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That's mostly the reason I was willing to let the topic just fade away. Because it offers no real tangible benefits over the Magical Christmas Land idea of setting up the perfect lock that only really serves to eat up better used slots. It would not have taken long for that to be worked out without any external input.
That Stasis deck looks like "Hm, how can I tick Lemnear off... OH NOW I KNOW, THIS IS BRILLIANT". Still, testing completely crazy things should be done every now and then, environments and decks change over time.
Yup, why not. And Stasis only costs 1U.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I aim to please!Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
I'm with you, but the point is that the testing of the idea was not done aka before anyone had any idea of if the tech even makes sense, there was discussion about the list and secondary card choices which is strange.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
Edit: for me that idea reads like MB Dark Confidant in TES ;D
What do you think about using Pattern of Rebirth for masive removal as golgary charm or toxic deluge?
The charm is an instant, which means they can kill your creatures as a response to you casting it (as can any spotremoval). In this case you rather just feed your creature to NO for Progenitus and laugh at the charm rather then try to Pattern your creature.Quote:
Originally Posted by carlitines
The Deluge is a sorcery, so you don't have that problem there. But again - the decks playing that card will have spotremoval. If you want to keep something after a sweeper, go for the Packmaster.
Also, it doesn't help us one bit against Terminus where the Packmaster does.
Yeah NO and Packmaster are just way better. Besides, casting Pattern is expensive. For it to be really good you want a Carrion Feeder or Nantuko Husk or the like on the board, and at that point we're playing a different deck entirely, one that looks a lot more like Junk or Nic Fit than Elves. (Which in the current meta may not be a bad thing at all)Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
I do still have a casual deck running StP, Cabal Therapy, Pernicious Deed, and Summoner's Egg with Fierce Empaths instead of Pattern. It also makes Diabolic Intent pretty good. And Bloodthrone Vampire makes Symbiotic Wurm incredibly funny from time to time. But that deck hasn't got anything to do with this :laugh:. Would be funny as hell to take it to a local Legacy tournament some time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
Still relevant:
http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/f...ol_Things.html
In regards to Elves, this one should be in the OP's section of Archetype-relevant articlesQuote:
Originally Posted by danyul
I lol'dQuote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Dedicating 2 SB slots to Miracles ( Besides Null Rod/ Pithing needle which are already there)
Torn between:
2x WRP
2x Xenagos
2x Choke
2x Bitterblossom.
Rest of SB is 3x Thoughtsieze 3x Cabal Therapy, 3x Abrupt Decay, NO, PRO, Needle, Null Rod.
Was experimenting with Swan Song lately, in Storm or Sneak metas, I have like it a lot
2 WRP is too much IMO. I like Blossom myself, it's a reallys weet card. Cheap, provides constant pressure.
WRP is not something you sideboard as it's impact is too little. It's just an overall good card that helps a lot in the grindy matchups. To me, Miracle is not a grindy matchup but one that is decided by strategic superiority. WRP doesn't help much with that, but Bitterblossom and Pithing Needle do.
Blossom makes their EEs really awkward which is ace. Do they wrath your tokens, your 1-drops or the Blossom. Basically every choice is painful. Killing Blossom does nothing to your board presence, while nuking dudes just leaves Blossom to make new ones and supercharge any Cradle you have on board. It's so nice to be able to cast big Zeniths basically on the back of Bitterblossom.
Because of the above Iif you run Blossom you should probably run Needle instead of Null Rod, IMO. Null Rod is good because it shuts down both Top AND EE for your dudes, but Blossom already does work in that department and Needle is useful in other hard matchups like Show and Tell, and can attack Jace Brainstorms => Terminus back into deck type lines.
Today's a sad day.
I finally made my choice of deck for GP New Jersey, and unfortunately, after long debate and some roughing, Elves didn't make the cut.
Testing begins tomorrow.
I still love you German Elves.
What was your reasoning for going against Elves?
