[Primer] Nic Fit

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Originally Posted by Echelon

I may be nitpicking here, but if a 4 mana card is too slow to be reliably used as a SB card, why would you replace it with 2 5(!) mana cards..? Seems very counterproductive.

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The idea behind Baloth was to have a Sideboard card against discard heavy decks with Liliana and have an additional splash use against Burn. It turned out, the splash use against Burn didn't exist because it was too slow, so it turned into a sideboard card that was only relevant against Liliana decks. So instead i play Nissa to have a different card that's useful against Liliana decks and also useful against other slow decks (like UWx decks), but unfortunately useless against Burn.

I don't have enough data yet to know if i need something against Burn in that slot instead, but probably not - i can disrupt them with discard and race them with Marit Lage, if i want lifegain i have Courser and Scooze. Technically, i don't have enough data to know if i want these slots against slower decks at all, so maybe i end up with something completely different. (Yesterday i tried it with just 1 Nissa and only 1 Explosives and 2 Pernicious Deed instead. In 11 matches Deed was relevant exactly once, but in that spot won me the game.)

If you want to improve your burn matchup, Collective Brutality.

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Originally Posted by Navsi

If you want to improve your burn matchup, Collective Brutality.

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Already 3 in the sideboard, i like that card a lot. That's one reason why i don't think i really need more for that.
(So far i'm 3-1 against Burn with this build, 7-4 in games. So it's probably fine.)

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Originally Posted by Leshrac82

Already 3 in the sideboard, i like that card a lot. That's one reason why i don't think i really need more for that.
(So far i'm 3-1 against Burn with this build, 7-4 in games. So it's probably fine.)

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Move it to the maindeck. Why play a card that's good against basically every matchup in the side? You'll just board it in every game anyway.

Hi. Long time no see with Magic. I'm planning to go at least play some legacy and I need some advice. Which nicfit would be better in meta filled with delvers? abzan-fit or punishing-jund-fit?
There are also DnT, some storm decks and rarely lands/reanimator

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Originally Posted by Navsi

Move it to the maindeck. Why play a card that's good against basically every matchup in the side? You'll just board it in every game anyway.

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But what should i cut from the maindeck? Going with that logic, i shouldn't cut cards that are good against everything and rather cut cards i board out a lot - but those are cards with a very high impact in certain matchups: Gaddock Teeg, Bojuka Bog - there is no way i'm cutting either of these cards, they turn some otherwise very unfavorable preboard matchups into even and sometimes favorable preboard matchups. I also board out either Dark Depths or the Eldrazi package in many matchups, but in the matchups i don't board it out it's very important to have access to it. The next card i board out a lot is Cabal Therapy, but that's probably needed for the NicFit engine (not enough experience with NicFit in general, so maybe boarding it out is wrong, but so far i think it has worked out fine to cut it against all the slow and grindy decks).

In the past i played less than 4 Crop Rotations for more interaction in the maindeck, and i had Brutality maindeck for a while, but i've come the conclusion Crop Rotation is just too important and too good in this deck to play less than 4. I also played less than 4 Tireless Trackers, but the card is just really strong in almost every matchup and my results with more Trackers have always been better.

I think Brutality as a sideboard card is fine, even though i bring it in in almost every game. It's never the best card in any matchup, it just replaces the cards that are worse in the particular matchup. Most of my sideboard cards could be played in the maindeck, i just prefer to have the narrow high impact silver bullets maindeck instead and to board them out when i don't need them.

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Originally Posted by Leshrac82

But what should i cut from the maindeck? Going with that logic, i shouldn't cut cards that are good against everything and rather cut cards i board out a lot - but those are cards with a very high impact in certain matchups: Gaddock Teeg, Bojuka Bog - there is no way i'm cutting either of these cards, they turn some otherwise very unfavorable preboard matchups into even and sometimes favorable preboard matchups. I also board out either Dark Depths or the Eldrazi package in many matchups, but in the matchups i don't board it out it's very important to have access to it. The next card i board out a lot is Cabal Therapy, but that's probably needed for the NicFit engine (not enough experience with NicFit in general, so maybe boarding it out is wrong, but so far i think it has worked out fine to cut it against all the slow and grindy decks).

