[Deck] GW/x Maverick

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Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning

All I see with Jitte off the draw is spell snare fodder, and while Stoneforge is too, if it sticks you get the card advantage. Also, stoneforge can't be touched by spell pierce.

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So Witness it back. Or just draw another Jitte which you have because you run multiples. Yes, Jitte can be dealt with. And it has to be. Or you'll just win.

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Further, against the mirror, or a deck with big dudes (Reanimator) and Sword of Cool & Awesome keeps your Thrun alive, whereas Jitte just gets a few counters.

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Thrun, as it turns out, has regeneration.

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A batterskull spells GG in certain matchups.

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Please name one where Jitte doesn't. Without costing five to re-equip.

Go on. I'll be over here, waiting.

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Also, the diversity is just nice to have--3x jitte is consistent, sure, but I like to know that I have more answers than just that.

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See I disagree. I think diversity feels nice to certain people because they feel like they can always draw the optimal card in any given situation. But take that to its logical outcome and you wind up with the list zulander posted in parody.

Diversity for its own sake is useless. Running four ofs isn't boring, it's good deckbuilding. I mean a toolbox can be worthwhile, I certainly don't advocate cutting Knight or GSZ, but it has to earn its keep.

I don't really think SFM is doing that in the meta, not when Jitte already does so much. Like, SFM isn't free. SFM into Jitte into equip is six mana, a full half again as much as you'd have spent just raw-drawing the Jitte.

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The wasteland question pertains to the greedier decks of legacy. RUG, for example, or Zoo. A T1/2 wasteland can be back-breaking against certain decks, and I don't want to rely on KotR to fetch it out. Also, I'm not seeing the level of destabilization your talking about (at least in my manabase).

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Well I have a lot of gg and ww spells; you may have less.

I find mana denial to be a really shaky and unreliable strategy and don't want to build the deck to pursue it. A strategy that starts sucking if they draw a couple lands, and might even bite you on the ass, isn't really important enough to run the third Wasteland to me, although I don't think there's anything intrinsically wrong with it.

When thrun regenerates, he deals no damage. Thus no jitte counters. With a sword, the combo of protection and +2/+2 allows him to actually kill things. Further, you can equip a Sword to a mindcensor/scryb/dweeb and block all day.

Batterskull ends games against Fish--which does run jitte.

The way I see SFM is this: It's a 1/2 creature that fetches you a sword. The vialing ability circumvents larger costs (Skull, Swords, etc.) Nigh-pointless with Jitte, I understand, but it gets around counterspells. Either way, it's still a decent Squire that replaces itself in your hand.

I get the point of playsets--that's why I run 4 KotRs & GSZs. Consistency is key in making a good deck. However, being too consistent makes you predictable. Matches are won not in the first game but in the 2nd and 3rd. I like the ability to avoid something like Pithing Needle G2/G3. Even if they name my Mystic I still get the tutoring.

A final note: do you always respond to comments and critique with snarky dogmatism? I mean, this is a forum dedicated to improving a deck archetype and those who play it--not to prove you can come up with witty comebacks or put-downs. It's ultimately uninviting to new ideas and development. Just food for thought. ;)

You should read the game rules on regeneration before posting like a fool.

I'm just going to do a big IIRC, since I haven't regenerated basically anything since pre-6th:

You form a "regeneration bubble" so the next time it would be destroyed, it instead isn't. Isn't that the basic gist? You still deal and receive damage normally, just instead of dying, you don't. Correct?

-Matt

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

A lone Mother of Runes is a pretty weak defense, ultimately, which was the reason I cut the card

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I was actualy giving you credit until i read this. You're so wrong, so, so wrong.
And btw, i won't argue over this, you can try to justify yourself as much as you want.

@sdematt: Yes, your creature still deals damage.

@arcannys: Okay, whatever. Nice Drudge Skeleton.

