No mana cost, and it can allow you to alpha strike. I'm not thrilled about any of the one-shot protection spells by any means. Even Shining Shoal seems better, since it's another trick that can be used even in combat and as a direct damage spell.
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No mana cost, and it can allow you to alpha strike. I'm not thrilled about any of the one-shot protection spells by any means. Even Shining Shoal seems better, since it's another trick that can be used even in combat and as a direct damage spell.
OMG dude, stop saying cards that protect your creatures. You dont give a crap about your creatures dieing, you want to protect your equipment and your summon sick mother of runes. The fact that it has this little bonus vs combo/alpha strike potential, makes it good, imo.
I'll try a couple of those this sturday since my meta is 50% GW maverick and let you know how it went.
This deck is not looking to alpha strike our opponents, this deck looks for value and grindy games.
It also looks to have better topdecks than your opponent. Protection cards don't fit that bill.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcannys
Am I missing something? If Mom is sick, then your creatures are prone to removal. Also, none of these spells protect us from Combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcannys
I personally don't care if they spend time to blow up Library or Equipment. That means they spent mana/cards/resources to destroy a non-threat. Besides, that's what Eternal Witness is for - Buyback.
Mother of runes is the best card in this deck, if you untap with it, you'll win 90% of those games, you dont give a crap if they stp your KotR.
If mom is sick THERE's NO WAY they kill any other creature but mom.
I'm actualy thinking about going up to 4 stoenforge, adding a second jitte, the sylhana eldgewalker and a couple of those faith's shelds. That would give the deck a new dimension and an edge in the mirror imo.
I was actualy trying to think of a situation in which this card is 100% dead, and i just can figure it out. Every deck runs removal, artifact removal, jace bounce, etc.. And it has this bonus against combo and the alpha strike potential.
I'm not a fan of pushing up our mana curve especially with things we can't tutor up unless it's absolutely busted.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
An active defensive Mom stops Thrun + Jitte...
Right - I said the deck runs plenty of answers to equipment, which it does (4x GSZ + 2-3 Pridemages maindeck, potentially more answers postboard, especially red splashes running Ancient Grudge).Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
If you read my post, Natural Order is tech for the mirror. Honestly, I don't think there's any real crutch in Maverick. The deck is designed on redundancy and flexibility. Most changes people talk about here generally don't affect that aspect of the deck that much.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
Most of the lists still run aven mindcensor and Progenitus can easily be raced in this deck.
I think we've beat the horse enough for now.
Let's talk about sideboarding. What strategies have you guys employed for the major archetypes (and taking out/bringing in - details!)?
RUG Delver (w/ and w/o Stifle)
Burn & UR Delver
UW/x Stoneblade
Reanimator
Dredge
Storm combo
BUG Control / Hymn+Blue decks
Deadguy / Junk
Zoo / 2-3 color Sligh
I'm not convinced Mindcensor is good. On top of that, since I've been playing a pFires list, it's not really that threatening. The only time you have to worry about it is if they try and gotcha you and you just play around that if you suspect it.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcannys
My experience playing against NO has been that Progenitus can only be raced late game IF you have a big Knight + equipment. If they have that, they've probably got the game won regardless of Progenitus or not.
However, if you Natural Order on turns 3-5, you've probably got the game won.
RUG delver: i go +2 path to exile +2 choke -light and shadow, -2 qasali, -1 something elseQuote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
UW blade: +2 choke +2nature's claim+1elspeth+1garruk -4 swords-2something else
reanimator: +2 surgical+2path+1 bojuka -equipment package.
Dredge:+1 rhox war monk +2 surgical+2path-body and mind-2 qasalis- something else
Storm: +3 canonist +2 surgical - equipment package
BUg control: +2 finks +1 elspeth +1 garruk - gadock - some equipment -sometihng else
Zoo: +1 rhox war monk+2 path +2 finks+1 elspeth -gaddock, - not sure here, depends on their list (SFM, punishing fire, etc..)
This is my SB:
SB: 2 [GTW] Path to Exile
SB: 1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
SB: 3 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [FBP] Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
SB: 2 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 1 [ISD] Garruk Relentless/Garruk, the Veil-Cursed
SB: 1 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
SB: 2 [FNM] Kitchen Finks
Mindcensor is not good, But until now (thalia), it was the best option for that 2-3 slots.Quote:
I'm not convinced Mindcensor is good. On top of that, since I've been playing a pFires list, it's not really that threatening. The only time you have to worry about it is if they try and gotcha you and you just play around that if you suspect it.
My experience playing against NO has been that Progenitus can only be raced late game IF you have a big Knight + equipment. If they have that, they've probably got the game won regardless of Progenitus or not.
However, if you Natural Order on turns 3-5, you've probably got the game won.
Since my SB these days is still in flux (I like playing around with different options to see what works for me), I'll detail what I take out more than bring in.Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
I'm playing pFires (as if anyone who has been reading this thread recently at all doesn't know), so that's also a consideration here.
RUG Delver (w/ and w/o Stifle)
-2 Qasali Pridemage
-3 Stoneforge Mystic
+2 Path to Exile
+1 Maze of Ith
+2 Red Elemental Blast
Burn & UR Delver
-Not currently playing any particular tech for Burn since it hasn't been showing up in my meta, but probably take out stuff like Qasali's and add more removal / REBs
UW/x Stoneblade
-4 Swords to Plowshares
+3 REB
+any Chokes
Reanimator
-3 SFM
-3 Equipment
-3 Punishing Fires
+2 PtE
+1 Maze of Ith
+3 REB
+2 Tormod's Crypt
+1 Bojuka Bog
Dredge
-4 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Punishing Fires
-1 Thrun, the Last Troll
+2 Tormod's Crypt
+1 Bojuka Bog
+3 REB
Storm combo
-3 SFM
-4 StP
-1 Thrun
-1 Qasali
+3 REB
+2 Tormod's Crypt
+1 Bojuka Bog
+2 Canonist
BUG Control / Hymn+Blue decks
-Qasali / StP
+REB / Choke
Deadguy / Junk
-Depends on builds. PFires is better against Deadguy than against Junk. Qasali stays in against the builds running SFM.
+Graveyard hate, PtE/Maze package
Zoo / 2-3 color Sligh
-1 Qasali Pridemage
-1 Gaddock Teeg
-1 SFM
+2 PtE
+1 Maze
This is absolutely not true.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcannys
The best card in the deck, and in fact the entire reason to play the deck, is Knight of the Reliquary. Let's just get that out of the way right now. Like the deck's reason for being is that a lot of decks just lose to Knight; anything RUG for instance.
The best argument for Mother of Runes in the deck, and in fact the only argument for it, is to protect your Knights from StP. It is only because of that unfavorable two card interaction that there is a reason for running the card at all. If you removed Knight, the deck would not exist; if you removed StP, Mom would be awful.
Without understanding this there's no way to advance a discussion of the deck intelligently. Equipment and other tricks exist as a backup to Knight, but she's route to victory #1.
I would encourage this as it's an interesting and potentially powerful card that I've been curious about since its printing. Probably won't pan out but no reason not to see.Quote:
I'm actualy thinking about going up to 4 stoenforge, adding a second jitte, the sylhana eldgewalker and a couple of those faith's shelds. That would give the deck a new dimension and an edge in the mirror imo.
If they have to use Mother of Runes as a Drudge Skeletons then it's not exactly a threat, even if you don't have an Elspeth or StP or Wave or some other way of getting past that line of defense. A lone Mother of Runes is a pretty weak defense, ultimately, which was the reason I cut the card (besides it being a weak standalone card and even before the format had adapted to it; I think it was borderline before and obviously incorrect now.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
@Ruckus:
My current SB Plan is as follows:
2x Path to Exile
2x Eternal Witness
4x Tormod's Crypt
1x Gaddock Teeg
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x Nevermore
Still paired with this maindeck;
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Scavening Ooze
2x Qasali Pridemage
2x Tarmogoyf
4x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Eternal Witness
2x Thrun, the Last Troll
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Sensei's Divining Top
2x Sylvan Library
3x Umezawa's Jitte
2x Elspeth, Knight Errant
2x Parallax Wave
1x Maze of Ith
2x Wasteland
3x Horizon Canopy
1x Stirring Wildwood
1x Karakas
2x Dryad Arbor
4x Windswept Heath
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Forest
1x Plains
4x Savannah
Against RUG you go:
-2 Elspeth
-2 Pridemage
+2 Witness
+2 Path
Against Blade Control:
-4 StP
- Some other stuff I haven't decided yet, likely incuding Hierarchs
+2 Witness
+3 Nevermore
+3 Thalia
The idea here is that both Thalia and Nevermore are effective answers to their strategy of StPing infinite of your guys with Snapcaster (although I haven't actually tested Thalia in this match yet.)
Mirror is going to depend somewhat on how they're built, but bringing in +2 Path, +2 Witness is going to be your general go-to strategy against midrange creature-based decks.
Also, can I go into a side-rant here about how fucking ridiculous all the 1x Elspeth lists are? Like, what the fuck are you people living in terror of, the scenario where you have active Elspeth and then you lose because you have the second one in hand and gee it could've been a Scryb Ranger or whatever else you would run in that slot? Because surprise, that doesn't fucking happen.
FWIW, I think IBA's Jitte numbers are probably the right way to go going forward. Jitte still performs all the junctions that the other equipment do, except provide stand alone protection. Just like it was during Kamigawa block, whoever maintains Jitte active (and isn't afraid to Legend-nuke their opponent's copy) will eventually take control and win.
Adding a 2nd Jitte in the SB is definitely right, and the third is probably right too.
It's more like, "Gee, that could have been a Thrun". See, with so many Wastelands, Stifles, and Spell Pierces roaming around, running six maindeck 4-drops only seems like a good idea if you're Jack Elgin.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
At least the way I built the deck RUG Tempo is a ludicriously favored matchup, so that argument is pretty irrelevant. With eight 1cc mana rampers you really want to be able to play enough powerful cards that you can overwhelm other attrition based decks like Blade Control and the mirror.
And unlike Thrun you can't tutor for an Elspeth. The Waves are questionable, but a minimum of 2x Elspeth should be mandatory in these lists. And that's assuming at least 2 Libraries.
What's you justification for only 2 wastes, given the RUG/BUG/nonbasics running around currently? They were an auto 4-of for me. Also, Parallax Wave seems a weird choice imo, esp. given the dudes you could be running (aven mindcensor, for example, straight-up wins you games). Also, jitte's good an all, but Sword of Fire and Ice/Feast and Famine/Batterskull give you more to work with. Maybe I'm missing something here.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
TheInfamousBearAssassin,
I like your sideboard. I think you're running a little heavy on the Crypts, but besides that, pretty solid.
-Matthew
I know that Parallax Wave seems like an odd choice, but, while I hate to fall back on this, I really think that it's important that anyone who's never played with the card do so. It's actually a very powerful card. These are the things it does;
- Nuke an opponent's defense and allow you to easily kill them for the turn or two they're without blockers (even with a Mom active.)
- Protect your own team from mass removal or even pinpoint removal.
- Combo with Pridemage to permanently exile a bevy of guys.
- Combo with Witness to get it back and keep their team exiled unless they break the loop.
It's actually a very powerful and flexible card.
As for cutting SFM and the associated package, I really find that, more so even now than in previous metas, there's little incentive to grab an equipment that's not Jitte, so the extra mana you pay for SFM gets you little. Jitte is much better to draw than the average of whatever other equipment you're running (meaning that yes, sometimes you rawdraw a SoFI where it's amazing, but on average a drawn SoFI is worse than a drawn Jitte,) and it's the most common tutor target, so there's no real reason to run another equipment that I can see, at least in the current meta.
Part of the plan of my build is also to get Thrun active with a Jitte against control, and on Thrun Jitte is much better than any given Sword of Herpaderp as it deals with the chump blocking problem. Trollstick is a plan few decks in the metagame can beat.
I'm not sure I even understand the Wasteland question. Against what matchup is it important enough to have more than double Wasteland that the manabase should be distorted further? I don't mind skipping one turn of attacking with Knight to try and nuke a key land, but anything past that and I'd rather be attacking. It's mainly there to take out Maze and Riptide Lab and other utility lands, not to try and craft a mana denial strategy.
@Matt: Thanks. I just find 4x Crypt to be a really reliable way to give yourself favorable matchups that would otherwise be nightmares, and I'm not sure what else is compelling enough to go to 3. Although I've wondered if a 2/2 Crypt/Faerie Marcabre split would be better.
All I see with Jitte off the draw is spell snare fodder, and while Stoneforge is too, if it sticks you get the card advantage. Also, stoneforge can't be touched by spell pierce.
Further, against the mirror, or a deck with big dudes (Reanimator) and Sword of Cool & Awesome keeps your Thrun alive, whereas Jitte just gets a few counters. A batterskull spells GG in certain matchups. Also, the diversity is just nice to have--3x jitte is consistent, sure, but I like to know that I have more answers than just that.
The wasteland question pertains to the greedier decks of legacy. RUG, for example, or Zoo. A T1/2 wasteland can be back-breaking against certain decks, and I don't want to rely on KotR to fetch it out. Also, I'm not seeing the level of destabilization your talking about (at least in my manabase).