[Deck] Merfolk

To Scrumdogg:
Sweet, Ive always loved Grimoire Thief but I have no way to use her as of yet... if you have positive results, please share them

On the other hand, heres is my version:

12x Island
4x Rishadan Port
3x Flooden Strand
1x Minamo, School at Water's Edge

4x Cursecatcher
4x Lord Of Atlantis
4x Silvergill Adept
4x Merrow Reejerey
3x Tidal Warrior
3x Saprazzan Heir
2x Wake Thrasher
2x Cold-Eyed Selkie

4x AEther Vial
4x Force of Will
3x Daze
3x Counterbalance
3x Sensei's Divining Top

SB:
3x Relic of Progenitus
3x Hydroblast
3x Stifle
2x Propaganda
2x Back to Basic
2x Seasinger

I know my build looks different and wierd.

Counter-Top engine has given the deck more control. I am enjoying it so far. Since I dont have any shuffle effects, I added 3 Fetchlands to fix this.

Since I dont run manlands, I didnt run Standstill (I think its not going to work). Instead, Im running Saprazzan Heir as a Standstill proxy. Shes a conditional beater that makes my opponent double think. Although Im still in the middle of playtesting this.

I know theres a lot of hate on Tidal Warrior but i find him helpful. Early game, he can screw my opponent's land and on Late game, he could be used as a way to make merfolks unblockables (with the help of Lord of Atlantis).

Some of the changes Ive done is there because my meta is more of rouge/unproven decks (dragon stompy really gets pwned in my meta). I know some changes, although helpful for me, can still be wierd-sounding. If any of you want to add a couple of things, feel free to add.

Thanks

Quote:

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Originally Posted by from Cairo

Does Eva Green usually run Deed SB? I was thinking it would have Engineered Plague.

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They generally do, but sometimes they do have Deeds (my version does), which is by far a bigger threat than Plague. And The Rock generally has Deeds.

Hey guys,
Just curious - how many Fish players are running the counterbalance soft lock these days? Half? A small minority?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7

Hey guys,
Just curious - how many Fish players are running the counterbalance soft lock these days? Half? A small minority?

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for sure, not Merfolk.

Well there is one guy in my meta who runs it and a couple who do not. I was just unsure about Merfolk players as a whole, as I am unfamiliar with Legacy on a global scale.

I just split in the top 4 with merfolk at the dreamwizards legacy tournament on sunday.

Here is the list i was running:

4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Wake Thrasher
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey

4 Standstill
4 Aether Vial
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Relic of Progenitus

4 Mutavault
4 Wasteland
13 Island

Sideboard:
4 Spell Snare
3 Back to Basics
3 Hydroblast
2 Seasinger
3 Umezawa's Jitte


The deck worked perfectly all day. Never lost a game. Won matches against Team America, a Merfolk mirror, a CounterTop build (which was tuned specifically to beat merfolk :tongue: ), and another CounterTop deck in the top 8.

But now for more discussion:

Tidal Warrior:
I don't like warrior in this deck at all. The deck doesn't need any more one drops after vial and cursecatcher, both of which are infinitely better for you on turn one. I also dont like that its incredibly weak, and doesnt give you any benefit in combat. Vanilla 1/1's are not what this deck needs when its on the offensive.

Secondly, with the surge in popularity of Merfolk, the mirror match is very important. Tidal warrior is just plain trash in the mirror. Also, against anything with islands in it anyway, it becomes much weaker, and only serves the purpose of occasionally cutting off a splash color, while slowing you down considerably, something that is counterproductive to your gameplan.

Sapprazan Heir:
Really? Another 1/1 body is not what this deck wants in its two drops. Combine this with the fact that most of the time anyone blocks the creatures in this deck, theyre blocking your lords to try to kill them and shrink your dudes, this guy will never draw cards for you. Combine this with the fact that, if youre playing against anything with blue in it, 75% of the time, they'll either have nothing to block with, or wont even be ABLE to block at all due to islandwalk. She's trash.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tyleredw

I just split in the top 4 with merfolk at the dreamwizards legacy tournament on sunday.

Here is the list i was running:

4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Wake Thrasher
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey

4 Standstill
4 Aether Vial
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Relic of Progenitus

4 Mutavault
4 Wasteland
13 Island

Sideboard:
4 Spell Snare
3 Back to Basics
3 Hydroblast
2 Seasinger
3 Umezawa's Jitte


The deck worked perfectly all day. Never lost a game. Won matches against Team America, a Merfolk mirror, a CounterTop build (which was tuned specifically to beat merfolk :tongue: ), and another CounterTop deck in the top 8.

