Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Greetings All!
It has been awhile since my last tournament report. This is largely due to division of my time. Work has been really gearing up in addition to my focus on Leveling up within the Judge program. I ran more or less a standard list this week to a 3-0-1 finish. I played against Jeskai Ascendancy Combo (2-0), UWr Miracles (2-1), Lands (1-1-1), and Death and Taxes (2-0). I would have been able to seal the Lands match with another turn or two with the line that I chose but ultimately there was a line that was slightly higher risk that in this particular scenario would have won me the match on turn 4 of extra turns. Anyway here is my current list.
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Dark Confidant
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Dimir Charm
1 Liliana of the Veil
4 Force of Will
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
Sideboard
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Flusterstorm
2 Disfigure
1 Thoughtseize
1 Null Rod
1 Echoing Truth
1 Sylvan Library
2 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Murderous Cut
Overall the list continues to preform well. I think all of the match ups that I played are ~50% or better (I think this is typically the case in the overall field). This configuration gives you a lot of room to transition from the early attack with Delvers and Goyfs to a late game grind with Liliana/Bob/Tasigur. I am still not completely sure where I fall on my disruption package and 13-14th creatures. I was running 2 Tasigur and that felt a little clunky. I have really liked going back to Dark Confidant. Every time I drew it I was extra careful to navigate to a position wherein he would draw me extra cards. I am not sure if the 1-1 split is where I really want to be, but it has been working the past two weeks or so. I guess it is worth noting here that I am not a fan of True-Name Nemesis. I think without equipment it is good but not great. I did activate Tasigur a number of times over the course of the evening. I may actually consider Gurmag Angler for that extra point of power. As far as the disruption, I really like some number usually 2-3 Spell Pierce. As for the discard, I am always a little unsure of whether I want Toughtseize for precision or Hymn for raw power. I think 1-3 Lili are all fine. I shaved 1 for the Dimir Charm and have been pleased so far... it continues to over preform for me; one of the modes is always live especially if you are running Delve cards. I have also been thinking about including 1-2 Dig Through Time. The U/R and U/R/x delver decks have been including it, we could certainly support the card, and it is very powerful. I may give this some testing over the next few weeks. I am don't think that we need to devote extra sideboard slots for Omnishow. With counter magic, discard, a clock and sideboard enchantment destruction, we have everything that we need to beat them consistently. Thanks for reading! Hit me up if you have questions or comments!
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Hey folks,
today I went in 1st place with 4 : 1 in our local monthly legacy turney.
MU's were as follow :
Round 1: Bye :rolleyes:
Round 2: UR Omnitell -> Won 2:0
Round 3: Reanimator -> Won 2:1
Round 4: Elves -> Won 2:0
Round 5: BG Chains of Mephistofeles / Anvil of Bogardan Control/Combo ???:eek: -> Lost 0:2 :eyebrow:
This time I tested Dark Confidant instead of my regular Tombstalker build, here's the decklist's:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Dark Confidant
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:
2 Spell Pierce
2 Golgari Charm
2 Disfigure
2 Thoughtseize
2 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Murderous Cut
1 Sylvan Library
Im not 100% sold about the 2 DK...Will try 2 Tasigur next time...
Greetings
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Manipulato
Hey folks,
today I went in 1st place with 4 : 1 in our local monthly legacy turney.
MU's were as follow :
Round 1: Bye :rolleyes:
Round 2: UR Omnitell -> Won 2:0
Round 3: Reanimator -> Won 2:1
Round 4: Elves -> Won 2:0
Round 5: BG Chains of Mephistofeles / Anvil of Bogardan Control/Combo ???:eek: -> Lost 0:2 :eyebrow:
This time I tested Dark Confidant instead of my regular Tombstalker build, here's the decklist's:
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Dark Confidant
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:
2 Spell Pierce
2 Golgari Charm
2 Disfigure
2 Thoughtseize
2 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Murderous Cut
1 Sylvan Library
Im not 100% sold about the 2 DK...Will try 2 Tasigur next time...
Greetings
I don't like double tasigur
I like 1 tasigur and tombstalker/hooting
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
KobeBryan
I don't like double tasigur
I like 1 tasigur and tombstalker/hooting
1 tasigur, 1 gurmag is the correct choice for me
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Keep calm guys, no reason to get angry or unfriendly.
Well I think DK is better than Tasigur /Gurmag against Miracles and UWR Blade because of the Jace bounce. Also he is better in keeping the game going, especially against combo where he draws more disruption. But I have to say that he just dies to everything and has no good synergy with Golgari Charm...Tasigur or Tombstalker would have won me minimum 1 game against this BG Chains deck. I also really love the higher level of aggression with real beaters.
