[Deck] Goblins

Took me a while to write this, so I probably don’t remember much, but this is my report from my Nationals:

The decklist was severely tested. The only last minute changes were cutting Chalice of the Void from the sb to add some tech stuff, that I never got to use:

Core
4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Goblin Warchief / 1 Chieftain
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Seige-Gang Commander

Flex
4 Pyroknesis
1 Stingscourger
2 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Skirk Prospector
2 Mogg Warmarchall
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Kiki-Jiki Mirrorbreaker

4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
15 Montanha

Sideboard
4 Surgical Extraction
1 Faerie Macabre
3 Blood Moon
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
2 Grim Lavamancer

The MB was great. I still wouldn’t change a thing. The SB may look weird, but it originally had: 4 Grave hate, 4 Combo Hate, 4 ReB and 3 Blood Moons. The Combo hate cards were cut do fit a Scrapper (for Mavericks and UW Stone), a Macabre, because there were a lot of Dredge and Reanimator, and 2 Lavamancer, that was good against anything tribal, and great counter-acting that pesky Mother of Runes, also killing everything else.

Match 1 – UW
Game 1: I lose the rool, and mull. Then mull again. Then mull again. My 4 cards were Lackey, Ringleader, Mountain, Rishdan Port. Sweet. He plays fetch, I draw Vial and play it. He Dazes. Next turn I play Lackey, and he only drops Island + Mutavault. I draw Incinerator and hit. He cast Spellstuter Sprite, which I Gempalm and get 2 goblins from Lackey.He plays a land and passes. I attack, and he flashes Vendillion Clique, taking my other Ringleader and blocking Lackey. I’m awesome, so Clique gives me Lackey, which I play. He does nothing relevant. I attack. He flashes Snapcaster, targeting Daze, and kills my Lackey. I manage to Matron for Ringleader, play next turn, draw 3 goblins, and roll him over after he plays Jace.

SB: +4 ReB, +2 Grim, -2 MWM, -4 Knesis.
This was completely wrong. Even though I haven’t seen Stoneforge G1, I should had brought the 2nd Tuktuk in. That costed me game 2.

Game 2: He gets Stoneforge, I get Vial, Vialing Matron for Tuktuk, and playing a 2nd one for Kiki. The game develops a little while he bashes me a few times with Batterskull, then attaches Sword BG on it. He plays a 2nd Stoneforger that get Wsord F/I, and equips on the other Stoneforge. I vial Tuktuk to destroy the F/I, and block Batterskull with Matron. Next turn I resolve a Matron for Kiki (should be 2nd Scrapper) and pass with Vial @5. He draws, and plays the drawn card: Stoneforge getting Jitte. He plays, equips and attacks (lots of mana), with just 1 card in hand. I Vial Kiki and try to copy Tuktuk, but of course, the last card was StP, and I lose.

Game 3: I start a good game, with T2 Porting him. He Wastes my Port. I play Piledriver, than Warchief (that gets StP’d), than Ringleader, that gets FoW’d, than Ringleader, that reveals 2 bad goblins. He gets Stoneforge, I get rid of an equipment, and we’re both without cards. He gets Stoneforge for Batterskull, than find Jitte, while I topdeck lands. When I get a Stingscourger to bounce the token, his last card is a Sprite. He equips and kills me. Bummer.
0-1

Match 2: MonoU Control
Game 1: I lead with Lacky. He sighs and plays that land that gives -1/-2 to an attacking creature. I waste it, connect, drop Warchief and Piledriver. He dies 2 turns later.

Game 2: My Lackey is Force Spiked. He plays Powder Keg, and me Mogg Warmarchall. Mogg beats for 2 for some 6 turns, while he countered my other guys. Later he tries to Jace, but I ReB, and a ringleader later he is over.
1-1

Match 3 – Merfolk
Game 1 : He lead with Vial, and Forces mine. He plays Lord. I play MWM. He attacks and vial Lord. I do nothing. He ticks vial, and attacks. I block both lords. EoT I Knesis them both. He vials Kira, and next turn plays a Coralhelm. After another FoW, I die in 3 turns.

