two removal spells, or just removal of any kind. They aren't going to give you both of those removal spells. Guess what? That's good. You can pick between piles that would like something like this:
Standstill
EE
Island
Island
Swords
And any of those piles would be beneficial for you depending on other cards in your hand, but taking a pile with just two removal spells seems a little pointless, as all they can do is buy time, and not speed up your development. Hitting 8 lands is the sweet spot for you, and that pile isn't going to do that for you. In this case, I would just take Standstill and EE, cast WoG, and drop Standstill. Now you have a removal spell, and more than likely to draw into more control elements and that extra land you need to hit 8.
Now if experienced Zoo players catch that from experience against you, shift your play. Cast FoF in scenarios like the one above, and they might even split it as
EE
Swords
Standstill
Island
Island
Congratz. You have stayed alive. This is the beauty of human psychology and your personal vigilance. Also, when you are holding WoG and they make this pile, when your opponent shifts gears against you, again, you can just take Standstill and Islands. You have not only taken more control of the game, you have turned it into a fucking lock. Let's be honest though. A WoG isn't going to take that much control of the game, which is why a lot of players don't like it. It isn't get you control completely, and never will. Why do you think we make so many 1-for-1 trades with WoG? Exactly, it can't contain the opponents. Players know how to play against you, and you can only use play skill and clever manipulation to swing the game in your favor.
I agree with high amounts of Planeswalkers. I'm up to running a 3/2/1 Jace/Elspeth/Ajani split with no regrets.
This is because of the Dutch's automatic love of anything that costs :2::w::w:. Don't be surprised to see Cavalry Master become the next Elspeth/Humility/Moat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ectoplasm