[Primer/Deck] Pox

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Originally Posted by beez

I like Sylvan Library better than Top in most instances but I've started using it in Loam Pox too because of the very handy ability in Loam Pox to protect your Loam from anti-graveyard by Loaming in response with Top ability and putting Top on the deck. I like two in the G/B and one in Mono Black versions, though making space is always tough.

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I have also tried Sylvan library and never liked it, I absolutely love the one Sensei's Top, I may have to try out a second. I have played barren moor is previous version for the loam protection as well.

I find that I play the deck with a lot less reliance on the graveyard now, in matches without obvious dead cards I tend to trim all the graveyard cards. Opponents tend to bring in graveyard hate against me and be very sad when the surgical my loam and don't find anymore.

Your list seems very familiar, Thoughtsieze over hymn or 4th inquisition or cabal therapy seem a bit weird but thoughtseize is a great card so I guess you can't go wrong. I've never been able to get myself to want the extra selection over saving 2 life. I also like bojuka bog main over maze of ith, but that is dependent on your meta(could also be karakas or cabal pit). Tabernacle is also amazing I run one main and one side but I know they are prohibitively expensive.

I have a hard time with Barren Moor as Loam protection because it always feels a little clunky to have to hold a black open in a deck that needs double black and a green as well, and it itself is Loam dependant to have any use. Meanwhile, Top is pretty useful anyway and can protect your Loam at the cost of no mana whatsoever. It can be needled but they are probably more likely to name Liliana or maybe even Thespian Stage.
I find a loop with Loam/Stage/Glacial Chasm to be a bit unreliable to set up, in this version, but still have it as a break glass in emergency against some degenerate decks. This works better in a deck that has more Stages and Crop Rotations and a faster clock with more Dark Depths to end it while they are Chasmed out faster than the pinging away at 2 a turn while Chasm goes exponential.
I have also come to the same sideboarding strategy of going a little less graveyard beyond the first game. Unless there are obvious dead cards I tend to side out one Loam, one Entomb and one Crop Rotation (Loam allows you to use CR more aggressively, and Smallpox too for that matter) and side in three from the board something like +2 Deed and +1 Deluge vs heavy creatures and permanents. Combo tends to gravehate less in boarding and I have the Innocent Bloods to side out there first, and Raven's Crime is very good there.
In a grindy deck the two life of Thoughtseize does add up as do the one life of the six fetches, but Thoughtsieze is such the better card it is hard to try and not use it in Legacy. Catching a Jace and Batterskull and Force can be key. But I have taken out one Thoughtsieze and maindecked the Raven's Crime now as I can Crime fearlessly in game one other than the occasional Deathrite Shaman, and side it out with a Loam and Entomb against many decks for the following games.
Hymn has always been amazing, but in a deck that really needs the double black and a green and has a bunch of colorless lands and just 3 Urborg, I felt the need to reduce the need for so much double black. Also, pinpoint discard can help clear the way for a sure Marit Lage and more reliable naming with Therapy. I have the Therapies in the side as I hate blind naming with Therapy in game one against unknown opponents.

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Originally Posted by zenitramleirdag

i agree..
chalice on 1 and a pithing needle either on factory or scroll is very back-breaking against a list that runs a lot of :b: cc spells..thats exactly what happened to me last sunday..with 4 innocent bloods, 4 IOKs, 3 cursed scrolls and 4 dark rituals, chalice on 1 really got me..
i missed ratchet bomb in that match-up..

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The single Rack in my main is constantly flipped back and forth with a Powder Keg, I never can seem to make up my mind on which way I want to go with it.

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Originally Posted by zebhillard

The single Rack in my main is constantly flipped back and forth with a Powder Keg, I never can seem to make up my mind on which way I want to go with it.

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Anti-hate isn't as productive as alternate spells. Some cards are too strong to change out, like I wouldn't remove Liliana of the Veil to 'blank' their Pithing needle. Chalice at 1 means you're fighting a slow grinder too and your sideboard shouldn't really be filled with 1 cmc spells aside from your own Pithing Needles.

