[Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

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Originally Posted by TraxDaMax

I haven't played this deck for a while so I am kind of rusty on the rulings. So I was wondering if we say have Griselbrand in the yard, they have an active Deathrite Shaman and I cast Shallow Grave, they try to remove GB and I entomb for Emrakul in response, does this allow for the shuffle effect before DRS's ability resolves? :confused:

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Yes, this works. The stack looks something like this:

Shallow Grave
DRS ability
Entomb.

Entomb resolves, Emrakul's ability will trigger, causing the stack to look something like this:

Shallow Grave
DRS ability
Emrakul trigger

Emrakul's trigger resolves first, as it is the last thing on the stack, shuffling the graveyard into your library. Then, the Deathrite's ability will fizzle due to having no target. Then Shallow Grave will resolve and grab nothing.


What you should do instead in that situation is what Holly said: Entomb for Griselbrand, let the DRS trigger resolve, then Shallow Grave resolves, getting you a Griselbrand, followed by drawing many cards and winning.

Note that this only applies to Shallow Grave and not Goryo's Vengeance, since Goryo's targets and Shallow Grave just gets the top creature card of your graveyard when it resolves.

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Originally Posted by Acclimation

Yes, this works. The stack looks something like this:

Shallow Grave
DRS ability
Entomb.

Entomb resolves, Emrakul's ability will trigger, causing the stack to look something like this:

Shallow Grave
DRS ability
Emrakul trigger

Emrakul's trigger resolves first, as it is the last thing on the stack, shuffling the graveyard into your library. Then, the Deathrite's ability will fizzle due to having no target. Then Shallow Grave will resolve and grab nothing.


What you should do instead in that situation is what Holly said: Entomb for Griselbrand, let the DRS trigger resolve, then Shallow Grave resolves, getting you a Griselbrand, followed by drawing many cards and winning.

Note that this only applies to Shallow Grave and not Goryo's Vengeance, since Goryo's targets and Shallow Grave just gets the top creature card of your graveyard when it resolves.

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Alright, thanks for the explanation!

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Originally Posted by Acclimation

What you should do instead in that situation is what Holly said: Entomb for Griselbrand, let the DRS trigger resolve, then Shallow Grave resolves, getting you a Griselbrand, followed by drawing many cards and winning.

Note that this only applies to Shallow Grave and not Goryo's Vengeance, since Goryo's targets and Shallow Grave just gets the top creature card of your graveyard when it resolves.

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And precisely why Shallow Grave is the 4 of, and not Goryo's Vengeance. And why, if you wanted, Shallow Grave works with Lion's Eye Diamond and other instant (or faster) speed discard effects in response.

The key to success with this deck (aside from drawing like Keranos, God of Stormdecks) is knowledge of the stack in conjunction with Shallow Grave.

For instance, suppose you have Griselbrand in your graveyard. Your opponent activates DRS to exile it.
You can respond by casting Entomb for Emrakul, put the trigger on the stack, then cast either Goryo's Vengeance or Shallow Grave to reanimate Emrakul.

The key feature is that the Emrakul GY shuffle trigger can be responded to profitably.

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Originally Posted by Koby

The key to success with this deck (aside from drawing like Keranos, God of Stormdecks) is knowledge of the stack in conjunction with Shallow Grave.

For instance, suppose you have Griselbrand in your graveyard. Your opponent activates DRS to exile it.
You can respond by casting Entomb for Emrakul, put the trigger on the stack, then cast either Goryo's Vengeance or Shallow Grave to reanimate Emrakul.

The key feature is that the Emrakul GY shuffle trigger can be responded to profitably.

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Very good points - 100% agree. Emrakul's shuffle trigger is a feature, not a drawback, in this deck. The fact that we act at instant speed on just about everything makes the deck deceptively powerful. You can usually just respond to what your opponent is doing to disrupt you effectively cutting off some of their resources.

I feel like wasting everyone's time with some failure, so buckle up.

Played in the SCG Open in STL last weekend (9/7), and went a lovely 1-3 drop.

List is same as always.

Preface: Saturday was my birthday, so friends came into town Friday night, and we spent all night getting hammered. Saturday was spent being surprisingly not hungover, but full of naps and food. Went out again that night, but didn't have much to drink, and got home before midnight. Spent 0 time playtesting during the weekend, haven't played Legacy in 2 weeks, and only played ANT for the last few times I played legacy. Decided to play the Onion Burst despite dropping the cash on a nm Grim Tutor.