Until now I played 2 Tombstalker and was really happy with him, but Miracles & Blade are so popular right now that I'm a bit unsure...
But ok, all wins came from the strong 4offs and not the 2offs, so no big thing...
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
apon
1 tasigur, 1 gurmag is the correct choice for me
I have considered gurmag, but TNN and young pyros have been annoying
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
I play 1x Tombstalker and 1 x Tasigur because i like both and both have there individual pros and cons.
IMO there is no right choice it is often meta dependant.
I played in a small local tournament. Lost to Miracles without having a real chance to win. I pressured him down twice to ~ 8 life and then he stabilized.
How do you guys board against?
I tried not to overextend but in fact of this i was to slow and did not enough pressure to kill him before he got the board. The second round he got his Blood Moon and i had no answer to it.
I had to destroy his SDT because it gave him so much card advantage but didnt know how.
Hope you have advices how to play against Miracles and some good boarding advices ;)
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Deckerator
I play 1x Tombstalker and 1 x Tasigur because i like both and both have there individual pros and cons.
IMO there is no right choice it is often meta dependant.
I played in a small local tournament. Lost to Miracles without having a real chance to win. I pressured him down twice to ~ 8 life and then he stabilized.
How do you guys board against?
I tried not to overextend but in fact of this i was to slow and did not enough pressure to kill him before he got the board. The second round he got his Blood Moon and i had no answer to it.
I had to destroy his SDT because it gave him so much card advantage but didnt know how.
Hope you have advices how to play against Miracles and some good boarding advices ;)
You should use pithing needle, null rod, sylvan library, clique, maelstrom pulse Those are the most basic ones.
Then afterwards, you can use either one of the following: zur's weirding, creeping tar pits, winter orb.
Board out: disfigure, 1 goyf, 1 wasteland, 4 dazes. Thats 7 cards to choose from.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Deckerator
I had to destroy his SDT because it gave him so much card advantage but didnt know how.
When he taps his top to draw he's paying the cost of the activation. Respond to that by decaying his top. He still gets the draw but getting rid of the top is important.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Most good Miracles players won't pop their Tops unless they absolutely have to.
A more common way you can get rid of it is ADing it in response to them cracking a fetch land. They'll get that card but you'll at least get rid of it for awhile (hopefully).
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sturtzilla
Greetings All!
Overall the list continues to preform well. I think all of the match ups that I played are ~50% or better (I think this is typically the case in the overall field). This configuration gives you a lot of room to transition from the early attack with Delvers and Goyfs to a late game grind with Liliana/Bob/Tasigur. I am still not completely sure where I fall on my disruption package and 13-14th creatures. I was running 2 Tasigur and that felt a little clunky. I have really liked going back to Dark Confidant. Every time I drew it I was extra careful to navigate to a position wherein he would draw me extra cards. I am not sure if the 1-1 split is where I really want to be, but it has been working the past two weeks or so. I guess it is worth noting here that I am not a fan of True-Name Nemesis. I think without equipment it is good but not great. I did activate Tasigur a number of times over the course of the evening. I may actually consider
Gurmag Angler for that extra point of power. As far as the disruption, I really like some number usually 2-3 Spell Pierce. As for the discard, I am always a little unsure of whether I want Toughtseize for precision or Hymn for raw power. I think 1-3 Lili are all fine. I shaved 1 for the
Dimir Charm and have been pleased so far... it continues to over preform for me; one of the modes is always live especially if you are running Delve cards. I have also been thinking about including 1-2
Dig Through Time. The U/R and U/R/x delver decks have been including it, we could certainly support the card, and it is very powerful. I may give this some testing over the next few weeks. I am don't think that we need to devote extra sideboard slots for Omnishow. With counter magic, discard, a clock and sideboard enchantment destruction, we have everything that we need to beat them consistently. Thanks for reading! Hit me up if you have questions or comments!
I think that you're right on Angler being at least worth testing, and the Pierces have treated me well too. I don't know about Hymn vs. Thoughtseize either (but I agree on the tradeoff being made). I think it's largely about how you want to position yourself along the aggro-midrange spectrum with Seize becoming better the more interested you become in grinding rather than destabilizing your opponent long enough to kill them. I think Angler likely plays better with Hymn, Seize is better with Sylvan Library and/or Dig Through Time, and Bob can play either way. I'm obviously a fan of Dimir Charm as well. The only matchup where it's not great is RUG Delver, but we're pretty solidly favored there and the matchup only gets better after board.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Esper3k
Most good Miracles players won't pop their Tops unless they absolutely have to.
