It was not my intention to sound so harsh; I also see why you don't want to run Cryptic Command.
But my point is that I think that a draw-engine is a very important part of the deck considering that this is a blue control deck.
Printable View
It was not my intention to sound so harsh; I also see why you don't want to run Cryptic Command.
But my point is that I think that a draw-engine is a very important part of the deck considering that this is a blue control deck.
I didn't take it as harsh, I just took it as we have different opinions and we stated the same thing over and over again so I felt it wasn't going any where.
To bring the discussion forth a bit I have several questions:
How many Jaces?
How about sweepers? Ratchet Bomb/Powder Keg or Disk/Oblivion Stone or splashing for EE?
(But with EE this deck is not 100% MUC, although it's just a tiny splash)
How many sweepers? 3? 2? more than 3? or no sweepers at all?
What is the best draw-engine? How many slots should we dedicate to the draw-engine (excluding Jace TMS)?
I personally like 3 jace, but I can see why people only want 2. 2-3 fof, and maybe impulse or ponder to smooth out draws..if you run fetch lands I guess you can run brainstorm, but i don't really like that personally. for sweepers, keg is prolly the best even though I don't really like them. If you feel that they are needed that much I would run 3-4 keg. Maybe 1-3 ostone. Not really sure about those cards since I find them pretty bad. I know a lot of people who say the splash version is better for e.e.
What I don't like about Disk / Oblivion Stone is that I kind of put all my eggs into one basket, because they cost a whole lot of 4 mana: Krosan grip / Qasali Pridemage and I have a big problem.
Ratchet Bomb / Powder Keg, on the other hand, is always a solid play, not amazing but it gets the job done thanks to other cards that give MUC a strong lategame despite not running a full-sweeper.
Yea, but keg and bomb have that problem as well. I think they are all very slow and don't really like any of them. Keg might be the best one even though I hate it. Not sure how to solve that problem.
1. certainly, it depends on your list, but i'm of the school of thought that says no jaces. unless your list has a significant amount of creatures to protect jace, i think he's too hard to protect, as we'd burn through a lot of our hand trying to keep him alive. as i said in an earlier post (but don't feel like quoting) i'd rather have a morphling that can wall attackers than a jace that eats them to the face. short answer, zero jace.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Buddha
2. originally, my list ran four powder kegs, but i recently dropped it to three. as for which to run, i think it also, depends on the list. keg is usually a turn faster than bomb, so i give it the edge on that alone, but it doesn't take enchantments/plainswalkers with it when it pops. i think it's is really a plus for the MUC player though, because depending on what your board looks like, keg leaves behind your back to basics, propagandas and jaces, while wiping the enemy board. if you're running less of these cards, you might want to run bombs, as they'll hit the opponent a lot hard. as far as disk is concerned, i think it's too slow to really be considered at all. the stone is even slower, and really pretty bad at that. also, i think EE is a separate beast in itself, as it comes down to a matter of whether you're willing to splash or not. if you are, it's probably the better choice, but still a little risky. if you're not splashing, it's garbage. regardless of what you're choice is, i say three/four is the right amount, probably leaning towards four. short answer, three or four powder kegs.
3. the draw engine question is still one i'm working on. i'm not sure what the correct number of card slots is, but i'm generally of the opinion that there's no such thing as too much draw, and i think a lot of the more recent decklist that have been popping up have far, far too little. as a point of reference, my current list runs three fact or fictions, three impulses, and four brainstorms. at various points in my lists lifetime there have been anywhere from eight to twelve card slots dedicated to strictly draw spells and i really think that anything less than eight is a huge mistake.
as far as which cards formulate the best engine, that's another can of worms completely. i think it's pretty much universally accepted that fact or fiction is pretty solid, and almost mandatory in a mono blue decklist, and for hella good reason. i think decks that run two are mistaken, and three or four is the number you should always be running. the two casting cost draw spell is the one that always throws me for a loop. i tend to lean towards impulse/accumulated knowledge, but if you want more opinions on that debate, just scroll up. most of the last two pages of this thread have been dedicated to those choices. also, i'm of the mindset that brainstorm is extremely powerful, even in a list without fetch lands, thanks to it's interactions with fact or fiction, impulse, predict, and other cards in that vein. short answer, three or four fact or fiction, and six to eight anything else.