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/tip...&format=Legacy

Just the first page, tell me how many lists are not running moms?
If its more than 5% i wont say anything. If its less than 5% you should concider if you're doing something wrong.

And btw, if you're using your moms as blokers you might want to reconsider how you play the deck.

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Originally Posted by arcannys

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/tip...&format=Legacy

Just the first page, tell me how many lists are not running moms?
If its more than 5% i wont say anything. If its less than 5% you should concider if you're doing something wrong.

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Efficient market theory and therefore irrelevant.

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And btw, if you're using your moms as blokers you might want to reconsider how you play the deck.

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Well hi welcome to the conversation, that was my point. If your opponent is using Mom to fog a dude you're in pretty good shape, the only time it's really scary is when it's paired with Knight.

Also,

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Originally Posted by arcannys

And btw, i won't argue over this, you can try to justify yourself as much as you want.

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You not only did you then basically conceded my point.

Do people think shit like this is a figure of speech or what.

I cant believe you're discussing if mom is not good in this deck. This is absurd.
Still waiting for you to show me a list without mom, beside yours...

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Originally Posted by arcannys

Mother of runes is the best card in this deck

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QFT. It's a lot like Goblin Lackey in Goblins.

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Originally Posted by makochman

QFT. It's a lot like Goblin Lackey in Goblins.

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Thank you, finally some sanity around here.
It's a fact that i've never lost more than 15% of my games where i untapped with mom against non-combo decks.

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Originally Posted by makochman

QFT. It's a lot like Goblin Lackey in Goblins.

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NO.

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Originally Posted by arcannys

Thank you, finally some sanity around here.
It's a fact that i've never lost more than 15% of my games where i untapped with mom against non-combo decks.

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So now we are just going to throw out random numbers backed and evidenced by your word?

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

Okay, whatever. Nice Drudge Skeleton

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I see Mom more as a Maze than a Drudge. Most of the time she stops things attacking, occasionally counters a kill spell or lets a Knight get through.

One of the main things Mom does for me is keep Mystic alive so that I can get Equipment past countermagic. Now you have dropped Mystics and are running multiple can-not-be-countered-creatures who are also immune to spot removal so I can see why you have taken Mom out. It does not stop her being a great creature though.

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

I don't really think SFM is doing that in the meta, not when Jitte already does so much. Like, SFM isn't free. SFM into Jitte into equip is six mana, a full half again as much as you'd have spent just raw-drawing the Jitte.

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Without Swords and BSkull Mystic is doing very little more than being a squire with 'draw a card'. Your deck has dropped the white creatures in favour of more library manipulation and being able to Zenith for what you want. I am certainly going to try out Parallax Wave (since I have not used it for years).

How often do you actually find yourself using Top to draw cards? I was thinking of adding a Mirri's Guile to my deck since it does not require mana to use.

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

I'm not sure I even understand the Wasteland question. Against what matchup is it important enough to have more than double Wasteland that the manabase should be distorted further?

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I find it helpful to stop control decks getting to four mana for Wrath, and it can be a way to get around Daze but I have also suffered muligan due to double wasteland. Mana denial is an extra strategy but perhaps man-lands like Stirring Wildwood are a better use of that slot. How often have you found the Wildwood attacks, or even blocks, or is is mostly a comes-into-play-tapped-dual?

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Originally Posted by lyracian

I see Mom more as a Maze than a Drudge. Most of the time she stops things attacking, occasionally counters a kill spell or lets a Knight get through.

One of the main things Mom does for me is keep Mystic alive so that I can get Equipment past countermagic. Now you have dropped Mystics and are running multiple can-not-be-countered-creatures who are also immune to spot removal so I can see why you have taken Mom out. It does not stop her being a great creature though.

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To expound a bit, my problem with the original decklists were that fundamentally they relied too much on team-building, and lacked both enough individually strong cards and manipulation to put a gameplan together.

