[Deck] Merfolk

I've been running 13 islands and have been very satisfied with them. However, 1 of Dustbowl & no manlands of any sort? That makes Standstill much less useful and significantly weakens your Landstill-ish matchups. As bad as they are, I would run 3 Faerie Conclave over 2 Islands & the Dust Bowl in that scenario. CIPT is aggravating, but Conclave does evade, provide blue & operate under a Standstill. Jittes belong maindeck, as you really have no other form of removal (plus all the awesome things they do normally...). Stifle is nice, but you currently aren't running either Rishadan Port or Phyrexian Dreadnought, lessening their utility. They can come in from the sideboard against decks where they shine, but if I had to choose maindeck which to run, Jitte wins almost every time. If you have a ton of islands in your meta (or your Tidal Warriors survive somehow...) Seasinger can be fine. Otherwise, aren't they a bit a situational? Have fun, the deck (most any version) is a blast to play.

I'd prefer Factories over Conclaves then.

Edit: oh right, this is the DTB forum, so I have to make some argumentation and not post a 1-line post, so I'll just state the obvious then:

Factory doesn't come into play tapped, costs less to activate, you don't need blue mana that bad if you got an Aether Vial and can pump. You can keep an opening hand with a Factory as your only land and an Aether Vial. You can't keep an opening hand with Conclave as your only land and an Aether Vial.

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Originally Posted by Skeggi

I'd prefer Factories over Conclaves then.

Edit: oh right, this is the DTB forum, so I have to make some argumentation and not post a 1-line post, so I'll just state the obvious then:

Factory doesn't come into play tapped, costs less to activate, you don't need blue mana that bad if you got an Aether Vial and can pump. You can keep an opening hand with a Factory as your only land and an Aether Vial. You can't keep an opening hand with Conclave as your only land and an Aether Vial.

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I don't disagree with you at all, in fact I support all your points. However, he specifically mentioned both budget & not having Factories. Can we agree that Mutavault> Factory> Faerie Conclave/Blinkmoth Nexus/whatever manland > NO Manlands?

Sorry, no. Comes into play tapped is a dealbreaker. I wouldn't run Conclaves over Islands or Blinkmoth Nexus. That said, I think I wouldn't run Blinkmoth Nexus over Islands either.

You can consider though, with such a high Island count to run Vedalken Shackles. Oh, and maindeck Back to Basics is stronger too.

Shackles is a viable option with an island count of 15-16 and would be better than the watered down mana denial of Stifle at that point. Hell, with only (unimpressive on their own) guys and Vial, they would probably better than Standstills at that point. Without both Manlands, Vial and Waste effects, is Standstill going to be a positive or a liability? You can't go T1 Cursecatcher/Tidal Warrior, T2 Standstill without manlands and get anything other than A) mocked B) monkeyslapped by your opponent. Also, the later you wait to drop Standstill (by finally having either board position or a Vial) the better the odds of your opponent either having board position, or worse yet, a devastating response (Grip, counter, flash, removal, something). Also, is the consensus to run Jitte in the main? If not, why??

Jitte is good against decks which deal alot of damage through little creatures because 1) it kills those little creatures and 2) you can restore your lifeloss. If your meta consists of nothing but Zoo, Merfolk, Goblins and Sligh, yes, Jitte in the main is a good option, but you'd really rather play combo.

Your point about Standstill is a very valid one. If you're not going to run any manlands, it's probably best to cut them completely. You will need something else that will create some form of card advantage though, like the aforementioned Vedalken Shackles or perhaps Sower of Temptation.

I have found Jitte to be good against other decks as well. I really want to see one against Goblins (or any other tribal deck). It has been fine against Stompy - both Dragon & Faerie, with me facing Dragon& winning and losing to the %$#@ Merfolk with Faerie, largely off Jitte. It allows out fairly unimpressive critters to simulate being larger and more fearsome than they really are, beyond the obvious removal element. I keep trying to fit three in the maindeck & keep failing, for lack of room (although I have been packing the third in the board). In a budget version, if they are available, I would run as many as possible.

