All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by rlesko

Eh, I don't really agree with this. Deathrite isn't the reason BR reanimator is kept in check - as deathrite is usually summoning sick while they combo off. Surgical extraction is already like a 2-3 of in every sideboard. So what cards are you referring to that are "less narrow"? God draws from reanimator are always unbeatable, they just don't happen consistently enough to warrant a ban. As stated before - graveyard strategies were never overpowered before deathrite, and we only have gotten much better tools since hes been printed (RIP and Cage).

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I guess my problem is that i dont find leyline RIP and cage being interactive and fun way to combat GY strategies. They just says no.
I would have to play a bunch of those cards if i wanted to beat GY decks without shaman. With shaman i can get away with less poweful but broader cards and still have a chance. That leaves me with a more varied sideboard, more slots for other match ups, resulting in more 50/50 match ups that promote tight play rather than mulliganing to hate.
I think that proactive strategies will be stronger if DRS goes away.

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Originally Posted by JackaBo

I guess my problem is that i dont find leyline RIP and cage being interactive and fun way to combat GY strategies. They just says no.
I would have to play a bunch of those cards if i wanted to beat GY decks without shaman. With shaman i can get away with less poweful but broader cards and still have a chance. That leaves me with a more varied sideboard, more slots for other match ups, resulting in more 50/50 match ups that promote tight play rather than mulliganing to hate.
I think that proactive strategies will be stronger if DRS goes away.

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This is the second time you've referenced "less powerful but broader cards", can you provide an example of what you're talking about?

What deck are you playing? Blue can beat any combo with just stack interaction. Nonblue has consistent ways to find hate cards (GSZ, crop rotation, KotR). Everyone can (and already does) run surgical extraction.

GY combo won't overtake the meta. I understand your concerns about games becoming too mull dependent, I just don't see why that would be the case since wizards has printed stronger graveyard hate as of late and GY combo has not dominated historically.

I think you're issue is you are trying to make games between Reanimator or Dredge interesting and interactive. Those decks don't try to be interactive and produce a bunch of boring games anyway, so why not just drop a Leyline and we all get on with our lives

The GY argument is pretty bad for sure. DrS doesn't beat single handly any GY, or perhaps Dredge landless which can't beat the card without Phantasmagoria or Street Wraith.

DrS is good againt Delver, as the life and the mana it provides help to keep in the tempo. Being able to remove also instant/sorcery is good against any ******** deck or against Angler as well.

The reality is, people always want something to ban. They want to shake up things.

Edit : Why does TRE SHOLD is banned ?

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Originally Posted by Nestalim

DrS doesn't beat single handly any GY

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That's what we call actually interactive - decisions can matter and the hate isn't perfect. I would encourage anyone who does not think that a single DRS, by itself, changes play patterns on the side of reanimator to watch those matchups or play them. (for the record, I don't like Chancellor which enables B/R reanimator. It's definitely effective, but B/R fails to capture the real spirit of the archetype where one constantly evaluates which deck they are going to play at any given time, theirs or the opponents)

Cards like Leyline, RiP, Cage, and CP are inherently uninteractive. There's not much point debating "you can't win anymore 1-card combos" vs "your deck is linear and I can't interact." What is worth noting though, is that the more someone is required to lean on uninteractive sideboard hate, the more legacy will feel like modern (the non-game format). This is a complex issue, color diversity is great but non-blue & non-black (countermagic and discard) pretty much abandon the stack as a zone of interaction and expect to be rewarded for it with perfect hate cards to cover those shortfalls. The problem with pointing all your interaction at the battlefield (particularly when forgoing mana denial) is that you're going to get destroyed by TNN, Leo, and the whole stack of 4c 'good stuff' since they just play the kill the battlefield game better than you ever could (while still interacting on the stack).

At the end of the day, there's just not much point in balancing legacy for the creature-feature decks b/c without the threat of combo pushing out TNN/Leo, we predictably have lots of TNN/Leo. The creature-feature deck doesn't want to lose to either strategy, but it's always going to be one or the other, so we're in some eternal pointless struggle. It's not that the creature-feature strategy is inferior or invalid, just that it requires too much upkeep to provide them an unassailable place in the meta. Their strategy also leads to rather large misunderstandings of what is overpowered; we saw this with the whole ban Terminus bandwagon - it's a white card, wotc is gonna keep printing white cards (Entreat, Mentor, hell even Wrath to Exile aka Terminus 2.0 aka Settle the Wreckage)...and the only way you get people to stop hiding behind a wall of white cards in the U/Wx shell is depriving them of a win button vs combo (CB).

