[Deck] Merfolk

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Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition

This seems out of context. At the time you were arguing this there were probably no other good 2 drop merfolks. If they made Reejery or Sovereign with the same abilities that cost 2, I'm sure everyone would use them instead. It just makes sense, and you can leave the vial at 2 to vial in 90% of your creatures. Only thing it's bad for is EE, Deeds, Counterbalance, and Chalice.

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Yeah there where none indeed the 2 drops propossed before where (grimoire thief, rootwater thief and inkfathom infiltrator). I didn't brought that up qq or something i just wanted to point out that a good 2 curve is what the merfs creature base really needs to fill the gap.

With commander in the scene it might get the aggro clock of the merfs abit faster and like what the above posters had stated would most likely eat removals. He is a vanilla early on, mid game could block flyers or flyer over the defenses and late game could bolster your troops and a decent 4/4 body aswell.

The jellyfish doesn't seem good at all, first I don't think it untaps if you vial in response. I read it as untap when you are the target of the spell, so it suffers the same problem as kira. Second as stated, you attack once and he's tapped again. Some said its good vs zoo?? Really?? Zoo doesn't win by burning you out, they kill all your creatures and swing. Yea sure they target you sometimes to finish you off, but most of their burn is for creatures and they kill you with their bigger better creatures. Like they would target you with the jellyfish out......

I haven't tested the commander but I will say this, he doesn't seem that good. Someone mentioned taking him out for Lords in the mirror???? Seriously, the person with the most lords wins and I don't think him flying is really that great esp in the mirror. Awesome though it beats moat haha. Merfolk has/can have 5 turn clock and that doesn't involve wasting mana trying to make a 3/3 flier+. Def not while losing lords. More lords and wakethrasher are way better in the mirror, including after the firespout some one mentioned. Wakethrasher is a pretty good top deck vs counter/top because he can easily be a 5 or 6 depending how late in the game it is. Commander is to slow, might be awesome in standard/extended Merfolk. I would much rather play lords. If a 3/3 flier is really that great, why isn't anyone running Serendib Efreet?? He owns moat also and doesn't need a lord to be out of bolt range.......:laugh:


Avier are asking how to play magic? Merfolk beats goblins like it does every other deck with tempo, counters and fish lords. I def think the white splash is even or better vs goblins and with sb action it is very winnable. Being on the play and vial are very important, you want to counter/remove their important goblins. I think you are mistaking out jitte, you can be losing the race and get jitte equipped and wipe the board. Jitte gives Merfolk removal which is what it really lacks, esp vs goblins when they can recover quickly then swarm again.

I put off merfolk forever, just thinking it was some shitty deck, but by god, I proxied it up yesterday, and the goddamn thing is a house. I went something like 12-3 vs Countertop Probant, and the ANT matchup is probably favorable post board (4 spell pierces get there)

ANyways, the deck is 10x better than it looks on paper

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Originally Posted by honestabe

I put off merfolk forever, just thinking it was some shitty deck, but by god, I proxied it up yesterday, and the goddamn thing is a house. I went something like 12-3 vs Countertop Probant, and the ANT matchup is probably favorable post board (4 spell pierces get there)

ANyways, the deck is 10x better than it looks on paper

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Its why Merfolks is under DTB.

Going back to post-ROE Merfolks, Finn suggested that Coralhelm actually deserves testing. Has anyone proxy-tested him yet or are we just all assuming that he sucks?

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Originally Posted by SlopeeJ

I haven't tested the commander but I will say this, he doesn't seem that good. Someone mentioned taking him out for Lords in the mirror???? Seriously, the person with the most lords wins and I don't think him flying is really that great esp in the mirror. Awesome though it beats moat haha. Merfolk has/can have 5 turn clock and that doesn't involve wasting mana trying to make a 3/3 flier+. Def not while losing lords. More lords and wakethrasher are way better in the mirror, including after the firespout some one mentioned. Wakethrasher is a pretty good top deck vs counter/top because he can easily be a 5 or 6 depending how late in the game it is. Commander is to slow, might be awesome in standard/extended Merfolk. I would much rather play lords. If a 3/3 flier is really that great, why isn't anyone running Serendib Efreet?? He owns moat also and doesn't need a lord to be out of bolt range.......:laugh:

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This is such flawed logic I can hardly follow you. You are ignoring half the card. Level up is a severly overlooked mechanic right now, that is exactly what happens when something new comes out. Commander is not a 3/3 flier for 4, it is a 2/2 for 2 and a 3/3 flier for 4 and a 4/4 flying lord for 6. He fits in everywhere on the curve perfectly. You are overlooking the fact that the card is not just a 3/3 flier, nobody is suggesting that a 3/3 flier for 4 is exactly what the deck is missing, Commander is much more than that... So, test first. I have a feeling it could be a house. I just proxied some up today, list to come soon.

yea a 2/2 for 2 is even worse and I am not ignoring anything. I can read the card fine, you have to invest more mana to make this creature any good at all and at sorcery speed. People are saying he is better then wakethrasher in the mirror, that is almost laughable. Wakethrasher with 3 lands in play is a 5/5 by himself which rarely happens . A 2/2 for 2 isn't that good, a 3/3 for 2uu flat out sucks and a 4/4 flying lord for 4uu is even worse. Not to mention this all sorcery speed so you will be wasting your turn instead of playing lords and attacking. Like I said Merfolk can have a 5 turn clock and tapping mana to make this creature good is horrible when you are playing more fish and swinging with Merfolk.

Flying sucks when all your creatures have Islandwalk and how relevant is a 2 of flying even going to be. You can beat moat with your commander, awesome. I'll just bounce it and swing with my whole team of lords.

There is no logic to follow read the card, level up seems awesome in standard....... Merfolk is a tempo deck and wasting your turn trying to make your creature good, isn't the right play. The curve at 3 is fine

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Originally Posted by SlopeeJ

Avier are asking how to play magic? Merfolk beats goblins like it does every other deck with tempo, counters and fish lords. I def think the white splash is even or better vs goblins and with sb action it is very winnable. Being on the play and vial are very important, you want to counter/remove their important goblins. I think you are mistaking out jitte, you can be losing the race and get jitte equipped and wipe the board. Jitte gives Merfolk removal which is what it really lacks, esp vs goblins when they can recover quickly then swarm again.

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Have you ever played against Goblins? Please explain to me how its a favorable match up. If everyone in the forums seems to think it is I'm obviously not very good at this game. Your point relating to the white splash is irrelevant. I was talking about Jitte, of course if you add swords you get more removal. And as I mentioned, yes, if Jitte is active thats obviously a good situation. But your talking about it like you have it every game. Its two cards in a deck that doesn't have a reliable card draw engine, especially against Goblins! I don't understand how people are arguing that Goblins is even close to favorable.

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Originally Posted by (nameless one)

Its why Merfolks is under DTB.

Going back to post-ROE Merfolks, Finn suggested that Coralhelm actually deserves testing. Has anyone proxy-tested him yet or are we just all assuming that he sucks?

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i proxied him up vs zoo and hes a house late game. I used my list on the previous page and some list I from GP Madrid.

I can't remember any specifics from it, but he is miles better then wakethresher

Its kind if one of those things that are hard to describe until you play it and test it out.

Hmm...Coralhelm is the final nail in my "1 of 2 Jitte in Side-Deck" coffin I believe. Well, that and Lawan's unimpressiveness last tournament...

I can explain it. You Vial him in and tap 4 mana to have a lord they can't Bolt and can't block. Now Zoo has a must-kill-now guy where before they did not.

Hey Finn,

Would you like to share us the current list that you are testing?

Also, does anyone know if MWS has ROE updates?

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Originally Posted by SlopeeJ

yea a 2/2 for 2 is even worse and I am not ignoring anything. I can read the card fine, you have to invest more mana to make this creature any good at all and at sorcery speed. [...]

There is no logic to follow read the card, level up seems awesome in standard....... Merfolk is a tempo deck and wasting your turn trying to make your creature good, isn't the right play. The curve at 3 is fine

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Here's a perfect example where having a little knowledge hurts much more than having no knowledge at all. Explain to me why Level up being a Sorcery has ANY relevance to this deck. Almost every deck has dropped Stifle from its list, which leaves the only Instants in the deck being FoW or Daze, both of which are free. Sure, the mana could also be spent on Mutavault, but those situations where you block with him are rare, and you can just plan ahead for that. So what if you tap some lands on your turn, you aren't casting Counterspell. Even rarer would you hold on to 2 mana for an Echoing Truth but then decide you weren't going to play it anyway.

Not only is this a big late game creature, it's a ridiculous-under-standstill creature. I might actually have to start playing merfolk as my #1 deck again. He even gives an out to Moat, or a blocker for random annoying flying creatures.

He will be played, and he will be amazing.

If anything, he helps the curve out a lot. Turn 1 Vial into turn 2, 2 drop is important. I think that's a reason for the success of adding Tarmogoyf into the deck. The same goes for having something to Vial out when your Vial is on two counters.

I just think on paper he looks bad, its just something that you have to try out with first having an indifferent opinion on him.

Once you realize hes good or bad, then decide what you want to do with him. I find its a terrible idea to have a prejudgment of cards as how they look on paper. To be honest, if you look at this deck on paper, it flat out sucks, but once its being played, it absolutely fantastic.

My biggest concern about the sorcery speed is that it makes it easier for the opponent to burn him before he can level beyond the burn range.

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Originally Posted by luckme10

My biggest concern about the sorcery speed is that it makes it easier for the opponent to burn him before he can level beyond the burn range.

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Can't you retain priority after you play him? I'm having kind of a retarded day, can someone explain this to me?

Yeah, you can retain priority... But they can still Bolt him once the level up ability is on the stack.

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Originally Posted by DukeDemonKn1ght

Can't you retain priority after you play him? I'm having kind of a retarded day, can someone explain this to me?

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You play him and then you get the priority.
He starts at level 0, than you try to level him (it's a sorcery speed) and can bolt in response.



I don't think this new merfolk will be really good. I've never played a version with waketrasher and I don't think that in the 12lords version I would like to remove anything for this creature. It seems really bad at first view, explosives ruins your day even more. You have a vanilla creature at start, loose tempo to pump it to get it removed by opponent won't it will most likely gets removed. It seems better in certain match ups but worst in much many others. (Match up where you need tempo)

Plus, Multavault takes a lot of mana and leveling this little guy will be hard. Not to mention that you level up in sorcery, meaning that if you hold daze or Force in your hand and you know your opponent is playing daze, tapping out to level it won't be a good idea.

I actually LIKE the new Merfolk. It's something which could push the deck more into the aggro direction, something which I'm looking for.

12 Island
4 Mutavault
4 Wasteland

4 Cursecatcher
4 SIlvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Coralheim Commander
4 Meerow Reejerey
4 Merfolk Sovereign

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Standstill
4 Aether Vial

Just pure fishy smashage.

I'll be trying Coralhelm Commander in my list in place of Silvergill Adept. I like the natural resistance to Engineered Explosives, so I'd like to maintain the current curve, but I always thought Silvergill Adept was a weak link.

4 Cursecatcher
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Coralhelm Commander
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Merfolk Sovereign
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Echoing Truth
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Aether Vial
12 Island
4 Mutavault
4 Wasteland

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Originally Posted by chysn

I'll be trying Coralhelm Commander in my list in place of Silvergill Adept. I like the natural resistance to Engineered Explosives, so I'd like to maintain the current curve, but I always thought Silvergill Adept was a weak link.

4 Cursecatcher
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Coralhelm Commander
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Merfolk Sovereign
4 Standstill
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Echoing Truth
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Aether Vial
12 Island
4 Mutavault
4 Wasteland

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Cutting Adept is a REALLY bad idea.
He is probally the best merfolk, or close second to Lord of atlantis. It creates good card advantage and you really need it. if you want to run commander, either cut on the flex slot (jitte echoing truth) or sovereign.

well i guess you could go back to the debate on wether or not play with cold-eyes selkie for card advantage then

I've never understood this idea that Silvergill Adept is bad. I've tested the mono-blue version of this deck a shit-ton (although less so recently), and I can probably count on two hands the number of times I've actually had to spend :4::u: to play him, which seems to be the most common complaint. I very seldom find myself without either a Vial on :2: or a Merfolk to reveal, and I tend to play about 22 Merfolk in the deck, which is basically the standard number. His drawback can be a little annoying, but it hardly ever forces you to give away information that is actually going to turn the game in your opponent's favor (I don't think I've been screwed over by the reveal in this way ever), and if you plan ahead just a tiny bit, you should find it pretty easy to have a fish to reveal when you need one.

Bottom line: He's a Merfolk, he's aggressively costed, and he cantrips for fuck's sake. How is this bad?

I'm not defending cutting Adept, but... While it might not be necessarily bad, it won't harm you to test to see if something's better, right?

I'm all in favor of testing Coralhelm Commander. At first blush though, what I would do is keep what I consider the core of the creature package (4x each of Cursecatcher, Silvergill Adept, Lord of Atlantis, and Merrow Reejerey), and do something like a 3-3 or 2-2 split with Coralhelm Commander and Merfolk Sovereign, or something along those lines.

I think he's a good card, but he's too mana-intensive to make me want to play him as a four-of. I think 2-3 copies will be enough, because he's better in the mid-to-late-game anyways.

However, all this being said, what I would like to see printed the most to help this deck is another dope Merfolk for :u:, and it makes me sad that they still haven't given us any one-drops better than Tidal Warrior as something to run alongside Cursecatcher, even after all these years since Stronghold was printed. Lol.

he is definitely worth mentioning at least b/c a resolved moat does mean game over unless you have flyers/echoing truth

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Originally Posted by chysn

so I'd like to maintain the current curve, but I always thought Silvergill Adept was a weak link.

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I thought that was one of the best cards in the deck.

If i was to run a mono u merf list i would somehow run something like this.

Lands [20]
13 island
3 wasteland
4 mutavault

Creatures [21]
4 cursecatcher
4 silvergil adept
4 lord of atlantis
3 coralhelm commander
4 merrow reejerey
2 merfolk sovereign

Utilities [19]
4 aether vial
4 standstill
4 force of will
3 daze
1 spellsnare
3 psionic blast / stifle

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Originally Posted by Bahamut056

well i guess you could go back to the debate on wether or not play with cold-eyes selkie for card advantage then

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I have always found cold eyes is something that improves favorable match ups and weakens poorer match ups

I dont believe that we can run both Jitte and Coralhelm mainboard. Both are sorcery speed mana sinks, IMO its one or the other.

edit: If coral starts to become main stream- sideboarding threads of disloyalty is almost a must

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Originally Posted by Xaul Zan

I thought that [Silvergill Adept] was one of the best cards in the deck.

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At this point, I'm not going to strongly advocate for Coralhelm Commander in the Adept's place, but I don't see Silvergill Adept as particularly sacred.

I appreciate that she draws a card, and I might find that I really miss that. But here's my thought process: in games where I get the nuts draw with a great creature and permission balance, a two-power creature is as good as another. But in games where cards are traded and my opponent stabilizes, I'd rather have Coralhelm Commanders off the top.

Silvergill Adept needs the card draw because she can't do much alone. If you draw a lord with her, you have to commit that lord to the board. The Commander's level up cost is aggressive, so you can more easily hold back against mass removal. And he could make Standstill better by increasing the number of board positions that make it playable (for example, with a Kird Ape on the other side). And then there's Engineered Plague, which makes Adept utterly pointless. Card advantage is more than "draw a card."

I might be totally wrong about all this stuff, but it's certainly not going to do me any harm to try it.

I posted the following section on MTGSalvation. Hopefully it will make it past the "which bad island maker to play" discussion they are having. People are talking about Commander. I've been comparing him to Sovereign. I choose this because he seems the weakest card of the bunch.

+The casting cost at 2 is much better then the casting cost at 3.
-The casting cost at 2 also opens it to spell snare.
+The casting cost at two means its easier to slip under standstill then the sovereign.
+He comes down faster then Sovereign.
+On his own, he plays better under Standstill.
+He plays better with others, under Standstill.

//A quick aside, Jitte is not the card for the deck, but, if you want to keep Jitte this point is less relevant.
+He gives us something to do with our mana when we have nothing else to do.

+Better post wrath top deck then Sovereign.
+Better then Sovereign against Moat.
-You can sink 4 mana into him and he gets Pathed/Swords.
-You can sink mana into him and he gets bolted.

+Flying, for most purposes, is unblockable.
//Tombstalker, Spellstutter Sprite, Vendellion Clique, Sower of Temptation, Trygon Predator, Eternal Dragon (?) are all played, or semiplayed creatures with flying. Notice that against the more commonly played creatures with flying most are running Islands.

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Originally Posted by Avier

+Better post wrath top deck then Sovereign.
+Better then Sovereign against Moat.
-You can sink 4 mana into him and he gets Pathed/Swords.
-You can sink mana into him and he gets bolted.

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This is why lists are bad. Which of these is more common/relevant in the current metagame? I hope that you're not implying that they're equal. Also consider that all decks with Moat are either running Swords or cards like Elephant Grass.

You're also missing a lot of pros and cons that should be mentioned.

Sovereign is a good card early, particularly this matters vs. Combo. Basically he comes in with some of his power on Haste because he pumps.
Sovereign can be vialed in at 3, which is more efficient than vialing something in at 2 (assuming you have a second two drop, it's much more efficient and gives you flexibility instead of forcing you to use the Vial at upkeep).
Sovereign can be vialed in and used to save your Merfolks from Burn or as a combat trick, but this guy can never effect combat off of Vial (except as blocking like a bear).

An important pro is that he can get to 4 toughness on his own.


It's also worth noting that he synergizes very poorly with Jitte and very well with Kira who, in turn, synergizes poorly with Jitte.

Kira and this guy both fly, so you can apply a flying clock, and her ability makes it hard for your opponents to take advantage of you investing all of your resources into a single point that's vulnerable to removal.

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Originally Posted by Forbiddian

You're also missing a lot of pros and cons that should be mentioned.

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I never expected this to be a extensive list. I failed to copy and paste the part mentioning how more insights would be helpful.

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Originally Posted by Forbiddian

Sovereign is a good card early, particularly this matters vs. Combo. Basically he comes in with some of his power on Haste because he pumps.

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Neither are great against combo. The hastey pump is relevant however.

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Originally Posted by Forbiddian

Sovereign can be vialed in at 3, which is more efficient than vialing something in at 2 (assuming you have a second two drop, it's much more efficient and gives you flexibility instead of forcing you to use the Vial at upkeep).

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The thing is, we never want Vial at three. Yea, you save mana by having it at three, but we have far more cards at the two drop slot. This gives us another card at that slot.

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Originally Posted by Forbiddian

Sovereign can be vialed in and used to save your Merfolks from Burn or as a combat trick, but this guy can never effect combat off of Vial (except as blocking like a bear).

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Excellent point. I think this might be the most important.

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Originally Posted by Forbiddian

An important pro is that he can get to 4 toughness on his own.

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This is another good point. Also of note is at three power he cannot be hit by Lavamancer which was relevant during testing today.

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Originally Posted by Forbiddian

It's also worth noting that he synergizes very poorly with Jitte and very well with Kira who, in turn, synergizes poorly with Jitte.

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As I noted above, if your playing Jitte then theres some tension. However, I have stated previously that I think Jitte is not the correct call, and that Kira is.

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Originally Posted by Forbiddian

Kira and this guy both fly, so you can apply a flying clock, and her ability makes it hard for your opponents to take advantage of you investing all of your resources into a single point that's vulnerable to removal.

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Again, we can agree that flying is good. The commander and Kira seem to be a good package.

coralhelm should not be compared to sovereigns, it should be compared to Wake Thresher. I'm to lazy to make a list right now because i have some beer to take care of, but its way better.

Here's what you need to realize about Coralhelm.

One Coralhelm is better than one Merfolk Sovereign.

One Coralhelm is worse than one of every other Merfolk in your deck.

Two Coralhelms is worse than two of any other pair of Merfolk in your deck.

Therefore, if you were running the standard 20 Merfolk before, you should now be running 2-3 Sovereign and 1-2 Coralhelm. You do -not- want to be running 3-4 of this guy. You can't support having two down at once. And it's also worth noting that this guy, unlike all the others, can't do stupid pet tricks with Aether Vial.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

One Coralhelm is worse than one of every other Merfolk in your deck.

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In testing, if I only have one merfolk out, I want it to be him.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

Two Coralhelms is worse than two of any other pair of Merfolk in your deck.

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This is true. However, I keep finding myself wanting to have at least one of them.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

it's also worth noting that this guy, unlike all the others, can't do stupid pet tricks with Aether Vial.

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In testing, this hasn't mattered too much. The scenario is that you have two lords out to make them all 3/3's and they attempt to bolt. You can vial in a guy and keep them alive. True, thats very good. But if you had two lords in play and a third in hand, you were going to win anyways.

One thing to note in my testing is that is obvious if you think about it. Hes not playing well with Daze. There are times where hes almost there and then doesnt get there because you returned an island. Just something to keep in mind.

That and that this whole discussion is probably irrelevant because splashing green + Goyf is about 10 times better.

I was thinking something like what Tacosnape says. He is definitely not a 4-of.

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Originally Posted by Avier

In testing, if I only have one merfolk out, I want it to be him.


This is true. However, I keep finding myself wanting to have at least one of them.


In testing, this hasn't mattered too much. The scenario is that you have two lords out to make them all 3/3's and they attempt to bolt. You can vial in a guy and keep them alive. True, thats very good. But if you had two lords in play and a third in hand, you were going to win anyways.

One thing to note in my testing is that is obvious if you think about it. Hes not playing well with Daze. There are times where hes almost there and then doesnt get there because you returned an island. Just something to keep in mind.

That and that this whole discussion is probably irrelevant because splashing green + Goyf is about 10 times better.

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3 lords != win. I don't know where you got that formula.

Here is my current list:

Land
13 Island
3 Mutavault
4 Wasteland

Creature
4 Cursecatcher
4 Lord of Atlantis
2 Merfolk Sovereign
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Silvergill Adept
2 Coralhelm Commander

Instant
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Rushing River
3 Stifle

Artifact
4 Aether Vial

Enchantment
4 Standstill

Sideboard
3 Submerge
3 Spell Pierce
2 Threads of Disloyalty
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
2 Back to Basics


Coralhelm needs UU, Sovereign 1UU, Lord UU and Threads 1UU, so in my opinion I need 13 Island, my question is:
Should I play 3 Mutavault and 4 Wastelands or 4 Mutavault and 3 Wasteland?

Do you have any other suggestions?

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Originally Posted by schniggaz

Here is my current list:

Land
13 Island
3 Mutavault
4 Wasteland

Creature
4 Cursecatcher
4 Lord of Atlantis
2 Merfolk Sovereign
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Silvergill Adept
2 Coralhelm Commander

Instant
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Rushing River
3 Stifle

Artifact
4 Aether Vial

Enchantment
4 Standstill

Sideboard
3 Submerge
3 Spell Pierce
2 Threads of Disloyalty
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
2 Back to Basics

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You could always try cutting Rushing River for the fourth Mutavault, I think it would probably be worth it actually. Stifle is definitely a meta call, and you're the only one who can say whether or not it's still good in your meta, but it can be kind of dead I've found. The sideboard seems pretty standard-fare. I'm guessing there are a lot of nonbasics in your meta, since you're using Stifle and Back to Basics.


In unrelated news, now that Reanimator is somewhat of a big deck, it seems to me like Gilded Drake might be worth reevaluating, especially in versions of the deck that run a few bounce spells somewhere in their 75. Thoughts?