Referring to the one in November? I'm still thinking over my options, with Elves at the top though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayradis
It was a hard choice. But I think I made the right one
It's a long way till November.. A lot can change (well 1 new set anyway) :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Kayradis
What do we do against decks like lands or pox? I pretty much board out the glimpse plan and try to go all out with Progenitus.
Vs. Pox: When you're on the play, try to Glimpse on T2 and dump out guys. Smallpox and other Edict effects are not very effective when you have a bunch of redundant bodies. On the draw, I would try to avoid one-landers due to the high likelihood of losing it to a Smallpox. If Pox is big is your area, you might try Compost. You could try Worldspine Wurm or Hornet Queen, or even Sigarda, as a Natural Order target post-board. It's been a long time since I've run Progenitus, but I don't like him here. Edict effects are the most common form of removal in Pox, so Progenitus has no special protection in the matchup. Since I don't have any targets that are great against Pox, I probably would side out Natural Orders and just try to swarm. Pox is typically a very slow deck, and you can swing past Bloodghast because he can't block. I would bring in Abrupt Decay to hit Ensnaring Bridge, although your guys are often small enough to get in for a few points, and Deathrite Shaman doesn't care about the Bridge. If the Pox deck runs Perish and other sweepers, then I would leave Natural Order in and just try to go for a fast kill, under the assumption that the long game would be unfavorable.Quote:
Originally Posted by AznSeal
Lands is an easier matchup than Pox. Get Deathrite Shaman and/or Scavenging Ooze online. Board in supplementary graveyard hate if you have any. The biggest threat out of Lands is Marit Lage, so you'll want to be the aggressor and race. It's still a two-card combo that Lands has to assemble, so you usually have a few turns. If you're facing a more combo-centric Lands deck, you will have less time, so you might run a Karakas if you are running Crop Rotation. Lands has no way to stop a Glimpse chain in Game 1, so either a quick Glimpse or a quick Natural Order can get you there. Don't forget Tabernacle triggers. This deck is well-insulated from Tabernacle, but people are really bad about remembering that trigger.
Could you elaborate on exactly what you mean by that? My understanding at the moment is rather simple; my understanding is that in the miracles match-up I want a high density of high impact cards to minimise the time miracles has to stabilise the game in their favour because we are particularly vulnerable to their large number of sweepers. I also want a variety of cards with minimal set up cost, so I can time my threats and disruption appropriately. I'm not sure how to describe it in terms of "strategic superiority".Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
The way I see it is pretty similar to something that's included in the very first posting. Make them misplay. Make them think your semi-relevant cards are the cards you want to resolve.Quote:
Originally Posted by starfox444
If the spend their ressources on your Best-Friends-Team while your real plan is Progenitus (for example when they don't have an active Top and are probably not likely to Terminus you out) or vice-versa that can help you a lot.
While discard isn't particularly good against them on it own, you will have more information about your own gameplan at all times, while I don't really get to know what your gameplan in that particular game will be.
While sweepers are a real threat and spotremoval is annoying we have a lot of gameplans against miracles imo. Especially if you're running Ruric Thar (be it main or SB) zerging them down to 6 (or 8 with a DRS etc.) can be a real gameplan. Good luck Terminusing away my NO target when you're at 6 and it's Ruric Thar :P
Value Glimpse is also very strong since you can (obviously) recover easier from a 4for1 sweeper when three of your four dudes drew you a card.
That being said, thats just my own input, I'm nowhere near as experienced as most of the posters here, just doing a lot of theorycrafting and watching vids etc.^^
EDIT: Being new to the forums I have no idea of the general structere of mtgthesource, but how come that Elves is not in the Decks to Beat forums? I'm not that sure Elves is absolute Tier1, but the description of the Decks to Beat forum says that that's not even entirely needed to get included and from what I'Ve heard and seen on SCG/MTGO so far Elves would certainly qualify?