Post-new rules: Without manaburn, does someone think that Wake Thrasher should be played now as a four-of? Or its 3Cc it's still to high to run a complete playset?
Men, I love the idea of smashing someone's face with three of four 'Thrasher :cool:

Also, what do you think will be the impact of the new combat rules on the Goblin matchup?

To answer your first question: no. Three is still the max in my opinion.

To answer your second question: Goblins is still faster and alot more explosive than Merfolk. Goblins strength come from the fact that Lackey, Piledriver and Ringleader are insane cards. The fact that SCG loses a bit of its strength and Fanatic will be replaced by something like Frogtosser Banneret won't heavily improve this match-up for us. It'll still be hard.

@Jitte: the problem I find with it is that it's 1) mana-demanding and 2) not good in multiples. In this deck it's not hard to find a guy to carry it, so that's not the real problem. And yeah, they're also good against stompy decks, especially for the main reason you described.

scratch what I said about manlands. I originally thought they'd cost me an arm and a leg, but I found a cardshop that was selling them for lees than 5$ each so now i have a playset.

anyways, i was wondering if the red splash is viable for this deck. I remember U/R fish used to be a pretty big deal back in old T1/1.5 several years ago, because Fire/Ice and Grim Lavamancer were uber. Is that still the case? Would either of those cards help the terribad Goblin matchup?
I'm asking because i have four deltas and volcanics are the only dual lands I have so I kind of feel moved to use them.

My new list:

(20) Land
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
12 Island

(21) Creatures
4 Cursecatcher
2 Tidal Warrior
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
3 Wake Thrasher

(19) Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spellsnare

I decided to up the Wake Thrasher count and dump Stifles from the mainboard for spellsnare. tell me what you guys think

Also, rules question:
If I use Tidal Warrior's ability to turn a land into an island until end of turn at the end of an opponent's turn, does that mean that their land remains an island until the end of my turn? If I remember correctly, thats how until end of turn effects worked when I played slide all those years ago, so I'm wondering if the rules have changed or not.

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Originally Posted by Antonius

scratch what I said about manlands. I originally thought they'd cost me an arm and a leg, but I found a cardshop that was selling them for lees than 5$ each so now i have a playset.

anyways, i was wondering if the red splash is viable for this deck. I remember U/R fish used to be a pretty big deal back in old T1/1.5 several years ago, because Fire/Ice and Grim Lavamancer were uber. Is that still the case? Would either of those cards help the terribad Goblin matchup?
I'm asking because i have four deltas and volcanics are the only dual lands I have so I kind of feel moved to use them.

My new list:

(20) Land
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
12 Island

(21) Creatures
4 Cursecatcher
2 Tidal Warrior
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
3 Wake Thrasher

(19) Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spellsnare

I decided to up the Wake Thrasher count and dump Stifles from the mainboard for spellsnare. tell me what you guys think

Also, rules question:
If I use Tidal Warrior's ability to turn a land into an island until end of turn at the end of an opponent's turn, does that mean that their land remains an island until the end of my turn? If I remember correctly, thats how until end of turn effects worked when I played slide all those years ago, so I'm wondering if the rules have changed or not.

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I would cut 2 Tidal Warriors, 1 Wakethrasher, and 1 Factory in favor of 4 Stifles.

I find that more than 2 Wakethrashers ends up clogging up my hand, and with 20 lands i tend to get flooded, often. Tidal Warrior, in my opinion is garbage. He is only there for cuteness factor with LoA, and the colour denial isn't usually a huge deal. Stifles on the other hand, I've grown to love, they do everything from help with Goblins to helping with mana denial, also, against worse opponents, I've used them to help push things through CounterTop.

Try and get Mutavaults to replace Factories.
How has Spell Snare been working for you? I run Echoing Truth in that slot, but maybe thats wrong?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Antonius

anyways, i was wondering if the red splash is viable for this deck. I remember U/R fish used to be a pretty big deal back in old T1/1.5 several years ago, because Fire/Ice and Grim Lavamancer were uber. Is that still the case?

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In my opinion, Red just doesn't give this deck enough gains as a splash color to be better than a mono-colored build. I say this as someone who (usually) loves the White splash, but has never tried splashing Red.

