Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Im looking into building this deck. I love the power it is gaining and am seeing how well positioned it is becoming in the changing metagame. I definitly think that the green splash is awesome as it gives you power over other creature decks. What I am thinking is wether or not the black splash is worth it. You get a better SB, thoughtseize, and Bob. My worries is wether these cards are necessary, the instability you gain from the mana base and that dark confidant is weak, when it comes to putting in damage.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
I am personally not all that thrilled with the black splash. For one thing, Dark Confident will often times do more damage to you, than he does to your opponent. Additionally Thoughtseize and Dark Confidant combined make the Burn match up considerably worse (and considering that the Burn match up is one of the more baseline match ups for the format why would you want to make that match up worse?). All told I would rather just stick to a GW or a Mono-White build.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Is there a reason the GW builds of DnT aren't running Phyrexian Revoker (or at least in the main)?
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DalkonCledwin
For one thing, Dark Confident will often times do more damage to you, than he does to your opponent.
I'm not sure what you mean here. In my opinion, the point of Dark Confidant is that he draws cards and thus provides an advantage over your opponent. If he attacks and deals damage, that's just a bonus.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DalkonCledwin
Additionally Thoughtseize and Dark Confidant combined make the Burn match up considerably worse (and considering that the Burn match up is one of the more baseline match ups for the format why would you want to make that match up worse?)
Why is Burn a baseline match-up for the format? Also, you play Stoneforge Mystic and plenty of equipment, which is good against that deck (think Umezawa's Jitte). Don't some versions play Burrentown Forge-Tender as well?
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
I would consider Burn a "baseline" deck since its a cheap and consistant deck. Chances are, in a local event, burn will be around if you have new players or if people can't afford decks with playsets of $10+ cards.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
True... Burn, being really cheap to put together, plus with the release of FnL premium deck is always present in tourneys... in 2 tournaments I've recently played... I played against burn 3 times... I went 2-1... I was thinking, wouldn't putting in a Dragon's Claw in the sb to solidify the match to the point that you can't possibly lose be worth 1 slot? I don't know, maybe it's just me but I recently opened up 3 slots in my sb because I found the relic-warders to be underwhelming... and I'm seriously considering putting in a miser's dragon's claw just to shove it to all the burn players... what do you guys think?
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Derayler
Im looking into building this deck. I love the power it is gaining and am seeing how well positioned it is becoming in the changing metagame. I definitly think that the green splash is awesome as it gives you power over other creature decks. What I am thinking is wether or not the black splash is worth it. You get a better SB, thoughtseize, and Bob. My worries is wether these cards are necessary, the instability you gain from the mana base and that dark confidant is weak, when it comes to putting in damage.
I cannot imagine running my deck without Black. Besides Dark Confidant, you get Thoughtseize and Tidehollow Sculler and Engineered Plague in the board. I have never had an issue with the mana base and enjoy the additional power. Dark Confidant alone is a good enough reason to run black. The rest is just amazing extras.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
CorpT
I cannot imagine running my deck without Black. Besides Dark Confidant, you get Thoughtseize and Tidehollow Sculler and Engineered Plague in the board. I have never had an issue with the mana base and enjoy the additional power. Dark Confidant alone is a good enough reason to run black. The rest is just amazing extras.
Could I pester you for a list of your most recent deck with the black splash, i'd be interested in seeing it.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sims
Could I pester you for a list of your most recent deck with the black splash, i'd be interested in seeing it.
I get a lot of flak in both this thread and the Deadguy thread because my list is basically a mix of the two so both threads have problems with them. But I love my list.
3 Mother of Runes
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Squadron Hawk
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Aether Vial
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vindicate
1 Umezawe's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
4 Scrubland
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Wasteland
Sideboard is fairly specific for local meta:
4 Path to Exile
3 Engineered Plague
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Duress
2 Krosan Grip
1 Mother of Runes
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Yay, another person who is secretly in love with Squadron Hawk~! Admittedly, I think you almost have to concentrate on SFM/Equipment (would cost you another 2 slots, likely), to make those birds pimp enough to work. I'd be half tempted to the lose Goyfs for the 4th SFM/3rd equipment and Vindicates 3&4 .
peace,
4eak
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
4eak
Yay, another person who is secretly in love with
Squadron Hawk~! Admittedly, I think you almost have to concentrate on SFM/Equipment (would cost you another 2 slots, likely), to make those birds pimp enough to work. I'd be half tempted to the lose Goyfs for the 4th SFM/3rd equipment and Vindicates 3&4 .
