opps thats right. I was thinking with the strategy when playing against Dredge. I usually kill my guy to exile bridge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark Kant
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opps thats right. I was thinking with the strategy when playing against Dredge. I usually kill my guy to exile bridge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark Kant
For the next page, does anything a hard lock controllish, permanent based strategy might be optimal?
Either something like this (with a heavy anti-combo sideboard)...
//You Can't Stall,
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Necrogen Mists
3 Pox
2 Raven's Crime
//You Can't Win,
4 The Abyss
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Noetic Scales
//But I Can
4 Liliana's Caress
4 The Rack
2 Cursed Scroll
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
16 Swamp
Or the previously mentioned...
4 Contamination
4 Bitterblossom
4 Reassembling Skeleton
3 Nether Spirit
lock.
Just get a playset of Infest (Sideboard), and maybe a 3rd Nether Spirit, and i think you should be fine. I rather have Inquisition of Kosilek over Duress, its more versatile.Quote:
Originally Posted by lawlladin
I played a few games with that list (Liliana's Caress, The Rack, i like that one the most) from the last page, and it did what i wanted, or expected from it, just a turn of two slower than i needed. Lost against Merfolk, Belcher, and Burn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark Kant
Against Merfolk i was just totally overwhelmed in g1, g2 lost to a lord with him at 3 life, pretty close.
Belcher, just played 1 game, he went off at turn 2, didnt even had time do hymn him cause he was on the play.
Burn was close, lost to a topdecked lava spike with him on 1 life (i was going to win next turn, he had no cards in hand and i had The Rack).
I felt i needed a way to gain time, or just kill him faster.
Questions:
What SD do you use against combo?
Do you like Oppression for this deck? Maybe against certain matchups. That might be too much cards of the same type, so....
Do you think Tangle Wire, could stall the game for us to win, via Necrogen Mist - The Rack?
How about splash another color? Could the list benefit from it, even if the current decklist is tight already? Im thinking blue for Arcane Laboratory, or even Remand. Or White for Orim's Chant, Leyline of Sanctity.....
I really haven't tested the deck, it's just a theoretical build. Thank you for trying it. Were there any cards that seemed weak and not optimal?
Preboard, the deck isn't equipped to beat combo decks or burn decks. It's really geared to beating any deck that wins with creatures, even control decks that rely on a creature to seal the deal. It's a shame that it seems to have a difficulty with Merfolk though.
Merfolk seems like it could be an uphill battle since they run free counters vs Hymn and especially since they play Standstill which greatly slows down getting Ensnaring Bridge, Noetic Scales or The Rack online. That's what makes Merfolk perhaps the best deck in the format right, the potent mix of free counters, aggressive weenies and Standstill is too much for the vast majority of decks to handle. Postboard Innocent Blood and Duress might help, where as I don't think they have anything they can board in against you.
But I think Oppression and Leyline of the Void are excellent options post board vs combo. Chalice of the Void could also help vs. combo. Cards like Innocent Blood, and either Infest or Perish seem important.
Most cards were good, the main problem was the lack of time to play my lock pieces, and sometimes having too much of the same (2 Noetic Scales and 1 Bottomless Pit in my hand, when i already had Necrotic Mist in play, and really needed removal or discard, or even Ensnaring Bridge, but thats bad luck too). I dont know man, maybe the deck is just too slow for Legacy.
About the Merfolk matchup, what you said is all there is to say about it. Its a deck with cheap counters, that puts you on a fast clock. Standstill was very, very difficult. I could say i lost both games because of it, specially on game 1 where he played two, and then forced me to break them by attacking with Mutavault/Merfolks from Vial.
About your recent list, The Abyss is an absolute powerhouse against merfolk and it shoulp help the matchup a lot, as long as they dont counter it.
Another card that might be any good is Eng. Plague, but its usually not strong enough against merfolk, due to all the Lord effects. I still have to try that last build of yours.
Burn will be easy with some kind of life gain, i think. And Combo with the right SD is also very winnable. A good play would be Chalice for 1 against Burn (Shuts down a good part of the deck; Bolt, Lava Spike, Lavamancer, Guide, Chain Lightning, Spark Elemental, Shattering Spree. That might gives us the tempo we need). Since the Chalice is also good for combo, surely it belongs somewhere in the SD.
Ratchet Bomb hits some of our cards, but against Belcher for example, and Affinity even more, it would wreck them.
Belcher: They have to play the mana artifacts because of the discard, and then get them removed.