Game 2: My vial resolves. He gets one too, and a Jitte. My Knesis kill his only creature (lord) while he equipped. He Vialed a Phantasmal Image to copy it. I Vial Sharpshooter to kill it my turn. From there, I Matron for Gempalm twice, and kill him slowly with them.

Game 3: He flooded quite a bit, but my hand was pure gasoline. 2 Knesis and ReB on opening. Kill everything he plays plan, and it works.
2-1

Match 4 – Zoo
Game 1: I do the same thing I did with Folk, blocking 2 Nacatls with MwM than killing them with Knesis. Unfortunately I stumble on lands, and don’t get passa 3. I Matron for Warchief, but he Bolts it. Luckly, he is low on threats. I get a Ringleader to refill, and when he should drop a big guy, he got Sylvan. I sting a guy some turn after that, and port him to few lands. It is enough to ge him few blockers, and he dies.

Game 2: I manage to Knesis 2 2/2 Nacatls after a well timed Waste. 3 Turns later, when he had Mountain + other land, I cast Blood Moon that seals the game.
3-1

Match 5 – Zoo
Game 1: The game progresses to a position where he have no cards and a Goyf, and I have 2 cards and 4 lands (2 Siege-Gangs). I topdeck Ringleader, that gets me nothing, than Prospector, that he kills, than Vial, than Matron. Then I die.

Game 2: More of the same. I stumble on lands not reaching the 5th with Siege-gang and kiki on hand. But the moment where I throw the game is where he has a 3 / 4 Goyf and I a Vial at 4, and he casts Pridemage with mana open. I had a Knesis and let Goyf resolves. When I realize my stupidity it was late. He hits with exalted, than destroys my Vial. Of course I don’t draw a 5th land. Next turn he gets a big Relicary than Lavamancer, and it was over. I did manage to block 1 of his guys for a few turns, but the other killed me =/.
3-2

Match 6 – Nic Fit
Game 1: He’s on the draw and keeps. I mull, than mull, then mull, keeping Lackey, MWM, Mountain and Port. I play lackey and he plays Veteran Explorer. I decide to do not attack to not ramp him, but I use Port. He plays Cabal, than Flashbacks it, than StP my Lackey. I topdeck a Ringleader like a champ getting me 3 goblins. He plays Witness for StP. I play another Ringleader for 3 more guys, and overwhelm him with guys. Mulling to 4 is tech. =]

Game 2: This one is tougher, but I get double Port and a Waste to keep him low on lands.He lands a Liliana when I had nothing, discarding a Knesis. Warchief hits it. I discard another card. Then get to Stingscourger his blocker, kill Liliana, and Port him out of mana with another Waste alongside. 2 Piledrivers later he dies.
4-2

Match 7 – Sneak Show
Game 1 : I lead with Vial. He with Island. I up Vial and pass. He plays Tomb, Petal and Sneak Attack. I play Matron for Sting. He plays Petal And Emrakul. I Sting it. I hit a few. He plays Petal and annihilates me. After a Blood Moon, 2 turns later he finds a Progenitus.

Game 2: I lead with Lackey. He with land. I hit and plays Vial and SGC. He gets 2 Petals and Sneak Attack. I hit, drop Warchief and and Prospector. He Annihilates me. I draw nothing relevant and hit for a few. Next turn he Brainstorms and Progenitus me out. Nice.
4-3

And this was my Nationals. I got quite sad because I lost 2 matchs just because of my mistakes, and it dropped me out of the top8. Despite that the deck felt great, and could have done better with a better player.
My team did rather poorly, getting a Top8 (Fuzzy with Lands) and Shimi getting a 4-0 start with TES, but then not managing to combo out the other 3 matchs.

Don’t think that I’ll be playing it again soon, because combo might rise again around here, and I since Sneak Show exists, there isn’t a SB cards that is good against all the MU’s, so I simply ignore them.

I like the main deck pyyokinesis,it seems like it was always good. Did you ever want Ancient grudge in the stone blade match? Iv never played 4 Redblast before,how good is 4 againts stoneblade? Nice report! Its good to see goblins getting played!

