Re: [Deck] UBGx Landstill
Okay guys. I have been testing the deck for GP Lille and mostly against top decks I find most difficult: RUG Delver, Omnitell and Miracles. Mostly boarded games and trying to find a good SB strategy. Against Omnitell, I can bring in so much anti-combo stuff to turn an unfavorable preboard match to favorable postboard. I added Innocent Bloods to board to be able to kill any RUG threat even with low mana, but sometimes they have it all and still win. I don't think any deck will ever be that much favored against RUG Delver, but I can live with the MU being 50-50.
That brings us to Miracles: I have yet to find a winning SB plan. Postboard games are always decided on who gets Jace active first, and they are better equipped for that. I have Cliques but so do they, and while I have Thoughtseizes they have red blasts, which can also answer resolved Jace - and even kill my Clique or Tar Pit if try to attack his resolved Jace with them. I don't feel like boarding in all my creatures accomplishes much unless they happen to board out all their removal. Also Shaman feels underwhelming in the matchup.
Good suggestions how to sideboard against Miracles are more than welcome. If someone has a killer SB tech card against the deck, please share your wisdom. My latest list for reference:
4/2/2 fetch
2/2/2 dual
1 island
1 swamp
2 mishra
2 tar pit
3 waste
4 shaman
3 lily
3 jace
2 seize
2 pierce
2 disfigure
3 decay
3 deed
4 force
4 bs
2 ponder
3 standstill
2 dig
0 loam
SB:
2 tarmo
1 tasigur
2 BEB / surgical (meta call)
1 seize
2 flusterstorm
3 clique
3 innocent blood
1 krosan grip
Re: [Deck] UBGx Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nastaboi
Good suggestions how to sideboard against Miracles are more than welcome. If someone has a killer SB tech card against the deck, please share your wisdom. My latest list for reference:
Zur's Weirding almost invariably just beats them when it resolves.
Re: [Deck] UBGx Landstill
Main list cliques are really good right now. They give so many different options against so many lists and if they're not expected they can be a real back-breaker. Miracles, Omnitell and Blade all hate to see clique at the wrong time.
Re: [Deck] UBGx Landstill
I don't know exactly how to solve your problems against all these decks but I can give some general advise I suppose. I will be pretty promoting of my own list, which might result in me giving pretty drastic advise so keep that in mind, maybe there is a middle line here. :)
Firstly, I don't like playing cards like DRS in this deck as you open yourself up to removal much more than usual. I would cut them and some of the more clunky stuff like the lilianas, 3rd deed, 3rd jace for perhaps innocent bloods and more Counterspells. Playing less targets for bolts, less expensive cards and more cheap removal for the threats out of RUG Delver should put you in an advantaged spot in that MU.
Talking about Counterspell, it is such a card in standstill decks, and the same goes for spell snare. Pierce is pretty bad in any deck that isn't a delver deck and you shouldn't run any if you want to have a good chance of fighting miracles and combo game 1, as you have no clock and pierce becomes terrible late-game. My personal counter-suite is 4 FoW, 3 CS, 3 Snare and it has served me well. Avoiding taxing counters is generally a good thing if you don't run the stifle build.
Regarding post board cards against miracles yes, Zur's Wierding is good if it resolves, but it of course wont (and even if it does they have REBs). I would play a number of cliques and thoughtseize in the board to bring in, which together with the suggested counter-suite should make you the master of the stack, which is where a control-mirror is decided. Other than that Null Rod or Needle are pretty good in the matchup, but they are bad with deed so I personally don't run them.
I also very much recommend the full set of mishras (together with your CTPs) over wastelands. If you want to run wasteland you should run loam, otherwise it feels poor. Trading land-drops isn't very useful for us outside matchups like lands and 12post (less coloured lands are useful vs delver as well). Mishra's also trades with Nimble Mongoose (hint hint).
And of course 4 standstill is better than 3 because running 4 ancestral is better than 3 (and if you don't like to draw multiples/draw them when they are bad you luckily play blue and have access to FoW and Brainstorm).
