[OLD] UGw Threshold

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Originally Posted by Jaiminho

4/4 is terrible for an unaccelerated 3cc creature.

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Wrong. 4/4 is fairly large for an early game threat. And he's much much bigger by the midgame.

By the time you reach threshold, he will be a 6/6 or bigger without you having to use his ability at all.

Of course, you can use his ability to help you reach threshold faster. You can use it to combo with Top. You can use it combo with CB + Top. You can use it to Waste away opponent's lands and cut them off of a color.

And you can do all this while using him as a very large blocker.

Like I said initially...

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Originally Posted by Captain Hammer

My meta is aggro, lots of creature decks.

So I really wanted to modify my thresh deck to have a much higher threat density....

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Mystic Enforcer
2 Rafiq of the Many

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

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I'm using him against aggro. The plan IS to use him as a blocker in the early game.

He really is a bomb against aggro. And a must counter/kill asap threat against control decks too, same as Goyf.

He starts off as 6/6 blocker in the early game thanks to his ability after all.

And with all the removal floating around, I needed another bomb against aggro and control besides Goyf.

Against what aggro are you running? Blocking against aggro like goblins, merfolk, or elves all seem like a sure fire way to die. Oh, I blocked 1 of your 12 creatures... and I take 16 damage ftl.
Seriously, Rafiq is a win more, is horrible at even doing that and has "daze me!" written all over it...

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Originally Posted by bowvamp

Against what aggro are you running? Blocking against aggro like goblins, merfolk, or elves all seem like a sure fire way to die. Oh, I blocked 1 of your 12 creatures... and I take 16 damage ftl.
Seriously, Rafiq is a win more, is horrible at even doing that and has "daze me!" written all over it...

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Merfolk and Elves both have lords that grant all their guys evasion. In Goblins, you can't block the one guy you really need to with Rafiq (Piledriver).

Rafiq is just bad no matter how you slice it. Use Hierarch or Finks if you need guys that give aggro hiccups.

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Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies

Merfolk and Elves both have lords that grant all their guys evasion. In Goblins, you can't block the one guy you really need to with Rafiq (Piledriver).

Rafiq is just bad no matter how you slice it. Use Hierarch or Finks if you need guys that give aggro hiccups.

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Or even Rhox War Monk. That blue part of the cost doesn't really matter, since it's impossible to have 3 lands and no islands.

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Originally Posted by bowvamp

Against what aggro are you running? Blocking against aggro like goblins, merfolk, or elves all seem like a sure fire way to die. Oh, I blocked 1 of your 12 creatures... and I take 16 damage ftl.
Seriously, Rafiq is a win more, is horrible at even doing that and has "daze me!" written all over it...

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Yeah, because goblins starts out the game with 12 creatures on the board. :rolleyes: Please. When was the last time you played against goblins? I played against goblins just last night. They get maybe one-two swings in (assuming the first thing they dropped wasn't Lackey in which case you used your StP or FoW or Mongoose to stop it) before you can start blocking their bigger threats with Goyfs and Knights. And yes, blocking Piledriver with either Goyf or Knight can save your butt. It doesn't matter than just 2 of your creatures can't block and kill Piledriver, because the other 14 of your threats can.

I agree with you that elves can still be a tough matchup (I dont think it's possible to consistently beat elves with thresh), but my list beats goblins and merfolk and all sorts of other random aggro without any problems.

Rafiq is there to quickly shift the dynamics of the game against fast aggro. And it does this virtually every single time it drops against fast aggro...

I spend the first several turns either detering their attack with one of my big guys or if they attack, blocking and killing their main threats with my big guys (Goyf, Knight, Enforcer, even Mongoose when desperate). Knight pumps itself +2/+2 each time it blocks so it can be a formidable wall early on, and an unstoppable threat by midgame.

They start going for an alpha strike every turn after the third-fourth turn when they have some creatures down. Then, that turn, I drop a Rafiq, I swing with one of my guys to deal a MINIMUM of 10 damage, and sometimes as much as 16. All while leaving the rest of my threats behind to serve as blockers.

Suddenly, they absolutely have to kill me the next turn if they're going to alpha strike, which simply isn't possible since I only had to swing with one guy and have others to serve as blockers. And they end having to leave behind blockers. Winning from that point on is a cake walk.

I agree with you that Rafiq, is probably the weakest threat in the deck in terms of how much it costs. So if I find something better, I might cut it, or I might cut it for O. Ring. But it won't be for the reasons you mentioned. It's not win more, it's actually the opposite. And how would I walk into Daze with Rafiq. What aggro decks play Daze. Well maybe Merfolk but that's aggro control if anything, and it's actually a pretty easy matchup to beat. If I'm facing off against anything other than aggro including Merfolk, why would I be in such a hurry to resolve Rafiq that I would walk into a Daze?