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Originally Posted by gamer4life

I like the main deck pyyokinesis,it seems like it was always good. Did you ever want Ancient grudge in the stone blade match? Iv never played 4 Redblast before,how good is 4 againts stoneblade? Nice report! Its good to see goblins getting played!

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Ancient Grudge is not needed. In my testing, 2 Scrappers are enough to handle UW. Remember just to use them wisely. I usually don't use them for Batterskull. My prime targets are Sword F/I and Jitte. Batterskull can be chumped and the goblin sacced for Prospector, and later, bounce or Gempalm it for the alpha strike turn.
4 ReB were very good against Stoneblade. Though their threats are not blue, ReBing most of their spells can be gamebreaking,like Snapcaster, Clique, Jace or FoW. Sometimes even Brainstorm.
The maindeck Kinesis was added to clear SB space. There were 2, than 3. Then finally Gobbolord convinced me to cut the 3rd Gempalm for the last Kinesis, and it was the right move.

has anyone ever considered running sylvan library? i am thinking about possibly removing a warren weirding and wort boggart auntie for 2 sylvan library.

i like the idea of being able to manipulate my topdeck every turn.

the pros: being able to get around jace's fateseal ability which is a house against me.
i currrently run 12 shuffle effects so if i saw 2 dead cards the turn before i can easily whisk them away for 3 fresh cards next turn
it almost guarantees i draw into some gas late game. dead draws = dead goblin player
i could also make some very explosive moves at the cost of not too much life
i can more easily recover from wrath of god / firespout or any board wipe by paying 8 life and dropping at least 3 gobbos in play
there are no other enchantments in the deck, so the deck would be more diversified against opponents hate cards. example if they do sideboard in enchantment hate thats 1 less removal spell targeting my enablers.
also if i see 3 goblins i can keep just 1 and then drop ringleader netting me 2 guaranteed goblins + a chance at 2 more.
whiffing ringleader into 4 non goblin cards is game changing, it could be completely avoided though

the deck has no other deck manipulation and sometimes i feel like it would be very useful. wondering what everyone else thinks on the subject.

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Originally Posted by Talanos

Thanks for the report jrw. Did you miss your war marshals against the goyf armies?

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No, I've never been a huge fan of MWM. I've found that it's usually better to play removal or a threat than a chump blocker. MWM is pretty easy to play around also. If you attack with everything your opponent will block and kill the token before the card. If you hang back to use it as a chump blocker your opponent will just StP it and deny you a third goblin. Your opponent can afford to throw exile cards at pretty much anything now that Snapcaster is running the format. And do you really want to be chump-blocking a Batterskull all day?
MWM/Skirk/Sharpshooter is cute, but removal makes 2-creature combos practically unplayable currently. Batterskull makes chump blocking less than ideal, and Delver and Sword of Fire and Ice make chump blocking impossible. Basically, I think there are too many threats to deal with and chump blocking just won't cut it.

I talked about sylvan library a bit in the previous topic. It's good but in the end having a two drop that doesn't affect immediately the board is too far from goblins' basic strategy.

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Originally Posted by jrw1985

No, I've never been a huge fan of MWM. I've found that it's usually better to play removal or a threat than a chump blocker. MWM is pretty easy to play around also. If you attack with everything your opponent will block and kill the token before the card. If you hang back to use it as a chump blocker your opponent will just StP it and deny you a third goblin. Your opponent can afford to throw exile cards at pretty much anything now that Snapcaster is running the format. And do you really want to be chump-blocking a Batterskull all day?
MWM/Skirk/Sharpshooter is cute, but removal makes 2-creature combos practically unplayable currently. Batterskull makes chump blocking less than ideal, and Delver and Sword of Fire and Ice make chump blocking impossible. Basically, I think there are too many threats to deal with and chump blocking just won't cut it.

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He isn't the best goblin out there to be sure, but what he does has value if used primarily for defence purposes. It's true that he won't be able to block evasion dudes (like Delver of Secrets) but you already have Tarfire/Gempalm/Bolt for that.

Useing quality removal to get,dunno, 3 dmg through (maybe even less with the lifegain into the equation) is just wasteful. He will more likely chump for a turn or so while AEther Vial ticks up.

I would never tutor for him with Matron but I'm rarely unhappy to see him.