A more common way you can get rid of it is ADing it in response to them cracking a fetch land. They'll get that card but you'll at least get rid of it for awhile (hopefully).
This. Also, by the time they find their next Top, they'll hopefully be dead. Ridding yourself of a Top is a slightly harder trick with the Stifle build (because you can't make sure they aren't sandbagging a copy in their hand), but the Stifle build is better at fighting over Entreat/Terminus.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
btm10
I don't know about Hymn vs. Thoughtseize either (but I agree on the tradeoff being made). I think it's largely about how you want to position yourself along the aggro-midrange spectrum with Seize becoming better the more interested you become in grinding rather than destabilizing your opponent long enough to kill them. I think Angler likely plays better with Hymn, Seize is better with Sylvan Library and/or Dig Through Time, and Bob can play either way.
I think that it is very interesting that you analyze Thoughtseize and Hymn to Tourach in the manner that you have. I would think that Thoughtseize would play better with Gurmag Angler, as you can fuel casting him (it?... it, I guess, it is a Zombie Fish, after all) more quickly than Hymn. Hymn often feels clunky to me. Unless you are playing against a combo deck, the "correct" turn two play is often ambiguous. Hell, what do I know, I have been judging for the last 6-8 months and only have played locals. My analysis of the meta game and building a deck to effectively attack it may need some reconditioning.
Although I have never killed myself with a Dark Confidant flip or put myself to lethal on board to a flip (I have 5ed myself once or twice to a Force of Will), I think that running good old Bob along with Dig Through Time is asking for trouble. Sure... "greatness at any cost..." but jokes aside, if you build your deck in this fashion, eventually that dis-synergy will catch up with you. Tasigur, the Golden Fang may not be the best replacement as he and DTT compete for resources. Just some thoughts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
btm10
This. Also, by the time they find their next Top, they'll hopefully be dead. Ridding yourself of a Top is a slightly harder trick with the Stifle build (because you can't make sure they aren't sandbagging a copy in their hand), but the Stifle build is better at fighting over Entreat/Terminus.
Dimir Charm all day! In addition to playing this awesome card, you get the added bonuses of your opponent being confused as to what the hell this spell does and tilting as to how they should have played around it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
KobeBryan
You should use pithing needle, null rod, sylvan library, clique, maelstrom pulse Those are the most basic ones. Then afterwards, you can use either one of the following: zur's weirding, creeping tar pits, winter orb. Board out: disfigure, 1 goyf, 1 wasteland, 4 dazes. Thats 7 cards to choose from.
I agree. From my above list: -2 or 3 Wasteland, -4 Daze, -1 Hymn. Wasteland can usually be played around easily. As I am not playing Stifle, Wasteland can be played around even more easily. Daze very quickly becomes outclassed. Hymn is great on say turn 2-3 but is usually pretty poor in the mid to later game as resources tend to get rather low. I like to bring in +1 Flusterstorm, +1 Thoughtseize (not the best, but nice on turn 1-3 to snipe Jaces), +1 Null Rod, +1 Echoing Truth, +1 Sylvan Library, +1 Krosan Grip, and +1 Vendilion Clique.
I really like the V.Clique in this match up. It can cycle a Miracled card from our opponent's hand, it gives valuable information, when cast at end step it can be surprise pressure to a Jace. It can also get dead cards out of our hands and is an evasive threat. Sylvan Library should also not be underestimated. It really lets you settle in for a longer battle on the front of card quality, as well as serving as a way to get ahead in simple card advantage. Swords to Plowshares really lets you draw some extra cards, when they take out Tas or Goyfs. I am not the biggest fan of Maelstrom Pulse. Sorcery speed makes it feel clunky and you tend to have to tap out for it, which usually means that you walk into a Spell Pierce. I prefer to take the Jaces preemptively or counter them on the stack with Pieces and/or FoW.
Also I had been running a singleton Zur's Weirding in my board. When you resolve this card against non-damage combo or control decks you are STRONGLY favored to win. I have resolved this card a number of times against Miracles, 12-Post, and Omnishow, and the games become academic. Your opponent will not be able to win and it is only a matter of time before you do. I have shaved it from my board for the purposes of testing some other cards. I have resolved this card approximately 10-15 times and have never lost a game once it has resolved.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Zur's Weirding and Dig Through Time is a great combo. Zur's Weirding and opposing Dig through Time is a loss.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FoolofaTook
Zur's Weirding and Dig Through Time is a great combo. Zur's Weirding and opposing Dig through Time is a loss.
Is this a troll, or did you just not rtfc?
From my phone. I do my best, dammit!
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Secretly.A.Bee
Is this a troll, or did you just not rtfc?