Perfect hate cards appear to help the non-blue fair decks who are otherwise pretty defenseless vs combo, but they predictably create the uninteractive fair game problem. It would be nice if these fair decks could have genuinely interactive, decision intensive matches vs combo, but it's mostly a pipe dream. All the problems with DRS aside, this card grants real interaction with combo - it may not always work, but it was a step in the right direction. I think the point of @JackaBo was making is that (putting the misery of playing against Czech with another fair deck) two players are more likely to have a real game of magic in a format where DRS is legal. If you're a DRS-using fair deck, it's part of your proactive game plan; being able to stay on that plan while maintaining the ability to interact [imperfectly] decreases the use of non-game cards.

The whole ban DRS stuff might sound great, but you'd be signing up for multiple bans. The first card you'd have to go after is Invigorate - if we live in that ideal world where Usea isn't deploying the 1/2 mana dork and instead we're getting an 0/1 from a green source, we just need a quick reality check: are you really throwing that 0/1 out to block Glistener Elf as a matter of course? The answer is no; so are you ok dying on the spot? Also a no - to the pitchforks we go again. (this would be happening while also getting butchered by Delver's mana denial; but sure, maybe Czech Pile loses red and goes back to something more similar to Reid Duke's Turbo-TNN BUG list)

@Megadeus makes a reasonable point about boring play patterns (a page or so back), but even he reverts to the sentiment of "eh, just Leyline 'em." Isn't this play pattern even more boring than what DRS was doing? It's still fetchlands causing the problems here; ignoring them puts us on a predictable path of banning one thing after another.

Sure just playing Leyline is boring. But playing Reanimator is boring in itself so fuck it. If your opponent is playing that mindless deck they deserve all the boredom that comes to them. I know many locals have built and played the BR deck and despite its success stopped playing it because it's just dull.

As for combo being unable to get past the blue stew decks, Leo being a hate bear for cantrips is incredibly relevant in combo match ups. I mean it's not the end all, I show and telled in omniscience the other day against opposing Leo and just used preordain as scry 2 to find emrakul and win anyway, but it's still pretty good, especially turn 2 on the play. It's simultaneously really good against the blue stew fair decks and the blue stew combo decks as well as the blue stew control decks. Basically it's just really good against brainstorm.format

I have the feeling this post wont be loved by many ;).

While reading through these pages, it seems I am the only one that actually LOVES DRS as a MTG card.

Imo, I would like to see more cards that are like DRS in terms of utility. Its a card that lets you make choices (mana fixing/ lifegain or go on the offensive) opening up more routes to play out the game. I like having choices in MtG. When your having a mirror with these types of cards it doesnt feel as predictable due to the utility of the card itself.

DRS is NOT broken in my opinion, a recurring statement I see is that it fixes rainbow colours, it gets slotted into the Blue Shell. What I seem to read between the lines is that people dont want DRS to be played in a Blue shell. I haven't seen a single post here that stated its broken because the way its used in Maverick, or Elves (whereas DRS in Elves is on friggin steroids in combination with Quirion + Bayou) Would people here be still bashing DRS if it wasn't used in a Blue shell?

DRS on itself is not a problem, it can be removed, it doesn't say ''I win'' when it lands and it can be dealt with from multiple angles. I do not get it why so many people are bashing DRS but I see near none here stating that S&T should go which IMO is totally busted due to the cards that where printed in the years following it. (Emrakul and Omniscience) I honestly friggin hate the ape play: T1 tomb petal S&T into Emrakul. Yes I know these ''god hands'' only occur x% of the time, but they DO happen, and when they do its more or less lights out without giving the (non blue) opponent a chance to recover and get himself back into the game. (Now a similar thing can be said about combo in general, but when I lose from Storm I accept it, its a deck that actually requires a certain critical mass to get there, not some 2 card combo)

This, is what I seem to be concluding the main factor why people don't like him, the blue shell is able to use it (if not better then the non blue shells.). Some state: well its T1 DRS into T2 Leovold / TNN. Is DRS the problem here? Or are it the things that get played with the help of the mana accel? Im sorry to say but IMO ''stupid cards'' like TNN and Leovold are the real problem here, not the DRS. Its the mana accel into anything CMC 3 that seems to be ticking off people. Would DRS still be hated that much if WoTC makes another stupid mistake like some Chrome mox making any colour, or a 1 CMC artifact that makes any colour?

