It's a World Enchantment, you can only have one in play at a time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiago_B.
Printable View
It's a World Enchantment, you can only have one in play at a time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiago_B.
I didnt remembered that, thanks. Honestly i think i would win with just one. Ill definitly have a friend from my playgroup pilot Merfolk to test again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grollub
Then Damnation could replace a few Noetic Scales/The Abyss (specially the abyss). I remembered about the card, as i have it, Infest just seemed faster, and against slower aggros our lock works fine.
You might want to consider cheap creature removal - Innocent Blood, Go for the Throat, Smallpox (double as disruption) so you can survive the initial rush to allow your more powerful midgame bombs to take over the game. Lowering the curve will also make it easier to keep/reach the bridge lock.
Looking over your testing reports from the aggro decks, it would appear the lack of interaction in the early game is your achilles heel.
I thought about Inquisition of Kosilek, Innocent Blood, Diabolic Edict (instant removal could deal with animated manlands, emrakul, progenitus).Quote:
Originally Posted by Grollub
Damnation, and this whole black control concept looks amazing. Those cards on the other hand seem too slow (stuff like Smallpox and Go for the Throat in particular) and don't pack anywhere near as much of a punch. What difference does it make whether or not you kill Goyf asap if all creatures are going to be locked up (or swept away by a Damnation) by turn 3-4 anyways?Quote:
Originally Posted by Grollub
With the Ancient Tomb, City of Traitors and Dark Rituals, the deck should be able to cast something useful by turn two at the latest.
Wasteland is a nice way to deal with manlands without eating into your business slots if you are not playing anything that needs more than two black mana (ie. Pox).
Inquisiton should probably be in though, at least sideboard. They are never dead, against any matchup and could help against fast decks. Just don't cut Pithing Needle/Null Rod. You need it against Jace and Painter Stone.
Bombs are only good if you live long enough to drop them. A deck like zoo can easily clip off half your lifebulb, if you don't have some way to slow down their initial rush, before Bridges/Abyss/Scales start taking over the game - at which point Zoo would be in strong position due to it's burn package.Quote:
Originally Posted by vikram
Basically: What'd you rather have against a first turn Nacatl/Lackey - a 4CC answer or a 1-2CC?
Another reason is if your answer cards cost enough to always force you into a tap-out situation you're exceptional fragile against aggro-control too.
Okay, say that Zoo gets you to not 10 but to 7 life by the time you lock up their creatures/put them in topdeck mode.
They play 12 burn spells, so an average of one every five cards they draw. They need three to kill you. So on average you have 15 turns before they kill you.
The Rack kills them in 7 turns. If deck can reliably find and cast a Rack early, it's fine.
The Rack by far the best win condition the deck has, far superior to all the other options especially once your opponent is in topdeck mode.
So I think this deck should cut some win conditions and maybe some of the worse cards to play 4 Beseech the Queen. That way, it can get a Rack online, early, every single game. It only costs four mana to both tutor up and cast The Rack on the same turn. It can also tutor up Ensnaring Bridges or Necrogen Mists as needed.
Ok, so how about this for testing:
This way Beseech the Queen can get almost any card we need. I wanted to include Inquisition of Kosilek (or some kind of removal), but couldnt find a spot for it.Quote:
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// Lands
4 [EX] City of Traitors
15 [MBS] Swamp (1)
3 [PLC] Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
// Spells
4 [SHM] Beseech the Queen
1 [SH] Bottomless Pit
2 [PLC] Damnation
4 [MM] Dark Ritual
4 [8E] Ensnaring Bridge
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (1)
2 [M11] Liliana's Caress
4 [MR] Necrogen Mists
3 [US] Noetic Scales
1 [AP] Phyrexian Arena
1 [M10] Pithing Needle
1 [5E] Pox
3 [LG] The Abyss
4 [TSB] The Rack
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 [ALA] Infest
SB: 3 [WL] Null Rod
SB: 2 [7E] Oppression
SB: 3 [M10] Pithing Needle
How about Guiltfeeder? Good synergy with the lock, except for The Abyss; packs a good punch. Would be easy target for removal though.
If anyone else could test too, it would be fantastic.
I don't see why your playing Pox anymore to be honest. This is a totally different deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiago_B.
I love the new list. Awesome job Tiago.
Yeah Beseech makes a lot of sense if it's used to tutor up The Rack. A 4cc The Rack would still be worth it imo.
Guiltfeeder is a good idea, but probably not for the current meta that is dominated by creatures and removal for creature (which is also what makes this strategy so strong, you make both creatures and creature removal irrelevant).
The 1 ofs can change as needed. I suppose Pox works as a one of to rapidly deal a ton of damage to your opponent.
I'm still genuinely confused why these lists are being put in the Pox thread when they have nothing to do with Pox, they're mono black hand control decks that don't run Pox or Smallpox. I guess there's some overlap but in general they're pretty different.. Although The Rack in an actual Pox deck would be pretty debilitating.Quote:
Originally Posted by Clark Kant
This is true under too many assumptions for my test:Quote:
Originally Posted by vikram
1) They don't play with Sylvan Library.
2) They don't draw/have Pridemage to escape the lock.
3) They don't have any burn spells in hand to begin with.
4) They can't turn fetchlands into pseudo-shocks (Steppe Lynx vs Bridge).
5) They don't have Lavamancer.
A few cheap removal spells will help the deck reach the critical mana mass needed to drop it's bombs without having a knife at it's throat. There's no denying that Damnation cards is one helluva lot better than Innocent Blood and cards like Go for the Throat, but without backing support Damnations will very likely become active too late (think how WU/x decks run 4 Plows before Wraths).
@Tiago: How's the mana curve treating you? It looks really, really high.
If looking for more The Rack's, there's always Wheel of Torture and Paupers' Cage.
The mana curve is still something we have to work on.
Hours ago i lost to goblins 0-2 because of Wasteland and Rishadan port, and while ago i lost to Blue Zoo 1-2 first because of wasteland, and then to burn spells (really long game...took to long to find necrogen mists to decimate his hand, he knows this deck well now so he counters all my beseech the queen and wincons. He sided in Krosan Grip, but it had little effect).
Sun Droplet would work well vs Zoo, since their burn spells are the biggest threat. Maybe just 1, fetchable by Beseech?
Ill be really busy the next days, so i wont have time to test much, or make a new list...
I can say the deck suffers a lot from artifact/enchantment destruction, as well to mana denial cards like wasteland, or rishadan port. And if we combine that with a fast aggro, its too hard to win.
Zoo is specially hard, they run Qasali Pridemage, Krosan Grip, and sometimes Tin Street Hooligan. Its just too much hate, paired with fast creatures and burn spells.
However, in slower metas it should be fine. This lock works great against slower aggro/control and control decks, specially if we can decimate their hand with Hymn and Necrogen Mists/Bottomless Pit/Oppression, and since we dont run creatures the enemy removal becomes a bunch of dead cards.
I still wonder if the list could benefit from a splash, like green, for Life from the Loam (recover from wasteland, Crucible would also fit), Eternal Witness (could be great in here, specially vs hate), some kind of mana ramp, or even Maelstrom Pulse.
I dont really like Chalice of the Void in the SD. Its great at slowing down combo, but it has a really bad synergy with The Rack, which is the best wincon the deck has, so in the end it just slows both decks. I rather have Duress or Despise in its place.
Maybe Trinisphere and Null Brooch (can be fantastic once both players are in topdeck mode) could also find a spot in there.
The problem is that the list is real tight and its hard to take out cards (even more for a splash).
I also think that we should probaly create a topic for this deck in Developmental and stop posting here, but that's up to Clark Kant, since he came up with the ideia.
I unfortunately won't be able to play the deck much either. I have a major move and a new job starting up soon that will eat up my time, so I'll have maybe an hour or two to play it this Wednesday, and then will have to take some time off from Magic till I get used to the job and find a new playgroup in a new city :(
Feel free to take over the list Tiago. You contributed more to it than I have. If you want to start a threat at the Developmental forum, go for it. And thanks for all the advancements you've made to the deck already.
So after playing my current rendition of BW Pox I've been considering switching to a different version of the deck to try out. I would like to try out a pox deck that runs enlightened tutors and beseech the queens to fetch the locks that are specific to your match up or that you just need to complete your lock. I just slapped this list together really quick but I'm pretty excited about trying it out. Let me know what you think! I've switched back and forth with the swords being an innocent blood or path to exile. I can't decide if innocent blood which has no collateral damage to pox but lacks being able to target or the path/swords which target but go against the pox are better. I also can't decide if the tool box is too large and I should be running more of the most important things or if the tool box itself is a strength.