EDIT: sensei's divining top probably isn't a very bad choice either, especially if you don't want to run brainstorm but are still looking for a one drop draw spell. sure, it doesn't work quite the same, but there are probably some arguments to be made here. my only argument against it, is that it opens you up to more hate, giving the opponent more targets for their krosan grips and all else, but i suppose if you spin the top even twice, it's already done more than a single brainstorm has (sort of). ultimately, i don't think i'd ever run them myself, but i feel like they'd mesh with a lot of play styles rather nicely. (i'd also hate to see the counter-top engine worked into our MUC lists, as i think it's becomes a very different deck if that's the case)
also, to predict and answer your next question:
4. i think three beaters is probably the right number, regardless of which ones you're running. most games, you're not going to want an expensive creature in your opening hand, so four seems like it might be a little too much, and two seems far too few. you also don't want to end up in a situation, if you're running impulse, where your forced to bottom deck a beater because you really need to dig for a force of will. i think three is the best number, and further, i think morphling's still/always has been the best choice. (on a side note, when i lay my deck out on a table, i always group my shackles with my creatures, rather than my other permanents.) short answer, three beaters.
--------
i guess this is also a pretty good spot to post my updated decklist as well...
maindeck:
24 islands
2 morphling
1 rainbow efreet
3 vedalkan shackles
4 force of will
4 counterspell
3 force spike (will almost definitely become mental misstep.)
3 back to basics
3 propaganda
3 powder keg
3 fact or fiction
3 impulse
4 brainstorm
sideboard:
2 pithing needle
1 back to basics
4 relic of progenitus
4 mindbreak trap (i've been toying with the idea of chalice of the void)
4 hydroblast
--------
also, i remember someone hating on rainbow efreet many posts ago, but i couldn't find the exact reply. the more i play with her, the more i want to try and up her numbers from one to two in my maindeck. block-phasing stops just about everything cold in it's path, and she's almost strictly harder to get rid of than morphling, since she can phase to safety from powder keg/ratchet bomb/innocent blood/diabolic edict/gatekeeper and all the rest of the indirect removal that's running around. that alone, warrants her a spot as far as i'm concerned, even if she only beats for three damage a turn. if you're in the position you want to be, that's still a pretty decent clock for your opponent. lastly, in any decklist that runs that few creatures, they should almost all have some sort of built in evasion, both offensively, and defensively.
I personally think Jace is to strong not to play as I also feel that he is not that hard to protect. If you are using keg/bomb (keg is no way any faster then bomb by the way. You tap to put a counter on bomb and every upkeep you have you put a counter on keg. It has the same speed.) and using shackles I feel you can protect jace. He does so many awesome things like drawing cards or giving you info of what your opponent will draw and acts as a win con that doesn't need to attack.
I always feel that propaganda never does enough for me expect in the goblin match up where I think the card is needed to win. I do feel that b2b can still be a power house but in the right meta.
I think Rainbow Efreet can be use in a heavy control meta, but even then I don't think it is that great. I also love ven clique in this deck. instant speed getting to see their hand and disrupting them is awesome imo.
Spell snare- I think this card hits to many important cards not to play.
Mental Misstep- While this card helps I don't think it is has good as everyone makes it out to be. I feel that it is only really strong in your opening hand and each turn that passes it gets weaker. I do think we need to play it though just want to hear other people thoughts on it.
I am trying a more creature build with faeries using spellsutter sprite. What do you guys think of that card? To slow? Or to random since it doesn't always hit something that you want it to hit?
you're right. i've been thinking about these two cards all wrong. the fact that keg can pop the same turn it gets a counter only gives it the illusion of being faster than bomb, since the bomb can tap for a counter as soon as it resolves. good call.Quote:
Originally Posted by C Rayz Walz
i think i'd still give the edge to the keg though, simply because most muc lists will only have to worry about wiping their own shackles, rather than their own back to basics, propaganda, jace, etc, as well.