peace,
4eak
Tarmogoyf has been pretty good for me, but I see your point. I would take out Vindicate for more SFM/Equipment before losing Goyfs though. Equipment is a very, very important part of this list, so more would probably be a good idea. I would think about a land out for another equipment maybe. 3 SFM has been pretty solid, but it really sucks to lose an equipment.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Split for 1st again last night with an updated version of the GW build I played last week:
4 Plains
1 Forest
4 Savannah
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Windswept Heath
3 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Mother of Runes
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Serra Avenger
3 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Bonehoard
2 Sylvan Library
Sideboard:
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Krosan Grip
1 Tariff
3 Path to Exile
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Faerie Macabre
Tariff was due to Natural Order/Show and Tell not being too uncommon to see and I only had 1.
Round 1 vs. BW Vial
Not sure what makes a deck qualify as a version of Death and Taxes, so I'm just calling his deck that.
Main thing worth note was him Vialing in Sculler during my draw step and taking the Vial I just drew. I had Library out though and still got a card even though it cost me 4 life. He won that game, but he was at 2 life when it ended. Game 1 I didn't drop below 19 and Game 3 was 18.
He was also using Soltari Priest in place of Avenger since he didn't have Avengers. The 2 damage from that is what ended up killing me game 2.
1-0; 2-1
Round 2 vs. Standardish GU Polymorph
Game 1 was pretty fast so I didn't know what he was doing aside from ramping mana. Then between games Mass Polymorph came to mind as to what he was doing.
Game 2 his Polymorphs pretty much turned into more mana creatures. Mass Polymorph resulted in giving him Ulamog and Iona (naming White). StP in my hand is useless with Iona out, but thankfully Mangara was out and active (didn't have a Karakas) so what would have normally ended the game only gave him 10 life.
2-0; 4-1
Round 3 vs. Mono White Life Gain
Note: He's a decent player despite what the deck type makes you think.
Game 1 took awhile since he was running lots of maindeck removal (Wrath, Day, Path, StP) with the lifegain. I have more threats than he has removal though and take the win after dealing a total of 43 damage throught the game.
Game 2 I had boarded out 2 Knights and a Pridemage in favor of 3 Paths since I know he had Ascendants from game 1 and that was the only win condition I saw. This game showed how persistent his deck was since it still took me forever to kill him despite Wasting his Kabira Crossroads and removing Plains (and other things at times) with Mangara+Karakas before he finally removed it. I knew my life wasn't an issue, so I took the hit from Library a few times during the game. He played Felidar Sovereign twice, but both times it was met with StP/Path. After all of his life gain, I ended up dealing him a total of 89 damage to get the win. Bonehoard was great here for the short time it was on the board (he disenchanted it) since it was giving my Avenger +7/+7 which helped against the life gain.
3-0; 6-1
Round 4 vs. R/g Goblins
Same guy as last week.
Split for first and 2nd again but played it out for fun.
3-0-1; 6-1-1
Game 1 I slowly kill myself with Horizon Canopy but eventually pull out the win with 3 life to spare.
Game 2: He hits me hard one turn with Piledriver, but he runs out of gas and I recover with Avengers and a 10/10 Germ put in by Stoneforge.
Sylvan Library - Still loving the card advantage, especially when I know I can afford to take the hit for multiple cards.
Bonehoard - I liked this much more than I expected. Its obviously not good early on outside of a chump blocker, but mid-late game is where it shines since there will likely be plenty of creatures in the graveyard. I'd much rather have this equipped to an Avenger over a Jitte. Despite how good Jitte is, I typically only bring it in for aggro matches if I know they're running it as well just to blank their copy, otherwise I'll SfM up a Sword first.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
i find bonehoard to be a lovely idea, i have to try this myself
and congratulations on the finish
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
@Whippoorwill
Grats on the finish !!
Just wondering have you tried out Sensei's Divining Top or mirri's guile over slyvan library ? And also don't you find your build abit slow... im running GnT aswell but i have 3 noble and 1 gaes cradle to boost my mana.
@Bonehoard
Very interesting indeed.. i may have to try it aswell but i wouldn't cut jitte for it what i'd cut is Sols.., jitte can easily deal with horde of 1/1 blockers, you don't have always the luxury of evasion thus i still find jitte very useful.
