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Yeah. You are right my bad. But the other one I provided also works. Probe draws Petal. Brainstorm draws Ponder 2x LED. You put back Tundra and Chant. Play LED's crack them for RRRBBB in Response to Ponder, drawing you Wish, which gives you the following spellcount for the whole Turn:
Petal, Ritual, Doomsday, Probe, Petal, Brainstorm, LED, LED, Ponder, BW, ToA. Also Tendrils for 22.
I have another one for you that works as well:
LED Probe LED BW Blank
Probe->LED, BS-> Probe LED BW putting back blank + BW. Cast double LED Probe->BW->ToA
Petal Ritual DD Probe LED Brainstorm LED Probe BW ToA = 10 storm.
thatīs one of the main reasons why this deck is plain awesomeQuote:
Originally Posted by Bahamuth
YES!!!! The hybrids are back!! I took this deck to a top 8 at my local tournament tonight and only lost after keeping a marginal 6 card hand ... I ran the blue gauntlet and feel this has the tools to beat literally anything thrown at it. After nemavera's success I decided to give the hybrids another try and ... damn, this list is SAVAGE. Here is a short report of what happened:
4 Duress
3 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Ponder
1 Meditate
1 Ad Nauseam
3 Infernal Tutor
2 Doomsday
1 Personal Tutor
1 Tendrils of Agony
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
1 Rain of Filth
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Scalded tarn
2 Underground Sea
3 Swamp
2 Island
3 Darkblast
2 Needle
2 Wipe Away
2 DD
1 SI
1 IGG
1 Echoing Truth
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Emrakul
Round 1 - Mono-U Infect (whienot)
g1 - Our decks shit on us but I have plenty of mana and discard ... I can't find top and eventually just EOT Meditate and get there next turn with DD and this pile: Meditate, Petal, Rit, Rit, Tendrils.
SB: -2 Ponder, -1 Personal Tutor, -1 DD, -1 Rain of Filth and +3 Darkblast, +2 Needle. (in hindsight I should have just boarded in Darkblast and Wipe Away, let him blow his wad on a single creature then bounce it ...)
g2 - He drops Needle on Top and its my only cantrip ..... FUCK. I have Darkblast and Needle on Inkmoth Nexus, stalemate. We play draw go for like 5 turns. Cantrip after cantrip misses and I eventually get so much mana I am able to cast AdN, get Flusterstormed, pay 4 mana, then reveal IT, LED, LED, Petal, Rit ... GG.
Round 2 - White Weenie
g1 - Turn 2 Meditate stack ..
SB: -1 AdN, -2 Chrome Mox and +1 IGG, +2 Wipe Away (assume Canonist)
g2 - I open LED, LED, Petal, Rit, IT, Brainstorm, Duress and draw Tendrils!!! For the sake of Canonist on turn 2 (she kept her opening 7) I assume its coming, but I'm not sure about Mindbreak Trap and I decide to say fuck it and go for it ... I never open turn 1s. Petal, BS hits a land and sticks Tendrils back in the deck and a quick check with Duress shows I'm safe while IGG loop takes it down.
Round 3 - Merfolk
g1 - He mulls to 6 and keeps a hand with Pierce, Force and some dudes. Turn 3 Duress clears force, I have Top in play and LED, LED, IT in hand ... simple Meditate stack VIA DD gets there.
SB: -2 Chrome Mox, -1 AdN, -2 IT and +2 DD +3 Darkblast
g2 - I Darkblast his t1 Cursecatcher and play around Spell Pierce waiting till turn 3 to try for Top. I am repeatedly hit by Mutavault but setup my hand with Top and on turn 5-6 check if its safe with Thoughtseize seeing Pierce, 2x Spell Snare, and Wasteland. Get rid of the Pierce and comfortably win with another Meditate stack.
It should be noted, this manabase is sick as fuck. The guy playing this is one of my buddies and after the match we were talking about playing 2 colors and how the basics just fucked him. He was slowrolling Wasteland both games but ... it didn't matter. I had enough mana each time to easily play through Pierce and Daze. I feel like this matchup g1 is really 50/50, just depends on the hands of both decks. But after boarding it is just awesome. Now, I am not 100% on the Darkblast yet, but, when we were talking, it filters Top, kills his early threats, and if necessary, I can play the pseudo control role and minimize damage while setting up my kill. I am not certain this is the correct call, but it never hurts to try these things out. Maybe Needle would be better naming Mutavault, not sure, further testing needs to be done but for now, I really like Darkblast.
Round 4 - UW Stoneforge
g1 - He concedes after he has a SB card in the main.
SB: -2 Chrome Mox, -2 IT, -1 AdN, -2 Ponder and +3 Darkblast, +2 DD, +2 Needle
g2 - I mull to 6 and keep a VERY marginal hand. I miss on cantrips twice and once he drops Stoneforge I am forced to go for the combo. Duress a turn earlier showed it was safe ... he Brainstorms into the Force ... eh, happens.
g3 - We both mull to 6 and he keeps a hand with a single Wasteland and Force + blue cards. I miss on every single cantrip and fumble around trying to assemble something. On like turn 6-7 I have so much acceleration its insane. With Meditate + Tendrils in hand I just fire it off and get there. Both our decks failed on us miserably .... I actually shuffled away Tendrils with Ponder then ripped it off the top ... my deck just fucked me a little less than his. Can't beat luck.