Chalice @ 1 means you won't need Dark Ritual to power out since your enemy isn't running a fast nutz draw deck. It also means Innocent Blood's speed isn't needed since they'll be playing creature threats later than 'the usual'. The people running 4 copies of the Big Pox probably scoff at Chalice @ 1. My sideboard is chock full of spells that cost more than 1 cmc aside from a single Rack and 2 Pithing Needles. I'm thinking of swapping that Rack for Skullcage now. I don't see Chalice in my meta often. My meta likes high speed.

I think the only deck proven to need an 'anti-sideboard' sideboard [:eyebrow:] is Dredge since it really only has 1 weakness. We attack from all directions so if 1 cmc spells are your problem, changing to slightly slower more effective spells could work. I got my Ratchet Bomb pithed on once. It wasn't cool... :frown:

Forgive the newb-assed questions here, but when you would use Ratchet Bomb against Chalice (for 1, let's say)... would you charge it to 1, or 2?

Also, what are good sideboard cards versus Storm and Dredge? What Extirpate and Needle targets would I use for each? My own lack of experience playing against them tells me I'd side out all my creature hate, and put in Trinisphere for both. Reckon I'd needle Lion's Eye and Polluted Delta against Storm, but I have no idea what to Extirpate. Dredge I'd Extirpate Bridge from Below and Dread Return, and then Engineered Plague for Horrors and Illusions.

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Originally Posted by talkingfawn

Forgive the newb-assed questions here, but when you would use Ratchet Bomb against Chalice (for 1, let's say)... would you charge it to 1, or 2?

Also, what are good sideboard cards versus Storm and Dredge? What Extirpate and Needle targets would I use for each? My own lack of experience playing against them tells me I'd side out all my creature hate, and put in Trinisphere for both. Reckon I'd needle Lion's Eye and Polluted Delta against Storm, but I have no idea what to Extirpate. Dredge I'd Extirpate Bridge from Below and Dread Return, and then Engineered Plague for Horrors and Illusions.

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If you are attempting to destroy a chalice with the ratchet bomb (which I am assuming is your goal by the way you posed your question), then you want to blow up ratchet bomb with 0 (none) counters on it. When chalice is on the battlefield its Converted Mana Cost is 0. When it is being cast (where X=1) then the converted mana cost on the stack will be 2, but right when it hits the battlefield anything that would destroy or get rid of something that is CMC 0 will take care of chalice.

As for your second Question: Storm and dredge can be hurt by Extirpate. Needle against these decks is marginal as it cannot be used to stop mana abilities, which lion's eye diamond is. So naming LED with needle will do nothing. Against Dredge the best Needle target I can think of would probably be Cephallid Colosseum. I'm not sure how effective that would be against them however. Against Dredge Extirpate is kind of tricky and depends on the situation. You could always Extirpate their Narcomeoba after it hits the GY with the trigger on the stack, or hit their Ichorids possibly since you may have a tough time dealing with those yourself. I'd say hitting bridge is alright, but you can get rid of Bridge many ways such as animating your mishras factory and killing it via, smallpox, wastelanding it, or even innocent blood. Dread Return is an option if they end up on that plan, but I think in that case you would rather them flash back the Dread Return and simply extirpate their target.

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Originally Posted by Megadeus

If you are attempting to destroy a chalice with the ratchet bomb (which I am assuming is your goal by the way you posed your question), then you want to blow up ratchet bomb with 0 (none) counters on it. When chalice is on the battlefield its Converted Mana Cost is 0. When it is being cast (where X=1) then the converted mana cost on the stack will be 2, but right when it hits the battlefield anything that would destroy or get rid of something that is CMC 0 will take care of chalice.

As for your second Question: Storm and dredge can be hurt by Extirpate. Needle against these decks is marginal as it cannot be used to stop mana abilities, which lion's eye diamond is. So naming LED with needle will do nothing. Against Dredge the best Needle target I can think of would probably be Cephallid Colosseum. I'm not sure how effective that would be against them however. Against Dredge Extirpate is kind of tricky and depends on the situation. You could always Extirpate their Narcomeoba after it hits the GY with the trigger on the stack, or hit their Ichorids possibly since you may have a tough time dealing with those yourself. I'd say hitting bridge is alright, but you can get rid of Bridge many ways such as animating your mishras factory and killing it via, smallpox, wastelanding it, or even innocent blood. Dread Return is an option if they end up on that plan, but I think in that case you would rather them flash back the Dread Return and simply extirpate their target.