Wake up Sunday at 7am, do the whole shower and wake up friends thing. We push out at around 850ish, stop for breakfast burritos, and show up at the venue at 920 to find out that Legacy Opens start at 9am now, and not 10am. The 6 of us decide to say fuck it and play anyway.

RD1: 0-2, really wish that an announcement was made the day before.

RD 2: Merfolk (2-0)

Lose the dice roll, draw opening hand see Entomb, Gravex 2, Dark Rit x2, Entomb, Lotus Petal. Goryo. Definitely a keeper. Opponent goes Island>Vial pass. I draw my card, it's a 3rd Shallow Grave. Without hesitation, #yolo slam the Petal>rit>rit> Entomb. He has no responses. Draw 14, get Emrakul, swing for win.

+2 Needle +3 Chain -3 Probe -2 LDV

Game 2 I get something to the extent of Swamp, fetch, entomb, grave x2, goryo, Probe. Kept it. Opponent opens with Island, go. I draw Therapy, Probe and see Cursecatcher, Swan Songx2, cavern, lord, and Silvergill Adept x2. Play swamp, attempt to Therapy, it gets countered. Next turn he plays land, drops Curse Catcher. I draw a land. Decide to chuck out the Entomb- he lets it resolve! The next 3 turns involve casting reanimation into counterspells (flashbacked cabal therapy, get another bird from counter). Eventually, I have 4 lands, cast Goryo, he forces and is tapped out with no cards in hand, and I cast my 5th reanimation spell- the look of defeat on his face was great. End up getting there.

1-1
Rd 3: Sneak Attack (0-2)

Lose dice roll, keep hand that just needs an Entomb. Look at his hand at one point and see 3 Sneak Attack and some cantrips. We both spin our wheels until he smacks me with Emrakul. I fire off a Tendrils (5 storm) to bring him down to 6 and keep me alive at 11, but he draws into another Emrakul the next turn.

+2 Surgical +1 Silence +2 Needle +2 Chain -4 Probe -2 LDV -1 Ponder

Similar to the above hand, keep a hand that just needs to draw an Entomb. Strip Sneak Attack from his hand, leaving Through the Breach. He eventually Breaches Emrakul. We play struggle magic for the next 9 turns. Naturally, I draw nothing and he finally draws into Emrakul.

1-2

Rd 4: BUG Delver (1-2)

Game 1 I leverage discard to slow him down, and manage to bin Griselbrand. Attempted to Reanimate, but it got Forced, and get off a dark rit>Shallow. He manages to stifle a Griselbrand draw, forcing me to attack. Ended up drawing into Children and finishing him off with Tendrils.

-1 Reanimate -4 Probe +1 Silence +2 Needle +2 Chains

Game 2 He sticks an early DRS and has counters for both of my Needles. I slowly die to Goyf and TNN beats.

Game 3 Ends up being a slugfest. He ends up double Bob-ing it and getting there with Goyf.

1-3

At this point, I decide to call it quits, since I figured that my breakers were awful and even winning the next 5 rounds might not get me money. Other friends were also doing terrible, so we talked about leaving and going to STL to pal around for the rest of the day. Instead of leaving though, we find out that our friend Caleb is 3-1 with Manaless Dredge, so we stick it out. Ended up getting some store credit with SCG and debated about what to pick up. After watching Caleb win the next 2 rounds easily to be 5-1, I decide to price out Manaless and bought most of the deck. Also played in a side draft and won it. At the end of the day, friend went 5-4, got 65th like a scrub, and we left to get pizza.

Props:
Breakfast burritos
t1 wins
winning through a mountain of counterspells
beating nerds in side events
getting attention for existing another revolution around the sun
jungle juice
coconut water to prevent hangovers
pizza
friends
adventures
pocket squares and ties
paying $75 to own 90% of Manaless dredge.

Slops:

SCG for starting Legacy at 9am and not 10am, the bastards
Entomb for being hard to draw

So, yeah. Failed at tournament magic, but still had a blast of a weekend. I still would play the same 75 again. Legacy is difficult to find around me and my schedule is pretty tight between school and work, so I don't get to play as much as I would like.