Hi all,
what about Leyline of Lifeforce against control decks?

I am a huge fan of MWM, he replaced Mogg Fanatic in my list when the fanatic got nerfed. MWM has great synergy with my Gempalms, Piledrivers and SGC's, and if the board is swept away by a wrath of god like effect, then my Goblins can recover more quickly. MWM is more than just a chump blocker, he is synergy with the rest of the deck and it is why I never play less than 3 and I like to play 4.
However of course all cards are meta dependent and come down to individual play style.

I think this deck is underplayed in the metagame. I'm strongly considering playing this deck at SCG St. Louis (perhaps even the SCG Invitational). Canadian Thresh, Team America, Stoneblade Control, Merfolk, and Maverick are the decks I have in mind as I consider playing this deck. Storm and Reanimator are terrible matchups, but the others are acceptable/favorable, imho. If I can scrap some of the missing cards together, I'll be playing:

// Lands - 23
5 Mountain
2 Taiga
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port

// Standard - 26
4 Goblin Lackey
4 AEther Vial
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Siege-Gang Commander

// Non-Standard - 11
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger
2 Tin Street Hooligan

// Sideboard
SB: 1 Tin Street Hooligan
SB: 1 Tuktuk Scrapper
SB: 4 Krosan Grip
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 Pyrokinesis
SB: 1 Goblin Sharpshooter

I've really tried to go mono-red, particularly as Stifle is a force again in the metagame. Unfortunately, Tuktuk Scrapper is profoundly slow, to the point that I'm forced to splash green to pickup TSH (which has been head and shoulders better). 2 artifact-removal cards seems necessary, SFM is everywhere.

Mogg Fanatic lost favor with M10, and I haven't played it much until just recently (I started with MWM and Chieftains, but after more thought and testing, I've moved away from them). Snapcaster, Delver, Mom, Hierarch, BoP, Aven Mindcensor, Bob, and V-Cliq (among other 1 toughness creatures) are to be found in the tier 1 and 1.5 decks that I am metagaming against. Beyond removing half the creatures played in the upper tiers, Fanatic is not much different than pre-m10 in synergizing with Lackey (forcing connects), and of course, Incinerator is a gem with Fanatics. Goblins wants to see attrition wars, as Ringleader will win the game for us, and Incinerator/Fanatic do a great job at bringing us to the mid-late game. At this point, Fanatic is fantastic in the metagame where Goblins belongs. I know some people don't favor the 'control' goblins approach, and I know many are still bitter about the M10 changes, to the point that Fanatic isn't always given a fair look/test. Check it out, you really might like it.

The sideboard may look odd for 2 reasons that I can see.

1) I have 2 more pieces of strict artifact hate. This isn't overkill. When I want artifact hate, I want a lot of it. The fact is that if you find yourself tutoring all the time for TSH, then you should increase its numbers. Matron is improved by increased numbers of a function like artifact hate directly because you won't be forced to Matron for artifact hate nearly as much, and instead you can choose other important functions. The singleton Tuktuk is acceptable because there are times where I must Vial an answer into play, and Tuktuk is far better than TSH in this respect.

2) There is a distinct lack of hate for Storm. I'm throwing the match.

If I add Moon to the SB again, it will be -1 Grip, -1 TSH, -1 Crypt; +3 Moon.

Thoughts?


peace,
4eak

@4eak: I really dig it. The only change I would make is -1 Rishadan Port, +1 Mountain/Taiga. I only like 4 Ports in a slower metagame. I'd probably add the Taiga just in case someone double Wastelands you can still fetch up a Green mana when needed. Also, I just like more Red mana sources so when you untap with Warchief you can bring the pain. I playtested Fanatics back in the MM era and they were good then and are better now. I switch them up with Lightning Bolts every now and again but Fanatic is a very real card.

Your list is excellent. I was thinking about it at work tonight and was going to come home and write this long post about what needed to change but looked at it more closely and those cards were already there. :P I like the 23 land configuration because I hate mulliganing and this deck is mana hungry, to the surprise of no one at this point.