//Spells
2x Beseech the Queen
4x Duress
4x Enlightened Tutor
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Pox
3x Swords to Plowshares
4x Vindicate
//Enchantments
1x Desolation
1x Necrogen Mists
1x The Abyss
//Artifacts
2x Chimeric Idol
1x Crucible of Worlds
1x Ensnaring Bridge
1x Noetic Scales
1x Phyrexian Totem
1x Pithing Needle
1x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Sun Droplet
3x The Rack
//Lands
4x Scrubland
4x Godless Shrine
4x Marsh Flats
4x Swamp
2x Plains
2x Wasteland
I'm currently playing a Wasteland-less build, since I haven't encountered many matchups where it would have made a significant difference. It's nice to have, but it can also royally screw you over if you get it while in a disadvantageous board position, and it's somewhat useless against decks that rely on Vial. Instead, I'm playing a lot more creatures so that I can keep the pressure going against opponents. From my experience, getting 2-3 of less than ten creatures sworded, dismembered, pathed, etc. really hurts.
Wasteland-less Midrange Pox
14 Creatures
4 Bloodghast
4 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Nihilith
3 Tombstalker
1 Abyssal Persecutor
23 noncreature
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Innocent Blood
2 Dark Ritual
3 Pox
23 land
16 Swamp
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Shizo, Death's Storehouse
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
15 sideboard
3 Ravenous Trap
4 Mental Misstep
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Dark Ritual
3 Dismember
Matchup Results:
Vial Goblins: 8-8 (8-2 against non-Food Chain, aka the modern build)
I'd say Aether Vial is by far the most troublesome card for this deck, hence the mainboard Pithing Needles and 3 Inquisitions and 3 Dismembers in the side. That said, I think goblins is not too bad of a matchup, as long as you can slow down their early momentum.(their first 1-2 turns) Being able to get a turn 2 Smallpox on the play against a turn 1 Lackey makes a good day. Vampire Nighthawk is really good at picking off smaller goblins mid-game while minimizing or outright preventing damage from unblocked attacks. Most of the games I lost were against turn one vials or random Food Chain into Goblin Ringleader loops.
Merfolk: 0-2
Easily the hardest matchup I've played. Vial, and on top of that, they have Force of Will, Mental Misstep, and Daze. Daze seems quite strong against Pox, since the lord spamming forces Pox players to act fast and frequently tap out early. Vampire Nighthawk makes it slightly less bad. I'm thinking about putting in 2-3 Gatekeeper of Malakir in the sideboard for this and other midrange matchups.
Ad Nauseam: 4-2
Actually a pretty favorable matchup, even moreso postboard. At first I thought I had to worry about losing to early goldfishing, but Pox does have early answers, and Ravenous Trap can shut down combos off of Ill-Gotten Gains. Vampire Nighthawk also makes it more difficult for the opponent to kill you later on if they fail to kill you early. Furthermore, a well-timed Pox HURTS.
The Rock: 3-3
I'm not sure what to think of this matchup, since the opponent does have outs in the form of Dark Confidant, and they have just as much disruption, if not moreso. Tarmogoyf also gets pretty big in this matchup. Vampire Nighthawk was an MVP for my wins.
Show and Tell (several variants) - 3-6 (1-2 against Hive Mind, 2-4 against Dream Halls)
This is probably one of the few matchups where I'd actually like to have Wasteland. Playing the matchup is actually not hard, but the opponent still has a chance of randomly comboing off and killing you. Inquisitions and Mental Misstep on the right targets help. The good news is that Show and Tell into Emrakul doesn't scare this deck as much as it would others, thanks to all your sacrifice removal.
Matchups i still want to test:
Dredge
Landstill
Enchantress
Zoo
Countertop
Cards the deck is afraid of:
Aether Vial - instant-speed creature playing for no mana, and comes out on turn one. Seems to be Pox's worst nightmare, unless someone can think of something else.
Elspeth, Knight-Errant - Letting your opponent get a serious clock with evasion as well as a token generator is not good.
Daze - As the deck has a somewhat-high mana curve and is suicidal with its own lands, the deck is vulnerable to a well-timed Daze.
