Kolgan Command can counter the miracles tho, instant discard!
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Kolgan Command can counter the miracles tho, instant discard!
Well what about flusterstorm storm instead of swan song?Quote:
Originally Posted by aluisiocsantos
I'm confused, what's wrong with Pyro?Quote:
Originally Posted by jim111589
Just for more counters. I'd think flusterstorm would be better since it creates copiesQuote:
Originally Posted by iGrok
Often, they will be able to pay for fluster (trust me, I play blue combo ^^). Fluster shines in situations like this:Quote:
Originally Posted by jim111589
[Spell you need to counter]
[Your Counterspell]
[Their Counterspell]
[Your Flusterstorm for 4 copies] - Sometimes you can throw a Brainstorm in there for extra value!
It doesn't do so well like this:
[Spell you need to counter]
[Flusterstorm for 2 copies]
[They pay 2] OR my favorite, [They pay 1 and force the other copy]
Pyroblast being a hard counter, AND countering TNN AND countering/killing Delver, Counterbalance, Jace, Clique makes it way more scary to fight against than Flusterstorm from a non-blue deck.
But mostly, it comes down to this:
I'm pretty sure there are more must-kill/must-counter blue permanents than there are must-counter non-blue spells.
^ Yes.
You don't NEED flusterstorm, realistically, if you want to increase stack based interaction, the card that does it is FoW and we're not playing it :P Plus, cascading into FS seems like bad news.
The deck has an alright combo matchup. If you're very concerned, try Mindbreak Trap.
With this list:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Bloodbraid Elf
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Punishing Fire
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Sylvan Library
3 Liliana of the Veil
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Bayou
1 Taiga
3 Badlands
3 Wasteland
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
1 Swamp
SB: 2 Slaughter Games
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 1 Golgari Charm/Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
Your postboard against combo is like (say, Omni):
+2 Slaughter Games
+2 Grip
+3 REB
+2 Choke
+2 Duress
+1 charm
-4 Abrupt Decay
-4 Punishing Fire
-4 Bloodbraid Elf
It's enough incidental hate. For Storm:
+2 Slaughter Games
+2 Duress
+1 Charm
+2 Cage
+1 Ooze
-4 Decay
-4 BBE
Went to a 65 player tourney yesterday, went 4-1 (12th place), felt nice winning a bit after a 1-1-2 last time I played.. Got 15 fate reforged boosters, which really meant a Tasigur.
Oh also the first big tourney with brand new shiny The Source playmat:
http://i.imgur.com/kHPiwzy.jpg
My list:
1 Tombstalker
2 Bloodbraid Elf
3 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Courser of Kruphix
2 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Kolaghan's Command
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
2 Sylvan Library
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Badlands
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Bayou
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wasteland
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Choke
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Golgari Charm
2 Pyroblast
1 Null Rod
1 Slaughter Games
2 Duress
1 Chains of Mephistofeles
1 Toxic Deluge
Matches were:
Round 1 - Goblins. Pretty straightforward, way too many removals for him to deal. I sideboarded in just Pithing Needle and Golgari Charm. I did one actual flaw at a point, in which i had the table dominated, one bob, kruphix, DRS. I know I have decay in the top due to Courser. He had Matron and Goblin Lackey. His lackey attacks. I can block with bob, I can wipe his table (and my bob) with Charm. I decide taking the hit, and he places kick-dick in game, copying Matron for piledriver. Next turn i use pithing needle on kikijikki and wait for his attack, which I name bob to block piledriver, and follow up with the charm to wipe his table. So, mistake fixed. 2-0 win.
Round 2 - Sneak Show. G1 I go for the discard but he has multiple outs for the combo. He ends up with show and tell into Emrakul. Me into Tombstalker, I lose. G2 I get to draw many hates. I shape his hand in a way he can only cast Sneak Attack in order to finish him, while he has no counters and I have Krosan + Golgari Charm to deal with both his Sneak Attacks. While that happen Tarmoboy is clocking the game. Then on G3, I almost manage to Toxic Deluge his Show and Told Emrakul, but i fail to remember his Progenitus in his hand is also a pitch for FOW. It would've been epic. 1-2 loss.