I don't think Reanimator is near as bad as Storm, especially with 4 Crypts in the board. If they get you early, then they get you. Midgame it's much harder for them to resolve Jin-Gitaxias since you can Piledriver them into the ground or it dies automatically to Gempalm.

What decks do you want Blood Moon against? The decks that it shuts down are only slower decks like Lands, Landstill and the like that aren't being played. I'd much rather play Price of Progress since you can actually kill people out of nowhere with it and no one expects it.

Anyways, good luck!

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Originally Posted by Amon Amarth

What decks do you want Blood Moon against? The decks that it shuts down are only slower decks like Lands, Landstill and the like that aren't being played.

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Canadian, Bant, UWB Snap and TA come to mind. Blood Moon simply wins the game when resolved. Sure UWB and Bant have some basics, but it really doesn't matter. When their forced playing 1 spell a turn, you'r going to win. Also, most Bant lists run at most 3 Basics, so good luck for them trying to sacrifice a Mountain for Knight of the Relicary.

About the list: I really like it. The SB, not so much. Those 4 K.Grips are completely not needed, specially with 4 Artifact hate cards (you can not only tutor for them, but Ringleader get's them for you). Sword of Fire and Ice and Umezawa's Jitte are, in that order, the 2 most problematic equipment against us. Batter and other Swords are easily handled. I just don't want to see you drawing Grips and Hooligans while you're beaten down by a Relicary/Goyf/Jace/Progenitus.

brought this list to a local tournament tuesday.

//Lands [21]
2 taiga
2 badland
4 arid mesa
4 bloodstained mire
5 mountain
4 wasteland

//Core [26]:
4 AEther Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander

//Others [13]:
4 gempalm incinerator
3 warren weirding
2 warren instigator
1 goblin sharpshooter
1 tin street hooligan
1 goblin artificer
1 wort, boggart auntie

//sideboard:
4 leyline of the void
4 mindbreak trap
3 perish
2 krosan grip
2 red elemental blast

round 1: u/w control, counterbalance/jace variant (poor notes, sorry) 2-1
game 1: i play lackey which gets fow'd. my other creatures get SToP'd and i just cant get there.

game 2: i stick turn 1 aether vial into turn 2 aether vial. turn 3 i waste his white source and just up the vial. turn 3 i absolutely explode. vial in warchief, vial in warren instigator. cast warren weirding on him. swing at his open board. put ringleader and siege gang into play with instigator. good game.

game 3: turn 1 lackey sticks. he doesnt have swords. turn 2 lackey hits and siege gang comes down.

round 2: r/u/w control 2-0
game 1: he says "i shouldnt keep this, but i will" i wasteland his only 2 lands in his hand during turn 1 and 2. turn 3 i drop lackey which sticks. he has no land at this point. lackey smashes and two or three turns later i win, he only ever got 1 more land.

game 2: lackey doesnt stick but aether vial does. i play a piledriver which gets lightning bolted. and a warchief which got removed. eventually i get vial up to 4 and drop ringleader which nets me 4 goblins including another ringleader. i ringleader again the next turn and get 3 wastelands and an aether vial. -_- the goblins i have get me there though.

round 3: affinity 2-1
game 1: i stick a lackey but he drops several memnite's and vault skirge and other cheap affinity creatures including frogmite. i cant swing against his wall of creatures for several turns so we both just kind of build up our boards. every turn he swings with vault skirge and he eventually whittles me down to 11 life and he has zero cards in hand. i topdeck matron and go find sharpshooter with 2 incinerators in my hand. i play sharpshooter and pass the turn. he drops a cranial plating which i kill with goblin artificer. on my turn i wipe his board using sharpshooter and incinerators. then swing for the kill.

game 2: vault skirge with cranial plating whiddles me down to 8 life. he has a spanish tezzeret in play and i am horrible at this game because i dont know what he does and ignore it. turns out he does double the number of artifacts he controls to my face. i lose which really hurts because i had sharpshooter, siege gang, piledriver and other goodies. i could have swung at tezzeret the turn before and killed it but i would have lost most of my best goblins to his blockers but i would have been alive.