In the past i played less than 4 Crop Rotations for more interaction in the maindeck, and i had Brutality maindeck for a while, but i've come the conclusion Crop Rotation is just too important and too good in this deck to play less than 4. I also played less than 4 Tireless Trackers, but the card is just really strong in almost every matchup and my results with more Trackers have always been better.

I think Brutality as a sideboard card is fine, even though i bring it in in almost every game. It's never the best card in any matchup, it just replaces the cards that are worse in the particular matchup. Most of my sideboard cards could be played in the maindeck, i just prefer to have the narrow high impact silver bullets maindeck instead and to board them out when i don't need them.

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I've struggled with that question when it comes to Brutality too, it's sort of occupying the same space as Rotation as a versatile card. You could try a 2-2 or 3/1 split of Crop Rotation/Collective Brutality.

I plan to try and incorporate Brutality in my GB build. I've identified a slot for a single copy right now, but I wouldn't mind making it two copies. It's possible I could do so as a 61st card, but right now I'm at 60 which is where I would rather be. I'm considering it over my Maze of Ith.

This is what I'm considering with Brutality added to my deck, it brings it back up to 61:

Land 24
3 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
5 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
2 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Dryad Arbor

Creature 18
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth

Spells 19
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Crop Rotation
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Collective Brutality
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Nissa, Vital Force

Sideboard 15
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Crop Rotation
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Golgari Charm
4 Lost Legacy
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Treetop Village
1 Maze of Ith
1 Mirri's Guile
1 Open

Of course, this wrecks my plan to include 1 Mirri's Guile MB. I do feel like this is homing in on the post SDT list that I want to be on though.

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Originally Posted by Brael

I've struggled with that question when it comes to Brutality too, it's sort of occupying the same space as Rotation as a versatile card. You could try a 2-2 or 3/1 split of Crop Rotation/Collective Brutality.

I plan to try and incorporate Brutality in my GB build. I've identified a slot for a single copy right now, but I wouldn't mind making it two copies. It's possible I could do so as a 61st card, but right now I'm at 60 which is where I would rather be. I'm considering it over my Maze of Ith.

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Your build has some similiraties to mine, mostly the focus on Tracker and the Crop Rotations. Now consider: I have the Dark Depths combo as additional Crop Rotation targets and in many games just getting Cloudposts or Eye of Ugin is the way to win the game - and i play Titania, that can turn a Crop Rotation into two 5/3 creatures. I think that makes Crop Rotation even better in my build. And that's why i'm currently thinking just playing the full 4 is better than a split. I played the split before, but i'm thinking in the current metagame this is just the better option. (Against old Miracles Crop Rotation was awful because of CounterTop, that was the primary reason to play less than the full set for me. If Chalice decks get much more popular, i might go back to less than 4 Crop Rotations.)

I played Maze of Ith in earlier builds. I cut it eventually because i realized i almost never searched for it - it was often ok when i had it, but not more. Since you don't have Mox Diamonds to discard it if you don't want it, it's probably even worse for you. So it's probably safe to cut it.

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Originally Posted by Leshrac82

Your build has some similiraties to mine, mostly the focus on Tracker and the Crop Rotations. Now consider: I have the Dark Depths combo as additional Crop Rotation targets and in many games just getting Cloudposts or Eye of Ugin is the way to win the game - and i play Titania, that can turn a Crop Rotation into two 5/3 creatures. I think that makes Crop Rotation even better in my build. And that's why i'm currently thinking just playing the full 4 is better than a split. I played the split before, but i'm thinking in the current metagame this is just the better option. (Against old Miracles Crop Rotation was awful because of CounterTop, that was the primary reason to play less than the full set for me. If Chalice decks get much more popular, i might go back to less than 4 Crop Rotations.)

I played Maze of Ith in earlier builds. I cut it eventually because i realized i almost never searched for it - it was often ok when i had it, but not more. Since you don't have Mox Diamonds to discard it if you don't want it, it's probably even worse for you. So it's probably safe to cut it.

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I tried the Dark Depths combo but it just wasn't strong enough, that combo is what lead me to trying Crop Rotation in the first place. Ultimately, the combo wasn't good enough but Crop Rotation quickly proved itself to be a keeper. I've never gone beyond 2. I could probably fit a third if I were willing to cut one Phyrexian Tower for a copy but 2 has just felt right. I think over extending into Crop Rotation into a format of Force of Will is a bit risky, two has been the perfect balance.