@ sillyandrew: I really love your list. I played one list very similar to yours for about one year and a half. but with no brainstorms and full set of propaganda, back to basics, powder keg and fof and spell snare intead of spike.
then I took it to a turnament on January because it was the only deck I had with me in the town I study but with 22 island and 3 ponder which I discovered good add. finished 3-2-2 I remember losing to NO-bant (1-2) and merfolk 1-2 (in a very close game, he had red splash and killed me game 1 via 3 lighning bolts and g3 with 3 red elemental blast) and draw vs enchantress and UW countertop (he had pithing needle maindeck on my morphling sigh. I would now run 1 sphynx sometimes)
I had e really good time playing back that list that day. But I don't feel it is still that competitive as 2 years ago.
By the way, I feel mental misstep doesn't fit the permanent based strategy. spell snare is just better.
If I will decide to take it back to a turnament I would for sure take it like that :
22 island
1 rainbow efreet
2 morphling
4 preordain (much better than brainstorm or ponder here)
3 impulse
3 fact or fiction
4 fow
4 counterspell
3 snare
4 back to basics
3 propaganda
4 powder keg
3 vedalken shackles
sideboard (very probable) :
2 vendilion clique
2 energy field
2 seasinger
3 envelop
2 cryptic command
1 propaganda / masticore
1 pithing needle
2 relic of progenitus
my sideboard looks casual to first view but if you analize it, there are a lot of cards side-able vs every match up. a lot of possibilities.
I allways loved playing these permanent MUC builds (100% my favourite) but god they are so hard to run in turnaments.
I'm happy that you say that, as I don't even have Jace (but that shouldn't matter as we want to find the best list). However, I agree that running Jace with actual creature removal (StP+PtE or black removal + Pernicious deed) compared to running Jace without actual creature removal is a major difference.Quote:
short answer, zero jace.
The problem is...I'd say 90% of the time 2 win-cons > 3 win-cons. Most of the time two win-cons is enough, it's just for that remaining 10% that you may need an additional win-con. You finish them off with Shackles anyway, it's just when you're up against creatureless decks or decks that somehow get around Shackles (Shroud, etc.) that you actually need your win-cons and given a good draw-engine you find them when you need them. This is one of my reasons why I run 4 Mishra's Factory. The other reason is that Mishra's Factory is generally a good card that has many uses: Killing Jace, two Mishra's Fcatories killing Tarmogoyf, chumblocker, let me change roles more effectively...Quote:
short answer, three beaters.
I'm a big advocator of Brainstorm + Fetchlands. The only reason not to run Fetchlands is the lifeloss, but that is only two damage and you get a much better digging spell.Quote:
i'm of the mindset that brainstorm is extremely powerful
With Impulse it may happen that you have put all of your win-cons on the bottom of your library and not running any shuffle-effects you can't find them anymore.
Stfile is a non-issue IMO, as they have to leave open a land to cast Stifle, but if you are operating on instant speed, it's not very hard to play around Stifle. Besides they don't use it on Keg/bomb if they use it on a land.
Preordain and Ponder are sorceries; more often than not that gives Tarmogoyf +1/+1 in the early-game.Quote:
3 ponder which I discovered good add
I agree that 8 slots for the draw-engine is the minimum. 10 feels about right, 11+ is the upper end.Quote:
the draw engine
I've dropped to 8, because I run 4 Vedalken Shackles freeing up one slot (compared to a 10 card draw-engine and 3 Shackles). I think as long as I have a Shackles online a weaker draw-engine is acceptable. But I don't run a 11+ draw-engine, because I think that there aren't good enough draw spells available to warrant that (unlike Landstill that has Standstill); Impulse is solid, but it doesn't generate CA, and CA is how you win at the end of the day, so I rather go for CA via Shackles (thus 4 Shackles).
You're both running the BtB + Propaganda „lock“, the so called permanent based MUC. But how good is it? I'd say sometimes it's gamebreaking, but at other times it's weak, because they have some basics and you can't stop them pushing through the last points of damage.
I think that Mental Misstep is a 4 of. I don't know about Landstill: They have StP, PtE, and SS, so they may not need it, but MUC does absolutely need it...the fact that it stops a one mana beater and Aether Vial is enough to warrant it. No card except FoW can do that in MUC!
I run 4 Spell Snares because of Qasali Pridemage.
But how to fit in 4 MM and 4 SS? That is only possible by cutting Propaganda, as I see it.