I run the full 4 goyfs SB so that I get a clock vs combo. Bringing in 4 goys + discard + cliques instead of removal will give you a very good post-board game vs combo which is the best the deck can do I think, it's hard to hedge enough against fair decks MD and still beat combo.
You can also potentially use goyfs in the SB vs miracles and become a sort of shardless deck post board. Winning on the stack is better I think however if you win game 1.
This is how I think of these matchups and of course these advise put you very close to my current list, which is definitely not the only way to build it, but I think that wanting to beat miracles and combo leads towards a more reactive game-plan that abuses standstill more (more reactive cards basically).
If you are at all interested my current list looks like this:
CREATURES (1)
1 Pearl Lake Ancient (this is a lol-slot, could be a snapcaster/3rd jace/4th counterspell etc
ENCHANTMENTS (7)
4 Standstill
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Night of Souls’ Betrayal
SORCERIES (1)
1 Life from the Loam
INSTANTS (24)
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
3 Disfigure (I go back and forth between bloods and disfig, bloods might be a bit better, but I really like being able to kill a 1-drop and drop standstill turn 2 OtP. It's also nice to be able to keep up snare and disfig t1 OtD.
2 Dig Through Time
1 Go for the Throat
PLANESWALKERS (2)
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
LANDS (25)
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Mishra’s Factory
SIDEBOARD (15) (Flusterstorm is a consideration)
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Thoughtseize
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Night of Souls’ Betrayal
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Krosan Grip
1 Leyline of the Void
1 Vendilion Clique (would like to play more of these, maybe cut 1-2 goyfs)
Re: [Deck] UBGx Landstill
In this meta I think the biggest challenge for a Control list is figuring out how to avoid getting caught in the switches in the early and mid-games. The late game is usually going to be ours, the question is how to get there reliably. We also need a plan to switch gears in a hurry when we're actually the beat down because we can't let the opponent have multiple bites at the apple or we're likely to lose.
My process at the moment is to avoid tapping out on my turn except when the payoff is likely to be dramatically in my favor. That means that the only card I will tap out for on my turn under normal circumstances is Standstill when I have a good board to play it on. I'm also unwilling to cede the opponent a play at 3 mana on their turn 3 so I'm using 3 Daze in the main list so that even if I tap out for Standstill on the draw I have enough options if the opponent chooses to then play Intuition or Show and Tell or True-Name Nemesis. The Dazes also give me overkill on counters in the early game when I'm at my most vulnerable after the first flurry and before we've settled into the mid-game. They're basically second wave counters and very good in that role in this meta.
I'm trying to give the list internal consistency by not playing a mix of tap out and draw-go cards. This lets me read my opening hand and the opponent's first couple of plays and know where things are headed and when the inflection point is likely to be, usually at the end of the opponent's turn 4 or 5. Liliana is a stronger option in many cases than Innocent Blood but she's a tap out option in the mid-game and she has hidden costs associated with that. Jace is a stronger option than Vendilion Clique but he's a tap out option and again the hidden costs mount.
Re: [Deck] UBGx Landstill
Yeah, I agree with mostly everything. I very strongly prefer the draw-go version nowadays as well. If I want to play a tap-out deck Shardless or TA are better at doing that I feel.
Re: [Deck] UBGx Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LarsLeif
Firstly, I don't like playing cards like DRS in this deck as you open yourself up to removal much more than usual. I would cut them and some of the more clunky stuff like the lilianas, 3rd deed, 3rd jace for perhaps innocent bloods and more Counterspells. Playing less targets for bolts, less expensive cards and more cheap removal for the threats out of RUG Delver should put you in an advantaged spot in that MU.
I have been less impressed with shamans that i've been in the past. I could try shamanless build with no lilianas and less need for different colored mana, or at least consider siding out shamans in some matchups. However I feel that lack of shamans leaves me more vulnerable to blood moon, so I have to test it out. I like your unorthodox swamp+forest as a choise of basics, I might try that one too.