Titania is good, but a bit too slow I feel. I've tried it but just wasn't a fan. 5 CMC really needs to be something special in my opinion, and if you include a GSZ and a Crop Rotation you're up to needing 7 mana. I think that's too much to dump into a card that doesn't have an immediate impact. Granted, the board presence does make a big difference on the following turn but I just want something faster. I think Nissa does a better job of offering speed. Also there's something special about 5 CMC: It's the highest mana opening you can have. So I like to look at powerful 4 drops I can GSZ or 5 drops I can't for those high impact T2's. Titania is one mana too expensive for that with a GSZ.

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Originally Posted by Brael

I tried the Dark Depths combo but it just wasn't strong enough, that combo is what lead me to trying Crop Rotation in the first place. Ultimately, the combo wasn't good enough but Crop Rotation quickly proved itself to be a keeper. I've never gone beyond 2. I could probably fit a third if I were willing to cut one Phyrexian Tower for a copy but 2 has just felt right. I think over extending into Crop Rotation into a format of Force of Will is a bit risky, two has been the perfect balance.

Titania is good, but a bit too slow I feel. I've tried it but just wasn't a fan. 5 CMC really needs to be something special in my opinion, and if you include a GSZ and a Crop Rotation you're up to needing 7 mana. I think that's too much to dump into a card that doesn't have an immediate impact. Granted, the board presence does make a big difference on the following turn but I just want something faster. I think Nissa does a better job of offering speed. Also there's something special about 5 CMC: It's the highest mana opening you can have. So I like to look at powerful 4 drops I can GSZ or 5 drops I can't for those high impact T2's. Titania is one mana too expensive for that with a GSZ.

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Advantage for me with the Dark Depths combo: Stage can just copy a Cloudpost - i'm not playing any Vesuvas in this list in comparison to other 12post lists, this helps to get enough Posts if i need them.
Otherwise, i was always very happy with the combo - when i started the deck i didn't play it and a few months ago i tried a build without it, and both builds were considerably worse than any other build i tried so far. I'm winning many games with the combo - at some point i counted for a while, and it was like that: 25% of my wins were with Marit Lage, 30% with Eldrazi, 45% with the midrange plan. Now i'm even playing a 2nd Stage, i think this pushes that percentage even more.
Also to consider: I'm playing Mox Diamond. That makes a Turn 3 Marit Lage for a Turn 4 kill much more likely, and on the other hand i can discard the Depths if i don't want it.
I think playing the combo gives me the edge against many combo decks: I can disrupt them a little bit, but often not long enough to win with just a midrange plan or Eldrazi, but it buys the 1-2 turns my combo is slower than their combo. And occasionally the combo is even fast enough without any disruption - Turn 3 kills are possible, just rare (in theory a Turn 2 kill is possible, but that needs a perfect hand: Tower, Mox, 2x Crop Rotation, Explorer, any Land makes a Turn 1 Marit Lage).
Afaik you are struggling against Elves, i usually beat them with Marit Lage (it's the worst matchup for a grindy plan, either Emrakul or Marit Lage works with some disruption to buy the time, and Marit Lage is usually faster).

Crop Rotation against FoW: Against FoW decks i don't just go for it with Crop Rotation. It's Wasteland protection first, i go for it proactively only when either: 1. I'm sure it resolves. 2. I don't care that much if it doesn't resolve. 3. I have to because if it doesn't resolve i'm dead.
Most of the time i draw out their FoWs with my other stuff - it that resolves it's also fine, almost all my threats win the game if they don't deal with them.

I don't go for Titania as fast as possible in most cases - my primary payoff with GSZ is Primeval Titan. Titania has two roles in this deck: 1. It can get a land back - i don't play Witness (no room, i tried it and it's fine but not good enough in comparison to other options) and sometimes i have to get back a Cloudpost, Eye of Ugin or part of the Depths combo. Or just any land to ramp. (Most of the time i have to get back Eye of Ugin, because i often discard that Turn 1 to a Mox.) 2. It's a backup win condition to go wide. My deck isn't expected to go wide, i have Marit Lage or Eldrazi as big payoffs, this is another and often unexpected angle. Having the option to go wide can beat cards like Liliana, and Liliana can be a really big problem for my deck.
Nissa could be a replacement, but i use GSZ to get Titania a lot. And Nissa can not beat a strong board presence against an aggro deck like Titania can. I'm probably facing that problem more often than you because of my overall higher curve.