Affinity: Just hits everything, even lands. Its automatic GG.
Oh, I though you tried the newer built. Please do try it. I think it is better equipped to deal with those problem matchups.
How about Null Rod instead of Rachet Bomb. It owns Affinity, Vial, Belcher, Painter etc.
I agree with you about Chalice. I think it's an auto 4 of in the Board along with Oppression probably.
I was going to play with it last night, but i stumbled in a Red death thread (Red Death was my very first deck, so i really wanted to make it work) and spent hours around decklists. Total WASTE of time, cause it sucked really bad.
Ill try it tomorrow, i really have to sleep now. Ill have some results soon.
And yeah, Null Rod fits better. I just have this thing for blowing up my opponent's permanents, thats why i pointed Ratchet Bomb.
Hey, I was just looking through a box of my old cards and found Desolation. Was wondering if anyone has played around with this at all. I figure it could do some work after having some early hand removal followed by a Chimeric Idol and a Pox. It would also keep them from playing cards during your turn as well. It might result in too much collateral damage but it seems kinda cool in theory-craft.
I like it, specially with Crucible. I didnt even knew it existed.Quote:
Originally Posted by lawlladin
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Alright, its really hot here in Portugal, and i couldnt sleep because of it, so i got a friend of mine to play against me on MWS and tested the last list versus Affinity, Belcher, Dragon Stompy, and Goblins.
List:
4 Dark Ritual
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Necrogen Mists
3 Pox
2 Raven's Crime
4 The Abyss
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Noetic Scales
4 Liliana's Caress
4 The Rack
2 Cursed Scroll
4 Ancient Tomb
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
16 Swamp
Used this SD:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Null Rod
4 Infest (cheap, goes well with Noetic Scales and Dark Ritual)
--------------------------------------------------------
Matches:
Affinity(Ravager) 2-0
G1 - Little critts like Memnite, combined with Steel Overseer, and big hitters like Arcbound Ravager and Master of Etherium. Ensnaring Bridge, combined with The Rack and Necrogen Mists finish him. Dark Ritual + Noetic Scales keeps him from pumping his horde with +1/+1 counters early game.
G2 - Dark Ritual -> Null Rod + The Rack. GG
Null Rod = GG. Infest, Noetic Scales, and Ensnaring Bridge shine here. I know affinity pretty well, and there were no real chances for him to win.
--------------------------------------------------------
Belcher 1-2
G1 - He goes off t1 on the play, no chance for me. His 14 tokens beat me fast.
G2 - I side in Chalice and Null Rod. This was hilarious. He goes off t1 again, Empty the Warrens again, for 16 tokens. My turn. Dark Ritual -> Dark Ritual again -> Noetic Scales + The Rack. In his turn, all his tokens get bounced to his hand. looooooooooooooooooool
G3 - Dont remember it very well. He was on the play. I made a huge mistake playing Chalice for 0, when i could have played it for 4, and lost because of it. Hymn slowed him down a lot.
This loss is my fault alone. I did get lucky game 2. Its much winnable post SD. Never got to use Null Rod but i imagine its pretty handy.
--------------------------------------------------------
Dragon Stompy 0-2
G1 - He just beats me down with a Phyrexian Revoker (for my Cursed Scroll) and Gathan Raiders (morphed) while discarding to Necrogen Mists, and never plays anything to keep at least 3 cards in hand, so he never gets hit by The Rack (had 2), neither his creatures get bounced by Noetic Scales.
I drew a bunch of lands when i needed Pox or Hymn, or even another Necrogen Mists.
G2 - The same, only with Magus of the Moon and Rakdos Pit Dragon. I had 2 Liliana's Caress, Noetic Scales, and Necrogen Mists. I draw Pox a turn too late. I would win next turn. Drew a bunch of lands again.
Damn, couldnt find even a single The Abyss or Ensnaring Bridge in both games, and it would make a HUGE difference. Besides i drew a ton of lands when i needed discard in both games. Luck also makes winners.
--------------------------------------------------------
Goblins 2-1
G1 - He has a fast start totally tramples me with lackey, a ringleader, 2 piledrivers and some hasted others.
G2 - I side in Infest, and had 2 in my hand. He couldnt find Ringleader, the one card that allows him to comeback from that.
G3 - I had Necrogen Mists, The Rack, Ensnaring Bridge, and 2 The Abyss. He drew 3 Ringleaders, and sided in Krosan Grip (blew one abyss) so this was a long game. Eventually he tries to kill me using Goblin Sharpshooter with Skirk Prospector,cycling Gemplam Incinerator and then sacking all his Gobs. He cant pull it off and i stay at 4 life. He died to The Rack.
The Abyss and Infest made a big difference, but Ensnaring Bridge was the MVP here.
--------------------------------------------------------
Good: This lock works. The cards have great synergies and this latest list is far superior to the other. I really like the deck and ill test it more in the future.
Bad: Cursed Scroll was a dead card to me. It gives the deck versatility and reach, but i just rather have stuff like Smallpox, or raven's crime in its place. At least that way i could make use of the lands i draw mid-game.
Thank you so much for taking the time to test the list. I was 99% sure that everyone was just going to see a list filled with janky cards they've never heard of, and assume that it must suck without trying it.
I really appreciate you giving the list a shot and I'm glad to hear it works so well already. I don't think it's optimal yet, and I think you're right about Cursed Scroll. It takes too much mana to do too little.
How often was Lilana's Caress awesome, and how often was it a dead card that did basically nothing by the midgame? I'm guessing there are probably some other effective win conditions based on your opponent having an empty hand, perhaps a Quest enchantment or something.
How good was Pox? That's the other card that I wasn't sure about. Did you frequently find yourself wishing that it was Smallpox instead of Pox because it was costing you too many lands?
And lastly, how were the Ancient Tombs? Were they worth the lifeloss? Do you think City of Traitors might be better since the decks curve completly stops at 4?
You could perhaps go...
-2 Cursed Scroll
+1 Noetic Scales
+1 Bog Down or Bottomless Pit or Pox or Oppression or Wrench Mind or Unburden (Basically any strong discard effect).
That way you simultanously increase both your discard effects and your creature stoppers.
Do you think Oppression in the sideboard instead of a couple of Leyline might be worthwhile. It's not like Ichorid decks have any cards in hand, so Noetic Scales and Ensnaring Bridge should be sufficient against them. That goes double for Reanimator (especially when combined with sac effects like The Abyss and Pox).
It seems like all of the most popular decks that Leyline is effective against, are already screwed over by your maindeck Bridges and Noetic Scales. But then again, if you don't have a ritual handy, you might not be able to get either card out onto the board in time. Does Ichorid usually win by turn 3?
Oppression seems like it could be extremely effective against combo decks and fast decks in general, and it might the strongest card in the deck to ritual out turn one.
I'm surprised that you fared so well against three matchups that seem like they would be uphill battles given how fast and aggressive Goblins, Belcher and Affinity are, and yet had trouble vs. Dragon Stompy which on paper seems like it should be an easy matchup. Most of their creatures are big and they empty their hand to play them, so Ensnaring Bridge, Noetic Scales and The Abyss should all be very strong against them. Meanwhile their most feared lock pieces (Blood Moon, Magus, Trinisphere, and Chalice) do relatively little against you.
Anyways, thank you for trying the deck. I hope you liked playing it and will help me improve it and get it close to optimal. Once we develop the deck further, and get it close to optimal, we could make a seperate deck just for this strategy. It's been a long time since there has been a viable black control deck so this is overdue in my opinion.
That's why im trying so hard :tongue: black is my favorite color and im kinda tired of playing aggro (most of my decks are aggro, even casual ones)Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark Kant
Pox was okay. In a regular Pox list it can be a central card, but here its not as good. Still, its fine, and should be better than SmallPox.
Surely there are cards that could be tested in its place, like Wrench Mind or Last Rites (cant think of anything else right now), although Pox serves as removal and discard, and its good vs combo, so this has to be well thought.
Last Rites could be a very good utility card, allowing us to discard our hand to help Ensnaring Bridge/Noetic Scales against fast aggros (its makes a difference, trust me), plus its huge vs combo. Could be played t1 by ritual, or t2 with Ancient Tomb, so less mana-intensive than Pox. However discarding 2 cards for it, then getting it countered would suck a lot. So its worse vs counter-based control, and its a horrible topdeck.
Liliana's Caress never was a dead card to me, but i dont remember drawing it mid-late game. When i had it, it worked well, better than The Rack, which was also good. Quest for the Nihil Stone should be good if you want to replace any of them.
As for Ancient Tomb, well, the deck needs to play the lockpieces as fast as possible, in a fast enviroment, so i liked it much, even with the damage. City of Traitors would be better in a Poxless version, i think.