The list is looking better. I think Lorddotm's suggestions about cutting cards is viable, but I personally like Tidal Warrior, although only until they give us another (better) one-drop for this deck. It's not necessarily that I always love what the card does for me, but I find it's important to have a relatively high creature count in this deck.

As far as other fun suggestions, I never had overwhelming success with the Faeries splash, but since you have a couple non-basic land slots to play with, you could try Riptide Laboratory plus Spellstutter Sprite/ Vendillion Clique. I'm not really advocating it, but it's something you might want to play around with.

Also, since you're packing 3 Wake Thrashers right now, I've found Minamo, School at Water's Edge to be a fun singleton mise-well to use in conjunction with three Thrashers. It's kind of a dumb trick, but it actually wins games from time to time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Daeniel

Post-new rules: Without manaburn, does someone think that Wake Thrasher should be played now as a four-of? Or its 3Cc it's still to high to run a complete playset?
Men, I love the idea of smashing someone's face with three of four 'Thrasher :cool:

Also, what do you think will be the impact of the new combat rules on the Goblin matchup?

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I don't understand the reasoning behind 'mana-burn -> Wake Thrasher is suddenly good.' It doesn't make any sense. If I depended on Wake Thrasher attacking the next turn, I have no problem burning myself for 4 EOT to alpha strike FTW next turn. I'll still run 2 Wake Thrasher, independent of mana burn changes.

As for the Goblin matchup, at face value it would seem that our Goblin matchup gets way better since virtually everyone in the Goblins thread is cutting Fanatic. It seems that way for now, but even with Fanatic, our Goblin matchup may still be bad. I guess we'll find out shortly when the changes officially take effect.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Antonius

Also, rules question:
If I use Tidal Warrior's ability to turn a land into an island until end of turn at the end of an opponent's turn, does that mean that their land remains an island until the end of my turn? If I remember correctly, thats how until end of turn effects worked when I played slide all those years ago, so I'm wondering if the rules have changed or not.

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Nope, "at end of turn" effects you can do that with. "Until end of turn" effects resolve. And if they trigger more "until end of turn" effects they continue to resolve until they're all gone.

I've been testing Merfolk a bit with the following list...

4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
3 Wake Thrasher

4 Aether Vial
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Force of Will
3 Stifle
3 Daze
3 Standstill
1 Wipe Away

12 Island
4 Wasteland
3 Mutavault

SB:
4 Submerge
3 Spell Snare
2 BEB
2 Hydroblast
2 Divert
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Wipe Away

I was mostly curious about some SB feedback, my thoughts going into it were something along the following.

Submerge to come in versus Zoo and UGx, being a great answer to Tarmogoyf as well as Nacatl, Coatl, Thoctar, etc. Even better if in response to a fetchland.
Spell Snare mostly there to fill holes, obviously great against alot of the format but especially CB/Goyf decks, Combo, Bg(x) decks (Hymn/Sinkhole/Shade/Goyf).
Blasts against Goblins, Burn and Zoo.
Divert against Bg(x) decks, and to a lesser degree Zoo and Burn.
Relic to fill out against GY decks Loam, Ichorid, etc.
Wipe Away as general utility, but especially against decks like Landstill, where if Planeswalkers or Humility come down and I don't have the FOW, then 1 MD +1 SB Wipe Away atleast give me a couple outs in the 75 like a possibility of getting back into the game.


VS. UG(x) +3 Submerge, +3 Spell Snare; -3 Stifle, -3 Daze (maybe keep the Waste+Stifle package against 4c, but stuff more like Probasco and UGw it seems like removal for their Goyf would be more relevant)

VS. Zoo +4 Submerge, +2 BEB/Divert?; -3 Standstill, -2 Relic, -1 Wipe Away (Divert seems good if they are playing a Burn heavy list or 4x PTE, if they are running more guys Lavamancer and/or Thoctar than BEB is probably superior)

VS. Goblins +2 BEB, +2 Hydroblast, +2 Spell Snare; -3 Standstill, -2 Relic of Progenitus, -1 Wipe Away