And there's a lot of decks and cards that prey on such a configuration, from Counterbalance to Jitte, Lavamancer and Cursed Scroll to just plain Sweepers. It also makes it much harder to mulligan successfully.

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How often do you actually find yourself using Top to draw cards? I was thinking of adding a Mirri's Guile to my deck since it does not require mana to use.

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After a certain point in mana development, pretty much always. At that point it smooths out your draws without costing a card which is pretty important in grinding situations, although I can't say Guile would be terrible, although my guess is worse than either Top or Library.

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I find it helpful to stop control decks getting to four mana for Wrath, and it can be a way to get around Daze but I have also suffered muligan due to double wasteland. Mana denial is an extra strategy but perhaps man-lands like Stirring Wildwood are a better use of that slot. How often have you found the Wildwood attacks, or even blocks, or is is mostly a comes-into-play-tapped-dual?

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I've found blocking Delvers with it to be pretty important, and have been pondering squeezing in a second. It's also a nice answer to Jace.

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Originally Posted by sdematt

I'm just going to do a big IIRC, since I haven't regenerated basically anything since pre-6th:

You form a "regeneration bubble" so the next time it would be destroyed, it instead isn't. Isn't that the basic gist? You still deal and receive damage normally, just instead of dying, you don't. Correct?

-Matt

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Regeneration explicitly states that the creature is tapped and removed from combat.

For those who think I'm a fool:


"614.8. Regeneration is a destruction-replacement effect. The word “instead” doesn’t appear on the card
but is implicit in the definition of regeneration. “Regenerate [permanent]” means “The next time
[permanent] would be destroyed this turn, instead remove all damage marked on it and tap it. If it’s
an attacking or blocking creature, remove it from combat.” Abilities that trigger from damage being
dealt still trigger even if the permanent regenerates"

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Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning

Regeneration explicitly states that the creature is tapped and removed from combat.

For those who think I'm a fool:


"614.8. Regeneration is a destruction-replacement effect. The word “instead” doesn’t appear on the card
but is implicit in the definition of regeneration. “Regenerate [permanent]” means “The next time
[permanent] would be destroyed this turn, instead remove all damage marked on it and tap it. If it’s
an attacking or blocking creature, remove it from combat.” Abilities that trigger from damage being
dealt still trigger even if the permanent regenerates"

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Are you implying that creatures die in combat before they deal damage?

I'm just asking your expert opinion, since you are obviously no fool.

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Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning

Regeneration explicitly states that the creature is tapped and removed from combat.

For those who think I'm a fool:


"614.8. Regeneration is a destruction-replacement effect. The word “instead” doesn’t appear on the card
but is implicit in the definition of regeneration. “Regenerate [permanent]” means “The next time permanent] would be destroyed this turn, instead remove all damage marked on it and tap it. If it’s an attacking or blocking creature, remove it from combat.” Abilities that trigger from damage being dealt still trigger even if the permanent regenerates"

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"614.1. Some continuous effects are replacement effects. Like prevention effects (see rule 615), replacement effects apply continuously as events happen--they aren't locked in ahead of time. Such effects watch for a particular event that would happen and completely or partially replace that event with a different event. They act like "shields" around whatever they're affecting."

Just to close the regenaration thing up.
Regenration is a replacement oeffect of being destroyed.
Creatures in combat deal damage to each other, then if there lethal damage on those creatures they die. If a creature has regeneration up, it will be tapped and removed from combat instead of being destroyed. All that after dealing combat damage.

This may also be a ridiculously stupid question, but I have to ask. Do you have to pay for the regeneration before combat damage or can you just leave the mana open and IF the creature (thrun) receives leathal you pay for it?

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Originally Posted by rxavage

This may also be a ridiculously stupid question, but I have to ask. Do you have to pay for the regeneration before combat damage or can you just leave the mana open and IF the creature (thrun) receives leathal you pay for it?

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Regeneration "shields" must be up before lethal damage is dealt or a destroy effect resolves.