I was just looking at the list and reached the same conclusion as you, the deck needed at least another Bottomless Pit or discard effect in exchange for the Scrolls.
About the Leyline, its much better to have Oppression on the SD, i just picked up a few cards before playing the matches, and remembered that i should have G-Yard hate, now with your example it just seems almost useless.
My knowledge of Dredge is very basic, so i cant tell the percentages of turn 1/2/3 kills. I do know that some versions running LED are combo-like fast.
The deck has more trouble with small creatures (1-3 power usually) that pass through Noetic Scalles. If we can solve that problem, i think it will be very good. I still need to play with it against heavy control decks. But we are playing discard so....:cool:
The fact that this deck was able to survive against fast aggros is greatly due to Dark Ritual, and part to Ancient Tomb, and depends much on them.
The match against Dragon Stompy was just bad luck. Their lockpieces totally suck against this deck. A single The Abyss ruins them. I didnt even had Ensnaring Bridge. Both games. In those conditions i could never win against Goblins, for example. Just mulligan hard for one of those 2 if Dragon Stompy comes up. GG for them.
Goblins can be pretty hard if they have a fast hand. Infest was one of my greatest weapons here, i would never have won g2 and 3 without it. Goblin Ringleader is their key card, stops Noetic Scales and pulls them out of The Rack's range. I think this always will be a hard matchup, but Infest nails them pretty hard.
Affinity will be easier than Goblins, they can have that explosive hand that just wins (even more than goblins), but post-board Null Rod totally shuts them down. And their creatures get a lot bigger than Gobs, so Noetic Scales, and Ensnaring Bridge work much better on them.
Tezz builds should be stronger g1, but much, much weaker g2 and 3.
Ravager builds should have that 4dmg burn spell with metalcraft, its the only weapon they have after being locked.
Belcher with them on the play will be very hard. I think G1 will be very difficult, turn 1 Ritual -> Hymn/Pox should be our best weapon, and priority when mulling; G2 and 3, Oppression, Chalice and Null Rod should put the odds in our favor, as long as they dont combo t1. Like you said, 1st turn Oppression will wreck them.
Filtered MWS for black enchantments and non-creature artifacts, then burned my eyelashes for 2 hours. Cards worth looking into:
Vs Aggro->
Angel's Trumpet (Paired with Ensnaring Bridge would give a fast win); Storage Matrix (we only need to untap the lands); Tainted Aether; Sun Droplet (could be great in this deck, if the opponent doesnt keep up the pressure, his previous efforts turn to nothing. It would force the opponent to play cards, and fall into our lock);
Other cards that might fit->
Words of Waste (good synergy); Gibbering Descent (6 mana is way too much, but it would get online turn 4 to Necrogen Mists, it can be perfect for the deck, testing will tell); Scepter of Fugue; Dark Suspicions(could be a wincon against decks that find a way to beat Necrogen Mists discard, great lategame card);
Ill do some experiences.....The most interesting to me are Last Rites, Gibbering Descent, Dark Suspicions and Sun Droplet.
I really like this deck, and if it ends up good, ill be getting all those cards ASAP (The Abyss will be hard to get, and even harder for me to buy it lol).
Maybe your playgroup will let you proxy up The Abyss if you get your hands on all the other cards. As I found out recently, everyone in my playgroup is usually fine with 4-6 proxies, as long as 90% of the cards in the deck are real, they don't mind a few of the more expensive cards being proxied up especially if you let them know before hand.
If the deck needs accleration, Chrome Mox/Mox Diamond might possibly be valid options. I really think City of Traitors instead of Tombs might be worthwhile too, against fast aggro/burn. After you have 4 mana on the board, there really isn't anything you can't play.
Wow, you have a ton of great ideas to improve the deck. Awesome finds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiago_B.
I think the deck does need to play the 4th Noetic Scales, and it needs atleast 1-2 more discard effect, preferably recurring discard effects like Bottomless Pit or Words of Waste (good find) or Uba Mask (not really a discard effect but it serves a similar function).
Uba Mask shuts down countermagic completely, and also really helps you enable The Rack, Ensnaring Bridge, Noetic Scales, and if you opt to play it, can enable Quest for the Nihil Stone. Unfortunately, it doesn't work very well with Liliana's Caress. If you anticipate a moderate amount of blue decks packing counters, Uba Mask seems essential somewhere in the 75.
Scepter of Fugue is also another really awesome find. Maybe this should be out Necrogen Mist effect 5-6. It's definately one of the strongest options.
