[Deck] UW(x) Landstill

Personally I run 3/2/1 split too as of now. And I still want to squeeze in the 2nd Ajani, but I'm too clogged on 4cc spot already.
Played the FNM yesterday. 5 short 40 min rounds (I hate that). Went 2-1-2, losing to goblins 1-2 (screwed on 3 lands both lost games) and ended up drawing the won matches (I had complete control of the table game3, but alas, its short round and turns already).

The funny game to note, is where I played against Natural Order survival. My opponent sticked the survival for a while, casted two Orders (one of which I didn't counter) and I still managed to win xD

played in a local 14 man sunday.

m1. t.c.s.- played carefully. won by default as the model isn't finished yet.

m2 eva green. rolled with an excellent starting hand. dragged it out 45 minuted until 5 minute warning. then went to game 2 which we didnt get to play as we never resolved mulligans.

m3 fae manland tempo control. rolls me on a mull to 5 g1. g2 i have control and let a sower through vial take control of my mishra under still. my own fault. both games i get rolled by double standstill break into double force (g2 triple force.) ....must be nice hehe...

m4. mono red gobbos. g1 he rolls me. g2 i side and though i take a questionable hand i win with a ripped tundra off the top. g3 he rips kikki into ringleader into ringleader. then copies ringleader..... gg no re for me :). should have layed the disk.... cost me the game.

ill detail it more later. atleast im doing better since columbus's 1-3. overal finished 2-2 matches 3-4 games....

my list is the updated list i last posted with dragon and cow in the md again. however for such a small undeveloped meta i have determined that my landstill model shouldn't be played specificly because people bring in all types of hate and its too difficult to see where its all comming from.

i think im going to throw white splash tempo thresh at them next time so i can just clean house. its rediculous how good that deck actually is.

on another note. remember kids always print the notes for ur deck before a tourney. dont think. "well i dont need them. theres a reason they are there. take advantage of all ur hard work!"

So after it's lackluster performance I decided to cut Academy Ruins from my deck. It was in as the 24th land. My question is what I should do with the open slot?

Current contenders:
4th Mishra's Factory
2nd Humility
2nd Decree of Justice
1-of Path to Exile
1-of Vindicate

Any thoughts/advice/other possibilities?

A fetchland should be in place of that slot... That or another DoJ.

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Originally Posted by Citrus-God

A fetchland should be in place of that slot... That or another DoJ.

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I'd definitely up DOJ to 2.

Just for the laugh: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=11278

Its fun to read old card evaluations before they had a chance to really settle in the format. Like Elspeth is the weakest PW :)

Talking about Elspeth...

Here, more and more Elspeths are being runned in other decks. Of course, some landstill, but in Countertop and The Rock as well. Needless to say that that is bad for us. Elspeth is, besides combo, our biggest problem. I started looking for ways to deal with hostile Elspeths, and this is what I've came up with so far:
- Play 3 Elsepths ourself. Try it, it's fabulous. But of course, this doesn't garantee a win.
- Play a Vindicatebuild. Probable the best option.

However, I am really addicted to the versatility Cunning Wish grants us. I like Enlightened Tutoring up my Moat or Humilty against Merfolk, or my Ravenous Trap against Dredge, and of course, the MVP of many days: Pulse of the Fields. And of course, still Pathing/Returning to Dust every other stupid permanent.

So I started looking for some wishable (W, U or B Instants) answers for hostile Elspeths. I found this so far:
- Clockworking (way too slow)
- Capsize (could do the trick)
- other bounce: Echoing Truth, Wipe Away, Rushing River. The rest? Worse.
- Recoil, only succesfull when you're opponent is empty handed.
- Commandeer (knick your Elspeth for the marginal cost of two blue cards)
- Negate (meh)

I looked in some Token-makers too, to beat Elspeth to death, but Waylay was the only one that has potential, and even that is very, very weak.

Harcore damage on Elspeth isn't going to make it: Psionic Blast is the only one in our colors, and unless you've done something to -2 Elspeth already, it's really useless.

Do you have more options?

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Originally Posted by Elf_Ascetic

Do you have more options?