game 3: turn 1 i stick aether vial. turn 2 i stick lackey but he has far too many blockers. i have gempalm incinerator in my hand. i rip a wort, boggart auntie off the topdeck on turn 5 and i vial her into play at the end of his turn. i bring back incinerator every turn and kill another one of his creatures but i only have 1 taiga, 1 mountain and 1 wasteland in play so i cant play any of the cards in my hand because i have to incinerator his vault skirge's every turn. eventually i build up to 7 goblins in my hand, incinerator in the graveyard and i rip a warren weirding. i return incinerator to my hand again and i destroy the last of his creatures, he has cranial plating with nothing to equip to and no cards in hand. at this point i just start dropping goblins and 2 turns later i win.

round 4: ad-nauseam tendrils 0-2
game 1: at end of my 3rd turn im 1 turn from killing him and he pops off
game 2: i board in mindbreak trap x4 and LoTV x4. and i topdeck 1 LoTV and 1 mindbreak trap starting hand. i keep the hand cus of LoTV it only had 3 goblins though a warren instigator, goblin warchief, and goblin matron. turn 2 i rip another mindbreak trap and play instigator. turn 3 i swing and drop lots of goblins. once again i get to the point where im 1 turn from winning. on his turn before though he used gitaxian probe and saw the 2 mindbreak trap i had in my hand. so on his last turn he hits me with cabal therapy naming mindbreak trap, then he goes off and i lose. i never even got the chance to drop the trap.

in the last round i faced my friend i went there with so we just decided to split 1st and 2nd place prize. and i added my first rishadan port to my collection.

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The only change I would make is -1 Rishadan Port, +1 Mountain/Taiga. I only like 4 Ports in a slower metagame. I'd probably add the Taiga just in case someone double Wastelands you can still fetch up a Green mana when needed. Also, I just like more Red mana sources so when you untap with Warchief you can bring the pain.

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I think you are right, I should really aim to have the 3rd Taiga. Maverick is quite capable of keeping me off green mana (I can't always fetch conservatively), I need my green mana in that matchup.

As to replacing Port, I'm not sure. I hear you on the Warchief, but Port has been excellent for me. Port is obviously best in slower metagame, but I think it is still quite useful in faster ones. Port slows down faster metagames so that Goblins can actually get to the midgame. I was thinking:

-1 Mountain
+1 Taiga

We'll see, I'll test more.

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About the list: I really like it. The SB, not so much. Those 4 K.Grips are completely not needed, specially with 4 Artifact hate cards (you can not only tutor for them, but Ringleader get's them for you). Sword of Fire and Ice and Umezawa's Jitte are, in that order, the 2 most problematic equipment against us. Batter and other Swords are easily handled. I just don't want to see you drawing Grips and Hooligans while you're beaten down by a Relicary/Goyf/Jace/Progenitus.

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I don't bring them in as artifact hate. I have no need for it when I have 4 artifact-hate cards in the 75. Grip is there as enchantment hate (it only arbitrarily hits artifacts in decks which have must answer enchantments). I'm not particularly in love with Grip, but I like it better than other options (e.g. Nature's Claim) for Enchantment hate. Like any non-Goblin card, you have to play 3 or 4 of the card to have a realistic shot of seeing it during the game. Admittedly, there aren't a ton of matchups where I would bring in K-Grip. So, Grip is taking up a lot of space for very few matchups (not good). I look at Grip is a catchall of sorts, but upon reflection, I am more than willing to part with the card.

Honestly, I don't want to get caught with my pants down (having no answers) to cards like Humility (which are stunningly good in the metagame). But, eh, who plays Humility? Alright, I'm taking them out.

-4 Grip
+3 Moon (this suffers from severe diminishing returns in my eyes, so 3 is where I want it)

As to the last slot, I'm not sure.


peace,
4eak

Humility only comes down what turn? 6? It shouldn't be a problem. After that, beat the opponent down with 1/1 creatures. If we're talking about Moat there's SCG and Sharpshooter.
For the last sB Slot, if you want something against Agroo, put a Bolt or Stingscourger in (ok against SnT too). If you want more grave hate, I'd suggest Surgical Extraction, because you can also use against Intuition decks. If you want something against Control, put a ReB, so you can bring in against Folk too. You can also put a 2nd Shooter, that is a house against many matches.
(Remembered: Blood Moon also wins the CB-Punishing Fire deck, that is quite difficult to beat.)