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Originally Posted by Jaiminho

That, sir, is a lie or a cheat.

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As per the previous poster, I found myself nodding until the humility comment. Maybe moat? As that opens up your ground game again. As for predator, I have been a fan of it over the last 2 or so years. I was relatively unfamiliar with it until I visited Japan and noticed how many t2 players were using it and baptizing all sorts of targets. If landed it is also problem pre-board for dreadstill so you can also add dreadnought to that list.

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Hehe... that was obviously a brain fart...I meant to say Worship - which was kind of supposed to be written as a joke... since who the hell plays Worship in Landstil ? Anyhow, the joke's on me. That failed joke was inspired by my final MWS experience: a Goyf-Still player sided-in 4 Mongoose and 2 Worship against me... which prompted me (again) to stop testing on MWS.

Moat, although underplayed in my meta, would be the right call - i.e., you are right sir.

the more i test Knight of the Reliquary, the more i love

OBviously, you can't abuse its ability properly in a traditional UGW. But that doesn't matter. You dont need to abuse it. The beater itself is extraordinary.

The only cons is that it makes the deck more graveyard dependant (as if it wasnt enough)

Robert

So why not try to abuse Knight of the Relinquary by porting the Wasteland Stifle package to UGW?

You mean something like this...

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Originally Posted by Captain Hammer

4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Daze
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Wasteland
3 Flooded Strand
3 Windswept Heath
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains

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I just replaced some threats for 4 Stifle. I think such a list could be very successful.

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Originally Posted by Captain Hammer

You mean something like this...



I just replaced some threats for 4 Stifle. I think such a list could be very successful.

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I wonder, Why knight should be better of terrivore?

I would say because his ability lets you fetch wastelands and your own tormod's crypt doesn't cut his p/t in half.

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Originally Posted by 3duece

I would say because his ability lets you fetch wastelands and your own tormod's crypt doesn't cut his p/t in half.

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The fetch Wasteland is valid but cutting the p/t in half doesn't hold water with me.

KotR's p/t = 2/2 + x/x where x is the number of lands in your graveyard.
Terravore's p/t = X/X where X is the nuber of lands in all graveyards...you aren't terribly worse off with a vore when crypting your opponent than you are with the size of your KotR to begin with.

Terravore also has the keyword "Trample"= though shall not chump me with little tribal dorks or soldier tokens forever or die.

The biggest problem with Terravore is that he eats it to Relic of Progenitus.

KoTR also provides you a funky shuffle effect with top and counterbalance if you really need it.

My feeling is that you get a neato beater with a cool ability but you aren't getting the raw firepower of Terravore or the obnoxious efficiency of Tarmogoyf. I can't see it being worth it personally. I would rather have Dark Confidant, or Mystic Enforcer (hello Mr. Tombstalker...) over it.

How is Terravore better?

He's only decent if your opponent plays tons of fetchlands too. If you're facing off agianst any combo deck or any of the X Stompy decks (Fairie Stompy, Dragon Stompy, Elf Stompy), goblins, fairies, or any random decks at all, Terravore is complete jank.

Stifle is justifiable because in additon to fetchlands, it works against combo and lots of random decks and situations.

Terravore only really works if your opponent plays tons of fetchlands, else, it comes into play as a 2/2 Trampler. He can't block and pump himself. If you're lucky, you'll get him to be a 3/3 or 4/4 Trampler by midgame.

Early game, Knight comes into play as a 4/4 and can block and pump itself to 6/6 asap. By midgame, you've already attacked with a 6/6 several times, where as Terravore finally got to be a 4/4 or 5/5 trampler just then.

How is that even comparable.

So how exactly is Terravore better, unless all you plan to see are matchups playing 8+ fetchlands? And even against decks with 8 fetchlands, your opponent won't usually have more than 2-3 fetchlands in their yard. So Terravore is still the same size as a Knight. You just traded away a really useful ability for trample.

And this isn't even counting how well Knight works with the deck.

a.) It fetches wastelands to cut your opponents off a color so that they have to play and use fetchlands, opening them up to Stifle.

b.) It depletes them of spare mana opening them up to Daze.

c.) It combos with Top, Top + CB, and even Brainstorm and Ponder.

d.) It blocks and pumps itself all while thinning your deck so you draw more threats.

Knight provides an amusing mitigation of LD as well. I think that the Knight is a more unconditional threat although it may or may not be as large as a Terravore.
Also, let's face it most of the DTB play 6-8 fetches at this point, some with Wastelands, not to mention you will be stifling and wastelanding them as well so the opponents graveyard will factor into a P/T.

While in Thresh I think Knight is better than Terravore I wouldn't play either as I still prefer the somewhat outdated Enforcer in a UGw build.

Lastly, I don't think UGw (StP) is objectively as strong as the UGb(Confidant, and Thoughtseize) builds so the point for me is moot.