I think this deck needs at least 23 lands, preferably 24. 23 is only acceptable with a good cantrip base.
Actually, I don't think that Disk is too slow, it's just that if my Disk gets destroyed by Krosan grip / Qasali Pridemage I'm way behind. I'm toying around with Disk as one of or two of.Quote:
as far as disk is concerned, i think it's too slow to really be considered at all.
It sound as a good idea, and running Faeries + Jitte would give you a better game vs. aggro, since, letīs face it, Keg/Bomb is usually too slow to get the job done. You could also run Sowers + Kira, which is a great combo, but you won't be able to equip your dudes as easily.Quote:
Originally Posted by C Rayz Walz
As it stands now, I think the 2 viable versions of MUC are:
1. 3 colour splash (RUG) for EE. Shackles, Jace, 1 Sphinx, Relic of Progenitus, Brainstorm.
2. Faerie build, with Sowers, Kiras, Spellstutter, Vendilion, Jitte (maybe Sword of X and X post board, Fire and Ice is a beating vs. Tribal).
Thoughts?
That would be a different deck. Fortunately for MUC, what qualifies as a MUC deck is pretty easy. If it's a mono-blue control deck, it happens to be MUC. If it's a RUG control deck, it happens to not be mono colored and isn't MUC. If you just meant land, I don't really see why you specified which colors it would be. Several times recently in the thread people have mentioned splashing in MUC...and I don't really get how that doesn't click to them that if something is Mono-Blue, then making it U/B, makes it not Mono-Blue.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Treefolk Master
I do think faeries has potential, simply because you don't have to tap out on your turn to play them, instead of EOT'ing draw you can EOT a beater.
i really think that most lists need to run back to basics. if you can resolve back to basics as early as possible against an opponent tapped out on non-basic lands, you win. if you can resolve a back to basics against an opponent playing a tri-colored deck, you force them to fetch for the three to six basic lands their deck has, and potentially screw their tempo in the process. sure against most monocolored decks it's a dead card, but at three maindeck, this is a negligible disadvantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Buddha
propaganda is probably weaker than back to basics, but it's protection the deck needs against enemy aggro plans. in a lot of games, the card actually ends up reading "during your opponent's turn, they can attack, or play spells, not both." also, if you can stack them, it's pretty much gg.
the two cards synergize fairly well too. imagine a situation where your opponent is locked into two basic lands and really needs to resolve an answer. this means they're not attacking. and on the flip side, what if you've got them on a decent clock? there almost forced to pay for propaganda in an effort to push their own clock forward, which essentially makes their entire hand useless.
i mean, there are plenty of arguments against the two cards, but they've always seemed like no brainers to me.
yea, I think fae route is actually pretty good. I have been playing a lot with it and I really like how it plays as it fits my style. Do you think the deck should have BB? I don't really like adding another color so what are peoples thoughts on it.
Kira/ sower- It is pretty good, but I don't like Kira and equipment and I personally think jitte is so insanely powerful. I guess you can still have them both in your deck, but it just feel awkward.
Mental Misstep- I actually think this card is very over hype as the more I play with it. I think we might have to run it for obvious reason but I do think overall spell snare is the better card. Stopping vial, lackey, top, and wild are very important for our deck. I just do not like having so many situational counters, but I feel we have to play with those cards.
swords- I think sword of feast and famine or sword of fire/ice are both playable and will try them.
I also want to try terferi but he probably is not good enough, but I can see it being pretty good as well.
jace-I think he is to good not to play, but if you feel that he is to hard to protect or just don't like him then I think it is the right move since you have to play what you feel comfortable with. I love him and will play him but that is just my opinion.
Still having a hard time finding what the best draw suite for this deck.
By splash, I meant just 1 Vlcanic ISland, 1 Tropical, 1 Mountain, 1 Forest; and I said RUG just to give an example, you could be UWB, UWR, or whatever. No other coloured spells :)
Here is my list as of current. I tried mental misstep in place of the spell snares but found myself quickly wanting spell snares back. The crystal balls were put in there recently and im liking them more and more. They help with the mid game draw a bunch and I personally think they warrant the 2 spots that would otherwise have gone to fof.