I'm not sure about Blood Moon's value against the 3 color tempo decks; it's value can change during the match and it's value is dependent on the board state. I did totally forget about the C/B Grove deck. That deck seems to be pretty popular at the moment and it gets shit on hard by Blood Moon.

Well, if you like Mogg Fanatic that much at least consider Tarfire in the main. As you say, Stoneforge Mystic is everywhere and this kills it dead, as well as all the other one toughness creatures that were mentioned. Also, it is a better spell in those games in which take on the control roll (which as of late turns out to be just about everything).

Personally, I'm not a big fan of Gempalm Incinerator. Sure it is uncounterable but it is way to board dependant for this meta. I'm not saying that people should cut him from the deck completely, rather that playing the full playset might not be the most optimal use of maindeck space.

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Well, if you like Mogg Fanatic that much at least consider Tarfire in the main. As you say, Stoneforge Mystic is everywhere and this kills it dead, as well as all the other one toughness creatures that were mentioned. Also, it is a better spell in those games in which take on the control roll (which as of late turns out to be just about everything.

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This is an older discussion, so I'm not saying anything new.

I've tried it again, and I wasn't impressed. Yeah, Tarfire stops SFM from making a nasty turn 3 Batterskull which they couldn't make otherwise. If you go first, Incinerator is often capable of doing this for us on turn 3. Going second, of course, Tarfire has a major advantage. Batterskull is rough, but manageable with TSH (we can afford a few hits from it). The real equipment pieces to fear are SoFI and Jitte, but it doesn't usually matter if I can answer SFM on turn 3, as they can still drop the SoFI or Jitte hardcast. Tarfire doesn't stop that, although it does give them one less body to equip, which may or may not be true with Fanatic (depends).

Our problem with SFM is really just a problem with the equipment, not with the tempo of SFM and uncounterability of equipment (which is what most decks fear). I don't mind if SFM sits on the table so much, I mind the equipment wrecking my board. Getting rid of SFM (with Tarfire, for example) doesn't really solve the problem. Artifact removal does solve it.

On a different note, the fact that Tarfire is Tribal isn't a huge deal when we are trying to replace Fanatic, as Fanatic is really only good when Goyf isn't dominating the metagame (which it isn't). So, I don't hold Tribal as a huge strike, just a minor one.

The huge strike against Tarfire is that it lacks synergy with the other cards in the deck. Fanatic, unlike Tarfire, improves the value of these cards more effectively:

Incinerator
Piledriver
Vial
Chieftain (if you play it)

Fanatic synergizes better with the deck, and that is very much at the core of what makes Goblins a good deck.

The fact is that I swing with Mogg Fanatic very often is really what makes him so much better. If I was just using him exclusively as removal, then Tarfire would become better.

I can see cutting 1 Fanatic for Tarfire though. There are cases where I want to Matron for a Tarfire.

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Personally, I'm not a big fan of Gempalm Incinerator. Sure it is uncounterable but it is way to board dependant for this meta. I'm not saying that people should cut him from the deck completely, rather that playing the full playset might not be the most optimal use of maindeck space.

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Part of the reason Incinerator might not be awesome for you is that you might not be playing Mogg Fanatic. If you aren't playing Lightning Bolts and Tarfires, and you aren't running higher-CC goblins, you'll find that Incinerator is commonly online from start to finish.

Multiple Incinerators have been a great thing in my experience. I want to see at least one in almost every game, and I'm happy to see multiples throughout a game. Incinerator isn't merely a 2-for-1. Incinerator taxes your opponent's tempo (they had to spend resources on their creature), making it one of the best 2-for-1's out there. Perhaps when Incinerator is a bad card, Goblins might be a bad deck in the metagame.

The fact that it has a body is also significant. There are times where I just need threat density, and the fact that he doubles as the best removal card in the deck and a beater in a pinch is pretty phenomenal.