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Originally Posted by Gruby

Hi. Long time no see with Magic. I'm planning to go at least play some legacy and I need some advice. Which nicfit would be better in meta filled with delvers? abzan-fit or punishing-jund-fit?
There are also DnT, some storm decks and rarely lands/reanimator

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Delver equals Abzan. PtE is a damn good card, they don't like to handle Siege Rhinos (even if it's just the lifeswing from the EtB trigger) and they fold to Sigarda. W/ a full set of Wasteland, they're well equiped to deal w/ Grove of the Burnwillows.

@Leshrac82: I've gone through your list of wins/defeats, but looking at that you seem to do just fine vs. decks that would run Liliana (or a lot of discard). Why would you want SB answers for specifically that when you seem to have more trouble w/ RUG Delver/LED Dredge/Grixis Control..? Seems like a total waste of space.

As for Titania - Lightning Bolt is still a card, people. Having your big 5/6 mana play answered by a 1 mana card is not where you want to be. If it's going to cost 5 mana, better make sure you can ride it to victory. Just run Verdurous Gearhulk instead - a 5 mana, 8/8 trample will get you there, quick.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

@Leshrac82: I've gone through your list of wins/defeats, but looking at that you seem to do just fine vs. decks that would run Liliana (or a lot of discard). Why would you want SB answers for specifically that when you seem to have more trouble w/ RUG Delver/LED Dredge/Grixis Control..? Seems like a total waste of space.

As for Titania - Lightning Bolt is still a card, people. Having your big 5/6 mana play answered by a 1 mana card is not where you want to be. If it's going to cost 5 mana, better make sure you can ride it to victory. Just run Verdurous Gearhulk instead - a 5 mana, 8/8 trample will get you there, quick.

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At the point is was changing the sideboard to include cards against Liliana, i was 2-7 against decks with Liliana and 32-6 against decks without Liliana.
And that included one game against Jund where i kept 7, he mulliganed to 3 and he completely destroyed me. With Lingering Souls and Baloth/Nissa, things got better. Maybe i was overreacting, some of those losses could have other reasons, but i had problems against Liliana with my older lists too. I know last year i was barely at 50% winrate against Shardless BUG. And Aggro-Loam was almost unwinnable, i don't really know how i got to 3-0 it with this build, maybe the samplesize is too small. I will definitely keep the Lingering Souls, since they did good work in many other matchups too, including Delver. Nissa is debatable, if i can think of something more important she is probably gone.

RUG Delver is probably ok - it will never be a great matchup, with a Cloudpost deck i can't expect to be a huge favourite against any Delver deck, but i think it's better than BUG Delver and it's probably slightly favorable. LED Dredge should be a very good matchup, probably just a matter of samplesize. I don't worry that much about it, i played a lot against Manaless Dredge with older builds and i'm sure it's 90%+ for me, i don't think LED Dredge is that much worse. Grixis Control could be a problem. I haven't played enough against it, but i lost another match yesterday - i need to make myself familiar with their typical decklists and stop treating it like Grixis Delver (doing that cost me a game yesterday, playing around Wasteland and not around Jace was just stupid). And if i keep losing i probably need to make some changes.

Titania is not really aimed at the decks playing Bolt, those are actually the only fair matchups where i board her out. Gearhulk has absolutely no synergy with my deck, i don't see where that would help any of my problems. If the metagame has too many Bolts i will probably replace Titania with something else, but not Gearhulk. So far i think the advantage to have Titania against fair decks without Bolt outweighs the disadvantage to have her against Bolts, but i could be wrong and i will keep an eye on that, probably make notes about what Titania does for a few days and then reevaluate.

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Originally Posted by Leshrac82

Gearhulk has absolutely no synergy with my deck, i don't see where that would help any of my problems. If the metagame has too many Bolts i will probably replace Titania with something else, but not Gearhulk. So far i think the advantage to have Titania against fair decks without Bolt outweighs the disadvantage to have her against Bolts, but i could be wrong and i will keep an eye on that, probably make notes about what Titania does for a few days and then reevaluate.