Gibbering Descent seems too situational. You would want it to act as a Necrogen Mists type effect (to keep your opponent at an empty hand) when you don't already have a Necrogen Mists on the board to do just that. Unfortunately, the only realistic way to get it out seems to be with Necrogen Mists.
I think the deck needs more lock pieces, not win conditions, so I think Dark Suspicions only works if it's replacing Liliana's Caress. It supplements The Rack well, but so did Liliana's Caress, and it does it for far cheaper. If you want a similar effect, Scalding Tongs seems like it would be alot stronger than Dark Suspicions since it's much cheaper.
Last Rites definitely looks like it has potential. It's dead in multiples and it's a dead top deck though, but then again, you probably have the game locked up once you're at the midgame with an empty hand. And I feel like any discard we make room for should be a recurring one.
Quest for the Nihil Stone looks okay. Perhaps it's a better fit for the deck than Liliana's Caress. I hate that you first need to get two counters on it (so it can be dead if you topdeck midgame same as Liliana's Caress), and it needs zero cards in your opponent's hand, so it's winmore. But at the very least, if 8 win conditions end up being too few, it could sub in where the Cursed Scrolls used to be.
Tainted Aether, I dislike because this deck doesn't attack lands. In fact, your opponents usually have land to spare so saccing them to play their creatures shouldn't be an issue. Also I feel like between The Abyss, Bridge and Scales (and possibly Storage Matrix), the deck has enough high cc creature hate. And all those cards seem to be far superior to Aether, since they lock the opponent's creatures down completely, all by themselves. If Aether was 3cc instead of four, so you could Ritual it out turn one, it would be so much stronger though.
Storage Matrix is an awesome find (since it only costs 3 mana and comes down on turn 1/2 usually). Basically, your opponent is forced to choose between either playing more creatures, or attacking with the ones he has in play, and risking getting the ones in his hand discarded to a Hymn or Noetic Scales. This buys you a lot of extra time to lock them out. It's as good as Bridge/Scales since your opponent can simply tap all their lands, and attack with their creatures each turn. But it supplements both cards really well if it comes down early before they have a full board. It could as a budget alternative to The Abyss (the only expensive card in the deck).
Sun Droplet gains you two life for each turn basically. Is that enough? It's a great effect once you have the game slowed to a crawl. So I guess the real question is, do you lose more games before the game has slowed to a crawl, or do you lose more once the game is slowed down but they find a way to eek through the last few point of damage. Ultimately, I think it's a fantastic option against fast aggro, but there's plenty of matchups and situations where it doesn't do very much. So I'm not sure.
Not a fan of Angel's Trumpet. It doesn't anything unless you have an Ensnaring Bridge in play. It has poor synergy with Noetic Scales. And if you just want an extra way to finish them off, Quest just seems more solid all around.
I really like the concepts being discussed here. I think discard has a great opportunity to kick all those blue decks in the teeth right now. So here's a question, how do you plan on dealing with Jace, the Mind Sculptor?
I think Pithing Needle might be a sideboard option.
-Frog
If I'm not mistaken, Uba Mask also...kind of destroys a lot of things does it not? Brainstorm for instance, would cause them to exile the top three cards of their library, albeit be able to play them (which would be an indirect way of countering something), but they still lose all of those cards. So draw, counters, anything they would normally do on your turn is undoable.
I think Uba Mask might be a rather key card in this deck, it's sort of like Chains of Mephistopholes or whatever, just, in some regards better for Pox.
Yeah Uba Mask is awesome. It's also decent vs. Standstill. My previous post was a rather long read, so here's the Cliff Note's version...
Here are in my opinion some of the weaker cards in current version of the deck, in order...
Cursed Scroll
Pox
Liliana's Caress
The Abyss
Noetic Scales
The deck needs ~1-2 more recurring discard effects, and these seem to be the best options in order...
Scepter of Fugue (Good against any counterspells they may be saving in hand as well)
Uba Mask (Also great against control decks)
Words of Waste (Extremely synergic with the whole deck)
Bottomless Pit (Very similar effect to Necrogen Mists)
Last Rites (it's a very strong card, but it's not recurring, which is why it's last on the list).
Alternative win conditions to replace Liliana's Caress in order of effectiveness...
Scalding Tongs
Quest for the Nihil Stone
Cursed Scroll
Dark Suspicions
I think Liliana's Caress is better than any of these except maybe Scalding Tongs (it's very reliable).
