[Deck] UW(x) Landstill

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Originally Posted by mossivo1986

Welcome back...

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Thanks. I am on a mac, and I'm unwilling to jump threw the hoops required to use MWS on it, only real cards in my testing. I took some of your advice, the list looks like this now:

Land [23]:

1 Academy Ruins
1 Dust Bowl/Wasteland
3 Usine de Mishra
1 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
4 Island
2 Plains
2 Poluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Tundra

Blue [19]:

1 Jace Beleren
3 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill

non Blue [18]:

4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Path to Exile
1 Wrath of God
1 Humility
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Decree of Justice
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Sensei's Divining Top


These changes were made with a Agro meta in mind. (thanks Rockout.) I have 3 CB in the side, so I went for the 4/2 island/plains split.

Actually this is the side I have landed on for the side:

3 reb
3 counterbalance
3 Relic
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Engineered Plague
2 Ajani

I'm not sure about the tutors.

I did a bunch of testing against Naya Burn game one (alla GP chi town top 8) and am pretty happy with the list for that match up. I post my thoughts after testing the side board matches.

Is there a reason that Cunning Wish is played over Enlightened Tutor in the mainboard? Right now, I'm running one Enlightened Tutor with a Vedalken Shackles, Moat and Crucible. Is Cunning Wish usually run when you're not playing Counterspell? I'm getting into Legacy and like to play control archetypes. This deck seemed like a natural fit for me. Thanks for any insights.

Enlightened Tutor is card disadvantage in a deck that lives off card advantage. 1 main deck is alright or as a wish target but when you start running 2 to 4 you start hindering your draws.

I don't know why people don't run counterspell and cunning wish. I've seen lists with both and I can't see running landstill without at least 2 counterspells. Play style has a lot of do with the way you build your own build of landstill. Feel free to copy someones list but it's hard to say, without testing, that you want to run wish or not run wish or run vindicate and wish or whatever combination.

Side note: I know moss is going to comment saying you run clique over counterspell and I say that makes no sense.

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Originally Posted by rockout

Enlightened Tutor is card disadvantage in a deck that lives off card advantage. 1 main deck is alright or as a wish target but when you start running 2 to 4 you start hindering your draws.

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Card advantage doesnt matter if your board is superior compared to your opponents or it's a bad match-up. When casting ETuor for Humility/Moat to stop the assault, an EE or CB/Top component to lock the board up or Runed Halo/Counterbalance against Combo, you have the edge of casting for whatever you want.

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I don't know why people don't run counterspell and cunning wish. I've seen lists with both and I can't see running landstill without at least 2 counterspells. Play style has a lot of do with the way you build your own build of landstill. Feel free to copy someones list but it's hard to say, without testing, that you want to run wish or not run wish or run vindicate and wish or whatever combination.

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I switch between both. I'm currently playing CSpell because I get a tempo advantage compared to Clique,

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Card advantage doesnt matter if your board is superior compared to your opponents or it's a bad match-up. When casting ETuor for Humility/Moat to stop the assault, an EE or CB/Top component to lock the board up or Runed Halo/Counterbalance against Combo, you have the edge of casting for whatever you want.

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Citrus-God beat me to it. I don't care if my singleton Enlightened Tutor is card disadvantage because the cards I'm getting with it are so dominant to the board state that I'll be reaping insane virtual card advantage in no time.

My question is whether Cunning Wish's added versatility and pitchability are better than Enlightened Tutor's speed and efficiency. I can easily hold up Counterspell mana and cast Enlightened Tutor end of turn but if it's a tight game, my opponent may be bottlenecking my mana and Cunning Wish may be a dead card or at least forces me to tap out end of turn. I would hate to tap out in the mirror just to have something like Fact resolve in response.

I would have thought that Eternal Dragon would go hand in hand with Cunning Wish as it helps to develop your mana early so that you're better equipped to abuse the Wish in the mid-late game. I haven't seen any of these lists running Dragon and Wish together. Is there a reason for that?

Because my only experience in the format is testing mostly Threshold decks for months before the Grand Prix, I don't have the experience to know which is generally stronger. Legacy strikes me as a very tempo oriented format and Cunning Wish doesn't appear to fit well at first glance and that's why I ask. I haven't had much success with the card in the past.

As an aside, why are there no Wing Shards in the posted Wish boards?

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I switch between both. I'm currently playing CSpell because I get a tempo advantage compared to Clique,

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I would have thought the opposite. Counterspell means you did nothing on your mainphase but Vendilion Clique at end of your opponent's draw step means you just took the best card in their hand and you got a creature on board so that you didn't lose any tempo doing nothing on your own mainphase.

