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I don't think additional removal is necessary against a deck like Bant. You play both Tarmogoyf (which they do as well) and Knight of the Reliquary (which they don't), who will probably outclass all other creatures in size. They can both be fetched by Green Sun's Zenith. Lightning Bolt takes care of Noble Hierarch and your own Noble Hierarchs and perhaps Qasali Pridemages give you the edge in combat. Rhox War Monk is annoying, but far less so than with traditional Zoo.
Against Merfolk. They're light on mana and would love to have more islands. Especially when they are stuck on one island you don't want to give them a second one. The same is true vs Goblins.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crazy Eddie
Sometimes 4 Paths aren't enough (against decks that run too many big creatures) and you want to increase your non burn removal.
On Green Sun's Zenith:
Which is more often the correct play?
Play A: I open with Turn 1 Nacatl. I have no 2-drop for turn 2, but GSZ another Nacatl for steady pressure.
Play B: Same first two turns, but I hold bag the GSZ so I can get something scary like Knight or Terravore later on.
Obviously matchups, lands, hand, and opponent's board have a lot to do with this decision. But generally speaking, which has more often been correct in your experience?
On Big Zoo playstyle:
Based on the discussion around Path/removal, it's clear to me that there are some different approaches when playing Big Zoo (i.e. Hierarch, GSZ, Wasteland + Zoo Cards). One seems to be more prevalent: play the list like you would small Zoo, get out to a fast start, Path their midgame blockers and burn them down before they can stabilize, but have a midgame backup plan through GSZ.
The big difference is that you only have one aggressive 1-drop creature (and it's probably the best in the format): Wild Nacatl. Hierarch is not an aggro card, neither is Lavamancer really. The small Zoo lists were good because they had assorted 1-drops, 8 1-mana burn spells that are often cast early, and could apply consistent early pressure. The tradeoff is that you increase the likelihood that you run out of gas by the mid-game, but by then your opponent is hopefully dead.
Anyway, my contention is that "Hierarch, go" is not an aggro start, and a huge reason why I play Swords over Path. True aggro decks like Merfolk (which I've been testing against a bit), will play Vial turn 1, Silvergill and Mutavault turn 2 and possibly Vial in Cursecatcher. You have to go into damage control (literally) mode at this point. Giving your opponent life is much more inconsequential than giving them another land so they can play the Coralhelm AND LoA on their next turn. You're essentially accerating a deck that's faster than you are. Same with Goblins. In these matchups, you need to stabilize, then go on the attack. Extra removal would be helpful, but I think these matchups are winnable with StP/Bolt/Jitte and big blockers. Those slots are better left devoted to tougher matchups.
Against decks like NLT and Team America, you're faster than they are and it's a resource war. This is the matchup where you want to open with Hierarch so you can sidestep their Stifle/Waste plan. Even here, I don't mind having Swords over Path, although Path would probably be better. If you can fight through their mana denial and counterspells, you should be able to simply land a creature that outclasses any of theirs and the extra removal isn't necessary.
I agree with your point, but Bant doesn't play Knight? Why not?Quote:
Originally Posted by trivial_matters
I actually don't think I've seen a Bant list that doesn't play Knight.
You should play Zenith when you can get the most advantage out of it. Most of the time this means you want to play it when you can get a Qasali Pridemage or an efficient beater out of it; personally I don't like using Zenith to find one-drops.
About the playstyle of Zoo in general. I realised that I was playing it as aggro-control more and more. You have loads of removal anyway and you even have answer to other important cardtypes through Qasali Pridemage. We have more cards that interact with our opponents than Merfolk has. Now, as I see it, the most important aspect of control these days is tempo. And this deck sure can play tempo, basically more than any other deck in the format. Recently I played a game against Dragon Stompy, which has tempo elements itself. I opened with Taiga, Noble Hierarch, go. He went Ancient Tomb, Phyrexian Revoker on Noble Hierarch. This was a nice tempo move from him. Anyway, I went Lighting Bolt on Phyrexian Revoker, Wasteland on Ancient Tomb and Wild Nacatl off of Noble Hierarch. The game was over three or four turns later. I like this playstyle a lot and this is probably one of the deck I played so far I enjoyed the most, both because of power and because of playstyle.