Round 3 - Death and taxes. G1 is pretty straightforward with unanswered Goyf and me having removal for every threat. G2 I go with a great hand but with shaky mana - wasteland and fetch, with a discard and mostly green hand. I go for the Bayou and discard: no wasteland on his hand, and most of his threats answerable. Except he does draw a wasteland and kills my game. On g3 it was tricky. I open with solid hand but i was never prepared for his hand: 3 mothers, thalia and brimaz. I discard brimaz, since it wouldnt make a difference to discard a mother, and a 2/1 is better to deal than a 3/4. He plays Vial. I kill vial. Now he has 2 mothers, a revoker naming DRS and later Thalia. I draw a Maelstrom Pulse (PERFECT) and land a Liliana, and discard - i place an ancient grudge on the GY. In his turn he taps one mother for Thalia to attack Liliana. In my turn, I try playing Ancient Grudge from the GY to destroy his Revoker - truly a pitch for his mother. He taps her for protection. I use Lilianas sac and he SACS THALIA, which leaves me to exact mana to play Maesltrom Pulse. Eat the rich moms! Next turn I play Goyd and get back in the game for the win. 2-1 win!!
Round 4 - BURN. My brother, who played Led Dredge, had just beaten him, and I was in tension since it's a sucky matchup for Jund. Plus, since my younger brother beat him, now I also had to. I win g1 with a relentless Goyf and DRS backing me up on hit points. On g2 I die for greedy protection of POP. I start by discarding his Pyrostatic Pillar on a Stick, and see the POP there. So when I'm low in life, i do the mistake of playing wasteland and destroying my own boyou, to which he responds with pop, leaving me to 2 HP, instead of 4. Next thing he draws? A bolt, sure. G3 had me discarding him again at a point in which he had POP again.. and Ensnaring Bridge. It just had to go. I had Kruphix, Goyf and BOB in play. I just kep the aggresion, and the lifegain of Kruphix helped buckets. 2-1 Win!
Round 5 - RUG Delver. I have a risky hand, much like the one I had against D&T - wasteland, fetch, DRS. One wasteland and I'd be in bad situation, though DRS could certainly help me, but hey, it's RUG and Forked and Lightning Bolts are things. I mulligan, and go with a worse hand - 2 Kruphix, 2 Lilianas and 2 Badlands. I just keep hoping i draw lands. Instead, he wastelands my first land. I draw a wasteland and I just decide destroying his single land - but I get stifled. He eventually beats me up. I side out Kruphix and side in I think Toxic Deluge (for the Mangoose and multiple creature casting) and Chains of Mephistopheles. I start with a removal filled and and a Bob. He kills it, and we keep a boring game with him full of cantrips and burns, an me with tons of removals. He plays a goyf, I kill it. i play one and it sticks. maybe its the dazes, but i have the mana. Win. On g3 I stick a Chains early in the game and I dunno if it helped but he never casted any cantrip. BBE and Goyf going for the kill. 2-1 win!
Not a stellar result since most wins are good matchups, but I just wish I had a little more luck in the third game and it would be enough to win the Sneak Show match.
I really like the deck is setup right now. The only thing I know is that since I just got a Tasigur out of a booster pack I just feel I'll have to try it out next time. Oh, and Kruphix continues being stellar. He can accelerate a lot, and I don't even want to mention it in companion with Sylvan Library, it gets bonkers! Plus helps with the life problem Jund players usually face with Thoughtseizes, Bobs and multiple fetches.
Untested:
Tombstalker - Didn't show up this time.
Kolaghan's Command - The one time he showed up in my hand he ended up as Liliana's food :(
I've been intrigued with this deck since seeing that GP Kyoto trial winner with Rabblemaster instead of Tarmogoyfs. I have a deep, spiritual loathing for Goyf, so I was happy to see a Jund variant that I could live with. Naturally, I've been testing it out to see whether it's worth acquiring the few cards I do not yet own to play the deck live.
Kolaghan's Command has been a very enjoyable part of the deck, sort of like Hymn to Tourach in that it's always a 2-for-1... with the extra mana giving it the potential to affect stuff on the board and not just the hand. The deck without Tarmogoyf definitely benefits from another way to kill a Batterskull, which totally outclasses all of its creatures and can even turn into a lifelink liability with those Rabblemaster tokens swinging in uncontrollably.
As far as I know Goblin Rabblemaster is considered as a subpar replacement for Tarmogoyf. The reasoning behind Gaku Ohashi's success with it was that the metagame in Japan features fewer ways to get rid of creatures with such little toughness as Goblin Rabblemaster. In any other setting Tarmogoyf is superior.