Potential alternatives to The Abyss or Pox (slow down your opponent or get rid of creatures)...
Storage Matrix
Sun Droplet
The discard effects mentioned above.
Yeah, Pithing Needle is pretty much the deck's best option against Jace. It can fight Null Rod for that slot since it too, like Null Rod, is solid against Belcher, Aether Vial and can help vs Affinity.
So how is this for a new test list...
//Discard
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Necrogen Mists
1 Raven's Crime
1 Scepter of Fugue
1 Uba Mask
1 Words of Waste
1 Bottomless Pit
1 Pox (or Sun Droplet)
//Lock
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Noetic Scales
4 The Abyss
1 Storage Matrix
//Win
4 The Rack
3 Liliana's Caress
1 Scalding Tongs
//Mana
4 Dark Ritual
3 Ancient Tomb
2 City of Traitors
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
15 Swamp
Test Sideboard
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Infest
3 Pithing Needle
2 Null Rod
2 Oppression
You seem to face lots of fast aggressive weenie decks so cutting Pox migh help preserve your life total and survive long enough to lock/bounce their creatures. This deck in theory should absolutely decimate aggro control decks and possibly control decks as well, since they give you a lot more time to lock them out. The maindeck wasn't really configured to take on super fast decks like goblins, belcher and affinity, so it's really cool that it seems to be capable of doing that.
Cutting Pox allows us to play fewer lands and more Sol lands (Tomb/City). I only cut one for now. However, there is a chance that Pox is a central part of quickly dumping both our hand and our opponent's hand. So without Pox, the deck might possibly not function as well.
Also, what do you think of Persecute in the sideboard against monocolored decks? Would a ritualed out Persecute on turn two, or an Ancient Tomb/City of Traitored Persecute on turn 3 own Goblins, Elves, The Gate, Merfolk, Quinn, and/or Blue Control after you bait out their counters? It could replace the 2 Null Rod above or replace Oppression if you don't feel you need Oppression vs the combo matchup.
I'm going to throw this list together the next time our play group plays together (next Wednesday). It would be really cool if you could test out that list as well. It's a quick and easy way to figure out which cards are worthwhile and which aren't. It should help us figure out what the deck is lacking in (does it need more recurring discard, more lock pieces, more stall cards like Storage Matrix and Sun Droplet, or more win conditions).
Isn't that just a mono black control deck? I'm sure there's another thread for that. Much like people trying to splash white or black into a Mono Blue Control deck, making a "Pox" deck without it's namesake isn't a Pox deck.
Yeah they wont bother about it, as long as i have most of the cards, if i proxy 4 of them its fine.
About the moxes, testing is the only way to know, but im worried it might be too much bad draws mid-lategame, and too much card disavantage, since we already have Dark Ritual, and im testing Last Rites.
Tainted Aether seems weak compared to the other lockpieces, i agree on that. Angel's Trumpet is more of a situational card, and we should use something more versatile.
Gibbering Descent is too mana intensive. I just cant play it very well. Its a shame it costs so much.
Dark Suspicions will be tested in its place, decks running Standstill and Dark Confidant often draw too much for us. Its a dead card if we are winning and a wincon if we are losing, besides it forces the opponent to play cards, getting into The Rack's reach, and helping Noetic Scales.
Words of Waste also seems a nice addition, but maybe another card deserves this place (Quest?).
How do you feel about Dimir Machinations? Fetches Ensnaring Bridge, Necrogen Mists, Oppression, Words of Waste, Last Rites, Pox.....Its slow, but it might get us the last card we need to finish the lock.
Im putting up this list: -2 Cursed Scroll (+2 Dark Suspicions), -2 Raven's Crime (+1 Oppression, +1 Dimir Machinations), -3 Pox (+3 Last Rites). In the SD, ill drop the Leylines for a 4th Null Rod and 3 Oppression.
Im also switching 4 City of Traitors for 4 Ancient Tomb, i wont need to play so much lands now that i dont have Pox so it fits better.
I think that this deck should be able to beat Merfolk too, we just have too much good cards against them. With Zoo we probably stand a good chance as well.
Against Belcher we should mulligan hard for Null Rod and Oppression. I just lost 1-2 to it again, and even post SD its 50-50 at least; my turn 1, on the play was: Chalice for 0, Swamp, Dark Ritual, Oppression. I just couldnt kill him fast enough, and he combos with topdecked cards. I was surprised, had 2 major cards against that deck on the board, a perfect start, and i still lost. Perhaps Last Rites and Quest for the Nihil Stone will help this matchup.