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Oblivion Ring. Conflicts with our EEs though.
In non black builds, I'd probably run it as a one-of, never random never dead.
In red-splashed builds, Helixes and Ajani V. can do the trick, too.
DoJ tokens also work just fine in the late game.

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@ RogueMTG:
I'd opt for the singleton Vindicate.
Cutting a land for one of the most mana hungry spells out there makes no sense.

Force of will and counterspell suddendly disappear from the format? Can't we legend other's elspeth with our elspeth anymore? Oblivion ring is a viablw option as well, without vindicate. or splashing the manabse for a 4th color (see Lampron's Ultimate walker). Talking about elspeth, I recognized its power soon so that I could take a couple of copies for little money when she come out and everybody thought sarkhan vol was the absolutely best PW of the saga :tongue: (I undervalued tarmogoyf as I first saw it, didn't want to commit the same error! :cool: )

I've also been playing her everywhere: countertop, rock, even stax (playing elspeth in less than 3 copies in armageddon stax means you want to hurt yourself hard): probably the most insane card ever printed, since shards of alara I don't ask anything to Richard Garfield Santa Klaus. Playing 3 in landstill is not mandatory, but I personaly recommend it unless you play vedalken shackles or lots of wrath of god/decree of justice, because you already have other board control elements. Way to deal with elspeth:
-counter her
-cycle a doj for 5-6 and kill her the next turn
-land another elspeth
-resolve vedalken shackles and kill her with her own soldier tokens + mishras
-vindicate her
-oring her
-capsize her (wow, someone appreciates my tech-is tech :laugh: ).

Definitely, not a card to worry about. if you are facing countertop, well they probably have only 1 preboard (so you beat them in number) and the surely will side her out for gaddock teeg, which is not that problem. And in any case, you have to worry about countering counterbalance, that's the gamebreaking card. Against the rock, they probably have 1 preboard too (garruck is just better in rock, I personally play 2 garruck 1 elspeth - beasts have more synergy with baloths than soldiers): you have to worry about confidant and witness/stronghold recursion (3 witness +1 elspeth usually means they have 4 elspeths). The MU is a little closer here. You have to really worry about elspeth in stax, if stax will be played widely again (I doubt it), and stax players recognize elspeth to be an auto-include in 3-of: it potentially comes down 2nd turn, and have lots of synergy with the rest of the deck, from smokestack to armageddon, and also keeps the board which is what she is meant to do, thus generating virtual card advantage that is what stax lack.

To sum up: opposing elspeths are not, strictly speaking, something to worry about (except if you are playing a mirror match, than ofc the first to resolve elspeth is in a bette position). Against other decks you mentioned, you must focus on other things: counterbalance and confidant/witness advantage. As for stax, passing immune through the increasing number of cc4 bombs is becoming more and more a problem.

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Originally Posted by klaus

Oblivion Ring. Conflicts with our EEs though.

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Is that so? I thought if an Oblivion Ring was played on a Planeswalker, and the Oblivion Ring gets destroyed, the Planeswalker enters the battlefield with 0 Loyalty counters, dying to a SBE? That would still mean it'll snipe your Elspeth, but that seems like a minimal conflict?

...or am I completely off now? :wink:

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Originally Posted by Skeggi

Is that so? I thought if an Oblivion Ring was played on a Planeswalker, and the Oblivion Ring gets destroyed, the Planeswalker enters the battlefield with 0 Loyalty counters, dying to a SBE? That would still mean it'll snipe your Elspeth, but that seems like a minimal conflict?

...or am I completely off now? :wink:

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Why should that be so? I think the card removed with oring enters the battlefield as a newly played card, so it "forgets" previous game informations. Planeswalker enters the battlefield with the number of loyalty counters indicated on the card, not one more nor one less.

Oh, right, I'm having a brainfart. Nevermind :smile:

@ Gustha: Of course, there are a lot of ways to deal with here. I've crushed Elspeth with an Eternal Dragon, once.. But I like having more options. I've settled on Capsize in the board once, it does some nice tricks against Iona as well.

I'm sad that there hasn't been much activity here recently, this is probably my favorite thread (and deck) on The Source.

Anyways, I'm working on getting the cards for an actual competitive build of Landstill, and I'm wondering what direction I should take it in - I'm hoping to play with it in some of Starcity's legacy tourneys next year.

While the core of the deck seems pretty much agreed upon, I see a divergence based on what cards are used for versatility.

UWb with Cunning Wish - seems like the most popular
UWb with Vindicate - one card to do most of the things Wish can
UW with Counterbalance maindeck - something like Hanni's builds, with O-Ring as pseudo-Vindicate
UWr with Ajani V, Firespout, maybe Helixes - in the direction of Ultimate Walker

I wouldn't consider any of these to be inherently better than the other, but instead having relative strengths vs. a given metagame.

Zoo, Merfolk, Dredge, and Reanimator are what concern me the most. After laying out the options, and considering the threat of fast aggro, I'm thinking that UWr might be the way to go. That, and Underground Seas are expensive.

Or am I barking up the completely wrong tree, and is this the wrong deck to play in an aggro meta?

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Originally Posted by grahf

Or am I barking up the completely wrong tree, and is this the wrong deck to play in an aggro meta?

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UWr is still underestimated imo.
It's a powerhouse in mixed meta's and currently my personal weapon of choice.
This is partially due to those SB REBs. They will definitely give you an edge against the MUs you mentioned:
Countering 1st turn discard outlets VS Dredge and Reanimator, feasting on Merfolks while being generally superb in a blue-ish meta, makes them a solid four-of in your meta'd SB.
I'd still suggest, you playtest other versions just to see what suits you best.

I'm still really tempted to try out a UWr build that plays r almost exclusively for Burning Wish. Maybe just a "cool thing," but it seems VERY powerful.

I tested burning wish landstill for about 3 months and I felt that it was really strong. I used solemn judgement, armageddon, call to the skybreaker, wrath of god and firespout as my wish targets and let me just say that going the "LD" approach with crucible, wasteland, wish for geddon, and ajani vegence was probably the most fun I'd ever had playing landstill. I felt like everytime I cast burning wish I was either winning the game or putting myself so far ahead that they weren't able to recover. Also, I ran volcanic fallout out of my board just as a fun techy way to beat merfolk and later zoo became the aggro deck to beat so I decided that more firespouts was a better idea. You also get reb/beb out of the board which handles a large portion of the format.

Wish targets I tested:
Mindspring
Call to the skybreaker
teraschi's grap
solemn judgement
pyroclasm
telemin's performance
rolling earthquake (the portal earthquake not sure if I put the correct title)
Banefire, Fireball, sorcery with buyback fireball fanning the flames?
mimeofracture
bribery (funny against progenitus + no)

The reason I don't run burning wish landstill anymore is burning wish usually takes a full turn to effect the board where as cunning wish can be cast in response to stuff or at someones eot and be set up for your turn to do what you need to do. I choose instant over sorcery but both are really solid.

Half of why I'm so curious to try it out is the curve it builds. It makes CB@2 a decent probability.

3 standstill
3 CS
4 CB (out of the board)
2-3 B. Wish

Sounds good, along with a button of one-drops... But I digress. I don't know what I think about it, exactly because of what Rockout said, it's a 2-ish turn card, which landstill doesn't need. Also, the SB would be hideous, 4 wish-board slots, 3+ REB, 4 CB, so you have... 4 other slots?

And by improving your own CB, you're making your countertop matchup worse. I've wished for CB-removal plenty of times.

Alright it took me a while but now I am a believer in elspeths power. On the other hand I love humility and WoG so its really hard for me to find space for the 4 drops. All three cards have tremendous power and I cant decide where to split. So I think for now wrath stays a 2 of and humility and elspeth can split 1/1. I would love comments for different splits considering my deck. And no I dont want more 4 c cost like FOF. I like the flow of my deck (when my spells dont get countered of course :)

1cc// 2 sensei's
4 spell snare
4 swords
4 brainstorm

2cc// 3 standstill
3 counterspell
3 e explosives (likely)

3cc// 1 crucible
2 cunning wish

4cc// 2 WoG
1 humility
1 elspeth

5cc// 4 force of will
2 decree of justice


land // 4 tundra
3 polluted
3 flooded
1 scrub
1 underground
4 islands
3 plains
4 mishras
1 wasteland


