[Deck] Mono-Blue Control (MUC)

one of my buddies suggested spire golem and for how janky it sounds I really like it. On turn 4 you still have 2 mana and he just gets better and better as the game goes on since he soon becomes free. he blocks a lot of things as well. Clique being a big one..trygon, wild nacatal, merfolks with only one lord out. I really really like him and I am trying to git him in the list. I just do not know how to fit him in. What do you guys think?

The reason why I said cb in the sb is because the deck has a hard time vs combo. I hate CB and you prolly are right that the curve isn'r right for this deck.

I think it sounds pretty bad. what does it actually do for us? For this deck tapping down their things for a turn doesn't seem good enough imo. How do you see it working in the deck?

How do you guys usually board for the Bant matchup? I haven't played in a couple years, and I'm hopping back in soon.

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Originally Posted by C Rayz Walz

one of my buddies suggested spire golem and for how janky it sounds I really like it. On turn 4 you still have 2 mana and he just gets better and better as the game goes on since he soon becomes free. he blocks a lot of things as well. Clique being a big one..trygon, wild nacatal, merfolks with only one lord out. I really really like him and I am trying to git him in the list. I just do not know how to fit him in. What do you guys think?

The reason why I said cb in the sb is because the deck has a hard time vs combo. I hate CB and you prolly are right that the curve isn'r right for this deck.

I think it sounds pretty bad. what does it actually do for us? For this deck tapping down their things for a turn doesn't seem good enough imo. How do you see it working in the deck?

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yeah, Spire golem looks sexy in our deck, I kind of love it, but what would you put off? oO i love the list like it is now (specialy since in board in 2 jace)
if you find 2 or 3 places to put the golem, let us know :)

I took out SSsprite for them. I feel that they were overall the weakest card since they were good sometimes and bad other times and I don't really like that. What do you think should be taken out? depends on the bant version. I will prolly board in maybe sower and pierce.

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Originally Posted by C Rayz Walz

I took out SSsprite for them. I feel that they were overall the weakest card since they were good sometimes and bad other times and I don't really like that. What do you think should be taken out? depends on the bant version. I will prolly board in maybe sower and pierce.

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I'll don't like this choice, maybe because I love SSS, even if sometimes I have to cast it EOT, without any reason, just to make the next one bigger or to attack, I don't think that the golem is better than SSS, maybe I'm wrong, so I'm waiting your tests but having 20 counters MD is something I love to have.

I can see what you mean. Don't get me wrong sometimes they are great. but late game a 1/1 is just bad where a 2/4 can block a lot of stuff. and some times they are a turn to slow. It could be me and I could be wrong about cutting them. just giving what I took out for them. Any other ideas Awake? I crush junk last night going 6-1 vs it which I was really happy with (spire golem version not that it would have matter I think)

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Originally Posted by C Rayz Walz

I can see what you mean. Don't get me wrong sometimes they are great. but late game a 1/1 is just bad where a 2/4 can block a lot of stuff. and some times they are a turn to slow. It could be me and I could be wrong about cutting them. just giving what I took out for them. Any other ideas Awake? I crush junk last night going 6-1 vs it which I was really happy with (spire golem version not that it would have matter I think)

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I beated junk 2-0 last week, with the SSS version, I was pretty happy too, I can see what you mean with the SSS, i'll have to give the golem a try, but I'm not sure :)

in an effort to avoid sounding too harsh, i'll keep it short and just say that i think both spellstutter sprite and spire golem are really bad.

i don't think muc should ever run enough fairies to support spellstutter sprite (because then the deck is fairy tribal, and in my opinion very different).

i think that spire golem is a decent idea for budget lists, but in an optimized list there are tons of better options. this thread is for competitive (or as much so as we can get them in the current metagame) lists, and i feel like spire golem is an extremely weak choice.

the goal of our deck isn't to get a creature on the board fast, so spire golems affinity is sort of out of place. if you're looking for early game defense, i don't see why a wall wouldn't be a better choice in every aspect, and if you're looking for an early beater, i won't even start to list the better alternatives.