I haven't gone 4-0 in a while I easily make Top 8 in first position and my buddy who didn't drop but left to go drink early makes top 8. Really? Since he isn't there the next guy takes his spot. My friend was playing Enchantress ... I would fucking destroy him with ease ... but instead ....
Round 5 - 4c Counterbalance
g1 - I Duress turn 2 and see the coast is clear, now, this is before I activated Top and didn't know I had a Dark Rit. Turn 3 I go for AdN with DRit + Filth and he had topdecked Counterspell. Fuck me. I know he had Daze so I was setting up the turn 3 all along but ... nature of the god damn beast.
SB: -2 IT, -1 AdN, -2 Chrome Mox, -1 Ponder and +2 DD, +1 SI, +1 Emrakul, +2 Wipe Away
g2 - I mull to 6 and keep a hand of something like 4 lands, Top, Dark Rit. Should have gone to 5 but ... fuck it. Top gets KGripped on turn 3 and I am never even in the game. Luck simply decided this match. Not much I could do, mull to 5 is so random, I figured my 6 was decent. This is a matchup I should win easily 60ish% of the time since Emrakul just owns them. But its whatever, sometimes u just don't get there. We played another game afterward and I Thoughtseized t1 then cast DD the next turn ... this is how the match usually goes ... this result just fell in the 30ish% category.
Its all good though. I am so happy the Hybrids are viable again. This deck is seriously just the nuts. It is capable of running the gauntlet and has the tools to beat basically anything in the format. Now it should be noted, playing Ideas Unbound over Meditate would have lost me almost every game againt a blue deck. After board when I turn into DDFT, Meditate wins fucking games. That simple. This list plays through Spell Snare I ran into it MULTIPLE TIMES. I never once had a spell countered by it. I keep a single IT in for threat density or to double up rituals or something but ... after board I have no weakness to the card and everyone is running them.
Also, playing 2 colors and fetching basics was that good. Against all the idiots playing Stoneforge BS its just great. Now, I won't say playing 2 colors is the best thing right now, but by doing so u nullify Spell Snare entirely and ignore Wasteland. That is unbelievably solid.
I've always felt that meditate, despite its cost (well not really because sometimes finding double blue is bizarre in my list) is better simply because of the fact that it gets around snare, which everyone in the world ought be playing right now because of SFM and Snapcaster.
On another note, I think that if one does run white (like nev) for 7 silence effects than playing IU is totally fine seeing as, well, if any of them resolve the game is over. Spell snare is pretty useless after you've been silenced.
I'm going to continue to be stubborn and play with a trop and a bayou in my 60 for swarms. If not strictly for the fact that I love seeing them attacking for 0.. I just.. I don't know, emotional attachment. But I'm still sticking with 4 IT 4 DD in my list. Perhaps, I'll cut a DD, Filth, and CoV for 2 petals and an Ad Naus and see what happens, but I really hate that card.
As do I. AdN is random in nature and DD is a calculated route to assured victory. BUT, sometimes ur hand gets ripped to shreds and u have no outs. Whats so great about the hybrids is that they are capable of attacking from numerous different angles.
Now, I absolutely hate ANT and think Ari's list with GTutor is a total joke. I have never once successfully tested that deck. And to this day, I don't understand how he wins, the deck is so bad its almost comical. Playing a 3cc Tutor that costs 3 life and $150+ and doesn't win the game that turn ... really?
But, we don't need another TES/AdN/DDFT depate. Point is, this list is solid as hell. Playing Chants is fine, but 7x+ Duress effects is almost always better. Sometimes Chant is that good, no lies, but I still view it as Past in Flames, in certain situations it is broken as hell, but Duress/Thoughtseize is always good.
I think the most important thing though is Ideas Unbound. Every blue deck I played tonight ran SS. This is the reason I don't run Burning Wish in DD is that they are all prepared for it and run SS + Blue Blast on occassion. This list avoids SS entirely, which most decks board in ... u don't care. That is a damn feat in itself.
I'm just getting into DD, and eventually I'll be reading the whole thread. However, I do have a few preliminary questions about the deck, if nobody minds.
1) When does this deck typically goldfish? Is turn three a reasonable starting point, or should I be aiming for turn two?
2) Is there agreement over whether Meditate or Ideas Unbound is the better card for building piles? It seems to me that IU requires one less mana to get started, but perhaps there's more to it that that. Does the answer change depending on whether you are running IT or BW?
3) Is there general agreement about how many colours the deck should run? The four colour version I'm testing seems vulnerable to wasteland, and getting the exact color requirements seems a difficult if I want to go off with protection.