@ALL GnT users
Don't you feel the need for noble heirarch ? I've tried removing them but i felt the deck played out slowly and had mana issues especially with no vial on the board.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Thanks.
Re: Sylvan Library/Mirri's Guile/Sensei's Divining Top:
I thought about Mirri's Guile (I think you had suggested it last week), but I like the option of drawing extra cards if needed. I've drawn cards off it enough times to keep it in there instead of Guile. Top I hadn't considered and honestly it seems worse without Bob since I have to pay the mana to use it, for that I would rather use Guile.
Re: Noble Hierarch & Gaea's Cradle:
I really don't like the idea of Hierarch and Cradle since the deck isn't that mana intensive, especially since I dropped my mana curve considerably over the build I played last week. Now most things cost 2 for me so Hierach would be dead for the most part outside of turn 1-2 unless I change the deck considerably to fit things in like Elspeth and/or Baneslayer which benefit more from the mana accel.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mrjumbo03
True... Burn, being really cheap to put together, plus with the release of FnL premium deck is always present in tourneys... in 2 tournaments I've recently played... I played against burn 3 times... I went 2-1... I was thinking, wouldn't putting in a Dragon's Claw in the sb to solidify the match to the point that you can't possibly lose be worth 1 slot? I don't know, maybe it's just me but I recently opened up 3 slots in my sb because I found the relic-warders to be underwhelming... and I'm seriously considering putting in a miser's dragon's claw just to shove it to all the burn players... what do you guys think?
If you want to play bad cards for a fringe matchup, try CoP:Red or Aegis of Honor.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Whippoorwill
Thanks.
Re: Sylvan Library/Mirri's Guile/Sensei's Divining Top:
I thought about Mirri's Guile (I think you had suggested it last week), but I like the option of drawing extra cards if needed. I've drawn cards off it enough times to keep it in there instead of Guile. Top I hadn't considered and honestly it seems worse without Bob since I have to pay the mana to use it, for that I would rather use Guile.
Re: Noble Hierarch & Gaea's Cradle:
I really don't like the idea of Hierarch and Cradle since the deck isn't that mana intensive, especially since I dropped my mana curve considerably over the build I played last week. Now most things cost 2 for me so Hierach would be dead for the most part outside of turn 1-2 unless I change the deck considerably to fit things in like Elspeth and/or Baneslayer which benefit more from the mana accel.
Really ? in my playtesting i found the deck to be somewhat mana intensive our build is almost similar. Here's my build
Lands [21]
1 Forest
1 Gaea's Cradle
2 Plains
2 Karakas
4 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy
Creatures [28]
3 Mother of Runes
3 Noble Hierarch
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Serra Avenger
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Mangara of Corondor
2 Mirran Crusader
3 Knight of the Reliquary
Spells [11]
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
i ran 7 3cc creatures as compared to 6 with you. you also run sylvan library it could serve as a cantrip in searching for lands when needed via fetch or kotr.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mchainmail
If you want to play bad cards for a fringe matchup, try CoP:Red or
Aegis of Honor.
It's not like I want to play them for no reason, it's just that the number of burn in my area is ridiculously absurd because of the freaking premium deck release which might justify 1 slot to push that match to impossible to lose... no matter what you say about burn, it can still win games (i know it's not likely to win tourneys) and hey, it's not like we roll over that deck anyway... in any case, i found an even better card against burn...
WARMTH! Can't wait to get this out against a burn opponent... Hahaha
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
CoP:Red will be always better, it also useful vs Goblin MU.
Re: [Deck] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fatal
CoP:Red will be always better, it also useful vs Goblin MU.
CoP: Red also works against Progenitus, so it has that going for it as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
_erbs_
Really ? in my playtesting i found the deck to be somewhat mana intensive our build is almost similar. Here's my build
i ran 7 3cc creatures as compared to 6 with you. you also run sylvan library it could serve as a cantrip in searching for lands when needed via fetch or kotr.
Looking at the list it is quite similar, so it might just be me then. I've never really worried about having enough mana as long as I've had 2 lands that tap for colored mana. And like you mentioned, Library helps make sure I get lands when I needed it.
If anything though, I would add Hierarch but not Cradle since the amount of Green mana needed is minimal and it would mainly be used for equipment casting/equipping.