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Originally Posted by Hitman82

I would have thought the opposite. Counterspell means you did nothing on your mainphase but Vendilion Clique at end of your opponent's draw step means you just took the best card in their hand and you got a creature on board so that you didn't lose any tempo doing nothing on your own mainphase.

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It's like this, when you cast Clique, you don't always get rid of something good. And they still get to use mana on their own turn with the card they topdecked off Clique. With Counterspell, you counter what you want, at the expense of them tapping mana for it. And Counterspells steal a lot of turns that way.

Edit. I still play with Cunning Wish. I realize I lose most post board games, not because I dont have enough cards to board in for game 2s, but because my deck isn't consistent enough without Wish. But if I tamper with Enlighten Tutor more, I might end up playing that instead.

If I have to break a lance for enlightened tutor, let's not forget that he's not alone in the deck. It's obv a key card in early game in our opponent's eot. Thought, it's still a great card with a couple or land more on the table it's great even cast in our MP, since it has a great sinergy with jace beleren and sensei's divining top, which in some ways balance the card disadvantage created by tutor. (Yeah, top is great! If I didn't fear to lower my blue count to 18 I'd go again 3 bs 3 tops - i'm currently playing 4 bs 2 top, but I'd absolutely want the 3rd...I could add the 3rd one by going back to 61 cards, but that don't sounds so good to me...) Preboard etutor grants you access to most of your stuff, virtually doubling your tools: it's the main reason why I started to play without cwish (vindicate was far away from landstill player's minds at that time, god bless it!), and I haven't pulled out disk. A second copy SB and a properly built SB helps you to reach faster your answer postboard, whith wish doesn't (at least, not in my personal experience with wish).

Hi folks, there´s a tourney at sunday and I´ve been tooling around with a bunch of differente ls lists, but for know I want to try something like this:
// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
3 [UNH] Island
2 [A] Underground Sea
1 [U] Scrubland
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
4 [B] Tundra
2 [OD] Plains (3)
1 [6E] Swamp (1)

// Creatures
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
1 [LRW] Jace Beleren

// Spells
3 [OD] Standstill
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AT] Swords to Plowshares
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [CNF] Path to Exile
3 [AP] Vindicate
1 [ARE] Diabolic Edict
1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
1 [7E] Counterspell

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [OD] Ray of Distortion
SB: 2 [FNM] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 2 [6E] Perish
SB: 2 [U] Blue Elemental Blast


The 1-off CS is just for the blue count, otherwise it would be top. Actually I don´t really like tutor MD, but I need the sideboard space. I´m thinking about -1 Path +1 Vindicate, `cause otherwise chalice really hurts.
The meta I´m expecting is nearly no combo, little loam and a lot of Dreadnought/NQG/x and R/x Goyf-Beats. Any suggestions other than "Wish is better than vindicate" or smth. like that?

Looking forward to some good advice,
NQN

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Originally Posted by NQN

Hi folks, there´s a tourney at sunday and I´ve been tooling around with a bunch of differente ls lists, but for know I want to try something like this:
// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [ON] Polluted Delta
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
3 [UNH] Island
2 [A] Underground Sea
1 [U] Scrubland
3 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
4 [B] Tundra
2 [OD] Plains (3)
1 [6E] Swamp (1)

// Creatures
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
1 [LRW] Jace Beleren

// Spells
3 [OD] Standstill
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AT] Swords to Plowshares
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [CNF] Path to Exile
3 [AP] Vindicate
1 [ARE] Diabolic Edict
1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
1 [7E] Counterspell

// Sideboard
SB: 2 [OD] Ray of Distortion
SB: 2 [FNM] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [SHM] Kitchen Finks
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [LRW] Ajani Goldmane
SB: 2 [6E] Perish
SB: 2 [U] Blue Elemental Blast


The 1-off CS is just for the blue count, otherwise it would be top. Actually I don´t really like tutor MD, but I need the sideboard space. I´m thinking about -1 Path +1 Vindicate, `cause otherwise chalice really hurts.
The meta I´m expecting is nearly no combo, little loam and a lot of Dreadnought/NQG/x and R/x Goyf-Beats. Any suggestions other than "Wish is better than vindicate" or smth. like that?