Show and Tell - not so much a counter against the deck as it is the ability to win out of nowhere even while on the verge of losing.
Im very interested in your build. Please share your experiences after you test it.Quote:
Originally Posted by lawlladin
Tokenmaster, have you considered Bitterblossom? Why Shizo? I rather have Smother than Dismember, might help your Junk/Merfolk matchup a little, since it hits any Fish, as well as Confidant, Goyf and Knight, and the life loss from dismember sometimes hits too hard (even if it helps vs faster decks).
All right, after all those MBC lists, this one seems closer to optimal. Much lower curve, with a lot of tutoring to find what we need, providing the flexibility the deck needed.
Trust me, the 8 tutor/top effects are great. And the low cost removal makes it easier to survive. BitterBlossom helps in defending, and is nice with Bridge. I also thought about switching 1 Innocent Blood and 2 Smother for IoK.Quote:
Main Deck:
4 Beseech the Queen
3 Bitterblossom
4 Dark Ritual
4 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
4 Necrogen Mists
1 Phyrexian Arena
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Smother
4 The Rack
1 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
15 Swamp
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Sideboard:
2 Damnation
3 Infest
4 Null Rod
2 Oppression
4 Pithing Needle
I am sorry about keep posting this kind of lists here, but the deck was 'born' here so...
Ill be creating a topic for it in developmental section, when i have time to test and write about matchup analysis.
Its hard to find a good monoblack control in Legacy, so i hope the thread gets some atention from players who are looking for this type of deck.
And now to put this thread back on tracks, my Pox list:
Pretty much a budget list, inspired on BowVamp's, which i think it should be the right approach. Ill probably get a couple Urborgs. I also thought about cards like Snuff Out and Dismember, but for now im running Disfigure and Innocent Blood for t1 removal.Quote:
Lands
20 Swamp
3 Mishra's Factory
Creatures
4 Tombstalker
2 Nihilith
2 Necroplasm
Spells
2 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Animate Dead
4 Smother
4 Smallpox
4 Disfigure
4 Pox
4 Hymn to Tourach
Sideboard
4 Ratchet Bomb
3 Duress
4 Pithing Needle
4 Leyline of The Void
Hi and thanks @Tiago for coming back to the topic. This should be about Pox decks and not MBC which is pretty different. More props to Tiago for playing Necroplasm, I had to look it up :-) What's your experience with this card.
I've recently changed my Pox build rather radically, cutting Mishras and Tombstalkers altogether, and focusing on Pox's main strength: Disruption. This is my acutal list:
17 Swamp
4 Wasteland
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Bloodghast
4 Nihilith
4 Innocent Blood
4 Geth's Verdict
4 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
Sideboard:
4 Extirpate
4 Pithing Needle
3 Reanimate
3 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Surgical Extraction
I really had doubts to cut Tombstalker (Pox's best win option so far) and Mishra (recurring beater and the best way to hold opposing Jaces in check), and by relying on two win conditions, I make myself quite vulnerable to Extirpate, but after testing the deck quite extensively and playing in two tournaments I'm quite happy with the changes.
Nihilith and pox effects are obviously a great synergy. Usually Nihilith hits the Battlefield after 2-3 turns as the rest of the deck focuses on binning you opponents permanents and lands. And with the triggered ability being a may ability, you can perfectly time its entering the battlefield (with haste!) to greatest effect.
The rest of the deck is pretty standard: 8 removal spells, 8 discard spells, 8 LD spells and 8 pox effects. I chose Duress as 1-Mana discard spell because there are so many ways to deal with creatures on the battlefield that it's not worth running Thoughtseize or Inquisition.
The sideboard runs a severe anti control/combo package with 5 extirpate effects (which you also need to fight Life from the Loam, your nightmare 2-mana-sorcery) and 3 Chains of Mephitopheles, as you won't need more removal than you got with the poxes. Reanimate shines against Knight/Crusher/Tarmogoyf or other undercosted threats. Needle is mainly agains Aether Vial which quite effectively hoses you.
I posted this because I'd like to remember that "pure" Pox lists are still competitive and also great fun to play (I just like games where you wont have more than 8 permanents on the table, overall). There's nothing than to crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and to hear their lamentation of "loosing to this crap mono black deck piloted by a noob lucksack".