As far as the fae MUC build goes, on paper I can't say i'm a fan, but I will try it.
Anyways, opinions / concerns / comments ?
// Lands
25 [UNH] Island
// Creatures
1 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
1 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
3 [M11] Scroll Thief
1 [UD] Masticore
// Spells
3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [GP] Repeal
4 [IA] Counterspell
2 [LRW] Cryptic Command
2 [DD2] Fact or Fiction
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [NE] Accumulated Knowledge
2 [M11] Crystal Ball
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [US] Back to Basics
SB: 3 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [M11] Elixir of Immortality
SB: 2 [NE] Submerge
SB: 1 [TE] Meditate
SB: 2 [OD] Divert
Hi! It's my first post on this topic, and I have to admit, I love the deck since I eared about it!
I'm testing a version like this one :
23 Lands:
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
19 Island
11 Creatures:
2 Morphling
2 Sower of Temptation
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Spellstutter Sprite
26 Spells:
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Vedalken Shackles
2 Cryptic Command
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
4 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
Sideboard:
2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Back to Basics
4 Propaganda
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
2 Ratchet Bomb
I'm Pretty happy of the deck and I really love Mental Misstep and CC (but I would run 3 of them since I don't like to open a hand with more than 1, even 1 is too much :tongue:)
MM is for me a 4 of since it counters really a lot of things ^^ and more I test it, more I love it :smile:
I'm playing 4 fetches just to get less land cards in the late game (I'm used to mana flood ... must be a bad luck :cry:) but like I'm running them I would love to run BS or ... SdT ... I have the filling that the last one can be really good, now the problem I'm having is "what to remove" to enter ... let's say ... 3 Top
I'm not running jace even if I have enough creatures to defend it, simply cause I don't have it ^^ and at it's actual price, I'm not considering buying it ^^ (maybe if it's price drops)
My SB is really not optimal I think, I'm running Llawan against merfolk obv but I didn't really try it yet.
Propaganda and BtB are obv.
I'm running Relic cause I have some Dredge and Junk that use and abuse the grave :S (but again I didn't have that much time to try it)
So my questions are :
1/ What do you think about the deck I'm running with?
2/ Would you put BS or Top, and if so, what would you remove to enter it?
3/ What about the SB? I'm realy not sure about Teferi and Rachet bomb since I have the feeling that we could run better cards.
I hope my post brings something to the conversation.
(Sorry for my poor english, it's only my third language ^^)
LOVE THE lIST! I wonder why lol(i play the same list if you didn't know)- how are the commands treating you in your list. I love jace but if you can't afford him I understand that. I can see CC being pretty good in your list since I feel you can race which is important. I am really considering going to 4 clique which may be to much. 4 fetches dont really affect your draw that much to warrant them imo. if I wanted to do the math I would be I am lazy and I would just run island. if you run fetches I would run either brainstorm( most like) or top and if you run top you can run CB in your board even tough I hate that card lol. Like I said this is the list that I am playing but I am playing 3 jace instead which I find awesome so if u can get them I would.
I played a lot of games today vs folk, the gate, goblins, thresh.
if the gate gets down BB it is pretty had other than that I find the match up pretty easy
Beat folk 2-1...all good games..lost to goblins 1-2 hard match but winnable-
beat thresh pretty easily..2-0..let me know of any other ideas you guys have
yeah I know you play more or less the same list (your list was the deck I took the make mine ^^ btw good work, I love it!)
I changed it a bit yesterday :
-1 Island
-1 Vedalken Shackles
+2 Jace (yeah I finnaly buy them ^^)
I'm not considering playing 3 Jace for the moment, I'll see when I receive them and I can try them, I'll maybe change my mind :)
The fetches can be good (with jace) but I'm still thinking that to be optimal i should run BS or top ... even if I have some doubts about them in this build.
I will not run CB in this deck although if I run Top, because i feel that it changes the deck too much, I don't have the mana curve for this (and I'm not that good with it ^^)
CC was good even if I missplayed sometimes with it, it buys time, and that's the most important thing for me specially with jace on the table.
Did one of you tryied Gigadrowse against aggro? A friend just proposed me it yesterday, and I don't know if it can be good or not. Let me know what you think about it :)