Jace would be a total pain in the ass, we dont run creatures so we couldnt kill him, or any planeswalker. Pithing Needle might be great against cards like Jace, and Deed, which wrecks us completly.
Uba Mask is more of a situational card. But it might prove usefull.
Ill test your list as well, soon. Ive got a sunburn so im sitting at home with nothing better to do than play MTG lol
EDIT: Persecute seems nice. Definitly worth testing.
If you want a tutor effect, Beseech the Queen seems superior. It can tutor up every card, not just 3cc cards, it can tutor up a win condition like The Rack too, or Hymn and such or Noetic Scales (which is often times better than Ensnaring Bridge).
But really, I don't think the deck needs a tutor. Tutors just slow this deck down too much, have poor synergy with a Necrogen Mists on the board, and the deck is built to be extremely redundant already.
I just hope all these changes haven't made the deck weaker rather than stronger.
Awesome. Well not for you, but awesome that you'll get a chance to play more mtg lol. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiago_B.
I may install Workstation myself and give it a go (though I've always hated playing on MWS).
Due to my sunburn, i played for like 8 hours today with this type of deck :eek: I actually tested your list first, but now the only matches i can remember was Merfolk (i think i won) and Forgemaster (I won both games easy, since decks with a few fatties arent very good here).
From my experience, Sun droplet is okay. Storage Matrix delays creature aggros A LOT. Scepter, Scalding Tongs, and Words of Waste are okay too, and between these 5 cards, it comes to personal preference or metagame choice.
BTW, Persecute was good, i sided both in a lot.
Uba Mask is good, but not as good as i expected. Bad synergy with Liliana's Caress. It seemed like a huge card to build around, so i replaced Caress with Quest for the Nihil Stone.
I focused on recurring discard, Uba Mask, The Rack, and the Quest. Turns out that its too situational to be effective, and topdecked Quest mid-lategame after we have Uba Mask, its dead.
The list that ran those win conditions lost like 5-2 to Dragon Stompy (OMFGGG it all went downhill here, even Noetic Scales kept bouncing his Manic Vandal, i felt like a giant turd), 2-1 to Tribal Elves(aggro, g3 he keeps gaining life (like, 150), until i find infest. Lost due to milling), 4-1 to Burn (Sun Droplet wins 1st game, then he boards Leyline of Punishment). Won 3-1 vs TezzAffinity (null rod).
A HUGE, GIANT TURD. Totally.
:frown:
Quest for the Nihil Stone isnt good here.
I came back to this similar, but older list:
Quote:
// Lands
3 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
15 [MBS] Swamp (1)
4 [EX] City of Traitors
// Spells
4 [TSB] The Rack
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
3 [M11] Liliana's Caress
1 [TE] Scalding Tongs
1 [CFX] Scepter of Fugue
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (1)
1 [7E] Oppression
3 [OD] Last Rites
4 [MR] Necrogen Mists
4 [8E] Ensnaring Bridge
2 [PS] Dark Suspicions
4 [LG] The Abyss
3 [US] Noetic Scales
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 [WL] Null Rod
SB: 3 [7E] Oppression
SB: 4 [ALA] Infest
Played vs Rock, some weird deck (think it was aluren), Goblins (0-2), Junk (2-0), Merfolks (2-1), and Belcher again(2-1).
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I really dont remember much of the Rock match, i think i won 2-0. One of the games he died to his Dark Confidant, with help from The Rack.
Engineered Explosives isnt very good against us :laugh:
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That Alluren(?) match, he just mulled a lot and never had a chance (i just saw some creatures in the G-Yard, like Imperial Recruiter, Birds of Paradise and Dreamstalker)
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Gobs 0-2
G1 - He overwhelms me easy with a pretty fast start.
G2 - I mull to 5 trying to find infest, or any creature lockpiece paired with ritual/City of Traitors. I start too slow and totally lose.
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Junk 2-0
G1 - I easily stop his creatures, and lock him out. He has a Vindicate but its far from enough.
G2 - He hits me hard in the beginning, vindicates my Abyss. I play Noetic Scales, and survive to lock him. He plays deed, clears the board. I was lucky. The turn after he played Knight, which would kill me, i topdecked Ensnaring Bridge. He never got another deed and i won.