But now for more discussion:

Tidal Warrior:
I don't like warrior in this deck at all. The deck doesn't need any more one drops after vial and cursecatcher, both of which are infinitely better for you on turn one. I also dont like that its incredibly weak, and doesnt give you any benefit in combat. Vanilla 1/1's are not what this deck needs when its on the offensive.

Secondly, with the surge in popularity of Merfolk, the mirror match is very important. Tidal warrior is just plain trash in the mirror. Also, against anything with islands in it anyway, it becomes much weaker, and only serves the purpose of occasionally cutting off a splash color, while slowing you down considerably, something that is counterproductive to your gameplan.

Sapprazan Heir:
Really? Another 1/1 body is not what this deck wants in its two drops. Combine this with the fact that most of the time anyone blocks the creatures in this deck, theyre blocking your lords to try to kill them and shrink your dudes, this guy will never draw cards for you. Combine this with the fact that, if youre playing against anything with blue in it, 75% of the time, they'll either have nothing to block with, or wont even be ABLE to block at all due to islandwalk. She's trash.

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Congratz! Your build looks solid, no experiments, straightforward (except Seasinger SB). Good to see a build that has not 10 slots wasted to 2-tier cards. However, your matchups were slightly favorable since you played U opponents all day ;) (However I do not say that it is an easy win)

I think its humorous that of all the creatures they have discussed with the new M10 changes, Wake Thrasher gets the biggest boost. No more mana burn? How awesome for that card.

Why do people keep saying that Wake Thrasher is suddenly good now that mana burn is gone? Was Wake Thrasher not good before mana burn? Does mana burn prevent you from tapping unused lands to pump up Wake Thrasher? Please enlighten me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shawon

Why do people keep saying that Wake Thrasher is suddenly good now that mana burn is gone? Was Wake Thrasher not good before mana burn? Does mana burn prevent you from tapping unused lands to pump up Wake Thrasher? Please enlighten me.

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People arent saying its good now, as if they were implying it was bad before. Theyre saying it gets slightly BETTER.

There are times where it was worth it to at the end of your opponents turn, tap your untapped lands, and mana burn for 2-3 just to make thrasher bigger during your turn. With the new rules coming into effect, thrasher gets a little better, since you can tap all your lands at EOT to make him huge with zero penalty from life loss.

In my opinion it's hardly relevant, since the times you would usually mana burn to whack harder are usually when youre going for a kill at the end, in which case, at least the times i do it, i never even care about the life loss in the first place, cause you win right now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nekrataal

Congratz! Your build looks solid, no experiments, straightforward (except Seasinger SB). Good to see a build that has not 10 slots wasted to 2-tier cards. However, your matchups were slightly favorable since you played U opponents all day ;) (However I do not say that it is an easy win)

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The seasinger's were actually amazing in the mirror. Stealing opposing reejereys is such a huge tempo advantage.

The real MVPs of the day were back to basics and spell snare in the board. I'm officially sold on having 4x Spell Snare boarded. Team America and the 5-color CounterTop that i played in the top 8 practically just fold to it. Not to mention the synergy between reejerey and back to basics, being able to tap down their lands every time you cast a merfolk, once it sticks, its usually gg.

Quote:

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People arent saying its good now, as if they were implying it was bad before. Theyre saying it gets slightly BETTER.

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I also agree it's not really relevant. I don't just understand why people are randomly posting "OOOOMMMGGG WAKE THRASSSHER CAN THRASSSH NOW WITH NO MAANAA BURN<<< ME JIZZZ IN MY PANTSS!!!"

We get it, Wake Thrasher is better with no mana burn. No need to make inane random one-liner posts on how it got better with mana burn gone.

[/rant]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shawon

I also agree it's not really relevant. I don't just understand why people are randomly posting "OOOOMMMGGG WAKE THRASSSHER CAN THRASSSH NOW WITH NO MAANAA BURN<<< ME JIZZZ IN MY PANTSS!!!"

We get it, Wake Thrasher is better with no mana burn. No need to make inane random one-liner posts on how it got better with mana burn gone.
[/rant]

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Yeah, it shouldn't really warrent any more discussion. It is what it is.

However, my main debatable point for the deck now, is the viability of spell snare in the main deck. I noticed on sunday, that i believe i sided it in every game, as it was always useful. However, my main issue was with what to side out for it.

A lot of the time, since i play 4x wake thrashers, i would take out a few just for the sake of them being redundant. Also they came out against thresh w/ red, since i feared getting them fire/ice'd to death.