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Talking about Counterspell, it is such a card in standstill decks, and the same goes for spell snare. Pierce is pretty bad in any deck that isn't a delver deck and you shouldn't run any if you want to have a good chance of fighting miracles and combo game 1, as you have no clock and pierce becomes terrible late-game. My personal counter-suite is 4 FoW, 3 CS, 3 Snare and it has served me well. Avoiding taxing counters is generally a good thing if you don't run the stifle build.
I used to run a couple of counterspells and could see their return in Lilianaless build. Earlier I felt the same about Pierce and Snare, but I have changed my mind. I used to play Snare when Hymn+goyf was a thing, but I feel it doesn't hold its weight any more. Against Delver, the only card it hits is Goyf (well Pierce is equally awful). While it's great against storm combo, it does nothing against Show and Tell, Dredge or Reanimator (well Reanimator has some targets, but still worse than Pierce). Even against Miracles where it hits CSpell, Balance and Snapcaster, Pierce hits the cards you care the most: Top, Jace and Entreat. Pierce just does so much more to me than Snare and is less of the time dead.
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Regarding post board cards against miracles yes, Zur's Wierding is good if it resolves, but it of course wont (and even if it does they have REBs). I would play a number of cliques and thoughtseize in the board to bring in, which together with the suggested counter-suite should make you the master of the stack, which is where a control-mirror is decided. Other than that Null Rod or Needle are pretty good in the matchup, but they are bad with deed so I personally don't run them.
Yea, boarding in Zur's Weirding is like boarding in another Jace, except that with Jace you at least get some value out if they happen to have an answer in their hand. I already have Seizes and Cliques but feel that it's not enough.
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I also very much recommend the full set of mishras (together with your CTPs) over wastelands. If you want to run wasteland you should run loam, otherwise it feels poor. Trading land-drops isn't very useful for us outside matchups like lands and 12post (less coloured lands are useful vs delver as well). Mishra's also trades with Nimble Mongoose (hint hint).
And of course 4 standstill is better than 3 because running 4 ancestral is better than 3 (and if you don't like to draw multiples/draw them when they are bad you luckily play blue and have access to FoW and Brainstorm).
Okay, now we are into something. I remember playing Miracles matchup in the past by attacking aggressively with Mishras. I am nowadays more conserned attacking into Swords or Terminus, but with full sets of Standstills and Factories I should be able to utilize both better in the matchup.
The problem with cutting Wastes is that they are essential in some matcups like Lands, 12-post and Infect. I don't feel like giving up against them, but then again you can't win against everything.
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You can also potentially use goyfs in the SB vs miracles and become a sort of shardless deck post board. Winning on the stack is better I think however if you win game 1.
Yea, what I really wanted was opinions on which approach is better. So you lean on staying in control role if possible and using creatures as plan be if needed. I tend to think the same, but is good to have an option to vary how you side.
Re: [Deck] UBGx Landstill
Quote:
I have been less impressed with shamans that i've been in the past. I could try shamanless build with no lilianas and less need for different colored mana, or at least consider siding out shamans in some matchups. However I feel that lack of shamans leaves me more vulnerable to blood moon, so I have to test it out. I like your unorthodox swamp+forest as a choise of basics, I might try that one too.
Yeah, my manabase is adapted to be able to cast decay through blood moon, and also to cast decay, disfig and goyf using basics against mana-denial strategies. While I never fetch basics otherwise I feel that it's a decent trade for not having to play creatures. As I feel, a lot of the decks parts are connected in a sense: Cutting DRS makes Liliana worse, Liliana makes answers like counterspell worse and cutting lilianas makes DRS worse. So either I feel that you keep both DRS + Lili or cut both. My love of counterspell made me cut liliana + drs :p
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I used to run a couple of counterspells and could see their return in Lilianaless build. Earlier I felt the same about Pierce and Snare, but I have changed my mind. I used to play Snare when Hymn+goyf was a thing, but I feel it doesn't hold its weight any more. Against Delver, the only card it hits is Goyf (well Pierce is equally awful). While it's great against storm combo, it does nothing against Show and Tell, Dredge or Reanimator (well Reanimator has some targets, but still worse than Pierce). Even against Miracles where it hits CSpell, Balance and Snapcaster, Pierce hits the cards you care the most: Top, Jace and Entreat. Pierce just does so much more to me than Snare and is less of the time dead.