I usually hold on to the zenith til turn 3 and bluff removal if I have no turn 2 which is very rare. Now if turn 1 was a noble then turn 2 zenith is usually decent.
When you don't have a turn two play, how often do you have to bluff removal? You usually should have removal then. I agree on Zenith turn two after leading with Noble Hierarch. It's a pretty decent play.
I'll be playing at the SCG Open in Dallas this Sunday (I've been slowly collecting the cards for zoo, so this will be my first legacy event ever!), here's my list:
Creatures
1 Kird Ape
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Knight of The Reliquary
Spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Path to Exile
2 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Price of Progress
Lands
2 Forest
2 Plains
2 Mountain
1 Plateau
1 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
Sideboard
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Gaddock Teeg
3 Krosan Grip
2 Silence
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
A few notes:
- 6 basics but only 3 duals - I only own 3 duals. I'll try to pick up another plateau, taiga, and windswept heath at the site and use them to replace 3 of the basics
- Green Sun's Zenith - it probably seems weird to run the zeniths in small zoo, but I've basically swapped them for libraries. Given the recent success of combo decks, the zeniths seem better as a way to increase my chances of getting teeg into play without having to run a bunch of teeg's maindeck.
- Silence instead of orim's chant - I don't own chants. If I can find them for an ok price at the event site I'll swap them out, but I'm on a budget and the duals/fetchland take priority
What do you guys think? I'm mostly looking for advice on the SB since I'm unsure if the teeg/silence/REB plan is the right way to go against combo, but I'd love any comments on the list. I find myself wanting to cut the graveyard hate from the board, but I'm afraid that may just be greedy.
I take it you play Big Zoo? Or do fast Zoo lists run GSZ too nowadays?Quote:
Originally Posted by Misplayer
You have to take the matchup in account. If you play against a control or combo deck than I would definitely go for the Nacatl because aggro is the only way to win with a slow hand. If you only have one creature in hand then one Nacatl is not enough to keep on the pressure. Not to mention the situation you're in when they remove your only Nacatl.
If you have a 3 drop in hand you want to play that on turn 3. So you have to wait to turn 4 for you to play GSZ (if you have the 4 mana for that) because I can't imagine that you want to put a 2 drop in play on turn 3 instead (unless you need Gaddock Teeg or another hate card). Maybe you'd want to go for a Tarmogoyf (depending on how big it will be), but even so you lose out on 4/5 damage because of damage of the second Nacatl you didn't search for. (When Tarmogoyf does its first damage on turn 4 the 2nd Nacatl would've done 9. Tarmogoyf will never be 9 in power to compensate).***
Against aggro you could probably wait since Big Zoo plays the control role in that matchup. I take it you have at least 2 removal in hand if you don't have a 2 drop creature. Otherwise you probably should've mulliganed.
*** I also take it you don't have a Hierarch in hand because otherwise you would've either played it on turn 1 or on turn 2.
I was under the impression that most Bant decks don't play Knight of the Reliquary. Looking at some lists I now see that they do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Admiral_Arzar
I agree. This is the reason I think Swords to Plowshares is better in Big Zoo. The other is Wasteland.Quote:
Originally Posted by Misplayer
What's a good answer to Burn when playing Zoo? I'm looking for sideboard stuff.
-Lightning Helix
-Burrenton Forge-Tender
-Leyline of Sanctity
Just drawing a blank really. I've been having trouble racing them lately.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
Kitchen Finks? Rest for the Weary and Kor Firewalker seem like they would make it pretty hard for them to race you, although you probably don't want to waste any space (main or SB) on those types of cards.
Which would you suggest? There are on average 3-4 burn decks at our tournaments. They tend to go X-0. So playing them in the upper brackets is a common occurance.Quote:
Originally Posted by JVzer0
What's your list, Random? What type of Burn are we talking about? Pure Burn? Goblin Guide? Keldon Marauders?
All the lists are creature based (i.e. Goblin Guide, Grim Lavamancer, Keldon Marauders, elementals).