There are two issues I see with Incinerator:

1) There is board dependence in the sense that you actually have to get creatures on the board. Incinerator seems dead if Goblins isn't "doing its thing" or when it is "losing". In general play, Incinerator is good at any point before you would start chump blocking (and, once you are chump blocking, the odds of winning begin to plummet). At any board state better than chump blocking, I think Incinerator carries its own weight. It isn't just for when you are even or winning, Incinerator helps you when you are down (just as long as you are too down against your opponent).

2) Incinerator is vulnerable to removal in response. This is something you have to play around. Just as you don't tap out for a vital card in the face of Daze, you shouldn't use Incinerator when a bolt or StP would fizzle the effect, not unless you absolutely have to use it, regardless of the vulnerability (sometimes you have to bite the bullet and hope they don't have the answer).

I've really enjoyed the full playset. I can see going down 3, but even that might be a mistake. What would you run in its place?


peace,
4eak

My list for reference:

//lands [23]
5 Mountain
2 Taiga
2 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port

//Core [25]
-1 Goblin Warchief

//Flex [12]
3 Tarfire
2 Gempalm Incinerator
2 Mogg War Marshal
2 Stingscourger
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin Chieftain
1 Tin Street Hooligan

//Sideboard [15]
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Pyrokinesis
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Tormod's Crpyt
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Tin Street Hooligan


First things first, I honestly doubt Gempalm's ability to kill Stoneforge Mystic on the play in the early game. If they are on the draw they likely won't keep a hand that doesn't have a solution to a turn 1 Lackey (current Snapcaster Mage decks run Swords to Plowshares, Ghastly Demise or Lightning Bolt). If they kill him and drop a mystic you have a turns worth to play additional goblins to get Gempalm online. For this you need 1RR in the best case scenario (Mogg Fanatic and cycling mana), probably more if we are being realistic. Even with 23 lands, getting the colours and the mana count right isn't as easy as it looks. It's even less so if you are playing fewer lands.

Tarfire is simply a significantly less mana intensive way of getting rid of some of the more dangerous early creatures you might encounter in most metagames. You can kill the mystic before it does it's thing and still have mana for a Port activation or another creature.
I agree that the equipment card pose a problem, but there is no reason to let them cheat those cards into play (even if it is only a Sword of F&I). We need to force them to play those cards fair and square (with Wasteland and Rishadan Port shenanigans on the side of course).

Additional good points in it's favor is that it can easily take out the lords in Merfolk before there are too many of them to deal with. Don't know how relevant this will be for the SCG open but it couldn't hurt since it's a popular deck.

Hello everyone.
Long time reader of this thread/goblins player, first time poster. I took the following list to my local legacy tournament and ended up winning it.
List for reference:

lands:
4 wasteland
4 rishadan port
14 mountain

Goblins:
4 lackey
4 mogg war marshal
3 goblin piledriver
4 goblin chieftain
4 goblin warchief
4 goblin matron
4 goblin ringleader
4 gem palm incinerator
1 tuk tuk scrappers
1 siege gang commander
1 stingscourger

Other:
4 aether vial

Sideboard:
4 blood moon
4 leyline of the void
3 pyroblast
1 tuk tuk scrappers
2 sparksmith
1 goblin piledriver

My matches were dredge, burn, stiflenaught, and aggro loam. I beat everything pretty handily, with the exception of loam, which was just awful. It had punishing fire and seismic assault. Just horrible. Anyway, I can put up a more detailed report later if anyone is interested, but I have a few quick thoughts in regards to the deck.
I love playing 14 mountains. I built mono red as there are a fair amount of stifles in the room, even if I dodged most of them. Regardless, I think its where I want to be for the foreseeable future.

I also love the 4 chieftain/4 war marshal package, and urge you to try it if you haven't. Lackey into chieftain, play war marshal is such a beating, and I often found myself matroning for chieftain once I had vial active.

sparksmith was really good in testing versus delver and stoneforge, but I didn't play any of either. If you expect those decks, I would try it. Its not hateful against goyf, either. Its better then it looks with 8 haste granting lords.

Tuk tuk scrappers always felt horrible to draw, but I can't think of a better card in its slot for mono red. Unless I start seeing more stoneforge mystics locally, that slot might be more stingscourgers.

Any thoughts?