VS. Landstill +3 Spell Snare, +1 Wipe Away, +1 Relic of Progenitus; -2 Umezawa's Jitte, -3 Standstill

VS. Combo +3 Spell Snare, + 2 BEB, +2 Hydroblast; -4 Aether Vial, -2 Umezawa's Jitte, -1 Wipe Away

VS. Agro Loam +4 Submerge, +4 Blasts, +1 Relic of Progenitus; -3 Stifle, -3 Standstill, -2 Cursecatcher, -1 Wipe Away

VS. Bg(x) +3 Spell Snare, +2 Divert, +1 Wipe Away, +1 Relic of Progenitus; -3 Stifle, -3 Standstill, -1 Cursecatcher


I just wanted to see if these lines of thought/boarding were more or less on the same page as everyone else.

@Antonius: your list looks pretty solid. I myself am not a fan of Tidal Warriors though, I've tried them and didn't like them because their ability was too narrow to be useful. Also, there are plenty of 1-drops you'd prefer turn 1, so there's no real need for extras. You may want to replace those with any of the aforementioned cards.

@from_Cairo: I'd run 4 Standstills, they enable you to power you to amazing brokeness. Without Standstill the deck 'runs out of gas' soon enough and you'll find that you and your opponent may have the same amount of cards on the table, but the card quality on the other side is generally better. The 1-of Wipe Away seems like a good candidate to drop for this.

All-in-all I'm not a Wipe Away fan. The card simply costs too much, and while you can vial in a UU Lord, the double blue from a Wipe Away can cost you the game. Echoing Truth is probably alot better if you want to use bounce.

You also have zero creature-stealers, like Threads of Disloyalty, Sower of Temptation, Seasinger or Mind Harness. They've become an essential part of the Merfolk game because they create card advantage, and Merfolk is in desperate need of card advantage.

About your sideboardplan: if you're going for control, like you do in the first scenario, I'd prefer Threads of Disloyalty over Spell Snare. The beauty is that people usually don't side in Grips against Merfolk anyway. I myself am not a big fan of Divert and BEB. Having to keep mana open sucks anyway. You may have to think and calculate odds and stuff.

Against Zoo I wouldn't side out the Standstills. They may come across as slow, but they're very needed to create that card advantage because Zoo is one of those decks with high card quality. You may want to cut Dazes instead, because it drops your tempo. You really want to cut the Dazes if you won game 1, which you should have :wink:.

Against Goblins: well I'm still not sold on BEB and Hydroblast, they may cancel out a strong Goblin card, but again, you need quality. Quality like Back to Basics and Propaganda come to mind, but you run neither in your sideboard. Dropping Standstill in this match-up is understandable, because they also have Vial, but they don't have manlands. I'd keep the Standstills.

Against Landstill: what 2cc cards are you affraid of in Landstill that you side in 3x Spell Snare? Counterspell? What else do they have? Oh, that's right, no 2cc cards. You do take your Standstills out against Landstill obviously, your Jitte's also seem to be of less use. Stuff that you're affraid of are: recurring Explosives and Humility. So you keep your Stifles and side in extra bounce. Islandwalk will do the rest.

Against Combo: that looks pretty solid. Although you may want to consider keeping your Jittes because lifegain is a bitch against Tendrils.

Against Aggro Loam: that looks pretty solid. It's a hard match-up in my eyes, no use of Islandwalk, insensitive to counters, huge card quality and big card advantage once they're up and running. Submerge is the best choice against this deck; it's basically a 0 costing instant Timewalk. Against Aggro Loam I always like to steal those big creatures like the Terravores and the Countryside Crushers, but bouncing a Countryside Crusher can be fun too :smile:.

Against Eva Green//The Rock: there's a very big chance they have Pernicious Deed. Don't side out those Stifles.

Hope this helps, they're ofcourse just my opinion and are probably in no way the general consensus :wink:

I could see running a creature stealing effect in Submerges place I suppose, since they serve a similar function of helping against agro, or huge guys. That might be the right call.