I won't talk about dredge since that deck isn't anything I tune to beat, but I think that saying that Pierce hit's Jace is only partially true as no good miracles pilot will play into pierce with jace anyways against a deck with no pressure. It only hits Top on the play as well so that's also pretty unreliable. The same goes for entreat. If they know you play pierce they can easily play around it. Snare does the exact opposite: Being a hard counter for some of their best cards no matter how long the game progresses. Snare is also very good vs blade, storm, burn and a slew of other decks/cards. It just hit's so many great cards for so little mana.
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Yea, boarding in Zur's Weirding is like boarding in another Jace, except that with Jace you at least get some value out if they happen to have an answer in their hand. I already have Seizes and Cliques but feel that it's not enough.
I like Jaces more than Weirding for the reasons you give. I think that you will find it easier to play on the stack with a more counterspell-heavy version generally though, combined with the card-advantage generated by them having to kill man-lands through standstill.
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Okay, now we are into something. I remember playing Miracles matchup in the past by attacking aggressively with Mishras. I am nowadays more conserned attacking into Swords or Terminus, but with full sets of Standstills and Factories I should be able to utilize both better in the matchup.
Yes, especially since they have few ways of generating card advantage compared to you getting to deploy standstill + manlands (CB will get decayed most of the time, snapcaster snared (?) and Jace attacked by manlands). They will also struggle post-board as they have to keep "bad" card like swords and maybe terminus in to deal with your lands, while you can cut most of your removal since our creatures are part of your manabase :)
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The problem with cutting Wastes is that they are essential in some matcups like Lands, 12-post and Infect. I don't feel like giving up against them, but then again you can't win against everything.
Disfigure + NoSB MD (+1 more SB) has been very good for me vs Infect, I feel favoured overall vs them. But yes, 12post and Lands will be problematic. I wouldn't worry against 12p though, if folding against that deck was enough to make a deck bad miracles wouldn't exist. But Lands is a concern. I run Surgicals and Leyline especially for that matchup (and Reanimator), but it's a difficult matchup for sure.
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Yea, what I really wanted was opinions on which approach is better. So you lean on staying in control role if possible and using creatures as plan be if needed. I tend to think the same, but is good to have an option to vary how you side.
I think that with more counters main + cliques and discard the matchup should probably be slightly in your favour post board if you go the control-route. But if you lose g1 then time will be a factor and in that case a goyf-plan might be a better choice.
Re: [Deck] UBGx Landstill
The list I posted above has 3 weeklies in now to mixed results. It's owning Burn over multiple opponents, it's beaten Storm combo, Shardless Bug and Esper Control. It's also lost to Esper Blade and it's drawn and lost too UW Control and D&T and it lost a long one game match to Miracles.
Basically with the exception of Miracles it seems to do well against unfair blue lists and not so well against blue lists trying to do the same thing it is doing. D&T feels like it should be a 50/50 matchup but it hasn't been so far. Directed lists trying to kill it fast, like Burn and ANT have gotten tripped up counting to 20 and lost in the 4 matches so far. 8-0 in the matches, no game losses.
My feel after playing it for a bit is that it is too slow and passive to be a strong list in the meta right now. The Miracles loss was aggravating because I thought I had it won twice and both times he squirmed out from under and Entreat ended things after an hour of play. The match loss to UW Control was Jace in one game and a lone TNN going the distance with me not finding the 7 solutions in the list before he did me. I had Tasigur keeping the TNN pinned for a few turns but he eventually got plowed and I couldn't get any of 4x Innocent Blood, 1 Toxic Deluge, 1x Golgari Charm or 1x Engineered Plague to stop the bleeding.
I'm going to reconfigure slightly and go with 4 Delvers and 4 Ponders in the list, removing the 3 Spell Snares, Dimir Charm, 2 Dig Through Time and Toxic Deluge along with a Tropical Island. Too often I am finding myself with multiple Spell Snares in hand in the mid-game and no action and games that should be mine are going away in the similar mirrors.
Re: [Deck] UBGx Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FoolofaTook
I'm going to reconfigure slightly and go with 4 Delvers and 4 Ponders in the list, removing the 3 Spell Snares, Dimir Charm, 2 Dig Through Time and Toxic Deluge along with a Tropical Island. Too often I am finding myself with multiple Spell Snares in hand in the mid-game and no action and games that should be mine are going away in the similar mirrors.
I'm pondering with Delvers too, but only in sb because they don't combo with Innocent Bloods. My logic is that matchups where I want them is the one where I don't need Innocent Bloods.
The creature I want to try out in mb as 2 or 3 of is Pack Rat. I want cheap beater that is able to survive stp/Decay and my own Innocent Blood and can close game in few turns if not answered. In lategame it's ability let me recycle irrelevant cards like Spell Pierce/Thoughtseize into kind of actual win condition. Also combos with Loam. While I'm not too fond of it, there is also possibility to replace Mishra's with Mutavaults to get some form of synergy.
Re: [Deck] UBGx Landstill
The games I have mostly had trouble with over the last 3 Fridays are games where the opponent has an abundance of cheap creature removal that also hits the manlands. In matches I'm 1-4-1 against lists running Swords to Plowshares. I'm 5-0 against lists not running Swords to Plowshares. The D&T matchup was further complicated by the fact that his Rishadan Ports effectively shut down the manlands and he had Wastelands alongside the ports and plows.
The real problem I'm having is that it's rare to be in a situation where fighting over a manland is worth the investment and losing that fight is bad news if I choose to engage at that point. I had at least 1 manland on the board against Miracles for about an hour and was still unable to push through for 20 points of damage. I was sending 1 out of 2 manlands at him each turn so that he couldn't get value out of Terminus. He was able to stall successfully on half of my attacks by plowing or using Terminus. I wound up getting rid of 2 of his Jaces during the game using cliques and manlands and it just didn't matter in the end. I was at 26 life in the turn before the end and he was at 2 and he entreated for 7 angels and I just didn't have the wherewithal to win the fight over either the trigger or the spell itself. I'd spent all my counters incrementally up to that point and the active top did me in the end. I thought I'd beat him twice but he double-fetched in both cases and found what he needed with the top.
I should have conceded that game on turn 2 and boarded in some hate in the form of Krosan Grip, the 4th decay and Flusterstorm. He dropped a top on the play and then he played a top on his turn 2 as well and I was unwilling to force the 2nd top with an active top already in play. I looked at the board at that point and it had long 1 game match loss written all over it but I had 3 manlands in hand and I decided to give it a go. Mistake.
Pack Rat is an interesting idea. Every time I've tried to go down that road in Legacy it has been too slow but maybe a shell like this supports it. You want to have at least 5 mana the turn you drop it. Mutavaults are almost certainly not an improvement over Mishra's Factory. The ability to block 2 power creatures with impunity stalls the board wonderfully against many lists.
I'm shifting to Delver in this iteration because I want to add some heavy pressure to the opponent that both allows me to cast Standstill early on and to begin working through their removal when their list is all about finding the inflection point and flipping the game.
BTW, a sidenote to all of this is that Terminus has to go. If it's sitting on a list packed with counters and including Stifle and still dominating the match imagine what it singlehandedly is doing to 99% of aggro creature strategies. People say Delver was what killed off Zoo but in a meta with Terminus Zoo is DoA. You'll then have the Elves problem for slow control but killing off all creature aggro so one creature combo list can't reliably go off seems like a bad deal for Legacy in general.
Re: [Deck] UBGx Landstill
I tried old school version without Liliana and Shamans and full set of Factories and Standstills. It really was better against Miracles, but I could not win a single game against RUG Delver. So I adjusted my list with Lilianas to include more Factories, and started winning again against Miracles. I plan on taking out Shamans in the matchup and going full control route postboard.