From my phone. I do my best, dammit!
Dig Through Time isn't a draw. It's a look at top 7 and put 2 in your hand. Zur's doesn't trigger on anything but draws.
In this meta you'd need very good information to play Zur's Weirding. Any opponent playing DTT, the wishes, Intuition, etc would be a risky opponent to play it against.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FoolofaTook
Dig Through Time isn't a draw. It's a look at top 7 and put 2 in your hand. Zur's doesn't trigger on anything but draws.
Right, that's what I'm saying, yo.
From my phone. I do my best, dammit!
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Secretly.A.Bee
Right, that's what I'm saying, yo.
From my phone. I do my best, dammit!
I guess I missed your point. My point was that Zur's Weirding isn't a particularly good SB card against combo and control in this meta. There's too much DTT in general floating around out there. Then you have OmniTell which has about ten ways to get around it built into the shell with DTT, Cunning Wish and Intuition.
Having Zur's Weirding in hand instead of something to prevent Show and Tell from resolving sounds really bad on the face of it.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Finished a somewhat disappointing 23rd at SCG Dallas yesterday (5-2-1). We got home about a half-hour before I had to be a work, so I can't post my list but there wasn't much special about it.
I was pleased to be 2-0-1 (draw versus Joe Lossett) against Miracles, the matchup I definitely loaded up against. I lost to RUG Delver (nut drawn on game 2 and 3) and UR Delver (his draws were good and mine were not).
I'll try to give more details later, sorry for a poor post, operating on an hour and a half sleep.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FoolofaTook
Dig Through Time isn't a draw. It's a look at top 7 and put 2 in your hand. Zur's doesn't trigger on anything but draws. In this meta you'd need very good information to play Zur's Weirding. Any opponent playing DTT, the wishes, Intuition, etc would be a risky opponent to play it against.
A couple things here. 1) Zur's Weirding doesn't trigger. It has no trigger clauses in its text. It contains a static effect and also creates a replacement effect that occurs whenever a player would draw a card. 2) You are correct that it is bad in the face of a Dig through Time being put on the stack by an opponent. However, if you are running discard, you can strip items like this from your opponent's hand before resolving Weirding. It does still do a pretty good job at preventing them from drawing a DTT.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FoolofaTook
I guess I missed your point. My point was that Zur's Weirding isn't a particularly good SB card against combo and control in this meta. There's too much DTT in general floating around out there. Then you have OmniTell which has about ten ways to get around it built into the shell with DTT, Cunning Wish and Intuition. Having Zur's Weirding in hand instead of something to prevent Show and Tell from resolving sounds really bad on the face of it.
I don't think that it is the best silver bullet out there. It is something to consider. I think if you plan on facing a ton of Miracles, it is still a really good piece of tech. It may have lost some ground in a few on the combo match ups. If you can navigate to a position where your opponent is low on resources (discard/counterspells do this effectively), then resolving Zur's Weirding basically ensures that they cannot get back into the game. In these match ups, as we are typically the aggressor, this means they will be able to deny fewer draws and likely succumb to our board.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sturtzilla
It may have lost some ground in a few on the combo match ups. If you can navigate to a position where your opponent is low on resources (discard/counterspells do this effectively), then resolving
Zur's Weirding basically ensures that they cannot get back into the game. In these match ups, as we are typically the aggressor, this means they will be able to deny fewer draws and likely succumb to our board.
If you can navigate to a position where the combo player is low on resources you have won about 90% of the time. That's what aggro control hopes to accomplish against combo. Zur's Weirding is win-more in that circumstance and if it sat in your hand during the process of getting the combo player into that unenviable position it was win-less for each turn it sat in your hand while that was happening.
In the case of OmniTell the Omnitell player has as many cards as BUG does that have to be denied because each of those cards gets around Zur's Weirding in some way once you have landed it. Then there are another 8 to 10 cards that you'll deny because of the queasy effect of not being willing to put half the combo in your opponent's hand even though you think it's quite possible you can isolate the other half with your life total as a buffer.
The simplest case is that you cannot say yes to Cunning Wish because the best case is that they just go and get uncounterable bounce from the SB and then have control over when Zur's Weirding goes back to your hand. Then you have Intuition, which is a no because they'll go get Cunning Wish x3 and put you in the same position just a turn down the road. Then you have Dig Through Time, which is a no. So Show and Tell pops up on the pile and you say no because you can only say no maybe 7 times or so and Show and Tell is the kill card in the list. Omniscience pops up and the queasy feeling settles in.
If the combo player had no valid pieces in hand when you landed Zur's Weirding then you're in much better shape but you probably already had the game won at that point anyway.
