What card(s) would you play instead?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
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What card(s) would you play instead?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Past weekend I played at the Legacy Championship at Grand Prix Antwerp. Went 4-4 on a very tiring day. 8 rounds being the longest tournament I've played with this deck so far.
I played BC's main deck with -1 CT, +1 Thoughtseize.
Sideboard:
2x Cabal Therapy
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Chain of Vapor
2x Xantid Swarm
1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Grapeshot
1x Past in Flames
1x Diminishing Returns
1x Pyroclasm
1x Telemin Performance
I faced: 2x ANT, 1x TES, 1x BURG, 1x Jund, 1x Goblins, 1x Maverick, 1x UR Punishing Control.
The TP was used once in the first game against TES and I could have gone for an other line of play without it. There was a lot of High Tide in the room, but I guess I would be afraid of a main deck Cloud of Faeries. I didn't face any Show and Tell decks or Reanimator so I don't know if it would be great against those decks.
The 2 main deck Thoughtseize's were awesome, except against the BURG player. I really missed my Duresses there and with the inclusion of Thoughtseize I guess the Tempo matchup is horrible (however there are a lot of 'bad' Tempo players).
Pyroclasm is awesome. Saturday I won through a couple of hatebears because of it, and it works great against Meddling Mage surrounded with DRS, Confidants and other friends. This card saved my ass a couple of times against a lethal board position + hatebear.
Abrupt Decay was a waste of space the entire weekend. I didn't face Counterbalance or Chalice and I think those could also be answered by our discard or an Empty the Warrens line. Next to that I think Abrupt Decay only works against MUD or hatebears in magical christmas land because of Wasteland/Rishadan Port. Now, Shattering Spree or something else would be slightly better I guess.
EDIT: Also, I think with the inclusion of Thoughtseize, 2 Cabal Therapy in the 75 would be enough. However against Tempo you want 4 MD discard + 1 SB discard.
When you say you could have gone for another line of play, do you mean you had a guaranteed path to victory and used TP instead, or you used the 0-variance TP kill instead of a PiF/DR line that had a small chance of failure?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom T
I have to agree with you and Cook on Abrupt Decay. I haven't decayed a Counterbalance in quite awhile, and Decaying a hatebear usually ends up being complicated by Wasteland/Port.
TP instead of AN from 15 life. Team Nijmegen and a group of german ANT players came up with some fresh ideas which I might test.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kael
For MB or SB? Would be interrested in those ideas ... leaving for BoM in 2 DaysQuote:
Originally Posted by Tom T
Standstill SB. We think it has potential since TES can play it turn 1 easily, and playing it over a single creature might still be good enough. A lot of the BUG lists play a lot of discard and almost no countermagic. If you play it over a single creature, you can probably just draw-go forever and then just kill them with a single protection spell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
At least that's the idea. No testing has been done.
good luck guys
i'll look for top8 to see some TES players !!!
Thx for the quick response. The idea Sounds a lot like running Ignorant Bliss but is a lot better against the overall field and to fight creatures. Sadly the Card appears pretty useless on the draw (T1 drop is not guaranteed even with 4 Petal / 3 Chrome Mox) especially against Daze/Pierce/Snare and discard. It's interresting, but I doubt I have enough time to give it a spin for now :/Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahamuth
Well, if the card gets Spell Pierced, you're probably fine with that, and the idea is that most decks that run discard don't really run Daze. The card is probably still pretty bad if he does turn 1 Deathrite turn 2 some creature though, so it might only be good enough on the play, and then it's probably not worth it. I'm just not sure at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
It is probably way to slow, but what about something like Ancestral Visions? You can play it turn 1 against something running discard. You then spend the next couple of turns priming by disrupting as much as you can. Doesn't hurt from AN, since it costs 0. It's blue to be used in a pinch for Chrome Mox. I am a lot less familiar with sideboarded games, but it seems that the theme is the deck slows down a little bit when it bring out Ponder and IT to bring in more discard to hit the extra counters that come in to play a "grindier" game.
Other than on the first turn Ancestral Vision is too slow. It's a terrible topdeck. TES loses grind games against those decks because the opponent plays a clock, Liliana and/or Dark Confidant in the meantime.Quote:
Originally Posted by oSeabass
Standstill is also a terrible topdeck beyond the second turn if you didn't Silence some turns I guess.
