[Deck] Dredge

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Originally Posted by Izor

If you look at the latest tournament results you'll see that the vast majority of Dredge decks that placed well are in fact LED-less. It's been some time now that LED-less lists seem to be placing better than LED builds. I guess that explains why most people play without it.

I highly doubt that it has anything to do with the price. If Legacy worked like that you would also see Wasteland- and Force of Will-less Merfolk builds placing better than the proven lists, but in fact that doesn't work at all.

All LED actually does for the deck is give it a slim chance for a turn 1 win and possibly play around Mental Misstep. The second argument again is a lot less valid than it seems:
Just imagine you play LED turn 1. Your opponent has a misstep and can't counter. So you crack LED and cast Breakthrough, which is of course misstepped. The only thing you've just accomplished is some Dredgers in your grave and nothing in your hand. I honestly think that DDDing and saving your draw spells for when you've therapied away your opponents permission would be a better place for you to be. And LED-less can do that just as well.

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That's why you DDD in the first turn with LED lists. Game 1 I'm always on the play, no matter what the dice give me. If the opponent shows any sign of Island, I just DDD, or try some blind Therapy. If the opponent goes for Taiga + Wild Nacatl, I just shit on his face.

Ichorid, in all it's variants has a good recover, in all matters. This deck isn't a tempo.dec, where you can't miss a land drop or play cantrips. Just bait countermagic and wait for the right moment.

I think that's the main reason why people just lose with dredge. They don't have any patience... They want to resolve stuff like there's no tomorrow, and that's exactly what those blue decks are expecting and prepared for.

Manaless dredge is 1 win out of top 8 @ SCG Cincinatti.

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...as_Rausch.html

Interesting stuff.

Star City Games Cincinnati - Legacy Open


Manaless Dredge deck tech: http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...as_Rausch.html

LEDless Dredge list: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=39683

Source: StarCityGames.com


Updates:

The LEDless Dredge quickly fell against the Alex Bertoncini's NO RUG in the QF.


Quarter Finals: Manaless Dredge (Nicholas Rausch) 2 : 0 Mono-Blue Control (Reuben Bresler)


Semi-Finals: Manaless Dredge (Nicholas Rausch) 2 : 1 Junk Depths (Brian Boss)

G1: Dredge grinds out the victory after getting bojuka bog'd.
G2: Explosive Junk start with turn 1 thoughtseize followed by multiple Goyfs in turn 3 and then a Loam/wasteland/bojuka lock.
G3: Dredge gets bog'd turn 2. Facing 1 turn clock for the lethal 20/20 hitting the game and/or a Loam lockdown, pulls the win with a massive army and sphinx of the steel wind attack.


Grand Finals: Manaless Dredge (Nicholas Rausch) 2 : 0 Blue Zoo (Caleb Durward)

G1: Easy beatdown by Dredge.
G2: The Zoo deck has no hate, so it gets destroyed pretty easily again.


*** Congratulations to Nicholas Rausch! ***


Note: The Manaless Dredge just lost one match in the event and it was due to Leyline of the Void.


Manaless Dredge list:

Maindeck:
4 Bloodghast
3 Gigapede
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Shambling Shell
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Street Wraith
1 Woodfall Primus
4 Bridge from Below
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Dread Return
3 Dakmor Salvage

Sideboard:
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Sphinx of the Steel Wind
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Blazing Archon
1 Gigapede
1 Stormtide Leviathan
1 Terastodon
4 Contagion
1 Akroma, Angel of Wrath
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress

In Sideboard of Manaless Dredge, i suger:

-1 Gigapede +1 Blightsteel Colossus for Painter/Grindstone match up, and i can't think in any card to beat Leyline of the Void, without mana its impossible!

Commentors said: "Everyone are buying cards for that deck!" :p

This Manaless Dredge thing just folds to Leyline of the Void. Moving on, nothing to see here.

If Brian Boss had more (any?) familiarity versus dredge I am confidant he would have won the match. The dredge deck was fun to watch during the live coverage. Virtually all of my decks have leyline of the void in the SB, so it was odd to watch it waltz through decks that didn't.

Not to mention Turn 1 Relic...

... however, it is quite the entertaining deck in casual :)

You can play around turn 1 Relic of Progenitus with Phantasmagorian and Street Wraith.

This deck does not only scoop to Leyline of the Void. Wheel of Sun and Moon stops it completely. The Tabernacle at Penrell Vell is nasty too. Wheel of Sun and Moon can be tutored via Enlightened Tutor and thats a real problem. Because you always wanna draw first your opponent can tutor up for SoWaM in response to a cabal theray. The only way out is Mental Misstep their E.Tutor. Mental Misstep would help against ANT or High Tide too.

Possible sideboard cards for manaless dredge to fight hate:

- Mental Misstep (E.Tutor, Surgical Extraction, Relic of Progenitus, combo)
- Unmask
- Chalice of the Void @zero (Tormods Crypt, LED, Engineered Explosives)
- Leyline of the Void (Mirror Match, self saccing creatures like Hexmage, Mogg Fanatic, Grim Lavamancer)
- Surgical Extraction (Leyline would be besser most of the time)
- Contagion (Yixlid Jailer)
- Realm Razer (The Tabernacle)

General sideboard cards:

- Mindbreak Trap (if you fear fast combo)

Just brainstorming ... maybe we can collect more.

Legacy doesn't believe in LotV. WoSaM sometimes, but LotV sees such little play even more so in bigger(100+) events.

I don't see why people try to counter hate on Leyline when normal mana dredge has trouble with it and is debatable wether or not it's worth it to have Ray's or not. This deck is all in on proactiveness, that is not debatable (probably how regular dredge should be played as well, but arguing about that is useless)

/e Also, @pcccp, additional permanent hate for tabernacle isn't needed when you have Woodfall Primus maindeck + all those hasted dudes...

Grow a pair, you auto lose to 1 card that's in bad sideboards, when you get what appears like much more consistency vs less speed.

Well the deck doesn't really fold to Tabernacle, as you can allways stack the Tabernacle above the Ichorid triggers, get them back and just DR for Woodfall Primus.
Didn't the original creators of this deck also claimed that the list isn't better than the traditional LEDless list? It was just their personal take on the dredge archetyp.

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Originally Posted by Felidae

Well the deck doesn't really fold to Tabernacle, as you can allways stack the Tabernacle above the Ichorid triggers, get them back and just DR for Woodfall Primus.
Didn't the original creators of this deck also claimed that the list isn't better than the traditional LEDless list? It was just their personal take on the dredge archetyp.

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Well I have to say:

In a meta where there is barely any hate, but alot of control the Manaless build seems superior to the traditional build since the manaless build simply does not interact.

In a meta where there are a decent amount of hate cards around (and then I mean Relic/leyline/wheel and NOT tormod's) I think the traditional build might be a bit better, but not by far tbh.

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Originally Posted by 1maarten1

Well I have to say:

In a meta where there is barely any hate, but alot of control the Manaless build seems superior to the traditional build since the manaless build simply does not interact.

In a meta where there are a decent amount of hate cards around (and then I mean Relic/leyline/wheel and NOT tormod's) I think the traditional build might be a bit better, but not by far tbh.

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Seems about right, even after 2 turns of timewalk with the bojuka bog he recovered pretty handily. The street wraiths seem to be the key to fight the hate, it really needs more appearance for anything to be said yet though, maybe it was a fluke...

The threat density is just so high its crazy, after 2-3 dredges its pretty hard to stop, or so it seems

Mana is also better in a combo heavy metagame.

Yes? That comment made absolutley zero sense.

OT though, the manaless list is absolutely bonkers. Rapes all kinds of control. And since the meta has shifted more towards the control, maverick way this deck will shine.

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Originally Posted by fyrisen

Yes? That comment made absolutley zero sense.

OT though, the manaless list is absolutely bonkers. Rapes all kinds of control. And since the meta has shifted more towards the control, maverick way this deck will shine.

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Mana dredge is faster due to draw spells, this is what he was talking about.

I fail to see how manaless dredge is better against maverick, could you enlighten me?

ManaLess Dredge is going to lose a lot to a first turn Relic. I mean their only out is Phantasmagorian and then if you blow Relic in response you just bought yourself 3 turns until they can discard again. Then if they don't have Phantas you just nuke their GY every turn.

I find it amazing how a deck win a big tourney and still gets dismissed as if it was nothing, with comments like "this deck folds to leyline".

True, this deck folds to leyline, but not everyone is willing to pack hate against dredge, because it's just one deck and requires so much hate to be hated out effectively.

Besides, "lose a lot to t1 relic" is already controversial. If you are running relic over leyline against dredge, you are either intending to draw relic during the course of the match, or not running enough leyline to make its % chance good enough. Either case you are willing not to land a T1 relic, which already had only 40% chance of happening if running a full set. This doesn't look like "lose a lot to t1 relic" to me.

All that said, I still wanna know why fyrisen believe manaless is better against Maverick. Besides, any dredge list rapes control if played properly.

I think the conversations being had about the deck folding to two cards is rather rhetorical, at best. People need to understand that the format has truly slowed down a full turn with the advent of Mental Misstep. Control has gotten more prevalent as a result of this meta shift, and the fact is Blue decks sit and wait at the higher tables because of their consistency in beating decks that just can't keep up; it's all redundant by now. What this particular deck did was it feasted upon those decks waiting at the higher tables that weren't ready or capable of handling it and frankly steamrolled its way to the title once it reached the Top Eight.

Most people simply dismiss Dredge (Ichorid) as being a long-shot to play against in a big tournament, but legitimately fear the deck once they sit across from it because, frankly, it is just capable of explosive plays. I was rooting so hard for the Manaless Dredge player to win that whole event.

Here's a guy who outlasted Force of Wills and everything in between with Nether Shadows and Gigapedes. That isn't a fluke; this guy knew what he was doing and he took a very interesting approach to this archetype, and one that actually uses the Discard Step to its advantage. That not only takes balls, but some serious skill.

My hat is off to him.