A quick response to your reasons about synergy:

a. Fetches wastes is cool providing you have enough spare lands yourself. It is a great option, however they are going to use Fetchlands regardless so the last part of your argument is valid but weak.

b. Well yes, this is assuming you have spare mana. This is obviously a reason why TA, Thrash and Dreadstill do so well.

c. The shuffle effect is indeed sweet.

d. Deckthinning...where have I heard that argument before and what was the conclusion...? In all seriousness yes, it will give you a bit of an edge in the late game but after you fetch out your wastelands what are you going to do....nuke your own lands to thin your deck?

It also give you threshhold quicker and makes sinkhole and opposing wastes quite a bit worse.

It is definitely a cool card.

i think stifle/wasteland are bad in ugw because of counterbalance/top.
counterbalance/top usually want to come down asap, if you're wasting your mana/land drops on stopping opponents lands, you may as well play canadian thresh as it does it much better w/ dazes and spell snares to compliment the stifle/wastelands.

Hello, this is my first post in the Source (but i read it since 2 years).

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Originally Posted by sauce

i think stifle/wasteland are bad in ugw because of counterbalance/top.
counterbalance/top usually want to come down asap, if you're wasting your mana/land drops on stopping opponents lands, you may as well play canadian thresh as it does it much better w/ dazes and spell snares to compliment the stifle/wastelands.

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We can play Daze, Stifle , Spell snare, Wasteland with the knight.

I agree that we must choose between CB and the Knight fetching remaining Wastelands in the library.

Why not try something like that ?

4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Spell Snare

It does not have the main drawback of Canadian Threshold and Team America : only 8 threats. It exchanges Fire-ice / Sinkhole for the Knight, and Lightning Bolt / Snuff out for StP.

I don't think Knight or Terravore are good additions to Thresh, but ...

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Originally Posted by Captain Hammer

He's only decent if your opponent plays tons of fetchlands too. If you're facing off agianst any combo deck or any of the X Stompy decks (Fairie Stompy, Dragon Stompy, Elf Stompy), goblins, fairies, or any random decks at all, Terravore is complete jank.

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Goblins, Thresh, Landstill, Dreadstill, Survival, Team America... One can make just as lop-sided an argument for decks that run 7+ Fetchlands. I haven't seen any Stompy decks being played in quite a while, atleast not compared to the decks in the DTB forum running a healthy amount of Fetches. TES is really the only competitive deck that comes to mind that doesn't run any, and even they run Gemstone Mine, and Lion's Eye Diamond so it's not out of the question that a land could find its way into the yard.

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Originally Posted by Captain Hammer

And even against decks with 8 fetchlands, your opponent won't usually have more than 2-3 fetchlands in their yard. So Terravore is still the same size as a Knight. You just traded away a really useful ability for trample.

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One could definitely argue that on 6/6+ beater, Trample is "a really useful ability".

Also if running Wasteland it would also count the land(s) you've wasted to your opponent's grave, so it might be 3-4 instead of 2-3.


All that said I don't feel like either of these creatures are a step in the right direction, I feel like Knight is really over hyped, and its power level is situationally better/worse than Terravore depending on deck design. I really don't think Thresh's design really brings either of them to a power level worth playing.

What's the point of arguing knight v. terravore again? Last time I checked terravore didn't see any playtime in UGw thresh so comparing them is kinda pointless

I like Knight in this deck. However, you can very well play Knight without having to change into LD Thresh with Stifle + Waste, just for his size. If you don't play four Wastes, I think the best thing is to put in one or maybe two utility lands that aren't dead when you draw them, like Nantuko Monastery (might even keep your opponent from dropping Standstill) or Maze of Ith (Dreadnought, 'Stalker etc). Knight gets better after sideboarding when you can put in a singleton Tabernacle against Goblins or other tribal stuff (can't think of other useful sideboard lands right now...Sheltered Valley against Burn :really: ?).

Yeah, I don't know why people compare Knight to Terravore either. Knight is useful for it's utility as well as it's size (and abililty to block and pump itself up permanently). It also helps you get threshold much faster (the same speed as mental note did), so that's something too.

If you're unsure of the card, try playing with it first and let me know if you honestly don't change your mind. I would be surprised.

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Originally Posted by Saverus

Why not try something like this?
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
4 Wasteland

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
4 Spell Snare

It does not have the main drawback of Canadian Threshold and Team America : only 8 threats. It exchanges Fire-ice / Sinkhole for the Knight, and Lightning Bolt / Snuff out for StP.

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I like it, it's very clean and simple. Yeah CB + Top wasn't really pulling it's weight for me anyways.

I'm going to play your build. But because like I said earlier, I find myself wanting more threats in my meta.

I'm going to try...

-2 Spell Snare
+2 Mystic Enforcer