Anyway, I'm not having a terrible time against (just) discard decks but more against Tempo decks and UBx decks lately.
EDIT: Just came by Library of Leng as an answer to discard. Any thoughts?
I have found tempo decks to be the hardest for me because I am still learning the sideboard tools in certain spots. I don't pull the trigger on Diminishing Returns as much as I feel I should be, but against decks like Delver I am hesitant to do this without a resolved Silence. Waiting for that spot, normally means I am taking a loss of a lot of life due to some creature smacking me down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom T
Against discard like BUG, I am torn between using Silence to stop one of the few counters they could have, or use it to Silence walk them on critical turns 2 and 3 (Hymn, Liliana). I am learning the value of turn 1 LED and Lotus Petal into play instead of holding them, because holding them means a resolved discard spell slows down our explosiveness later. This is something I will learn in time a little more once I lose to discard hitting LED and I kick myself for not playing it. This theory also applies to Thalia and other "+1 cost" type effects (Thorn, Thalia, etc.).
The discard decks seem a little easier as they run less counters, so playing mana out early and using Brainstorm defensively I think helps make that easier. Resolved Liliana is tough, and them having the rare counter pre board is tough. I find decks like Delver way tougher without a hand of instant speed mana ramp to pay for Daze/Spell Pierce effects.
Seems nice. I feel like it saves you when the 1 card you need is lost, but I think it could make a bad situation worse. If you are stuck with stuff on top already due to a Brainstorm and no fetch (which you tried to dig with), having two more "dead" cards on top makes it a tough situation. The deck has enough repetition of threats and cantrip/filtering, is the discard really THAT bad since it is only sorcery speed and we should be able to see it coming? I'd rather have another Therapy or Thoughtseize, Therapy naming Hymn if you think it's coming and Thoughtseize deals with it anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom T
BUG usually has more discard than counterspells so silence walking is OK. However, you could counter discard with a combination of: your own discard spells (if you still have them in your deck), Brainstorm, 2+ business spells, a lot of rituals, plenty of lands. Then you can use Silence before going off.Quote:
Originally Posted by oSeabass
Also, keep in mind that BUG usually plays Abrupt Decay so take a moment to think before you jam artifacts on the table. Keeping your Lotus Petals and Moxen in your hand is usually better except when you suspect a Hymn to Tourach and the other cards in your hand are less valuable.
Sunday I lost a match because I played a Lotus Petal in the early turns and was 1 storm short of a lethal Tendrils 4/5 turns later. I didn't notice this until Bahamuth pointed it out to me.
Library of Leng is too narrow, card disadvantage and most likely redundant. For the time being I'll play 1 (maybe 2) Orim's Chant in the board.
EDIT:
Library has a 'may' ability.Quote:
Originally Posted by oSeabass
I guess counter discard is the way to go then. I feel like I haven't yet learned the full potential of protecting a hand with Brainstorm to put needed cards on top in response to discard. I feel if I had a Ponder in hand and was "close" to going off, I would get greedy and cast Ponder with a single U open instead of saving the U for a Brainstorm response to discard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom T
Makes it a little better. I agree it is still too narrow. You bring it in just for decks like BUG and nothing else really. Having another discard spell like Therapy or TS out of the board seems more flexible, and just better 99% of the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom T
Putting cards on top doesn't really do enough.
You invest mana and a card (Library) just for getting cards ontop instead of your GY? No, it does really not enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahamuth
If you have real issues with discard/combo you may try Mystic Remora
As useless as Decay has been, I've decided it's utility (Counterbalance, Chalice, Gaddock Teeg & Thalia) is too important to cut. But I am moving it's number back down to two, meaning I currently have one open slot and possibly a second to work with if I move down to one sideboard protection slot. I'm just unsure of what to put there.
I'm toying the idea of bringing back Deathmark in place of the 3rd AD. Especially during game ones where you don't have a main deck answer to decks that abuses Thalia or dredge with main Iona, there are times that only the Wishes show up and the SB cards are not. So having this sorcery removal of a G or W creature comes in handy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Pyroclasm is another thing.
Or can even be Shattering Spree.
Iona didn't name Red or Black? Do you play against awful people a lot?Quote:
Originally Posted by paeng4983
Pyroclasm just isn't worth it, I never want it. We have Grapeshot.
Spree's uses are just too narrow.
I forgot to mention, another candidate for the open slot: Ill Gotten Gain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Personally, I won't cut the ADs for I am expecting a ton of countertop decks this coming weekend's event.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
What about goblin war strike? I've used it a couple of times post ETW with extra burning wishes.
What's going on here? Goblin War Strike? This is counterintuitive on so many Levels (early EtW =/= follow up Wish, EtW + Cabal Therapy interaction much better, etc.) that I won't count all. Deathmark? GS or Pyroclasm are plain better for that purpose.
Depending on what matchups you want to improve, there are a lot more and better options available
Peeps asked and here it is: the list for the Bazaar of Moxen 2013 Trials
4 Gemstone Mine
2 City of Brass
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Burning Wish
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Silence
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam
3 Xantid Swarm
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Telemin Performance
1 Grapeshot
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
1 Diminishing Returns
Happy storming! Try spotting guys in shiny shoes, vests, blazers, suits at the BoM ;D
You could always add the Tropical Island again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Btw, just one sideboard protection slot seems bad. You always want one as a Wish target, but you also want to board one in vs. Tempo or other counter heavy strategies. Or do you feel you would be fine siding one Swarm in against those?
In that case I'd vote for Revoke Existence or Hull Breach, depending on whether you run the sideboard Tropical or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by paeng4983
It's nice to have a catch-all like that, but on the other hand I haven't actually used that slot in years. It just sits there giving me a false sense of security.
I've done this in the recent past. Don't miss that Xantid reads "G - Flashback Cabal Therapy in your graveyard" in my buildQuote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
Edit: a pal suggested the return of Karakas...
True, but it also has a Lightning Bolt target on its head.
Not many RUG/Patriot players board those out. (To the surprise of the SCG commentators, I might add. :tongue:)
Karakas seems too narrow. I do like the fact that it also taps for mana though.
Attended to GP Antwerpen Legacy Events with following list after only playing smaller LGS-Events since GP Strassbourg:
Sorcery (24)
4x Burning Wish
2x Duress
1x Empty the Warrens
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Infernal Tutor
4x Ponder
4x Rite of Flame
1x Thoughtseize
Artifact (11)
3x Chrome Mox
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Lotus Petal
Land (12)
1x Bloodstained Mire
2x City of Brass
4x Gemstone Mine
1x Polluted Delta
1x Scalding Tarn
2x Underground Sea
1x Volcanic Island
Instant (13)
1x Ad Nauseam
4x Brainstorm
4x Dark Ritual
4x Silence
Sideboard (15)
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Cabal Therapy
1x Chain Lightning
2x Chain of Vapor
1x Diminishing Returns
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Past in Flames
1x Tendrils of Agony
3x Xantid Swarm
Dropped after going 4:3 and fading out due to not playing in such an environment for quite a time. Deck felt very well, losses were due to one misplay, some "I prepared for 90 % of the cases and the other 10 % occured" and only against non-countermagic decks. There was a lot of Painter, Elves and D&T. Blue match-ups were fine. Xantid Swarm was not boarded once, but I still saw many High Tide and some S&T players. Played against Tom T., I think we had a really great match.
I'll now say how I interpreted my results from testing a lot before and a bit after the event. Testing after the event was mostly because of not expecting so many painter decks.
- Ill-Gotten Gains improved the Elves and the D&T Match-Up. The Elves-MU was improved significantly (5-10%). In the pre-event tests the D&T-MU could not be proven to be improved significantly, however in post-event testing it could be (~5 %). There's more testing needed there. I expect the influence of IGG on Maverick and other hatebear decks to be similar to the influence on the D&T-MU. No testing here though.
- 1 Thoughtseize main did not hurt my Ad Nauseams in all the testings and in the events played at GP. Was not comfortable with having 2 Thoughtseizes main though, that configuration led to some losses. Would need more time and testing to see exactly how often you get hands with multiple lifeloss cards and how certain match-ups are affected by that.
- Telemin Performance was tested against Omni-Tell, Sneak Show, Spiral Tide and TES. Improvements in all MUs but only one significant improvement in the Spiral Tide MU (~5%).
- Tested Karakas again as I really saw tons of D&T decks. Heavily improved that MU postboard (~10%). Bad against Ethersworn Canonist though. Did no testing against maverick but I expect similar results.
- In pre-event testing I was not happy with any Cabal Therapies maindeck. The quality of those cards might vary with pilot-skill though.