muc shouldn't be afraid of taking early damage (unless it's from a lackey or something dumb like that, in which case neither spellstutter sprite or spire golem will help you anyway) because we're playing CONTROL. you're not going to be winning each and every game with all of your life left, so it seems like a straight up bad idea to incorporate a card that is going to do nothing more than mitigate a few damage early on, and then either get stomped my a larger creature, or straight up removed later on. a deck like ours has to pretty much plan on taking damage before it can set up it's control lock and run the game according to it's own terms, so you're going to want creatures that either pack a lot of inherent hate, or are going to be immune from removal, or, both.

I disagree with you. Spire golem is actually really good has he does a lot for us. My list runs a lot more creatures then the normal because I hate running cards like powder keg and other sweepers so the best way to fill that slot is either to splash or add in more creatures which I did. In my list I am running jitte and although you may not like it, it makes golem and other weak creatures a lot better. He a lone blocks so many important things for us. Sure, I am making their stp use able but with shackles and clique I am already making their removal use able so I don't really care about that. I like the fact that he can come down turn 3, and the later he goes on the better he gets imo. Also, have your tried him? if you haven't and I am not trying to be rude then don't speak. if you have tried him and you don't like him then don't play it. I think he is really good and not a budget card at all. Just a different opinion if you have tried him. Also, saving a few damage can be all you need to win so I think that is a pretty bad statement to use.

SSS- he is fine. he a lone counters things at 1cc and the more you get the better he is. I do think sometimes he is pretty insane and other times he is pretty bad so I change it to spire and have been really happy with him.

i think that spellstutter sprite is probably a better choice than spire golem, but i think it reaches it's full potential in a deck that supports more fairies than oldschool muc can (ie: fairie tribal). in a list that runs six to eight fairies, i suppose spellstutter sprite is a decent choice, but nothing more than just that, DECENT. in most cases, i'd rather run more counters. when i playtest with the spellstutters, i always find myself wishing they were a better counterspell.

i'll agree that a list with jitte makes spire golem better, but i still think that there are better creatures that could hold a jitte, or any equipment for that matter, but i'll leave it at that. i'll admit that i've never playtested spire golems, but that's only because i think they're too bad to even consider.

as far as actual constructive criticism goes, i'd really suggest playtesting rainbow efreets over spire golems. granted, the efreet hits the board after the golem can, but once it resolves, it resolves for good. also, i think people forget that block/phashing walls literally everything that doesn't have trample. the efreet swings for more than the golden does, blocks more than the golem can, and evades more than the golem can, all in exchange for a little investment in mana (which is something that a halfway decent muc list shouldn't have to worry about anyway).

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Originally Posted by sillyandrew

i think that spellstutter sprite is probably a better choice than spire golem, but i think it reaches it's full potential in a deck that supports more fairies than oldschool muc can (ie: fairie tribal). in a list that runs six to eight fairies, i suppose spellstutter sprite is a decent choice, but nothing more than just that, DECENT. in most cases, i'd rather run more counters. when i playtest with the spellstutters, i always find myself wishing they were a better counterspell.

i'll agree that a list with jitte makes spire golem better, but i still think that there are better creatures that could hold a jitte, or any equipment for that matter, but i'll leave it at that. i'll admit that i've never playtested spire golems, but that's only because i think they're too bad to even consider.

as far as actual constructive criticism goes, i'd really suggest playtesting rainbow efreets over spire golems. granted, the efreet hits the board after the golem can, but once it resolves, it resolves for good. also, i think people forget that block/phashing walls literally everything that doesn't have trample. the efreet swings for more than the golden does, blocks more than the golem can, and evades more than the golem can, all in exchange for a little investment in mana (which is something that a halfway decent muc list shouldn't have to worry about anyway).