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Awesome, thanks for the effort of writing that up. I had totally forgotten about LED being a mana effect, and misremembered the second part of Bridge. Is Flame-Kin Zealot the better target than Dread Return? I'm guessing if I managed to Extirpate their Narco or Icorids that Dread would not be super useful, nor Cabal Therapy.

Edit: I also have a couple of Null Rods in my SB for Sensei's, which would take care of LED and Lotus Petal in Storm. Good idea, poor idea?

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Originally Posted by talkingfawn

Awesome, thanks for the effort of writing that up. I had totally forgotten about LED being a mana effect, and misremembered the second part of Bridge. Is Flame-Kin Zealot the better target than Dread Return? I'm guessing if I managed to Extirpate their Narco or Icorids that Dread would not be super useful, nor Cabal Therapy.

Edit: I also have a couple of Null Rods in my SB for Sensei's, which would take care of LED and Lotus Petal in Storm. Good idea, poor idea?

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I'd say Null Rod is definitely good since you will be attacking their lands and cutting off the fast mana from petal and LED is excellent along with the fact that storm generally runs a top or two which are great against your strategy of discard. Shutting all of that down with a single card is powerful.

As for fighting dredge, I'd say that attacking their Narcs/Ichorids is best since you lack things like swords to kill Ichorids and your removal is highly useless against them. I think they are one of the better targets for your extirpate.

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Originally Posted by talkingfawn

Awesome, thanks for the effort of writing that up. I had totally forgotten about LED being a mana effect, and misremembered the second part of Bridge. Is Flame-Kin Zealot the better target than Dread Return? I'm guessing if I managed to Extirpate their Narco or Icorids that Dread would not be super useful, nor Cabal Therapy.

Edit: I also have a couple of Null Rods in my SB for Sensei's, which would take care of LED and Lotus Petal in Storm. Good idea, poor idea?

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If you're truly terrified of Dredge (as a Pox player, I sure am), then your most powerful GY hate, undisputed in my coach's opinion, is Leyline of the Void. This means flashing back an Ancient Grudge isn't an option (unlike say, Tormod's crypt, which has to be popped immediately upon seeing that card). They need the removal in their opening hand, or they need to top deck it. What's more, an opening Leyline gives massive weight to your discard spells, should you be crazy enough to keep them.

When I fight Dredge, I run 4 Engineered Plagues, 3 Ensnaring Bridge, 3 Relic of Progenitus, 2 Extirpate, and 1 Night of Souls' Betrayal.

Suffice it to say, Liliana actually has to be boarded out, which makes me weep, but when the smoke clears, I almost never lose games 2 and 3. I find it best to Extirpate their non-creature disruption spells like Cabal Therapy or any of their flashbackers. My creature hate is so strong that it's the triggered abilities and the stack that I fear from them.

If you're running 12+ discard spells, Storm is a joke. Only bad draws should kill you at that point.

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Originally Posted by OmniStrata

advice

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Excellent, thanks man. I'll stick to the plan for Dredge (I don't use Leyline in my SB), and concentrate on discard and go with Null Rod, Extirpate, and Trinisphere for Storm.

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Originally Posted by talkingfawn

Excellent, thanks man. I'll stick to the plan for Dredge (I don't use Leyline in my SB), and concentrate on discard and go with Null Rod, Extirpate, and Trinisphere for Storm.

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Trinispere is also great against dredge. I love Extirpate, I play G/B Pox with 2 Extirpate and 2 Bojuka Bog(1 main 1 side) and 3 crop rotations main. I have never had an issue with Dredge and can regularly win game 1.

The best way to know what to extirpate is to actually play games with dredge, sometimes it is right to attack their first dredgers sometimes it is better to go after ichords and narcomebas sometimes it is better to go after bridge from below and dread return. It is hard to give advice on which is better because it is situational but I would recommend sticking to the pairs above. for example going to ichords and bridges still leaves them dread return a fatty with narcomebas.

Also don't forget you can kill bridges with Mishra's factory and wasteland, and liliana can target yourself for the creature sac.

Another interesting interaction is smallpox, because of the wording/order on smallpox, if they discard bridge then sac a creature they get the token.