Here's the list:
20 Land
4 Arid Mesa
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Plateau
2 Taiga
1 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Mountain
1 Forest
1 Plains
21 Creatures
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Grim Lavamancer
1 Kird Ape
19 Spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Sylvan Library
2 Fireblast
2 Umezawa's Jitte
15 Sideboard
(Note: Dredge, Dragon Stompy and Affinity are in my meta)
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Choke
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Serenity
2 Krosan Grip
1 Kataki, War's Mage
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
No love? I'd love to get any feedback at all before I pack my list up to leave tomorrow morning.Quote:
Originally Posted by JVzer0
Play Orim's Chant against combo. It's sexy against Sneak Attack and Tendrils decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by JVzer0
EDIT: Also I'm not a fan of Bojuka Bog, even with Knight of the Reliquary. You're usually dead before you can tutor it out against Dredge.
Maybe cut 2 Crypts and a Choke for 2 Enlightened Tutor + Wheel of Sun and Moon? Against Burn you up your virtual Jitte count to 4, and not lose much against the rest of the decks you mentioned.Quote:
Originally Posted by RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
Easy:Quote:
Originally Posted by RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
Don' try to race them. Preserve your life total at all costs. Trade any creature you have for theirs, and fetch basics to dull their PoP. They can't do much about Leyline of Sanctity, and that card helps in storm match ups as well, so if you are really getting shut out by Burn, run Leylines. And play the control role.
Just a comment as an 'aside': I've heard whisperings that Terravore is good in zoo...anyone have some first-hand experience with this? I'm debating putting up to 3 in my list.
Run Kird Ape/Loam Lion, Steppe Lynx is a terrible control cardQuote:
Originally Posted by jandax
Yeah, some lists have showed up with at least a singleton Terravore. Im trying it out today, and only because zoo makes good use of GSZ. Also i am trying 1 CE selkie in SB, against blue decks. the extra draws with exalted is awesome. and is just as easy to zenith as terravore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
Im hoping to bluff some times for x=3, and surprise people with a 10/10 trample terravore or a 'draw alot-a-cards' selkie instead of the usual knight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neffy
I don't think it's that good of a play to demand a SB slot for it. What situations does Selkie seem more desirable than Knight and Terravore? Firespout from the Blue decks might make this plan less than perfect. Win-more much?
Terravore is indeed good in the Big Zoo lists, for breaking ground stalls and racing Progenitus, against which Zoo is otherwise cold.
Burning-Tree Shaman may warrant some testing as a tutor target out of the board against stuff like Lands or ThopterTop.
I think GSZ opened some doors to zoo. I don't think we cant take less than 3.
In my list (well, im testing very hard these days) run 4, and no one sylvan.
basically, i run 20 lands, 21 creatures, 19 spells. PoP md, and I switched all chain lightning to Helix, cuz its strongest in mirror.
1 mountain
1 forest
1 plains
1 canopy
2 plateau
2 savannah
3 taiga
3 windswept
3 wooded
2 mesa
1 karakas
4 qasali
4 tarmogoyf
4 wild nacatl
3 kird ape
3 grim lavamancer
2 KOTR
1 gaddock teeg
4 helix
4 bolt
3 PoP
4 path
4 GSZ
------------
1 gaddock teeg
3 ReB
2 choke
2 fallout
2 swords to plowshares
2 relic to progenitus
2 krosan grip
1 loaming shaman
.
So i run 3 zenith too, with 4 ape.
And 4 zenith, 4 ape and 2 lavamancer.
Ended up 3-1 with my posted list. Beat Elves, Affinity and Burn. Lost to Natural Horizons.
Anyway, in a fast zoo shell is 2 Knight of the Reliquary with 20 land enough to consistently to fetch out a Karakas versus Show and Tell etc. decks?
I always ran 4 KotR with 20 land (with horizon canopy as well).