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I have to admit that the rainbow efreet looks "sexy" ... but I like SSS for the counterspell-like effect + creature.
BUt i have the feeling that if i put it out, it's a complete different list, cause clique looses a bit of interest (although it's still a good card), and sower ... well it's sower, it's good (but in my test I didn't like it that much I have to say, I had nothing to target when it came into play (i already had shackles or there was nothing to target at all ....).
the card i have doubts about is the morphling ... I have the feeling that it doesn't do enough because when it enters into play it's sometimes too late or sometimes it come out and just love it! I have the same feeling than C rayz has about the SSS.

I'll maybe run a the efreet as a one shoot or two of them at the place of the morphling but I'm not sure about.

the thing I'm looking for in advice about the Side, I have the feeling that my side is not that good ...
I'ml running for the moment :
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
SB: 3 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 Back to Basics
SB: 4 Propaganda
SB: 1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
and i don't know if it's good like that or not.

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Originally Posted by Awake

I have to admit that the rainbow efreet looks "sexy" ... but I like SSS for the counterspell-like effect + creature.
BUt i have the feeling that if i put it out, it's a complete different list, cause clique looses a bit of interest (although it's still a good card), and sower ... well it's sower, it's good (but in my test I didn't like it that much I have to say, I had nothing to target when it came into play (i already had shackles or there was nothing to target at all ....).
the card i have doubts about is the morphling ... I have the feeling that it doesn't do enough because when it enters into play it's sometimes too late or sometimes it come out and just love it! I have the same feeling than C rayz has about the SSS.

I'll maybe run a the efreet as a one shoot or two of them at the place of the morphling but I'm not sure about.

the thing I'm looking for in advice about the Side, I have the feeling that my side is not that good ...
I'ml running for the moment :
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 2 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
SB: 3 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 Back to Basics
SB: 4 Propaganda
SB: 1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
and i don't know if it's good like that or not.

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yes, the lists that can support spellstutter sprites are going to look very different from lists that don't, i think largely because running small creatures like that is an entirely different style of play, and requires different construction in order to work, even though both lists are technically "mono-blue control." maybe what has me a little on edge here, is that your creature heavy lists are starting to edge towards "mono-blue aggro/control," which will play very differently than a dedicated control deck.

if you have doubts about morphling, it's either because you haven't played with him, or your deck doesn't run enough mana-sources to support him. additionally, most of this thread is dedicated to morphling discussion, so just scroll back so you can read about how good he is from people other than me.

in regards to your sideboard, the card that seems most out of place is propaganda. if your siding in all of your propagandas game two against an aggro opponent, it probably means you lost game one, and i can't see them making a huge impact on the comeback wins. don't get me wrong, the card is utterly fantastic, but i feel like the sideboard isn't it's home.

i don't know how i feel about teferi. in the limited playtesting i've given him, he's never done much. also, you can't really count on a singleton sideboard card very much, even if you're running a lot of dig. there are going to be matches where you never see him, nevermind get him to stick on the board.

i think hydroblast (and it's mirrors) and chill are some of the best sideboard cards we have.

I have done more testing and finally decided that SSS needs to come out. There are to many times that he is just plain bad for us and I hate that. I know that SillyAndrew does not like spire golem but I really really like him. I would not play him though if I did not run jitte. I get what you mean that this is turning differently then the normal MUC but I don't think that is a bad thing. When I play this deck I still feel that it is MUC.

Morphling- I still love him and feel that he is still good.I love how he is offense and defense in one creature. We could also be playing him differently making him stronger and weaker in ones eye and When I untap with him it is very rarely do I lose. Also, with jitte it will just end the game. If you don't like him then it is pretty simple don't play him. I personally don't like rainbow Efreet hence me not playing. Not saying that it isn't a good creature I personally would just rather have Morphling or clique, or even spire golem. 4 toughness is huge for him and that is what I really like.

Teferi- I don't like him. I tried him and never was pleased. I think he can be good but it might come down to play style or the games you face. I might sb if control picks up but even at that I doubt it.

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Originally Posted by C Rayz Walz

I have done more testing and finally decided that SSS needs to come out. There are to many times that he is just plain bad for us and I hate that. I know that SillyAndrew does not like spire golem but I really really like him. I would not play him though if I did not run jitte. I get what you mean that this is turning differently then the normal MUC but I don't think that is a bad thing. When I play this deck I still feel that it is MUC.