Now all I need is a good SB plan against RUG Delver. Innocent Blood kills everything and gets nicely around Daze, but there's some conflict as I want to bring in goyfs of my own as well. 4th Decay and Liliana are options as well, but they are more vulnerable to mana denial. Disfigure hits only Delver and Deathmark hits only goyf. Another options like Smother and Diabolic Edict sound even less attractive. Any ideas? Am I missing something?
Re: [Deck] UBGx Landstill
Re: [Deck] UBGx Landstill
The RUG Delver match should be a survive the first 4 turns and then crush them affair. If you have 3 Innocent Blood in the main and 1 in the SB and you're playing 4 Mishra's Factories you're about halfway there. Don't play out your goyfs until you have card advantage and can answer their limited removal options for him. Let them play out threats into your Innocent Blood and other removal. If you get beat game 1, which will happen because of the extreme consistency of RUG Delver, sit on Stifle game 2 and become the beatdown. We have options to gain real card advantage, they don't. Just let things come to you.
Whatever you do don't crack your fetches during your turn unless you have no other choice. Crack them during RUG Delver's upkeep and cut the tempo they gain from Stifle in half.
Re: [Deck] UBGx Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FoolofaTook
Whatever you do don't crack your fetches during your turn unless you have no other choice. Crack them during RUG Delver's upkeep and cut the tempo they gain from Stifle in half.
I don't think Nastaboi was looking for that kind of advice.
@Nastaboi
Maybe you could give your new list so that we can give our opinion. I think your main concern should be the Omnishow MU (is rug so commmon ?).
Re: [Deck] UBGx Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nastaboi
Now all I need is a good SB plan against RUG Delver. Innocent Blood kills everything and gets nicely around Daze, but there's some conflict as I want to bring in goyfs of my own as well. 4th Decay and Liliana are options as well, but they are more vulnerable to mana denial. Disfigure hits only Delver and Deathmark hits only goyf. Another options like Smother and Diabolic Edict sound even less attractive. Any ideas? Am I missing something?
I think Innocent Bloods are indeed the best here, then Decay. For me it is not the matchup where I want beatdown creatures from sb. Another options are Ghastly Demise, Baleful Strix.
I have used Surgical Extraction on Wasteland/Tropical to cripple their game, but I didn't tested it enough to give objective evaluation.
Ponders mb helps a lot.
Re: [Deck] UBGx Landstill
Ok, interesting suff guys. I can't really start commenting specific posts here but reading through your comments some stuff came to my mind.
Regarding the RUG matchup I think that there is several ways to go. My removal suite of 4 Decay, 3 Disfigure and 1 GftT together with 6 Manlands, 2 Deeds and 1 Loam makes the matchup maybe 50% at most game 1, maybe only 40%. But post-board I can bring out Jace, NoSB and Pearl Lake for 4 Goyfs and my experience of post-board games is that they are generally positive, maybe 60% favourable or so. That should make the MU overall favourable. I think that Disfigure is a bit better than Bloods overall after some more games, not game 1 really, but post-board it's really important that we can drop blockers and still cast our removal-spells.
Regarding having Delvers in the board, is there a budget-concern there? Because in a deck with 25-ish lands there is no guarantee that delver is quicker as a clock than Goyf (due to flipping more seldom) and Goyf is much better defensively. Strix has the exact opposite problem, it's only good on defence. I think that Goyf is the best creature (alongside Clique) in the SB due to it being good both on defence and offence. If you want a strictly offensive creature I think that Clique is the best choice, even if you can't play it T1.
Against Miracles, it's vital to fight over what's really important. Don't Force Top for example. You have no pressure (and they don't either) so the game will go long and they will find several more, especially if they play 4 ponders. Save your counterspells for the few key-spells that matters (and avoid taxing counters if possible as the games will go long). Nastaboi, have you experienced Liliana as problematic in the MU? I feel that if the miracles player has Top, then +1ing Liliana will hurt you more then them, if you haven't triggered standstill of something?