Kolaghan's Command is quite interesting, except that its mana cost seems worrisome.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DOM
Monastery Mentor made a sizable impact in Kyoto,so I imagine they'll adapt like how the meta responded to Young Pyromancer running amok by adding things like pyroclasms. This kind of response will cause Rabblemaster to fall out of favor.
Hi there,
from Dreadstill over Maverick over D&T i'm no on giving Jund a try (since noone else plays this well synergized deck in Germany anymore). I'm on a quite classic build but have some questions about it...
1. the build:
//lands
4x verdant catacombs
2x bloodstained mire
2x wooded foothills
4x grove of the burnwillow
3x wasteland
3x badland
3x bayou
1x swamp
1x forest
//creatures
4x deathrite shaman
4x tarmogoyf
4x dark confidant
3x bloodbraid elf
1x scavenging ooze
//other spells
3x lightning bolt
3x punishing fire
4x abrupt decay
2x Inquisition of kozilek
2x thoughtseize
3x hymn to tourach
3x Liliana of the veil
1x Umezawa's jitte
//SB
2x duress
2x surgical extraction
2x pyroblast
2x slaughter games
2x grafdigger's Cage
2x pithing needle
2x golgari charm
1x <flex slot>
MD seems quite fix now and no, i'm not going to play courser of kruphix in combination with sylvan library - it costs too much slots and pressure in my opinion... but: Is 1 maelstrom better then the 4. decay? Someone tested it? Are the Hymns still up to date or is more cc1 removal just better? (only 15 black sources without the deathrites)
For the board... I'm quite comfortable with the 14 2ofs though i can't find for chokes, which i rly would like... but i see that slaughter games goes all the way home in more mu's then choke does... Concerning the last slot: i thought about a life from the loam, an ancient grudge, a 3. pyroblast, a krosan grip or even a 3. slaughter games in miracle / s&t-heavy metas. What do you think?
Greetz from Germany,
Marius Hausmann
It's okay if you don't like Courser but do consider playing one copy of Sylvan Library at least, it WILL change the tide of the battle in your favor, coupled with fetchlands and dark confidant.
I personally like having one Maelstrom Pulse available, it can destroy most threats, though its sorcery speed, but also deal with multiple tokens if needed and batterskull.
As for the slot I'd have Krosan Grip: uncounterable by traditional means, and works against many decks, whether it be stoneforge, miracles or sneak attack.
I particularly also like Null Rod to deal with artifacts to go along, as it affects the non blue interactions such as making sensei top and aether vial useless.
I second on Sylvan Library and Maelstrom Pulse. So far you could do: -1 Lightning Bolt, -1 Abrupt Decay, +1 Sylvan Library, +1 Maelstrom Pulse.
Moving further, it is better to have a playset of Thoughtseizes rather than a 2-2 split between them and IoKs. Thoughtseize can discard everything aside from lands, which means that you can get rid of cards like these: Sneak Attack, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Batterskull, Force of Will, Keranos, Tendrils of Agony, Ad Nauseam, various cards from Nic Fit, etc. As you can see, TS does a lot in S&T and Miracles filled meta. The downside of losing two lives is not really a downside whilst compared with the restrictions of Inquisition of Kozilek. It only matters in Burn matchup, which is a lost cause anyway. So: -2 IoK, +2 TS
One more thing, you would be much happier with a playset of Lilianas as she works wonders in this deck. Try moving Umezawa's Jitte to the sideboard for the fourth Liliana of the Veil since Jitte is not that great with only 16 creatures and you only want it in some particular matchups, whereas Liliana gets rarely boarded out. -1 Umezawa's Jitte, +1 Liliana of the Veil.
Lastly, I would suggest replacing two Wooded Foothills with Bloodstained Mires as getting a Swamp is more important than Forest. -2 Wooded Foothills, +2 Bloodstained Mire.
As for the sideboard, it is usually built according to the player's preference and you seem to have most of the things covered in there. -1 <flex slot>, +1 Umezawa's Jitte.
P.S. Yes, Hymn to Tourach is still a good card that always does something when cast and can randomly win you games.
Agree with everything DOM said, wise words.
I'm a big fan of a couple of Pernicious Deeds in the sideboard, they make the Miracles matchup so much easier while having a huge impact in a good number of other matchups too.