I have to restrain myself and bite my tongue whenever I see a post coming up in thread X where some Blue lover states: Well Legacy is blue, and all non blue decks are shit to start with. (You would be suprised how many share this sentiment if you take off your pink biased glasses) Blue is the best colour in Legacy, agreed, but Blue is near always used in conjunction with another colour (Aside High Tide, which sadly isn't played enough, and Merfolk, which although a fine deck, is not a deck thats as diverse in playstyle as a blue + X colour deck.) If there is a problem with Legacy, its that the Blue shell is to present in the meta game. Card filtering / advantage? (Cantrips / Ancestrall Visions) check, flawless info what your opponent has in his hand? (Probe) check, best 1 CMC beater in field? (Delver) check, best way to stop a combo from happening (Counterspells) check, ''best creature'' of the format without cheating it into play (TNN) check. The list just goes on . .

The only thing that Blue on itself has problems with is removing something that has been resolved. Aside that, anything that players want in general can be found in that part of the colour pie.

So instead of axing DRS, ban something that dents the blue shell. (Which has us coming back to the whole Brainstorm / cantrip discussion) If they don't wanna adress the cantrips, then axe another part of the Blue shell which is used in general to make it more appealing for people to pickup another colour. Would the % of blue decks still be the same if it where reduced to what blue should be? I never got it why blue in Legacy has some of the best creatures for their CMC whereas the general ''lore'' explains that blue has below average strenght creatures which is partly compensated by Evasion.

I know that this post seems me hating on blue, and yes it partly is, I am just done with the BS of people wanting to ban DRS while the card on itself is fine (At least in my opinion)

Oh boy.

OK. I can't be arsed cutting your post up to quote you on a phone, so please forgive me for just cut and pasting your points:

Imo, I would like to see more cards that are like DRS in terms of utility. Its a card that lets you make choices
These are not exactly equal points, utility and choice, but I agree with you. A one mana Guteral Response is not going to see as much play as REB because Blast has more utility. Same here.

DRS is NOT broken in my opinion
It really is. The issue with DRS is not just that it supplies Black with a mana dork but that it's effective at any stage of the game. The issue with mana dorks like Birds is they tend to do sweet fuck all when you draw them on turn 7. So you have to balance out early game advantage for late game air. DRS does not force you to make this choice.

Would people here be still bashing DRS if it wasn't used in a Blue shell?
Yes. Modern proved that. As for why its not complained about in Maverick or Elves, out of sight, out of mind. Maverick has done nothing of relevance in years and Elves is not as popular as it once was. Put both these decks on the top tables consistently and watch the bitching commence.

DRS on itself is not a problem, it can be removed, it doesn't say ''I win'' when it lands and it can be dealt with from multiple angles.
DRS is an enabler of early aggressive starts while offering a way out of stalled board states. It in fact does say 'I win' and often does. It just doesn't do the winning on a single turn. Also 'Dies to removal' is a terrible point.

Some state: well its T1 DRS into T2 Leovold / TNN. Is DRS the problem here?
Not directly. I would argue Leo is a mistake as much as DRS is, but Leo would be much harder to play without the fixing DRS grants. That said, DRS into 'Insert development mistake here' isn't really much of a point in Legacy. The format is full of mistakes.

Im sorry to say but IMO ''stupid cards'' like TNN and Leovold are the real problem here, not the DRS.
Man they are all stupid cards, all problems and mistakes, some are just more grievous than the others. On that list, TNN is my personal bug bear. Fuck that guy.

I know that this post seems me hating on blue, and yes it partly is
Welcome to the ball, your club membership card can be picked up over by the punch bowl nedleeds is passed out under. We welcome all who are willing to join us.

OK. Getting real time:
DRS is a fuck up, it's a fuck up I dislike and it's a fuck up that's hard to point to and say 'This thing is fine'. Here's the thing, welcome to the format of fuck ups. While a card like TNN exists in the format, where it comes down and just blanks an entire game, I have little care for banning DRS. Sure, it's a mistake that enables other mistakes, but so it SnT, Sneak Attack, Lotus Petal, Grave Troll and any other amount of stupid shit that we play with. At this point all I ask for is that if we really do have to see DRS go, we scrape some of the other shit stuck to our shoes at the same time.

Still would rather lose to a DRS than a turn two Sneak Attack.

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

DRS is a fuck up, it's a fuck up I dislike and it's a fuck up that's hard to point to and say 'This thing is fine'. Here's the thing, welcome to the format of fuck ups. While a card like TNN exists in the format, where it comes down and just blanks an entire game, I have little care for banning DRS. Sure, it's a mistake that enables other mistakes, but so it SnT, Sneak Attack, Lotus Petal, Grave Troll and any other amount of stupid shit that we play with. At this point all I ask for is that if we really do have to see DRS go, we scrape some of the other shit stuck to our shoes at the same time.

Still would rather lose to a DRS than a turn two Sneak Attack.

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A format of fuck ups is fine (which is most of the appeal of legacy), the problem is when one of the gets a stranglehold on decks when surrounded by them, it's a testament to how good the card is when people in this forum (in this thread and on another) have unironically suggested Deathrite Shaman in decks that nominally have no interest in the card (combo), at some point, somethings gotta give. We've gone from a format where casting a color intensive card was brave to relatively common and unremarkable in the face of wasteland, loam and stifle, while also being nothing for said decks to splash them.

It's a card that is literally too good at being fair.

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Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds

It's a card that is literally too good at being fair.

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Since my return to Magic in 09, we have had that same argument made for two other cards, Knight and Goyf. While I will conceded that DRS is a different beast, it feels like the same old rotation of the wheel.

I could be convinced that DRS is a problem, but even then it's one that won't see action. Because Wizard's would not have taken action on Top if not for the convenience of a 'Timing issue'. They said so themselves. DRS is not anywhere close to as hated at Top was and it's rarely more than an image that they try and change in Legacy, not an actual format shift.

For the record, I do believe DRS is a problem, just not one I would ban.

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Originally Posted by rlesko

This is the second time you've referenced "less powerful but broader cards", can you provide an example of what you're talking about?

What deck are you playing? Blue can beat any combo with just stack interaction. Nonblue has consistent ways to find hate cards (GSZ, crop rotation, KotR). Everyone can (and already does) run surgical extraction.

GY combo won't overtake the meta. I understand your concerns about games becoming too mull dependent, I just don't see why that would be the case since wizards has printed stronger graveyard hate as of late and GY combo has not dominated historically.

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Ok I will be super clear: i play food chain mostly. I run 4 shamans and 4 fow md that are relevant versus Reanimator. But i also run a bunch of cards that are okay-ish in buying time such as 4 strix, 3-4 decay (kills animate dead even through chancellor), 2 Leovold (prevents gris from drawing and makes discard worse). If i get to buy time DRS can stabilize the game without taking over it (i.e looting 2 fattys then exhume plays around it). Now if i stay alive until 'half combo' they have a hard time winning since i can block forever and negate lifelink from griselbrand. My G1 i is usually bad but fow into DRS can win sometimes.
Post board i bring in 2 surgical, a scooze or relique, 2 flusterstorms and 2 thoughtseize. I have pretty good win% even if i really skimp on actual hate-cards. Surgical is broader than i e RIP since it's also a part if the plan that combo decks get only one shot at going off then I extraction the enbler.
DRS is what makes this sideboard plan possible. Without it i would have to play an additional grafdiggers cage and relique plus scooze. That would cut in to my cards for other match ups making the deck over all more either great or bad instead of 'i have a chance against most decks'