I wish i had those Pithing Needles on my SD. It would have been much easier. He said he had 1 Deed main, and then boarded 2 more. Our lock is really effective here in this matchup, and deed effects are their only real threats, and their hope relies all into that.
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Merfolks 2-1
G1 - Close game. The Abyss wrecks his army. A Coralhelm Commander, his last creature, leveled to 4 in that turn, brings me to 0.
Sided out Last Rites and the Scepter for Infest.
G2 - I win with The Abyss, Liliana's Caress, Necrogen Mists, and eventually draw and play Ensnaring Bridge.
G3 - was basically the same, but longer. He kept playing Standstill. I really wanted Dark suspicions but never found one. I eventually lock him with 2 The Abyss. He died to The Rack.
Mutavault is really annoying. Noetic Scales and The Abyss dont deal with it. Kira can be a problem, but its too situational.
This should be a good matchup for us, which is pretty good given its one of the best decks out there.
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Belcher 2-1
G1 - He's on the play, combos t2 i think. I mull to 5 and get raped, never finding Last Rites. Sided in Oppression, Chalice, Null Rod. I take out the Scales, Abyss, Ensnaring Bridge, and Scalding Tongs.
G2 - I open with chalice for 0 and Oppression. Landed Liliana's Caress next turn, and played 2 topdecked Hymns. Necrogen Finishes him. He actually played Empty the Warrens for 4 tokens. Too little, too late.
G3 - I draw an insane hand, with 2 Dark rituals, Null Rod, 3 Oppressions and 1 Swamp. Next turns i drew swamps, 2 The Rack, and Hymn (not in that order).
Screw you Belcher!!!! G2 i had Last Rites, which i discarded to Opression. So, no chances for him there. I really wanted to win :tongue:
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I was lucky vs Junk with that topdeck, and vs Belcher too with that insane hand.
Goblins, as expected, its just a hard matchup, but its less popular recently so......
Well, i didnt even use Last Rites. I would have, against Belcher, but Oppression is just better. I rather have something like a mix of 1 Mind Rot with 2 Persecute, or one of the utility cards i mentioned in the beginning of this post.
Also, getting 2 Ancient Tomb for 1 swamp and 1 City could speed things up a bit.
You're right, no tutors needed. Too slow.
Im very satisfied with the results so far.
Thanks for testing the list again. You insights have been invaluable and I think the deck is slowly getting there, ever closer to an optimal build that is strong in any meta. I was thinking about how to address the difficulty you're having against goblins (and i imagine fast aggro in general).
I don't know how I forgot about this card, but Damnation seems like it could be awfully effective in this deck, especially if you're having difficulty with Goblins and Merfolk and the like or Progenitus/Emrakul and the like. It can be played off a Sol Land on turn three. Between Pithing Needle and Null Rod vs Belcher and Damnation plus Infest post board vs. Goblin token, the Belcher matchup should improve considerably as well. :eek:
Damnation could perhaps take the spot of some of the Noetic Scales, some of The Abyss and something else. Do you feel like The Abyss is too slow? If so, Damnation could substitute for it directly, and at a fraction of the price.
I also love the fact that Bottomless Pit, like Necrogen Mists, is NOT card disadvantage especially if you time it well. Your opponent discards first since they have the next upkeep. And if forces your opponent to rush his cards onto the board asap as soon as he sees it, forces him to overextend, which makes him really vulnerable to Noetic Scales/Damnation. :laugh: If none of the other alternative discard outlets seem as strong as Necrogen Mists, then maybe Bottomless Pit should be a 1-2 of supplement to Necrogen Mists instead of the weaker alternatives.
I think I was too hard on Dark Suspicions. It's high mana cost shouldn't matter since you will have more than ample mana to cast it. And it can be brutally effective against control decks until they dump their hand. I hate the fact that it does nothing once they are in topdeck more though. The deck feels like it needs a faster win con.
Also, Phyrexian Arena might have poor synergy with Ensnaring Bridge, and yes it also slowly pings away at your life. But you can probably afford the lifeloss for a while if you're not playing pox, and the card advantage you get in a slow deck like this is enormous. You could see upwards of 10+ cards in a deck like this thanks to Arena, and that is certain to win you the game with a faster The Rack or what not. And if you're low on life as a result of really fast goblins opening or something, you can just discard the Phyrexian Arena to Necrogen Mists or whatever. Going this route, the deck probably would benefit from a tutor to get The Rack faster.
Phyrexian Arena has poor synergy with Dark Suspicions, so it should probably be one or the other, not both together, in the same deck.