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Originally Posted by jredelstein

Trinispere is also great against dredge. I love Extirpate, I play G/B Pox with 2 Extirpate and 2 Bojuka Bog(1 main 1 side) and 3 crop rotations main. I have never had an issue with Dredge and can regularly win game 1.

The best way to know what to extirpate is to actually play games with dredge, sometimes it is right to attack their first dredgers sometimes it is better to go after ichords and narcomebas sometimes it is better to go after bridge from below and dread return. It is hard to give advice on which is better because it is situational but I would recommend sticking to the pairs above. for example going to ichords and bridges still leaves them dread return a fatty with narcomebas.

Also don't forget you can kill bridges with Mishra's factory and wasteland, and liliana can target yourself for the creature sac.

Another interesting interaction is smallpox, because of the wording/order on smallpox, if they discard bridge then sac a creature they get the token.

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Can you post your gb pox?

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Originally Posted by Ancestral

Can you post your gb pox?

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I tried sharing a pic of all the Japanese Foils but it wasn't working.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-8...ew?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-8...ew?usp=sharing

4 Smallpox
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Entomb
3 Crop Rotation
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Life from the Loam
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Senei's Divining Top
1 Raven's Crime
1 Bloodghast
1 Nether Spirit

4 Wasteland
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Thespian Stage
2 Mishra's Factory
2 Swamp
1 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Bojuka Bog
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

SB:
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
2 Extripate
2 Duress
2 Disfigure
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Golgari Charm
1 Night of Soul's Betrayal
1 Garruk Relentless

I really like the Mainboard right now, I may try swapping the 3rd Entomb for the 2nd Sensei's Divining Top. The Sideboard could change depending on Meta, the Night of Soul's Betrayal is less necessary without Young Pyromancer around same could be said of the second Tabernacle. I would want another Maelstrom Pulse for Jaces, Karakas or Maze of Ith could also fill a slot.

I like your oversized Marit Lage token. Have you used the maindeck Bog to clear out an opponent s grave for keeping them off Delving? I imagine it is a surprise factor in games against grave abusing opponents game one, and good enough in other matchups to keep it main.

How is Garruck been for you? I like him too, but its been awhile since I've given him any run in Loam Pox. What matchups do you like to bring him in most for?

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Originally Posted by beez

I like your oversized Marit Lage token. Have you used the maindeck Bog to clear out an opponent s grave for keeping them off Delving? I imagine it is a surprise factor in games against grave abusing opponents game one, and good enough in other matchups to keep it main.

How is Garruck been for you? I like him too, but its been awhile since I've given him any run in Loam Pox. What matchups do you like to bring him in most for?

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I have used the main deck bog against delve, dredge, storm, snapcaster, gofy, mongoose.

I really like garruk against Miracles, sometime I'll bring it in against slower creature decks. It can really muck up the ground against shardless or stoneblade.

That sounds like it would be good against Stoneblade and Miracles. I'd like to try it, maybe I could replace a Krosan Grip with a Garruck if two Grips are overkill, but they help with Miracles quite a bit.

I will run this tomorrow

CREATURES (13)

4 Bloodghast
4 Bloodsoaked Champion
4 Pack Rat
1 Filth

SORCERIES (12)

4 Pox
4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach

INSTANTS (4)

4 Diabolic Edict

PLANESWALKERS (4)

4 Liliana of the Veil

ARTIFACTS (6)

3 Ratchet Bomb
2 The Rack
1 Sensei’s Divining Top

LANDS (22)

2 Mishra’s Factory
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
12 Swamp
3 Wasteland
2 Bloodstained Mire

SIDEBOARD (15)

4 Engineered Plague
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline of the Void

I removed the Cabal Therapies and Gitaxian Probe.
Somewhat reluctantly i have bought Bloodstained Mire. i'll get the last two this week.

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

I removed the Cabal Therapies and Gitaxian Probe.
Somewhat reluctantly i have bought Bloodstained Mire. i'll get the last two this week.

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Don't forget your Badlands. :cool: I would like to see a B/R Pox that wins due to B/G being the other common Pox and Vaka B/W has dropped off the face of the Earth. You also get the mighty Dreadbore.

There are not any BR spells that look hot to me.
Mono-red spells perhaps, but i haven't looked through any burn list yet for inspiration.

Devestating Dreams would be good if you could figure out how to make it work.