Has any body who plays GSZ considered having a non graveyard depended fatty in the deck to tutor up. I def see people side in relic vs me. Not sure if they should be but it does hamper a decently large portion of the deck offence/board control. I guess the only choice really to fill that role is woolly thoctor. Prob not worth doing but was just wondering if anyone else had though about it
Great Sable Stag?Quote:
Originally Posted by ajfennewald
I use a 1 of Thrun as a tutor target and he's been really good
this was the deck i run last March 20 here in the Philippines and i got the champion. here's my list
1st Place -Louie Funelas
"Legions"
4 Wild Nactl
4 Tamagoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Grim Lavamancer
3 Kird Ape
2 Knight if the Reliquary
2 Leonin Arbiter
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Lightning Helix
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Arid Mesa
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
SB
3 Pyroblast
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Ethersworn canonist
1 relic of Progenitus
1 Unezawa's Jitte
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Price of Progress
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Pithing Needle
===========
then this are the deck that also goes to the top8
2nd Place- Redmon Lim
"Rock and Roll"
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland
3 Wasteland
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
3 Mox Diamond
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmagoyf
4 Knight of the Relinquary
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Vindicate
2 Gerrard's Verdict
2 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshares
SB
1 Boujuka Bog
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Elspeth Knight
2 Duress
2 Extirpate
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Engineered Plague
3 Diabolic Edict
3rd Place - Philip Gisbert
"Junk-Rock"
(Lost the decklist)
4th Place -Marco Deligos
"ANT"
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 underground sea
2 island
1 Swamp
4 dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
4 Brainstorm
2 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ill Gotten Gains
4 Lions eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
1 Chain of Vapor
SB
3 Chain of Vapor
4 Xantid Swarm
4 Doomsday
1 Shelldock isle
1 Emrakul Aeons of Torn
1 Dream's Grip
1 Tropical Island
5th Place -Martin Sese
"Budget Red"
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
3 Chain Lightning
2 Shard Volley
3 Magma Jet
2 Everlasting Torment
3 Price of Progress
3 Fireblast
3 Hellspark Elemental
3 Keldon Marauder
4 Goblin Guide
3 Volcanic Fallout
1 Arid Mesa
2 Scalding Tarn
16 Mountain
SB
3 Pithing Needle
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 REd Elemental Blast
2 Vexing Shusher
2 Smash to Smitereens
3 Pyrostatic Pillar
6th Place -Reginald Go
"Enchanted Kingdom"
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress Presence
4 Sterling Grove
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
3 Elephant Grass
2 Exploration
2 Mirri's Guile
2 Solitary Confinement
2 Replenish
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Moat
1 Worship
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 Words of War
1 City of Solitude
1 Karmic Justice
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 forest
3 Plains
3 Windswept Heath
3 Serra's Sanctum
1 Savannah
1 Plateau
1 arid Mesa
SB:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Aura of Silence
2 City of Solitude
1 Ground seal
1 wheel of sun and moon
1 Humility
1 elephant Grass
1 Lignify
1 Blood Moon
1 Banefire
7th Place -JM Crisostomo
"Budget Blackgets!"
4 Dark Confidant
4 Vampiric Nighthawk
2 Nantuko Shade
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Darkblast
3 Abyssal Persecutor
2 Go for the Throat
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Dark Ritual
1 Sword of Body and Mind
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Bojuka Bog
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
3 Wasteland
1 Cabal Pits
8 Swamps
SB:
2 Sadistic Sacrament
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Helm of Obedience
3 Phyrexian Crusader
4 Engineered Plague
8th Place -Luis De Leon
"Tech and Taxes"
2 plains
2 forest
4 savannah
4 windswepth heath
3 karakas
2 horizon canopy
1 dryad arbor
3 wasteland
4 noble hierarch
4 mother of runes
2 qasali pridemage
1 scryb ranger
1 stoneforge mystic
1 gaddock teeg
1 loyal retainers
1 iona, shield of emeria
3 fauna shaman
3 tarmogoyf
3 knight of the reliquary
3 mangara of corondor
4 aether vial
3 green sun's zenith
3 swords to plowshares
1 umezawa's jitte
1 sword of fire and ice
SB
1 swords to plowshares
2 path to exile
1 true believer
2 gaddock teeg
1 llawan chepalid empress
1 phyrexian revoker
1 loaming shaman
1 bujoka bog
4 natural order
1 progenitus
I've got a question,
I've never played against artifact, and I've heardit's going really fast so..
waht to do against them, is it a bad or good matchup or?
and what to sideboard in a meta liek this:
zoo, gobblins, merfolk, artifact, some control and combo
Thinking like this:
1 gaddock teeg
3 REB
1 loaming shaman
1 POP
2 choke
2 firespout (is it that fast that we need those or not?)