Morphling- I still love him and feel that he is still good.I love how he is offense and defense in one creature. We could also be playing him differently making him stronger and weaker in ones eye and When I untap with him it is very rarely do I lose. Also, with jitte it will just end the game. If you don't like him then it is pretty simple don't play him. I personally don't like rainbow Efreet hence me not playing. Not saying that it isn't a good creature I personally would just rather have Morphling or clique, or even spire golem. 4 toughness is huge for him and that is what I really like.

Teferi- I don't like him. I tried him and never was pleased. I think he can be good but it might come down to play style or the games you face. I might sb if control picks up but even at that I doubt it.

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The direction you're taking the deck certainly feels like faerie stompy. You play about 8 less creatures and 8 more counterspells / draw. If you want to play an aggro variance of MUC you should drop the 1/1's and 2/2's and throw in those 3/4's and 4/3's.

I also don't like spire golem and I'm not sure in what situation you've found it to outshine any of the other established win cons. The 4 toughness is pretty irrelevant when you compare it to phasing or morphling. I do understand you can drop it on turn three and have a decent body, but wouldn't propaganda or another similar lock piece be better in the long run?

I'd like to see your updated list though. I'm curious if you run sword of feast and famine.

When I play the deck it doesn't play like faerie stompy. It still feels like a control deck when I play it. The 4 toughness is def not irrelevant. It can block clique, wild nactal, and every goblin a big one being goblin piledriver. It also doesn't die to a single bolt or chain which is a big reason why I would never play sea drake. Now the 3/4 I will consider. A lot of times I feel that propaganda does nothing for me. I personally want it only in one or 2 match ups so overall I don't really like it in the main deck. Also, for everyone that keeps saying that you don't like spire golem. Have you guys actually tried him? I know that he looks very bad on paper, but when you play with him he is actually really good. I feel that you just look at him and automatically say that he is bad with out trying him. I am still working some things out so I will post my new list later but I am considering Sword of f&f.

Faerie stompy is, from what I can tell, basically the same strategy you're trying to accomplish. I don't see why you dont add the sol lands and drop the 1/1 cip creatures for some fat flyers and cotv.

As far as spire golem. I only meant, by saying that the toughness was irrelevant, was that block phasing or pumping morphling is practically the same effect. The propaganda comment was in response to you saying that you can drop spire golem on turn three and soak up damage. Well, you can drop propaganda on turn three also and soak up some damage.

We definatley have diverging ideologies when it comes to MUC though. I prefer to drop a creature that can go all the way with little or no help (although I have been meaning to try out Oona, I haven't played with her enough to decide if I like her or not). I do like jitte... a lot... but for the life of me and I can't see it ever being in a deck and it still being called dedicated control.

But back to spire golem, yes he definitely looks bad on paper. The opportunity cost of playing him in a deck where card quality matters a lot is far too high. To be honest I'd rather rock 4 rainbow efreets then 4 spire golems, and that's not even necessary.

If you're considering sword of feast and famine I suggest you try it, I think it's the best sword for a control heavy deck. When I see your list, I'll give it a run and maybe you can change my mind about bad on paper good in play mr. spire golem.

oona isn't a terrible idea in my opinion. she's a good way to make full use of your mana eot if you don't have anything else to play, and you can't argue with the 5/5 body.

i've opted out of oona for two reasons however. the first, is that she's a little too expensive for my taste to not have any sort or inherent protection. the second, is that there are a lot of matchups where you aren't going to want to use her ability at all, given your opponents graveyard interactions. i'm the sort of player that doesn't want to give the opponent any sort of leverage whatsoever (especially playing dedicated control) so that pushed oona into the no column for me.

all of that being said, in the right situation, oona is a ferocious beast. her ability to create faeries could be compared to morphlings untapping, because either way, you have blockers for the next turn, and against decks that swarm, i'd argue this ability is better. combine these little fliers with a propaganda/shackles on the table, and nothing gets through, while she can beat for the win.

also, it may be a moot point, but you can't doomblade oona.

i'm not sure if i'd run oona over sphinx of jwar isle though. (oona = sphinx < morphling.)