My thoughts on the manlands in the Miracles MU is that they are mostly card advantage due to that the miracles player have to break standstill to deal with them. I value Jace much more for example. And Pearlie <3
I can absolutely recommend MD NoSB (and a second copy in the board). The card does so much work and having access to 1 already game 1 is backbreaking against a lot of decks like D&T, Infect, Young Pyramancer-decks, Elves, TNN-decks etc. The card has been very good for me.
This is my general thoughts right now at least, don't know if it helps. :)
Re: [Deck] UBGx Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jizz
Maybe you could give your new list so that we can give our opinion.
Sure. MD Clique is a flex slot.
4/2/2 fetch
2/2/2 dual
1 island
1 swamp
3 mishra
2 tar pit
2 waste
4 shaman
1 clique
3 lily
3 jace
2 seize
2 pierce
2 disfigure
3 decay
3 deed
4 force
4 bs
4 standstill
2 dig
SB:
2 tarmo
1 tasigur
2 surgical
1-2 seize
2 flusterstorm
2 clique
1 krosan grip
2-3 additional removal
0-1 something (wanted to include 2 blue blasts, but they may not be necessary in GP meta)
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I think your main concern should be the Omnishow MU (is rug so commmon ?).
While Omnishow is bad G1, I think I have enough board for it already. While RUG might not be most common among Delver decks, it's most difficult for me to beat, and if I can beat it I can beat BUG and others too.
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Originally Posted by
Tea
Submerge?
Submerge isn't a permanent answer barring certain situations, and this deck can't really use it as a tempo play only.
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Originally Posted by
FoolofaTook
The RUG Delver match should be a survive the first 4 turns and then crush them affair. If you have 3 Innocent Blood in the main and 1 in the SB and you're playing 4 Mishra's Factories you're about halfway there.
That's what the matchup is all about, except that you need more than survive first four turns - you have to stabilize. Factory can't be relied upon on early turns. It only stops Mongoose, they have Wastelands and Bolts and you are about to use your mana to other things anyway. It's okay in late game top deck mode when they have ran out of answers.
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Originally Posted by
theBloody
I think Innocent Bloods are indeed the best here, then Decay. For me it is not the matchup where I want beatdown creatures from sb. Another options are Ghastly Demise, Baleful Strix.
I don't want beatdown creatures either. I want creatures that block, and Goyf stops 2/3 their threats. Clique blocks and trades 2/3 their creatures, while obviously it's no goyf.
I used to play Ghastly Demise before Decay was a thing. I might try it again. Strix I have thought but it feels too much like a speed bump. I also like my removal to work against Infect, Painter and D&T. Then there is Dismember, but the life payment is significant.
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I have used Surgical Extraction on Wasteland/Tropical to cripple their game, but I didn't tested it enough to give objective evaluation.
Ponders mb helps a lot.
For every game you win with this cute interaction, you'll lose three having do-nothing in your deck against a resolved threat. I tested MD Ponders but they wasn't that awesome. I'd rather just have more high impact cards.
Re: [Deck] UBGx Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
LarsLeif
Regarding having Delvers in the board, is there a budget-concern there? Because in a deck with 25-ish lands there is no guarantee that delver is quicker as a clock than Goyf (due to flipping more seldom) and Goyf is much better defensively. Strix has the exact opposite problem, it's only good on defence. I think that Goyf is the best creature (alongside Clique) in the SB due to it being good both on defence and offence. If you want a strictly offensive creature I think that Clique is the best choice, even if you can't play it T1.
Budget option for me to gain clock against storm. Would have rather played cliques.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nastaboi
For every game you win with this cute interaction, you'll lose three having do-nothing in your deck against a resolved threat.
I can see that. Not really recommending it.
Re: [Deck] UBGx Landstill
@Nastaboi
You only play 3 Mishra's and 2 Wastelands and you don't have Stifle or Ponder in the mix. That makes RUG Delver much harder to deal with. You can't get on top of them even on the play and their effects will come into play against you in the first few turns.
Maybe put some Stifles in the SB? When it's good it's very good and it's never better than it is against RUG Delver's early plan.