I will take another example. I have been playing a bit of top less miracle. It's a powerful deck in the way that it plays a bunch of very powerful card. But the deck suffers from being split in two halves. You run 8 cards that are stellar versus creature decks but utterly worseless against non-creature decks. Same can be said for the other half of the deck. For this reason i believe new miracle will never be top tier. People used to say that top "Held the two sides together" and portent doesnt fill that role. That's why i think check pile is the better control deck: every card is versatile and have relevant text in different match ups. The prime removal (strix) isnt completely dead versus storm - it attacks and cantrips. Not saying it's good but it's better than StP. The ca engine isnt specific cards (predict) but generated by almost every card. Kcommand, hymn and so on are all flexible cards and seldom totally dead. IMO a reactive control deck in legacy need to play these broad cards that have applications in a lot if matchups and are rarely dead. Without flexible cards i think blue based control is not a viable deck-type. DRS is such a flexible card. I think it gives more to the format than it takes. As many if you have said, it doesnt HOSE GY strategies, it merely is a way to fight them. The only strategies DRS hoses are non-deathrite tempo decks (canadian) and goblins and that's because it's a 1/2 that prevents threshold mainly.

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Originally Posted by JackaBo

Ok I will be super clear: i play food chain mostly. I run 4 shamans and 4 fow md that are relevant versus Reanimator. But i also run a bunch of cards that are okay-ish in buying time such as 4 strix, 3-4 decay (kills animate dead even through chancellor), 2 Leovold (prevents gris from drawing and makes discard worse). If i get to buy time DRS can stabilize the game without taking over it (i.e looting 2 fattys then exhume plays around it). Now if i stay alive until 'half combo' they have a hard time winning since i can block forever and negate lifelink from griselbrand. My G1 i is usually bad but fow into DRS can win sometimes.
Post board i bring in 2 surgical, a scooze or relique, 2 flusterstorms and 2 thoughtseize. I have pretty good win% even if i really skimp on actual hate-cards. Surgical is broader than i e RIP since it's also a part if the plan that combo decks get only one shot at going off then I extraction the enbler.
DRS is what makes this sideboard plan possible. Without it i would have to play an additional grafdiggers cage and relique plus scooze. That would cut in to my cards for other match ups making the deck over all more either great or bad instead of 'i have a chance against most decks'

I will take another example. I have been playing a bit of top less miracle. It's a powerful deck in the way that it plays a bunch of very powerful card. But the deck suffers from being split in two halves. You run 8 cards that are stellar versus creature decks but utterly worseless against non-creature decks. Same can be said for the other half of the deck. For this reason i believe new miracle will never be top tier. People used to say that top "Held the two sides together" and portent doesnt fill that role. That's why i think check pile is the better control deck: every card is versatile and have relevant text in different match ups. The prime removal (strix) isnt completely dead versus storm - it attacks and cantrips. Not saying it's good but it's better than StP. The ca engine isnt specific cards (predict) but generated by almost every card. Kcommand, hymn and so on are all flexible cards and seldom totally dead. IMO a reactive control deck in legacy need to play these broad cards that have applications in a lot if matchups and are rarely dead. Without flexible cards i think blue based control is not a viable deck-type. DRS is such a flexible card. I think it gives more to the format than it takes. As many if you have said, it doesnt HOSE GY strategies, it merely is a way to fight them. The only strategies DRS hoses are non-deathrite tempo decks (canadian) and goblins and that's because it's a 1/2 that prevents threshold mainly.

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So basically the solution is to play blue for counters and black for discard, right? I don't think DRS needs to be banned, but if anything enabling this ridiculous Swiss-army knife sideboard via off-color splashing is an argument that something is wrong. If you're not playing the one mana planeswalker you have to resort to worse options, period.

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Originally Posted by Watersaw

...but if anything enabling this ridiculous Swiss-army knife sideboard via off-color splashing is an argument that something is wrong. If you're not playing the one mana planeswalker you have to resort to worse options, period.

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We're talking about Food Chain here, they're only casting BUG cards. You need to look at the amount and types of basics in that stock list (I want to say it's a minimum of 4 basics) - that deck has mana reqs for UB, BUG, UU, and BG in a deck that's trying to maximize blue card selection. We should be clear on this point: Food Chain can do all it does without DRS, but they are going to be playing into Wasteland big time in his absence, to the point that executing its combo isn't going to be very realistic. For Food Chain specifically, DRS means you get to hide behind a wall of basics that provides the theoretical baseline you need to ensure for worst case scenarios to be competitive.* I guess we can take a moment to also highlight Gurmag & DRS as ways to get Mistohollows back into exile.
*competitive here being a function of casting optimal spells at optimal times despite fetching basics.