Edit2: Okay, was going through it and now I see :D it seems a bit weird to name the DTB every single month (makes the DTB Forums way too unstable imo) but I guess it does make some sense. Thoguh that makes the Forum description that the DTB forum has completely off :P
I will still bring Elves as a back up deck (and also to play the Mirror against Julian while sipping on tasty beverages!)Quote:
Originally Posted by HoneyT
Ye Olde Test Build
Maindeck:
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Llanowar Elves
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Birchlore Rangers
2 Nettle Sentinel
3 Heritage Druid
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Wren's Run Packmaster
1 Joraga Warcaller
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
4 Gaea's Cradle
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Bayou
2 Forest
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath
1 Verdant Catacombs
Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Null Rod
1 Progenitus
1 Dryad Militant
2 Bitterblossom
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
Mission: Target Miracles, Delver, Storm. Find at least some percentage against Dredge if possible. Show & Tell: Hope they don't run Leyline.
The weird cards:
Warcaller: Nettles are meh oftentimes, but the deck wants 1 drops. Joraga is a 1 drop so it doesn't mess up the engine and is easily fetchable, but can quickly turn a board into a dominant one and guards against sweepers.
Dryad: Hates on Dredge, Storm and (slightly) RUG, which seems like a good cross-section of annoying matchups. Importantly it's just faster than all our other grave hate that either needs an untap or a lot of mana, but otherwise does splendid work. Also beats for 2, so attacks both PiF and Nauseam at the same time.
4 Therapy: Value from Bitterblossom. Mm, yummy.
61 cards, 19 lands: I'm a greedy SOB.
Dryad Militant is an interesting one.
i haven't ever tested it yet but in theory it seems great to fight past in flames, ******** in general (cabal ritual) and dredge of course.
unfortunately ant will kill us anyway with an early ad nauseam or a tutor chain in the midgame.
i like the matchup alot when i play ant because there is no way elves can win this matchup consistently.
well, the best way to beat is to slow down the storm player with multiple duress-effects and then drop ruric thar.
how good/bad is our dredge matchup by the way?
please let me know when you have enough testing results with dryad militant, i don't have time to do it on my own.
I've run a number of tournaments with it in my SB and these are my findings so far:Quote:
Originally Posted by sawatarix
Dryad Millitant has been a great help in the Dredge MU's. It's definetely not an insta-win but getting it out fast at least prevents them DR'ing an Elesh Norn and stopping their Cabal Therapies is a nice bonus. It's mostly there to buy you a lot of time so you can clean up the scary stuff with your DRS's and blow up their Bridges with your own flashbacked Therapies (targeting them, naming Squire obviously).
VS. RUG it's meh - they either tap for R and Bolt it or ignore it all together.
In the Storm-MU it pretty much serves the same purpose as versus Dredge. It forces them to either find an answer for it or to go for the Ad Nauseum-plan (unless ofcourse they can just get there with a nice big tutor-chain, in that case it's still GG). So it's mostly there to buy you the 1-2 turns you need to go for the lethal Hoof or NO in your Ruric Thar - it certainly isn't an end-all. You still need more hate for this MU.
Being able to GSZ for it is really it's biggest plus, but often I'd prefer to be able to clap my hands and make a Tormod's Crypt appear instead. I do think it's worth the slot though, simply because you CAN tutor for it and your opponent will often underestimate it's effect. Be sure to notify your opponent whenever he tries to plop an instant or sorcery in his graveyard though - people tend to forget they have to exile it instead.
As for the Dredge-MU in general - Manaless Dredge should be a good MU since we're faster then it is. LED Dredge is a different beast entirely. We have our hate, they have Firestorm & Dread Return to Elesh Norn (where Manaless just DR's to Balustrade Spy and wins on the spot) and both decks still have the abilitie to go nuts. In my experience it's anyone's game. It is an incredibly fun MU though.
Maybe I'm just being picky with words, but that's not when I think of when I think of comparing macro-strategy. I would consider contrasting our combo or our beatdown plan against the miracles control plan more of a strategic comparison. I agree with the sentiment of the rest of your post, we certainly do have the means to fight them with (as we can see from various reasonable versions of sideboards and mains), but what I'm asking is a question of how to describe their efficacy in terms of strategic positioning.Quote:
Originally Posted by GerMagic
Ok guys my current elves list is
Creatures (31)
4 deathrite shaman
1 llanowar elf
3 heritage druid
1 birchlore ranger
3 nettle sentinel
4 quirion ranger
4 elvish visionary
4 wirewood symbiote
1 reclamation sage
1 wren's run packmaster
2 craterhoof behemoth
1 ruric-thar
2 dryad arbor
Spells (11)
4 green sun's zenith
4 glimpse of nature
3 natural order
Lands
4 gaea's cradle
4 windswept heath
4 misty rainforest
1 verdant catacombs
2 bayou
1 taiga
2 forest
Sb
1 natural order
1 progenitus
1 empyrial archangel
1 scavenging ooze
1 reclamation sage
1 Meekstone
3 abrupt decay
3 thoughtseize
3 cabal therapy
The list has been ok in my local group but I am planning on taking it to an scg next month and I am guessing I will see more decks than jund, burn, rug delver, ur delver fish and d 'n' t what cards would you guys suggest or add/ cut to either the main deck or board not sold on the wrp so far but have only gotten him out when I have already been ahead.. Also is this deck better in the current meta right now than esper deathblade or uwr delver as I have both of those decks also ? Thanks
Quote:
Originally Posted by itzgeist
I like your list, maybe -1 llanowar, +1 birchlord ranger (because its hability doesnt summon sickness and to pay the red mana for ruric).
In sideboard -1 Reclamation sage (you already have 1 sage in the main and 8 tutors natural&zenits, dont need more), -1 Meekstone you can't search for that and its not a win-card.
And I would add +1 Bitterblossoom (very good with cabal, bahemot and against small pox lilliana jitte etc) and +1 Pithing Needle (jitte stoneforge etc).
In general I like your deck, expecially Empyrial archangel.
Why did you choose to run the Archangel over Progenitus?
With the cuantity of monoRed we´re looking now I think it can be a good choice (Personally, I dont like ruric tar main deck, prefer 2 hoofs and 4 orders, but its only my view point :P )Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Regards!
PD: This is my actual sideboard:
3 decay
4 seize
4 cabal
1 ruric
1 prog
2 null rod
The only mono-red I ever face are Goblins and Imperial Painted Stone. Against the first, the Archangel is only a speedbump and the second doesn't even care about damaging you.
If you get to resolve a NO you might as well just go for Progenitus and close the game in 2 turns rather then durdle about with the Archangel. And including the Archangel only to use it in the Burn-MU... that's just silly.
If you guys want a NO target for the burn match-up, I think Ruric Thar is more than enough. He has cross applications against storm variants. You can also run two oozes (1 main, 1 side). Remember that gsz->reclamation sage kills Eidolon too.
Why is so important Null Rod???
You're kidding me..?
Miracles MU, amongst others... It stops half of the counter-top combo.
Also, every artifact that says "cost: do stuff" in other MU's, like equipments.
Y u no read stuff pl0x?Quote:
Originally Posted by carlitines
Seriously dude, what the fuck? Proper grammar and syntax is required on this boards, addtionally: Just read articles about Elves, read the primer, read what other people in this thread said. Just inform yourself! This is no place where you can just chim in, throw a few words around and be catered everything you need. I am sure that the Elves people are happy helping you on your way, but not in this way, I can assure you.
Greetings
Null Rod shuts off arts that hurt. Just think about what decks run SFM, Vial, Top, Grindstone, Metalworker, Mox...
It's... useful. A little at lest.
Edit:
I do understand that Rod does not stop SFM before some smart ass points that out.
See? Any artifact that says "cost: do stuff" :tongue:. Sheesh