Looking forward to some good advice,
NQN

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Yo.
I agree with you on MD tutor being stupid in your build. You could easily move E.T. to the SB and go:
-1SB/+1MD: Ajani/Finks/Relic (with Relic being my #1 choice, due to Tarmos being well represented in your meta)

Alternatively, you could add the 4th Vindicate and cut those Ray of Distortions altogether (granting you 1 additional SB slot -> 3rd BEB? I don't like them as 2ofs). Ray of D. is simply too slow and costs too much for what it does.
I see that you want to beat CB reliably, but with 4 Vindicates, 3 EE and 4 Snares, you should be good.
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How did you like Clique in testing? I'm still very skeptical of the card: As a beater it just feels like win-more and as disruption it's really not superb. I haven't tested it much, I have to admit, but since it never really felt like it 2-for-1d consistently I just dropped it.
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Oh. Just saw your SB boasts 5 life gainers PLUS 2 BEBs. That really is overkill, no matter how you turn it. Even if your meta consisted of 30% aggro/burn decks, I would urge you to change that. You could probably add 2 COPs: Red (toolbox material) cutting the BEBs and 1 Fink 1 Ajani for that matter, granting you 2 additional slots.
If I were you, I'd probably go: -2 BEB, +1 Finks + 1 MD card so you can find room for the 4th Standstill (it's the best card in the deck afterall, especially so, since your meta does not seem Vial-infested!). If you're afraid of Standstill being a dead draw against all those Dreadstill kids, at least add a second Jace, or Fact or Fiction or whatever - Due to the lack of Wrath and Humlity Speedstill craves CA more than any other LS archetype, so it can maintain a positive threads/removal ratio until finding the next Standstill (which is also why I'd suggest keeping that 2nd PtE in).

Even while testing the new model I am currently modifying with Rockout "go team awesome" I am still finding counterspell to be not what I want it to be. Oh well no biggy.

What do you want it to be? I want it to be awesome, and it is usually that. Is it the early double blue that's killing you? If it is, I completely understand, and I see why you play clique instead. I just don't feel comfortable cutting the hard counters so low, even with the semi-discard of clique. My problem with him is the same problem rock and eva have with discard, it doesn't stop good topdecks.

That's why you run counterspell. F your top deck I still win.

hi Guys...
Seeing the number of answers to creatures in this deck, do you think Negate would actually be better than Counterspell here...?
As I realized it's kinda hard to hit double blue and uses Counterspells in the earlier turns...

I'd advise searching the thread for the term, "negate." and read back about 30 pages.

The biggest weakness I've experienced with Counterspell is that you get crushed by Spell Snare in counter battles.

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Originally Posted by Misplayer

The biggest weakness I've experienced with Counterspell is that you get crushed by Spell Snare in counter battles.

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The big upside, however, is that (unless you play against MUC) you're almost always going to be the guy running the most hard counters.

I´m not sure about Clique as well, but I like the picture ;) It´s also good against Dreadstill and Loam I guess. But then again, it often is only "look at target players hand, gain 3 life". Ray is also nutz against Dreadstill and since the most balance-type decks are starting to add moar cc3 cards to their Maindecks, I thought that would solve the "problem" (one of the smaller ones for sure). If I cut Tutor and 2 CLiques I could add 1 Vindicate, 1 Standstill and maybe a second Counterspell?
About the Overkill SB thing: ALl the cards you mentioned will also be boarded against Loam and Ajani will go in against Control. So the cards are very versatile in my opinion. But I was never as doubtful about which list I should play then this time :S

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Originally Posted by Misplayer

The biggest weakness I've experienced with Counterspell is that you get crushed by Spell Snare in counter battles.

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Only problem I have with Spell Snare is that they only aid you only when you initiate the threat.

How do you mean? Maybe it's just the games I've played but sometimes I wish I could run spell snare 5 and 6.

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Originally Posted by 3duece

How do you mean? Maybe it's just the games I've played but sometimes I wish I could run spell snare 5 and 6.

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I think citrus-god was talking about mirror matches, where Snare in counterwar is good only if we are the players who try to resolve a threat. I cast e.g. elspeth: then my opponet play CS, the me snare, than maybe him another CS, then snare and so on lasting with fows. If i start and snare is by my side, the only way my oppo can counter it is by fow. The same is true if it's the oppo who tries to resolve a threat, since it's snare's are better and cheaper than our CS: attaking fow+snare is a better position than defending Fow+CS, that's pretty clear. However, not so many archetypes packs counterspell, while many are beginning to run snare, which may cause some problem to us due to CS's cc2. (I can hear mossivo say "run clique"! :laugh: )