K taking the library in for the ooze i guess... For bloodstained mire over woodeds you are right too i guess - but every black fetchland fits in then^^ For the ful playset of Lilianas i just don't have the place cause i love the 1of Jitte - even if it's countered or destroyed it lets the goyf grow more (same true for library of course)
I like the split of Inquisition / TS not only cause of burn but cause of confidant against faster decks - most of the time you just can spare the life, for the other mu's the 2 additional duress in the board are already waiting.
I've been thinking of trying Deed in the slot I currently have Deluge. Do you think 1x Deed is better than 1x Deluge in the board?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissection
I used to run Deed before, and while I don't currently I enjoyed the card. A resolved one literally nullifies Entreat the Angels. It can swipe tokens as well as an adversary table, in case you get in bad waters vs dnt or elves. Deluge works similarly, but it can hit bigger creatures such as Emrakul, plus at a lower cost/cascadeable from BBE.
Went 3-0 in my weekly tournament last night.
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Punishing Fire
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Bayou
3 Badlands
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Forest
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Wooded Foothills
Sideboard:
2 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pyroblast
1 Choke
2 Duress
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Pithing Needle
Round 1: Omnishow
Game 1: This is a strange game, I don't find any discard an instead have a super creature heavy draw. I establish Bob first in hopes to draw discard, and I get nervous when I draw ALL of my tarmogoyfs instead. He resolves multiple ponders, dig through times, and impulse, but he can't piece together the combo and my creatures just destroy him.
Bring in discard + golgari charms + pyroblast + choke, board out all removal except for 1 lightning bolt
Game 2: I get a good discard/pyroblast hand, and I shred him while establishing a board presence. He gets locked under lili and can't get all the pieces in his hand.
1-0
Round 2: UWr Blade
Game 1: I tempo him while he can't remove any of my threats.
Bring in 1 Pyrobalst, 1 Golgari Charm, 1 Choke, and 1 Ancient Grudge, board out 1 abrupt decay, 1 Thoughtseize, 1 Hymn, 1 Lightning Bolt (still not exactly sure how to board for this matchup, but I have been winning it so I think this is fine)
Game 2: He Supreme Verdicts my board of Goyf, Bob, DRS. I draw no more action and lose to his jitte'd batterskull
Bring in Abrupt decay 4, board out golgari charm
Game 3: Turn 3 Choke keeps him locked for mana and I topdeck well. Thanks Choke!
2-0
Round 3: Death and Taxes
Game 1: He beats me up for a while with a serra avenger until I am at like 8 life, but I eventually draw a critical mass of removal and stop him in his tracks with 4 large tarmogoyfs.
Bring in: 1 Ancient Grudge, 2 Golgari Charm, 1 Toxic Deluge, 1 Umezawa's Jitte Board out: 2 Thoughtseize, 3 Hymn to Tourach.
Game 2: I get an early liliana thanks to Deathrite Shaman and make him sac his thalia. I do not tick up lili the following turns, because I am afraid of Wilt-Leaf Liege. I eventually draw the Punishing Grove Combo and remove all of his threats while I beat with Bob + Bloodbraid.
3-0
After this match my friend says that I should have been ticking up liliana, but my opponent reveals a Wilt Leaf from his hand (it was there from the start, but I kept his mana low with wasteland). I say that I felt like it would have turned the tide in his favor, and I purposefully did not tick up, but I guess after a certain point I would have been able to double punishing fire the Liege.
Thanks for reading.
Congrats on the neat finish! I was going to ask about why board out toughtseize vs Blade, but then you said you weren't sure yourself.
IMO it''s a keep since it's extra SFM removal and also Batterskull discard. But I guess you won anyway so congrats on that.
Also, I've fell for the Liliana into Wilt Leaf once, and it's NOT nice :( It's like show and tell into emrakul, almost haha. (In my case it was a turn 2 thing- drs into liliana and then practically scoop).
Right you are, any black fetch will do the trick. In fact, if you were to replace your Bloodstained Mires with Polluted Deltas, you could bluff BUG Delver or Shardless BUG until you play some Jund-related land, i.e. Badlands, Grove of the Burnwillows, or cast a red spell. Still, making them play around Daze for the first few turns is quite nice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wasteland
Regarding the discard split, suit yourself, though a playset of TS is still a better option :p
I was going to declare that I view Pernicious Deed as an underpowered card, but from my experience it is still better than Toxic Deluge in this deck. Both are bad for affecting both battlefields, but Deed does more when you pop it and does not prey on your life total.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seraphix
@Ironclad8690, congratulations on your results. But why no Sylvan Library?