Usually, you simply go off, the turn before your opponent kills you. Turn 3 is reasonable, when goldfishing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Requiem
Ideas Unbound enables cheaper piles, that usually create the same amount or a higher amount of storm than Meditate. You run Meditate, when you are afraid of losing to Spell Snare.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Requiem
What Version are you running? If you get used to playing this deck, you usually don't lose to Wastelands. Even in the 10 Fetchland, 6 Duals, 1 Basic Island version, I didn't lose to Wastelands.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Requiem
Most lists should be able to fish on turn 3 quite consistently. Probe/IU lists are a little faster because you don't need a LED to win.
The main reason to run IU is the fact that it enables double cantrip piles, whereas Meditate can't usually do that. Example:
SDT in play, Probe in hand. Cast DD, building:
LED
IU
LED
LED
Burning Wish
Probe for LED, cast/sac LED for UUU, tap SDT for IU, cast IU (U) drawing SDT LED LED, cast SDT (0), cast 2x LED, sac LEDs for RRRBBB, tap SDT for Wish, Wish for ToA.
This pile enables you to win for 0 mana post DD. If you don't have SDT, but for example double Probe, the pile costs 1.
I think your choices are either to run with IU/Chant or with Meditate/Duress because of the prevalence of Spell Snare.
Is there any reason to be running the Emakrul/Shelldock/Faerie MD right now? I always thought the versatility of Doomsday came from being able to just resolve it with no set up and end the game on the following turn. That pile seems really good with IU and Probe fwiw.
The Shelldock/Emrakul pile deals with counterbalance really well because there's nothing to counter post doomsday. For some reason there's not as much counterbalance running around as expected, so Shelldock/Emrakul may not be the best choice right now.
Hello,
This is my first post on The Source, and sorry if my English is not very good.
First time, congratulations to Nemavera for his performance in Amsterdam !!!!!!!!!!
I am a player of Ant and TES deck. And I try to play "DD Fetchland Tendrils" for 3 weeks.
Congratulations on the list of Nemavera, it is great to play, really nice and balanced.
There are just two things that I have not fully understood on this list:
- Why not take a "Tendrills of Agony" maindeck ? Because sometimes you do not have enough mana to go look in the side with BW ?
- The second point I would like to know what you change when you get the plan Emrakul ? Which cards enter (Emrakul, sheldock, Others?) And what cards come out of MD ?
Again congratulations for performance.
Tendrils in the maindeck in a burning wish shell is usually just a dead slot/draw. While burning wish is almost always good sans when you draw multiples or something but he only runs 3 BW so the chances are slightly less. Only reason to run tendrils MD is to avoid surgical extraction/extirpate/GY hate in case they discard your tendrils or something.
I think Bahamuth is right in that you either run with all chant effects and IU right now or you run discard spells + meditate. Chant effects are king at resolving IU while duress and seize are good at getting counterbalance out of there pre emptively so you don't have to deal with that annoying lock.
Shelldock emrakul is also good against reanimator IMO; that MU is difficult for me without shelldock because usually they just jin you out but if you go turn 1 DD it's hard to lose unless they angel of despair/terastodon your shelldock.
As already been answered, the deck wins when it has to, but turn 3 is completely reasonable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Requiem
The great Med/IU debate is scattered over the last million pages, on the storm board, its everywhere - You'll see plenty of people arguing over either or but its really up to you as to which one you want to play. I play meditate as a preference as its what I 'grew up on' and it dodges snare which is everywhere in my life right now.
Regarding colors it comes down to something that has also been extensively discussed - do you want to play chant (only reason to play white), do you want to play burning wish, pulverize, and now EtW (reasons for red), or do you want to play Swarm and Carpet of Flowers (Green) - I happen to play UBg with 7 discard spells, no chants, and a full set of swarms in the board but, like everyone will tell you - the greatest thing about this deck is while the shell is there, how you want to play, and how it will treat you is up to you and the deck.
best of luck
I've never really played DD outside of Vintage, but have you seen the new Laboratory Maniac DD deck in said format? Instead of Emrakul why not just win? If my question is noobish then ignore it, but it seems you don't even have to worry about removal game 2.
There have been a few debates on this already, but let me ask you: What do you think the merits are of playing Laboratory Maniac over Emrakul?
Mainly you don't have to wait a turn and you're not depending on attacking at all. You just set up a pile that draws the whole thing and allows you to play maniac. I just think that's more reliable than having to pass or attack. Just an idea.
Emrakul has this little thing that says it can't be countered. These two wins aren't even comparable.Quote:
Originally Posted by End3r000
Thank you for the answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Ritual
After testing it is true that BW did not fail.
I was just wondering if this does not have an opportunity to "stack" or wins.
Otherwise I think the game is really fun to play.
I do not master yet quite the game Emrakul / SI, but it will come by doing.
While it's true I forgot that SDI casts Emrakul netting you the extra turn, it doesn't always result in a win. You're depending on the fact that you connect and for that matter that you even swing. It was just an idea considering Laboratory Maniac can be an instant win. This is also probably more effective in Vintage where removal is less played.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahamuth