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Do the majority of Dredge decks have a way of dealing with Leyline once its in play? or is it typically game if it sticks?
Faeries are instant and uncounterable, but only exile two cards. If I pick the correct two cards (assuming its turn 1 or 2) will that pretty much cripple your ability to go off?
Leyline or Macabre.
Leyline = free, uncounterable, and protects your Bridges
Macabre = free, uncounterable, and feeds Ichorid
I think Leyline is better because Bridge is more useful without Ichorids, than Ichorids are without Bridges.
He's actually trying to hate on dredge. Not play this card on Dredge's sideboard.Quote:
Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk
It depends on the deck you are playing, running Leyline and hoping to draw it in your opener, having no mana to actually hardcast it makes it bad, granted if it resolves the Dredge player has to remove itQuote:
Originally Posted by namrufmot
Faerie Macabre can easily just do nothing against Dredge as well, but you can hit a few key cards to slow them down
Crypt and Relic are both easy to play around and Chalice only slows Dredge down it does not cripple them
What do you expect the Dredge players to Sideboard to combat your hate?
I am assuming you are playing Maverick or Junk by the Faerie Macabre suggestion over Surgical Extraction?
There's no difference between Force of Will in the aggro-control match up and Lion's Eye Diamond in the Dredge match up vs Storm, both decks have to either aggressively mulligan into the card on the draw or on the play respectively, and I don't see the difference between aggro-control Brainstorming and Pondering for Force of Will and Dredge Careful Studying and Faithless Looting for Lion's Eye Diamond at all, you're seriously underestimating Dredge's ability to cantrip IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by chags
You don't just cut Lion's Eye Diamond for Tireless Tribe, I don't know if you've noticed yet in your 4 years of playing Dredge but Lion's Eye Diamond isn't just an outlet, it's a mana source for 8 of your draw spells. Any Dredge deck that cuts Lion's Eye Diamond is basically consigning itself to +3 Tarnished Citadel before anything else. You can't play Tireless Tribe unless you cut another 2 cards at a minimum and they're going to be an Ichorid and a Golgari Thug pretty much every time.
I don't know where you guys get this idea that LEDless has more SB space than LED, yes you always SB out LED but you always SB in Ashen Ghoul regardless of whether or not you play LEDless or LED anyway. The only difference between my LEDless SB and my LED SB is a whopping 1 space for an extra Tarnished Citadel.
I'm sure LEDless is playable in a heavy aggro-control environment where the ability to race before turn 3 isn't particularly relevant, I play a LEDless list pretty much anytime I loan my TES list to a friend and manage to do ok with it personally.
Sorry I forgot to mention that I am playing Gobbos...I'm torn between a package of Leylines, Relics, Cages, or Faeries...I have 6 empty SB slots. Just wondering what YOU guys would hate to see...Quote:
Originally Posted by Fizzeler
Hello folk,
made a rather dissappointing 3-3 today in a 52 people tournament.
Played some list..Quadlaser - 2 PImps, - 1 Thug
+2 Darkblast, +1 DR (to safe the one sideboard slot), put the Darkblast in there because I saw some amount of Peacekeeper the last few times, but again..not even played versus one. I never dredged them, never played them.. can't say much to them I guess..
M1 vs Death n Taxes
G1 Win
G2 Wasteland, Jitte make my (un)life hard, I get him to 1 before I die =(
G3 Mull to 4, Land, Darkblast (!), Imp and I dont know what else.. thought I could keep it, if he casts a Mother as usual I could kill it and dredge..
Well his first creature was a t2 Thalia, followed by two Ports and I die before I can cast anything, a few "timewalks" while getting 8 cards in hand are to much and I die.
0-1
M2 vs Stiflenought
G1 He has a t1 Delver, t2 Dreadnought but scoops to my 16/16 Troll + 10 Zombies.
G2 Mull to 6, got a Land, Dredger, 2 Draw Spells, keep.. he plays Cage, t2 Dreadnought brings me down before I can destroy his cage.
G3 I start and win.
1-1
M3 vs I felt bad for playing this game.
He had a Portal starter Deck..
2-1
M4 vs Dredge
G1 He starts, has the nuts and kills me t2.
G2 He mulls agressive to Leyline but keeps a lose 5card hand without it, my t2 Elesh let him scoop.
G3 Again he mulls to Leyline, has a 5 card hand with it, I kept my 7 with Dredgers, 2 Lands & draw spells, find a Nature's Claim when he had 5 Lands in play (his start hand wasnt really good^^) and won (with 2 cards left in my library but 15 Zombies, 3 Ichorids and a 12/12 Troll).
3-1
M5 vs Lands
G1 he starts and after t3 he got the Exploration,Crucible,Wasteland,Bog - Lock. (& Karakas)
G2 I mull to 4 before I find a land and lose.
Still made a huge mistake here.. played a land withouth anything that I could cast (probably because I was a little frustrated..still stupid) since he wasted it t1 (again). Otherwhise I could have cast an PImp T3 which I drew, don't think I could have won it because he was actually pretty fast (fast lands deck.. well..with the lock..still..)
3-2
M6 Vs Sneak & Show
G1 He starts with Island, Ponder, Lotus Petal
Last time I played vs him he was on Reanimator, I had a Therapy in hand and wanted to cast it on my first turn for Entomb/Reanimate, but since he played the Petal I randomly said Show n Tell and did hit it. (Otherwise he had t2 Grisel/Emrakul (both in hand). Win on t3.
G2 T2 Emrakul + Cage with Force backup when I tried to destroy it.
G3 Got no Therapy, he starts with 2 Cages + Force.. yeah..
Well... the Dark Blasts were of no use.. I really thought I'd play versus some Peacekeepers (in Enchantress & Miracel.Deck but again I managed to dodge them..)
The Dread Return Package (1 Main, 1 Sideboard + Elesh & Iona Sideboard) were of no really use either.. well I guess g2 in the mirror Elesh did help, but I probably I would have won without her aswell..
Really dissappointing.. M3 was actually a bye =/ (don't know how he managed to win a match (since he was 1-1 when he played against me)).
Btw. there were 9 (!) Burn players.. (a group of friends who thought it would be fun if everyone brings burn..).
Honestly, if you don't have to worry about Reanimator then Leyline of the Void is the card that I hate to see because I have to more or less scoop game 2 and over board game 3. If you have to worry about Reanimator, I think you want to play a combination of Surgical Extraction and Tormod's Crypt post-board to differentiate your hate vs Cabal Therapy and to be able to prevent the opponent from blowing you out game 3 with Lion's Eye Diamond when you're on the draw and can't play Tormod's Crypt pre-emptively.Quote:
Originally Posted by namrufmot
Faerie Macabre is only a card you'll use if you expect Reanimator IMO.
I had a game 2 that I saw no leyline of the void's from my opponent, just surgical extractions, so game 3 i didn't run any enchant destruction and at the start of game 3 he starts & has 1 in hand, putting it in play, so dumb! lol
So taking my Dredge build to an unknown meta local legacy tournament tomorrow, my board and deck are fleshed out as I like it
Only thought was cutting 2 PImps for a 3rd Dread Return and Flayer, I don't think it is a good call as my deck is explosive enough to win by turn 2-4 and I should not need the flayer
Also, anyone have any luck with Ghoultree, I have a playset not sure if they help the deck or not?
I had some brief success with Ghoultree out of the board in an LED build not too long ago, but I don't know if it's better than Ashen Ghoul. Dredging into Ashen Ghoul is much more probable than open-handing a Ghoultree with a way to dump a dredger and potentially having to wait another turn to be able to cast him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fizzeler
Flayer in some LED builds is just overkill, and I think Final Fortune was correct at some point earlier when he mentioned that Dread Return, while strong, isn't always necessary. Flayer is still good and can facilitate some fast kills without attacking, so it does have its merits.
Noted, I use Nether Shadow over Ghoul (easy to interchange if I wanted to go Manaless and I like the odd Revised art), I may do some more testing to see how Tree is, I can see him being great against someone who sides in Cage or tries to cripple you with Crypt/RelicQuote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
I thought Flayer was a bit overkill as well (save manaless where I see him as another way to just win) so for now I'll pass on it
I still need Angel Of Despair for the board
On another note Shambling Shell, save manaless builds, is there any way to abuse this guy? He pumps your guys and can sac himself to trigger Bridges. I guess the reason not run him is he only Dredges 3 and is 1GB to cast
I wouldn't run him, because Darkblast is X times better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fizzeler
Manaless only runs him because that deck has no drawspells to find Dredgers, which means you need more dredgers to open with one. It's run in Manaless Dredge over Darkblast because it feeds Ichorids, and they are creatures that count for Nether Shadow.
Noted, I guess Darkblast is a ton better, still going to pick them up for Manaless thoughQuote:
Originally Posted by NecroYawgmoth
Izor, I am curious what you do to combat the GY hate you expect when heading to local tourneys? I know the overall meta is different in Europe than in the US, hence why I wonder what GY hate is prevalent?
I'm not certain Nether Shadow contributes as much as Ashen Ghoul post-board vs Surgical Extraction, I tried Nether Shadow for awhile and found it mediocre without Dread Returns to take advantage of ~8xNarcomoeba effects. Dread Returns required the removal of Breakthrough in addition to Lion's Eye Diamond, which I found rather sub-optimal because Breakthrough shouldn't be SBed out of Dredge nearly as much as people are SBing them out fwiw.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fizzeler
@thread
Isn't that the asshole who thinks Dakmor Salvage and Bloodghast are good? /facepalm "false logic" despite it never placing serious results more than the one time he managed to luck sack one big tournament compared to Quad Lazer ...
Out of topic: I really miss that clown aka JBulko for his trolling skills... anyway, Hollywood and Izor made a good job on beating the crap out of his fat ass.
On topic: Chags you made your point back there, and since you mentioned Tireless Tribe, tell me if you can, how it works in the place of LED (I don't have much time right now to test it asap) :smile:
About the SB Chain of Vapor and Nature's Claim, I only mention them because of this:As I stated before with different sentences, my words were directed not only to a single person, nor did I tried to attack anyone.Quote:
Storm: Leyline of sanctity? Iona?
Show and Troll: No idea if they get counter + turn 2 Emrakul... Maybe peacekeeper or sudden spoiling? Chain of vapor?
Painter/MUD: Nature's Claim?
Maybe FKZ can be useful too.
The list I run right now is very close to that of Hollywood
This is a good question. It really depends on let's say 'how local' the tournament is. If it's a very small one and I know pretty much all players there, it's something different than if I don't really know people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fizzeler
What I can say about the metagame here is that people like to splash their gy hate much more than I usually see in the SCG Open tops, I for instance face things like 2 Surgicals, 1 Crypt, 1 Relic, 1 Grafdiggers Cage pretty frequently. Things like that are pretty much the worst thing that can happen to you as a Dredge player, but if you expect it to happen and have a good sideboard, it's possible to beat anything.
I think I've told that story before, when someone showed me 10 dedicated hate cards against Dredge before the tournament and he said he's going to play all of them. This is of course not the rule. But it kind of shows that over here, people respect the power of this deck and if they know they usually lose to it more than egainst any other deck, they pack loads of hate cards. In other metagames, I feel, people try to just dodge Dredge much more than they actually prepare for it. I mean, everyone just throws some random three gy hoser cards into their legacy sideboard, because well.. that's what everyone does. For example, if I was facing the guy with the 10 hate cards, I would maybe just board my Nature's Claims to destroy his Equipment (it was a BW Stoneforge deck) and try to win with random beats, I don't know.
In general, no hate is really prevelant, it's really a mix. And people tend to find the cards that make most sense in their respective decks, or they just splash it. I usually always board anti hate, because I can assume that everyone has something against me post board. My sideboard consists of at least 8-10 anti graveyard hate cards, and I feel that that's what I pretty much have to do. Despite all that, I've never gone worse than 2-2 with the deck and I was able to make the finals in a good portion of tourneys. Strikingly, I seemed to be more successful with LEDless lists, mainly because through all the hate, having dorks in play on turn 1 can really make the difference. I'm not saying LEdless is better by any means now, but in such a metagame it might make more sense.
Main reason for shadow over ghoul is lack of ghoulsQuote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
I have seen Dredge lists run some crazy post board plans like Gravecrawlers for instance, I think Dakmor Salvage Bloodghast are decent, but Ichorid is much better
@Izor
I think that seems to be the underlying theme in metagames where Dredge is a factor, the people are much more prepared for it, as I said I split a local tourney because no one prepared for dredge. The last match I played was against my friend who I tested with previously so I told him how to hate out my deck, let me say that was hard and I ended up losing in 3
4 Leyline of the VoidQuote:
Originally Posted by namrufmot
or combination of
Surgicals and Graftdiggers
Surgicals targetting Ichorid correct?
Or would a combo of Surgicals and Faerie Macabres be better? Since I can play either of those when if Dredge goes first...