I tryied Oona ... and seriously ... I never think it's good when I topdeck it, or I would love a CC or something else, whatever, but not oona ..; too bad I buy one foil for nothing ^^

now seriously speaking, I tryied the deck a bit more ... and I really have the feeling that ... it's bad T_T ... I love this deck, but everytime I'm playing against landstill, dredstill or New Horizon, I loose, because I have too many lands, not enough lands ... or whatever ... I really have bad hands =S Probably it's me, a few weeks ago I played against new horizon and I had an "easy" win 2-0 against it ^^.

now with SSS, i start to have some problems ... I have the same feeling that everyone, it's or really good, or really bad ... there is no middle =S
I start to have some questions about the deck in itselves, or the build we are going to, I think I'll try a list like Sillyandrew plays (btw, can you give us the actual list you're playing with? thx)
and I'll see the difference.

I'm still a big fan of CC, so I'll run it anyway ^^.
I personally think that BS + fetch + sphinx of jwar isle + jace = roxx ^^ but it starts to be difficult to enter everything in a list.

EDIT:
I'll try a list like this one :
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
18 [UNH] Island
1 [ZEN] Sphinx of Jwar Isle
2 [US] Morphling
2 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 [UD] Powder Keg
3 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
2 [LRW] Cryptic Command
3 [IN] Fact or Fiction
3 [VI] Impulse
3 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [CST] Brainstorm
4 [7E] Counterspell
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [NPH] Mental Misstep

I'm looking forward to have your advice and to know what you think about it. I go to spain soon, so I won't be available for a while, but as I come back I'll test again :)

Gerry Thompson made us see how a draw-go control deck is still viable.

My idea is that back to basics needs to fit a draw-go deck. casting B2B after countering most of opponent spells is a huge play even if the opponent runs 3 basic lands. It's MUC's bomb and one of the reason why we play the deck.

I played Ophidian Muc back some years (2007 & 2008). http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/visualv...=13295&id=1226
I think jace TMS, s.snare & m.misstep are the perfect substitute to ophidian, force spike and mana leak in the old draw-go muc that made the hystory of the archetype.

something like that is what I mean:

4 force of will
4 counterspell
4 spell snare
3 mental misstep

4 brainstorm
4 fact or fiction

3 vedalken shackles
2 back to basics

3 repeal
1 ratchet bomb
1 powder keg

3 jace TMS
2 morphling

18 island
2 polluted delta
2 flooded strand

side:
2 relic of progenitus
1 surgical extraction
1 back to basics
3 Llawan, cephalid empress
2 nevinyrral's disk
3 submerge
2 pithing needle
1 masticore

what you think ?

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Originally Posted by serendib

Gerry Thompson made us see how a draw-go control deck is still viable.

My idea is that back to basics needs to fit a draw-go deck. casting B2B after countering most of opponent spells is a huge play even if the opponent runs 3 basic lands. It's MUC's bomb and one of the reason why we play the deck.

I played Ophidian Muc back some years (2007 & 2008). http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/visualv...=13295&id=1226
I think jace TMS, s.snare & m.misstep are the perfect substitute to ophidian, force spike and mana leak in the old draw-go muc that made the hystory of the archetype.

something like that is what I mean:

4 force of will
4 counterspell
4 spell snare
3 mental misstep

4 brainstorm
4 fact or fiction

3 vedalken shackles
2 back to basics

3 repeal
1 ratchet bomb
1 powder keg

3 jace TMS
2 morphling

18 island
2 polluted delta
2 flooded strand

side:
2 relic of progenitus
1 surgical extraction
1 back to basics
3 Llawan, cephalid empress
2 nevinyrral's disk
3 submerge
2 pithing needle
1 masticore

what you think ?

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How do yu defeat Merfolk? I would play more fetches with 7 brainstorm effects in the deck.