It's important to appreciate a DRS ban in terms of how much of the format would become unplayable due to a perfect storm of mana denial, turn one 0/1s being bad blockers of Glistener, and lost percentage points vs yard-centric combo. DRS the card is rife with mistakes and it plays really nicely with the cantrip cartel, and that's annoying and offensive. At the end of the day though, DRS is doing more good than harm (but yes, it's still doing harm b/c of fetchlands); this guy is a necessary evil, and it's just gonna suck that the cost we all have to pay is the existence of 4c good stuff...but the alternative is worse (in theory).

As a very minor point, if DRS was banned then Snuff Out is going to kill basically everything relevant in the format outside of a threat presented by a combo deck. Just something to think about if you want to theorycraft what post-DRS legacy looks like, and how to spot problems before they exist.

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Originally Posted by Fox

As a very minor point, if DRS was banned then Snuff Out is going to kill basically everything relevant in the format outside of a threat presented by a combo deck. Just something to think about if you want to theorycraft what post-DRS legacy looks like, and how to spot problems before they exist.

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Except for TNN. And Angler. And Batterskull token. And Strix. And Leo. And...

I'm not too concerned about the power of Snuff Out in a hypothetical post-DRS world.

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Originally Posted by Ephemeron

Except for TNN. And Angler. And Batterskull token. And Strix. And Leo. And...

I'm not too concerned about the power of Snuff Out in a hypothetical post-DRS world.

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Agreed, I would be worried about my opponent generating RR for R.

Or RRRRR for R
#rubystorm

All this talk of if DRS would be banned all of these other things would pop up as problems are the same bad argument of why fast combo will pop up if miracles got banned. The format was fine before these things, don't see why it wouldn't be after them

if only we had a free counterspell that could counter only 1cc cards! oh well. i for one welcome our new elf shaman overlords.

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Originally Posted by Zombie

If DRS's ability to convert stuff in a GY to mana belongs in any color but green, that color is black.

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I'd never thought of this, but it makes perfect sense. Black has Spoils Of Evil, Songs Of The Damned and Black Market (not to mention Organ Harvest).

Regardless, I don't think any of this colour pie talk is particularly relevant. There is zero precedent for banning cards on account of being off colour! Also this is the format with REB and Drop Of Honey.

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Originally Posted by Ephemeron

Except for TNN. And Angler. And Batterskull token. And Strix. And Leo. And...

I'm not too concerned about the power of Snuff Out in a hypothetical post-DRS world.

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These aren't early game plays where we see the same play patterns. By @Megadeus:

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I think the issue with DRS and BS decks (as in in the same deck is that the play patterns are all the same. Sure sometimes you play red instead of say white to get bolt instead of path, or you play BUG for Leovold rather than Grixis for Pyromancer, but the games don't really play out that much differently. You can say yeah the third color is different and therefore the deck is different, but the reality is that most games go the same way. T1 DRS, T2 cast a cantrip, play a threat or answer a threat. Next turn play a thing, cast a cantrip, counter your opponents spell. DRS allowing the non green blue decks to get to do multiple things on turn 2 while advancing the board is what makes the card so insane imo, and it really changed how powerful being on the play is. Turn 1 Sea DRS, daze your removal, untap waste you and play another threat and the game is essentially over at that point.

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You can definitely cast and keep Strix alive early assuming you could both meet the mana reqs and resolve it, but the rest are coming down quite a bit later (particularly vs mana denial). Unless you're dropping Goose or Veteran Explorer, you're not making a relevant turn 1 play. You get up to 2 cmc and the only creature you deploy that would need to be answered, which Snuff Out cannot, is Dark Confidant. At 3+ cmc you've broken through the early game's redundant play patterns. The reason Snuff Out isn't seeing heavy play (particularly alongside Gurmag) is that there's a very high chance that creature you needed to kill early was black (and green).

Also at higher cmcs, you begin to need a plan vs Blood Moon, which will affect a number of the cards you've listed @Ephemeron.