I played about 30 sideboardless games the other day vs UWr delver, Pun Jund, and ANT, and boy did I get my butt kicked. Delver's wastelands, Stifle and StP hurt bad. Jund's turn one DRS or thoughtseize and turn 2 Hymn aswell although I feel that matchup can really be about luck of the draw. Against ANT I had the mist succes, although for him turn 1-ing me happened more frequently then the other way around. I think in all the games I probably won like 6-7 out of 30 which gets me to think I need some more practise before taking it to a tourny again. Two years ago I was doing just fine with it, don't know what went wrong :)

Anyone else think Treasure Cruise has huge potential in this deck? Looks like it could really push the deck to another level of consistency.

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Originally Posted by cogitoergosum

Anyone else think Treasure Cruise has huge potential in this deck? Looks like it could really push the deck to another level of consistency.

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We don't get that many cards into the graveyard fast enough to be good. 7 cards is a lot, if you are lucky you could probably have it active turn 3. I would look at Dig Through Time first to use as a "late game" to help find what we need.

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Originally Posted by cogitoergosum

Anyone else think Treasure Cruise has huge potential in this deck? Looks like it could really push the deck to another level of consistency.

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Having a Delve draw cardin hand while just missing one piece will mean a mulligan, where with a ponder/brainstorm you could keep that hand. If you can't use it t1, (except for LDV) then it's not better then the aforementioned. On top of that, the list is tight as it is already. I'd even prefer a Intuition over the delve draws.

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Originally Posted by cogitoergosum

Anyone else think Treasure Cruise has huge potential in this deck? Looks like it could really push the deck to another level of consistency.

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Dig Through Time actually looks more useful since we care more about card quality than quantity. 7 cards deep plus draw 2 isn't anything to sneeze at, but the most likely spot for it to take is LDV, and I'm hesitant to say it's any better than that.

I'm still more interested in Empty the Pits as a possible transformational board, because I have a big irrational hard-on for transformational sideboards.

I think this deck is as good as it can be. Richard's sideboard fetish aside, we just have to mulligan right and get a little lucky. Graveyard hate is at a critical mass as far as multiplicity is concerned. Beat it or lose. It's a glass cannon, but it's power is immense. I so far don't find either card good enough. I'd go back to playing 2 snapcaster before either of these.

Hello, guys, do you think KTK new card "Dig Through Time" fits for our deck?

I did some test myself, replacing 2 Lim Dul's Vault with 2 Dig Through Time.

well, actully, having 6 cards to delve is really easy as we have tons of fetchlands, cantrips and discards in early turns.

everytime I get that card, I can delve 6 to cast it. I know this card can't assure that we find that damn entomb, but "Dig 7 for 2 cards" is still strong, with card advantage and no life loss at all.

What do you think:smile:

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Originally Posted by entreri_fans

Hello, guys, do you think KTK new card "Dig Through Time" fits for our deck?

I did some test myself, replacing 2 Lim Dul's Vault with 2 Dig Through Time.

well, actully, having 6 cards to delve is really easy as we have tons of fetchlands, cantrips and discards in early turns.

everytime I get that card, I can delve 6 to cast it. I know this card can't assure that we find that damn entomb, but "Dig 7 for 2 cards" is still strong, with card advantage and no life loss at all.

What do you think:smile:

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Pretty sure LDV is the better card here: always costs 2 mana, instant, can see more than 7 cards and can potentially get us 3-5 necessary/useful cards.

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Originally Posted by Acclimation

Pretty sure LDV is the better card here: always costs 2 mana, instant, can see more than 7 cards and can potentially get us 3-5 necessary/useful cards.

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LDV is -1 card, DTT is +1. I don't see how they're comparable in a combo deck. I love LDV more than most people, but dig helps refuel and generate CA.

I feel that delve undercuts you. I mean, if grave hate hits the board, what would you rather have, DTT or LDV? I want LDV every time.

One of the biggest strengths of LDV is using it as a t2 Vampiric Tutor to go into a t3 win.

The Delve spells can't reliably set that up.

Maybe it's just me, but I'm excited by the thought of Dark Ritual -> Dig Through Time. Think about it more as 2UU double demonic tutor on turn 2 or 3, and just UU if you try and fail to go off. I haven't tested it in TinFins (I've got a bunch of decks on my bucket list!), but it's worth testing. The power level is just so high.

Lion's Eye Diamond seems decent suddenly.
Although it makes Emrakul bad.

I continue to feel that UU mana cost is a little hard to achieve in most games. Yes, we do run many Islands, but the games we're struggling are against mana denial, Daze + Spell Pierce decks. In these games we need the DTT to recoup, and in those games are where UU is a liability.