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A few points:
- Why should "I win in 2/3 swings" need synergy with the rest of your deck? Sigarda does nothing for Junk Fit but kill the opponent without fail and that's considered perfectly fine.
- It would allow you to dump the Eldrazi/Cloudpost/Glimmerpost package, discounting your backup plan from 8 (Ulamog + a non-Wastelanded Eye) mana to 6 (if we assume we'll never, ever draw into it and will always need to GSZ for it)

Doing so would allow you to operate on less land and more Explorers, boosting speed & resilience to mana denial strategies (improving your RUG Delver MU in the process). You might have to run some Life From The Loam though, to offset opposing Wasteland now you're running less non-basics.

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Originally Posted by Brael

This is what I'm considering with Brutality added to my deck, it brings it back up to 61:

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You have Bojuka Bog listed twice...

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Originally Posted by genuine fugazi

You have Bojuka Bog listed twice...

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Whoops, it should be a third Bayou.

Having a modicum of success with my Punishing Jund built. I know Jund isn't in the vogue right now but I really like Punishing Fire and being able to play with laughable fatties decently makes me smile. I am currently playing with:


Creature (15)

1x Broodmate Dragon
2x Eternal Witness
1x Huntmaster of the Fells
1x Primeval Titan
1x Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Thragtusk
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Tireless Tracker
1x Titania, Protector of Argoth
4x Veteran Explorer

Instant (5)

2x Abrupt Decay
3x Punishing Fire

Land (24)

2x Badlands
2x Bayou
1x Bloodstained Mire
3x Forest
4x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Kessig Wolf Run
1x Mountain
3x Swamp
1x Taiga
4x Verdant Catacombs
2x Wooded Foothills

Enchantment (3)

3x Pernicious Deed

Sorcery (10)

4x Cabal Therapy
2x Collective Brutality
4x Green Sun's Zenith

Planeswalker (3)

3x Liliana of the Veil

Sideboard (15)

1x Choke
1x Golgari Charm
1x Krosan Grip
3x Red Elemental Blast
2x Slaughter Games
3x Surgical Extraction
3x Thoughtseize
1x Toxic Deluge

Pretty stock from the primer selection for the deck, I am not a great deckbuilder so I tend to tinker with known archtypes to find my grove. Titania and Ruric Thar are personal additions, and have served me well. I have never used SDT in Legacy so the sting of its loss does not apply to me, but I do feel like library manipulation is important.

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Originally Posted by studderingdave

I have never used SDT in Legacy so the sting of its loss does not apply to me, but I do feel like library manipulation is important.

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Well... Mirri's Guile is a (fine) card.

Why SDT was so good in the deck was because it could hide from a Deed, I don't think Guile is a good idea in a list with three.

I don't think Guile is worth it. If you want that sort of effect, run Sylvan Library - but personally, I've had plenty of success leaning on Trackers / Nissa / Stoneforge as my card advantage engines.

I finished a modo league run last night, it's been forever since I've done one.

Ran Nyx Fit with Curse of Death's Hold, Overwhelming Splendor, Starfield of Nyx (feel better calling it Nyx Fit when Starfield is in), and Dovescape. Also trying out 2 Vessel of Nascency but was not able to use them yet. List was otherwise pretty similar to my last posted list, heavy on removal, still including Dryad Arbor. Leylines/Lost Legacy/Deluge making up most of the sideboard. I'll try to do another run before posting a list, just to try to get a better impression of the new changes.

Beat 2 ANT lists and also some 4c list that scooped to hardcast Curse and then scooped again after a poor mulligan. Lost to TES and Lands. ANT seemed very easy, TES being faster was problematic (although we have so many ways to deal with goblins), Lands saw me having some poor hands. But small sample size as usual, so who knows.

Overwhelming Splendor so far seems pretty decent. Only downside to Humility is that exorbitant cost. Otherwise huge upside. It's a great first tutor target that slows the opponent down, protects yourself, and allows you to continue your gameplan. Shuts off utility lands, equipment, deathrite, random ability combos like Painter/Grindstone. Not impacting your own Rectors and E Witness is huuuuge.

I'm mainly curious about the Vessels and Starfield - haven't actually ran with Starfield again ever since trying out Cruel/Sandwurm from Amonkhet.