2 relic of prog
any other options?
edit: Is Leonin Arbiter and Phyrexian Revoker playable, you need to pay to look your fetch lol (not ereally good) and phyrexian seems quite good but idk...
Im thinking of starting to play Zoo in Legacy and I have some question.
1) How is Zoo positioned to current meta?
2) Has anyone ever thought about playing Bloodbraid Elf in Big Zoo? (Edit: Just realized that then you cant play Zenith)
3) What is the consensus here, is Big Zoo better than the reqular version of Zoo? What matchup's are better for Big Zoo and what are worse?
What does the Zoo crowd think about PFire/Grove? Do you think that, given the tutorpower the deck offers thanks to GSZ, the inclusion of PFire + Grove as some sort of inevitability in matchups where you have to assume the control role or where infinite reach comes in handy (preboard against Control, for example), is worth it?
I was wondering whether PFire was any good in this deck because my testing showed me that Horizon Canopy is quite meh - sure, you can tutor for it during lategame, but I mainly used it as a pain land. I literally never could use it to draw a card because I rarely ran out of gas - GSZ is a house.
The inclusion of PFire + Grove would essentially serve the same purpose as Horizon Canopy - provide additional gas for the lategame.
Also, as a beatstick that doesn't rely on the GY, how about Raging Ravine? It soaks up a ton of mana each turn, but it grows and is immune to FSpout, WoG and isn't impressed by Humility.
I'd say Zoo is a viable choice in the current metagame, even though it's not as popular as it used to be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vilhis
People have played Bloodbraid Elf. There's even some discussion on that in this thread. I can't comment much because I've never tried the card. For the time being, I'm not going to either, since cascading into Lightning Bolt/ Chain Lightning/ Path to Exile seems bad. And four mana is quite a stretch in traditional Zoo. I'd rather play Elspeth then. On the other hand, Green Sun's Zenith is much better in more midrange builds.
I wouldn't call either version of Zoo strictly superior. It depends on your preferences and style of playing as well as the metagame. I currently prefer Big Zoo. It's more flexible, packs more answers and stronger creatures, although it's fundamentally slower. I've found it to be much better against Counterbalance.
I'd mostly play Punishing Fire/ Grove of the Burnwillows to reliably beat tribal decks like Goblins or Merfolk. Although versus Merfolk, you're already favoured. Goblins, on the other hand, can sometimes be a pain with Big Zoo. In the end, it comes down to whether you prefer Grim Lavamancer or a two card combo not dependant on the graveyard but more mana intensive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nidd
Raging Ravine might be an interesting idea. It competes with Treetop Village as a playable manland in Zoo. Firespout and Wrath of God aren't so scary for Big Zoo though.
Right, first time poster, long time reader.
I have been following this thread for a few months and I've been slowly building my own zoo deck. My first major tournament will be in 2 weeks and i wanted to get some feedback on my current list. i have'nt put any effort into the sideboard yet.
Ps, the meta seems to be vert open. The only trend I have noticed is Bant aggro being popular and also some ANT and CBtop.
The deck,
22 Creatures
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Goblin Guide
1 Terravore
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Gaddock Teeg
17 other spells
1 Sylvan Library
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
4 Chain Lightning
3 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Fireblast
21 Lands
3 Arid Mesa
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
2 Plateau
2 Taiga
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Skarrg, the Rage Pits
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
Interesting list there. Seems good to me. Has it bothered you that Goblin Guide and Wasteland conflict a bit? I'd suggest squeezing in some Price of Progress if possible. That card is often overlooked/ underrated.
Yeah it has :P
I've been meaning to cut the Guide for something else but can't seem to find a good replacement.
PoP could be good but not sure what to cut for it, something from the "other spells" but I cant realy find anything.
Steppe Lynx could replace Goblin Guide. As for Price of Progress, I'm having trouble finding cards to take out as well. If you have space left in the sideboard, you can play it there.
Try Steppe Lynx over Goblin Guide :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Anarchy
Personally I stick with Fireblast instead of PoP. My meta has plenty of decks that run mostly basic lands. Unless your meta is littered with decks that have plenty of non-basics I'd just shove them in the board.
edit: sarnath'd