Maybe I could squeeze 1 more 4 drop. Maybe drop a DoJ?


side// 2 extirpate
2 pulse
1 tormods
1 path
1 enlightened tutor
1 aura of silence
1 echoing truth
3 engineered plague
1 cop red
1 wing shards
1 return to dust

Obviously you still don´t understand the true power of her as you ALWAYS want her. She´s just win. Always. I´d probably cut 1 Counterspell or the Crucible since it´s pretty random to get 1 CoW and 1 Wasteland going.
Just go for 1 DustBowl or cut it completlty in the favour of Academy Ruins as you will rarely play control mirrors.

won a small local event this weekend.

same basic list as before. changes as follows:
mb:
-1 crucible
-1 counterspell
+1 spell snare (fourth)
+1 path2 exile

sb:
-1 path (down to 1 in the board again)
+1 tormods (1/1 split. heavy dredge meta)
+1 e plague (not sure what i cut.)

r1. bloodghast dredge (obv led-less)
g1. force removing wish to counter a breakthrough. he goes off slow from there. top into humility wins it with an ee popping a soldier token during a draw step to destroy 3 bridges at a crucial point.

i side in 4 plague 1 tutor 1 path 1crypt 1 relic 1 pate
g2. he mulls to five. still gets a decent starting hand but lacks dredgers. sees double bloodghast die to e.p. which he chains eot into therapy on his turn. then therapies double force out of my hand. i p2e both ghasts and crush my way in a tempo strategy. barely finish him by popping disk at his eot. killing his narc. pumping a fac with elspeth and swinging for lethal.

r2. 8manland faerie/wizard.dec (with vial)
g1. dustbowl and steady control wins this match-up.... in fourty minutes on a regular basis. spell snare is golden as well. and so i ended up drawing that hand. and win. decree for four tokens and then for five wins the matchup at 3 life.

g2. were 5 minutes away from time so all i have to do is stall. i side in normal plagues path and tutor, but since its close pulse and pate. i am succesfull.

r3. eva green (maindeck x4 pate)
g1. he sinkhole and wastelands me to oblivian leaving me with a basic island and a top in play. from there he misses creature drops and i turn a 3rd pate (mishra, decree, elspeth) into a plus by ripping the next 9 land drops one by one with a standstill break and top. eventually his threats mean nothing and i set up win condition 8/8 (eternal dragon) and pummel him dead.... fuck u michael. fuck u...... (i hate that its sooo good.)

g2.
my deck performs better and i draw basic lands/ spell snares/ and stp effects. he casts choke for which i eot fetch scrub, plainscycle dragon fortundra, mainphase ee3 wipe. elspeth seals it several turns later.

r4. 4c thresh UGwr splash (very much like supreme blue)
g1. he obviously hasn't played the match-up because he sounds ill of confidence. he casts shackles. i cast still. he breaks it a few turns later with a top. i respond to top with wish for ray of distortion. counterspell his top as hes low on cards (hes mana flooded) 2-3 rounds after establishing true board control i cast elspeth + disk in the same turn. protect it and eot opp. turm 8 divinity cycle decree, elspeths final, pop disk, scoop.

side in 1 path 1 blast

g2. he plays less then stellar by casting double ee @2. i am ok as ive sided 2 standstills. i answer some stuff. snare a balance and land an elspeth. for which he has no outs. gg.

r5. mono red gobbos.
g1. he gets a smooth start on the play. vial piledrive r chieften ringleader. i freeze him with humility. solve the board situation at 4 life with elspeth mishra. slow roll win.

i side in 4 plague 1 tutor 1 blast 1 path

g2. he gets a slow hand but catches me off gaurd with blood moon. which takes him all the way as i dont see ee in time. i end up getting stuck with 3x plague in hand.....

g3. i lead with top. he plays piledriver but is stuck on 2x badland. i dustbowl them away. he gets the other 2 and ends up in an aweful board position of mountain piledriver meeter < 5 land (2 basics) and a plague. triple plague elspeth wins it outright in the end. ( he was playing the 5/3 and i had nothing else to play?

final thoughts:
- counterbalance has no place in my meta. (in landstill sideboard)
- 4 plague is oh soo good. 1 pat/ tutor is also excellent)
- used every card in my sideboard besides pate and counterbalance.
- dragon is too good in the 3rd decree slot. it stays.
- 4th snare 1 path was much stronger for me then 3 snare 3 counterspell.

The top 8 looked something like this:
1st UWb Team Awesome's Wish Still
2nd Mono Red Gobbos
3rd Buzzys 8 man-land faerie sly
4th Supreme blue
5th Bloodghast Dredge
6th ?
7th ?
8th ?

I basically agree with everything you said mossivo. Counterbalance in the side is weak, 4 spell snare is super good, and engineered plague rocks (humility main doesnt hurt either) I am going to play one dust bowl and a second humility for now and cut back to one senseis. Still, I would like to squeeze 1 more elspeth because 2 would be nice but I think 3 would be over kill. I dropped eternal d. completly not because its not a good card but because 24 lands is good and I think everyone will drop him eventually for new cards (elspeth) and because I cant find space for the monster. Landstill is hard to play but when you comback from 2 life and win it feels pretty awesome.

Exactly my thoughts. I too play 2 Humility, 2 Elspeth, 4 Snares, and 4 plagues in SB. I use Tolaria West as my 24th land, it doesn't hurt to assemble explosives/ruins lock, or get Dust bowl more consistently :)

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I basically agree with everything you said mossivo. Counterbalance in the side is weak.

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Its only weak because the decks that counterbalance sides against arn't present in my meta-game. You might not realize this because you weren't there but my meta is very much in developement and as players start fine tuning their style and skill, counterbalance might later become a neccesity. I did enough testing to know that it's simply too good not to play period, but it might be alittle too advanced right now for my current meta. The only deck i'd side it in against is eva green, but I dont even know if that holds warrent. I'll have to test against it and find out.

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4 spell snare is super good, and engineered plague rocks (humility main doesnt hurt either) I am going to play one dust bowl and a second humility for now and cut back to one senseis.

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In my testing humility is only needed as a 1 of. Top is almost a mandatory 2-3 of (I recommend 3 because its top and it's just so damn unbeatable.)

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Still, I would like to squeeze 1 more elspeth because 2 would be nice but I think 3 would be over kill.

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Two has been perfect for me. I've done incredibly well with 2. and trust me the first time you indestructable disk lock your opponents out of a game, youll see why two is the perfect number.

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I dropped eternal d. completly not because its not a good card but because 24 lands is good and I think everyone will drop him eventually for new cards (elspeth) and because I cant find space for the monster. Landstill is hard to play but when you comback from 2 life and win it feels pretty awesome.

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23 plus 3 top and e dragon is perfect for me. The only thing i'd really warn on is do not play tolaria west. I tested the card for two years. its not worth it.

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Originally Posted by mossivo1986

fuck u michael. fuck u...... (i hate that its sooo good.)

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Sweet music to my ears. You and I have been fighting over dragon since GP Chicago.

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Originally Posted by mossivo1986

used every card in my sideboard besides pate and counterbalance.

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I love when my sb is spot on.

@Massivo
r1. bloodghast dredge (obv led-less)
g1. force removing wish to counter a breakthrough. he goes off slow from there. top into humility wins it with an ee popping a soldier token during a draw step to destroy 3 bridges at a crucial point.

Is ritgh that bridge says creature nontoken?
You re my hero¡

A question:
My plan vs merfolks come from the 4 E.Plague from the sideboard and taken out some 1 standstill, 1 Elspeth(having 1 left), 1 decree, 1 cunin w.(having 2 left).
Well which are your merfolks siding plan.?
Thanks

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Originally Posted by Pelikanudo

...
Is ritgh that bridge says creature nontoken?
You re my hero¡
...

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Bridge reads as follows:

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Originally Posted by Bridge from Below

Enchantment, BBB (3)
Whenever a nontoken creature is put into your graveyard from the battlefield, if Bridge from Below is in your graveyard, put a 2/2 black Zombie creature token onto the battlefield.

When a creature is put into an opponent's graveyard from the battlefield, if Bridge from Below is in your graveyard, exile Bridge from Below.1
Illus. Greg & Tim Hildebrandt

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The non-token portion is only for the dredge player's creatures.

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Originally Posted by Pelikanudo

@Massivo
r1. bloodghast dredge (obv led-less)
g1. force removing wish to counter a breakthrough. he goes off slow from there. top into humility wins it with an ee popping a soldier token during a draw step to destroy 3 bridges at a crucial point.

Is ritgh that bridge says creature nontoken?
You re my hero¡

A question:
My plan vs merfolks come from the 4 E.Plague from the sideboard and taken out some 1 standstill, 1 Elspeth(having 1 left), 1 decree, 1 cunin w.(having 2 left).
Well which are your merfolks siding plan.?
Thanks

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directly from my player notes

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Originally Posted by mossivo1986

Merfolk

G1. Try to draw Merfolks hand out. Information is the key and although you may lose game 1, it should be about prepping for games 2 and 3. Don't waste too much time on a completely dead board. Disk+Elspeth should be your goal for this game.

Things to look out for
-Color Splash?
Mono U (Most stable most likely to face.)
U.G. (means goyf + k. grip)
U.W. (means stp + or - potential syg river guide, disenchant)
-Spell snare?
-Stifle?
-2 or 3 lords?
-Spell pierce maybe?

SB:

In
+4 ep
+1 e tutor
+1 path

out
-2 cunning wish
-3 standstill
-1 counterspell

Extra Notes
-Look for annual, and back2basics post SB. It's an uncommon strategy but not too uncommon for inexperienced pilots.
-Unlike Goblins X2 EP or EP + Humility should lock the matchup.

40-60 Inexperienced (Land-Still), 60-40 Experienced.

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hope that helps

Well, yes it helps, but do you play another draw engine apart from landstill, because althoutgh its better for them to take advantage from standstill it's stilll aour unique provider of card advantage, at least in my build,

also disk + elspeth is they key or the goal? and no humility + elspeth?

the idea is that counterspell is as useless as standstill with vial in play, however standstill is potentially much more strong. maybe the unique reason you prefere to keep them is because it can handle standstills from them, i that reason enough?

you obviously have never had an indestructible disk....

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Originally Posted by mossivo1986

you obviously have never had an indestructible disk....

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What does it mean?

and the other answer?

Yeah, indestructible disk is your goal in a deck where you run one copy of a disk, two copies of elspeth and most things are decided before you can even cast the mentioned spells, let alone assemble Elspeth's ultimate. Its certainly a 60-40 match now, because you know the secret of the disk. Thank you Captain Obvious! And Humility+EE locks Mutavaults, didn't I mention that already?

Tinefol I expected so much better from you. If you want me to walk you through the matchup with my model i'll gladly do it. Give me a call. Sent the phone number to u via pm

I've never lost a tournament game to merfolk. Just play tight... if there's one thing the deck can't handle it's a deck with a ton of removal drawing a ton of cards and that's what we do. Counter their standstills game 1 unless you have a trick up your sleeve and you should be fine. It's like any other aggro matchup but with fewer relevant creatures and more counterspells.

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Originally Posted by mossivo1986

you obviously have never had an indestructible disk....

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How is that goal even realistic?

Have YOU ever had an indestructible disk against Merfolk in tournament play?

I full-heartedly agree with Tinefol here.

I agree that Disk is no argument at all. If you have an indestructible elspeth (technically, all but Elspeth), you should have won the game already, or do so very soon. I really can't think of a situation where an indestructible disk solves problems that Elspeth cannot handle. Why on earth are we even discussing this?

Moss loves the indestructable disk. I've never had a use for it (strictly a win-more play imo), but it seems to work well for him.

I know I used disk for about a month worth of tournaments and my general thought was it was just another artifact I could recur with ee. When I was able to get both disk and elspeth in play I was so far ahead it didn't matter if I had disk because I was on the path to victory regardless. It was also very nice to go eot wish for e tutor for disk and set up a "wrath" effect when I had enough mana/life to do so. I currently run crucible where the disk slot used to be and I couldn't be happier.