- Silence-Walk plan against Painter proved miserable. These decks really have no problem putting a Thorn of Amethyst on the board on their first turn. Revoker on LED can also hurt a lot.
This led to the following conclusions for me:
- IGG is a card that definitely pulls its weight in certain Match-Ups. I did the cut one day before the event and really missed it a lot. I will re-include it.
- TP was not good enough for me to deserve a spot in the Sideboard.
- 2 spots in the sideboard should be Chain of Vapor but in really hatebear-heavy metas one could try to cut either the Chains or Abrupt Decays for Karakas. Not being able to answer Mother of Runes + Thalia led to some suboptimal Turn 2 Goblin-Line-of-plays that are easy prey for Stoneforge Mystic.
- Cutting Duress mainboard for Thoughtseize or Cabal Therapy is a viable option (and maybe the only way) to open up slots in the sideboard. The perfect configuration requires a lot of testing though and right now I'm not sure how my "new" 75 cards look like.
- For Europe players: Do SOME testing and practicing on the Painter MU. Was really surprised how many Painter-players attended GP Antwerpen.
Ultimately I want to thank Tom T again for the great match we shared. I'm still not 100 % sure how good TP is, but it certainly is funny.
SFM gives you a free target for Therapy. EtW isn' dead against the SFM package therefore
I'm going to try Telemin Performance, one thing that concerns me is that it's a sideboard slot that's somewhat narrow thats also vulnerable to Leyline of Sanctity. It could easily go back to being Tropical Island, I've also considered Surgical Extraction for Reanimator, Dredge and the Storm Mirror (There would be two copies).
I remember playing Meddling Mage in my TES sideboard a few years back to beat ANT more reliably. I'd name Tendrils and then win with Grapeshot. Also has uses vs SnT, Dredge (realistically you don't lose games that they don't Dread Return), and when you need to next level control players. Not saying it's the most obvious include, but in a deck with probe and discard, the first copy is super powerful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
IMO play 2 Meddling Mage then deck reg as 5c Aggro Combo Control.
I guess for the bom we can consider more patriot and merfolk on the field with the out come of the new nemesis
I like the idea of extraction makes our discard more efficient
If your opponent has more than one copy of a single card in hand, Therapy does the same as Duress/Thoughtseize + Surgical but saves cards & life.
Removing cards against other combo decks puts you into the control-Seat which is a losing Position in most cases. I'd rather be the faster deck in the combo-mirror and therefore running TP.
@Patriot: EtW + Cabal Therapy neuters any attempt to get Jitte/Batterskull going
Means you have cabal in your hand and he has fow daze pierce before you even think of etw + cabal
Mean he tapps out for SFM, you Therapy for FoW, have one extra mana to pay for Daze, drop EtW and flashback for skull.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaycounet
If he untaps with SFM and has a million counters already, every deck might lose against such a draw or at least negated EtW as an option
TP seems really nice in the mirror and in the Show and Tell matches. I like having the Tropical Island in board to have extra mana help for Swarm and Decay.
I don't know if I miss IGG yet. I used to run a 2/1 split on Abrupt Decay/Hull Breach. Having a game 1 Wishable removal spell in the board for decks like Painter, Tezzeretor, etc. main deck Chalice decks, seems useful. If more decks start showing up with main deck hate like this, or Painter starts really ramping back up, a main deck tutor answer seems like it could be useful to pull us out of some hate bear lock in game 1.
You're welcome! That match was one of the most awesome matches I played the entire weekend.Quote:
Originally Posted by Summerrain
- I did miss IGG in one hand: Fetch + 2 RoF + 2 Burning Wish + LED + X.
- Telemin Performance wasn't awesome enough to run it again, Reanimator is playing Young Pyromancer sometimes anyways. However I will test it against the Show and Tell decks.
- I'm testing Karakas now in addition to the Pyroclasm against Thalia/Teeg decks. Karakas is also pretty awesome in the Reanimator and Sneak&Show matchup.
- Thoughtseize was awesome against all kinds of decks, but I think I'll try Therapies instead (like Lemnear) to have a better matchup against tempo.
- There was indeed a respectable amount of Imperial Painter. The Painter decks would get beat up by Serenity I guess, which I am testing at the moment :)
Left my suit at home ... just shiny shoes, vest and blazer. Will give updates over the weekend. Feel like I catched a cold :/
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__...eeseHoward.jpg
so your team doesn't look like that ? :laugh:
good luck for BoM