My logic on Wipe Away is that it's definitely there as a late game card so the UU isn't a huge concern, and I like the fact that it's a pretty guaranteed out against other Blue decks. At least in the sense that you get a full turn if you bounce the problem end step as it's rarely counterable. Echoing Truth strikes me as being more versatile in that it can be a late game spell but can also be a quick answer to a Phyrexian Dreadnought or double Nacatl or something, like I could see it randomly being nice on turn 2-4 where Wipe Away will almost never be. I will test some more against the Landstill match up (this is the match I had in mind with Wipe Away) and see how relevant the Split Second really is.

On Dazes vs. Standstill against Zoo, I'm not sure. My worry was that if they get a quick Kird Ape/Nacatl or even worse Grim Lavamancer than Standstill is very dead in hand, where Daze could still slow the bleeding by stopping a Pridemage or Thoctar from coming down. Daze is definitely alot worse on the draw though, the tempo will probably hurt more than the threat resolving would, so I guess it might depend on whether you win game 1 or not.

I think the Blasts work as a form of card quality, since they serve as counters to you're opponents card advantage, Ringleader, Siege-Gang, etc. Also they leave you with a few more answers to turn 1 Lackey. Though they don't help much if Goblins gets an active Vial, I suppose B2B and Propaganda both become alot worse in those situations too though, since they don't need to tie up their mana to cast guys. I think boarding out Standstill is definitely right against Goblins, they match your Vials, they have Wastes sometimes Ports to answer your Mutavaults, and Gempalm Incinerator that can cycle to answer man lands as well. I think that's just too many variables that can shut off Standstill.

Spell Snare answers EE@2, Standstill, and Counterspell vs Landstill, I'd agree it's not amazing, but it's better than Jitte and your own Standstills. So if you're taking out 5 cards, after the 3rd Relic and 2nd Bounce spell, there's room for 3 other cards, of my remaining board choices, Spell Snare is the only one that's relevant. I agree Stifle stays in, it's incredible against Landstill (Decree, Wasteland, Engineered Explosives).

Does Eva Green usually run Deed SB? I was thinking it would have Engineered Plague, thus my boarding in the extra Wipe Away, and answers to Hymn/Sinkhole and the GY hate for Goyf and Tombstalker. I definitely agree on The Rock though that Stifle would stay in over Divert, I guess it depends if you see the BB disruption spells game 1, whether you assume they are playing a more agro-disruption or controlly shell, and thus anticipate Deed post-board or Engineered Plague.

heres my latest build:

(19) Land
11 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland

(18) Creatures
4 Cursecatcher
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Merrow Reejerey
2 Wake Thrasher

(23) Spells
4 Aether Vial
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Standstill
2 Echoing Truth
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Stifle
2 Spellsnare

So, I finally decided to get rid of Tidal Warrior. I dumped him to make room for stifles, though I will say that I feel like running more merfolk instead. Have Cold-Eyed Selkie or Grimoire Thief ever been considered for this deck? I think the later has the potential to be quite good.

Cut 2 Spell Snare for 1 Stifle and 1 Daze. I used to be a huge fan of Spell Snare and I hated Stifle. Spell Snare is good, but you don't need it in Merfolk.

I don't think the deck has room for another 3 drop like CES. If you want to try a 2-drop, I think Inkfathom Infiltrator is much better than Grimoire Thief, since you're running Jitte MD.

I've been running Grimoire Thief and loving him. However, that being said, he doesn't have the ability to be game-breaking unless you are running a version of the deck that is extremely counterspell heavy imo. And while I love cute (and to an extent partially useful) to justify the Thief you need to be able to protect him & retain him as not only something sucking cards off their deck but threatening an increasingly devastating sac/counter. I will be experimenting in that direction after the SCG $5K Boston event, as I love the Thief, but testing time is at a premium right now. What seems to happen, far too often, is I get 3-6 cards out of their deck, they find a way to kill him, the game continues. The fact that he does suck removal is a positive, but 2-6 damage & 3-6 cards (at random) isn't the effect I am working towards. I'm debating adding Sword of Light & Shadow and heavy counters to go more controllish Merfolk, but time will tell whether that is viable or not.