Another card that came out a few times was daze. Especially on the draw game two, when theyre a land ahead of you, and can almost always pay it. Daze shined for me mostly for forcing through the early vial, which makes in invaluable game one, and i would never want to get rid of them completely.

I think i may try my exact build, except for the following changes in the maindeck:

-1 Wake Thrasher
-1 Daze
-1 _______ (not quite sure yet)

+3 Spell Snare

The only issue i see now, is that spell snare is better game two, as on the play, theyll be about to cast their two drop when you have one land, and its perfect, especially in conjunction with daze back up. It also has pretty good surprise value, as most people didnt expect spell snares coming out of the board.

My problem: I know i want them somewhere in the 75 cards, but I've yet to decide their best place

That's it. Wake thrasher gets slightly better, I can't get why that list plays 4 copies of that. Also, I think that Back to Basics is not optimally in Merfolks, but maybe that's a meta call, plenty of nonbasic lands. I suppose nowadays people have suffered such nonbasic hate (wastelands, moon effects, indeed b2b) that most decks play basic lands.

On the other hand, I like Relic of Progenitus on Main deck, free space on sideboard for Blasts, Threads (maybe I would replace them for Mind Harness/Seasinger)

It's silly in hindsight, but I used to be a huge fan of Spell Snare in Merfolk and I thought Stifle was awful and I'm not so hot on Spell Snare. Now, I'm in love with Stifle. Spell Snare is a good card, but you don't really have the space for it and you don't really need it MD. It's too reactive for MD. SB is okay, though.

Perhaps you should just consider the matchups in terms of knowing when to switch up Spell Snare and Daze. In any game, where you're on the draw, you risk too much tempo loss when you play Daze, whereas, Spell Snare is the nutz on turn 1 on the draw.

So, one general guideline is as follows:

On the play:

Keep Daze in.

On the draw:

Switch out Daze for Spell Snare.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by johanessen

That's it. Wake thrasher gets slightly better, I can't get why that list plays 4 copies of that. Also, I think that Back to Basics is not optimally in Merfolks, but maybe that's a meta call, plenty of nonbasic lands. I suppose nowadays people have suffered such nonbasic hate (wastelands, moon effects, indeed b2b) that most decks play basic lands.

On the other hand, I like Relic of Progenitus on Main deck, free space on sideboard for Blasts, Threads (maybe I would replace them for Mind Harness/Seasinger)

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I play 4 in the maindeck currently because they fit the gameplan of the deck. Game 1, most of the time your job is to beat hard and fast (hopefully islandwalking) before your opponent can even set up their game plan while distrupting them with daze, force of will, and standstill. Wake thrashers provide huge threats that need to be dealt with, and can win the game instantly. I was never disappointed when i drew them. Even when i casually played against zoo that day on the side, i drew two of them, and they raced 3 creatures on my opponents side by themselves.

Game 2 and 3, theyre also useful, as this is the time in which many decks side in their sweepers, such as pyroclasms, firespouts, volcanic fallout, wrath, etc. After a sweeper, a lot of times you're back to square one, dropping down only one or two creatures. If wake thrasher is your only creature on the board, he can go the distance without any assistance from lords/reejereys. This can't be said for most of the other creatures in the deck. Worst case scenario, they were a good spot in the maindeck to get sided out, which is sometimes hard in a decklist so tight.

But as you could see from my earlier post, I am contemplating taking one out, as 3 might be the optimal number. But by no means is it awful as a 4-of.

Everyone doesn't have to play 4 in their build, but it seems to work out for me quite well so far.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shawon

Perhaps you should just consider the matchups in terms of knowing when to switch up Spell Snare and Daze. In any game, where you're on the draw, you risk too much tempo loss when you play Daze, whereas, Spell Snare is the nutz on turn 1 on the draw.

So, one general guideline is as follows:

On the play:

Keep Daze in.

On the draw:

Switch out Daze for Spell Snare.

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Thats what I ended up doing a lot of the time, especially against CounterTop, where they slowroll enough to the point where daze becomes almost irrelevant. The sideboard may end up being their permanant home.

I used to run stifle, but cut it in attempt to just dump the whole mana denial aspect. Game one, I want to be tapping out to drop dudes all day, and smashing face, rather than worry that much about what my opponent is doing. Granted you dont want to overextend and get wrecked by a big sweeper and not be able to recover, but I feel as if the deck preforms better trying to be the aggressor game one, rather than slowing itself down with stifle and tidal warrior, and the like.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tyleredw

I play 4 in the maindeck currently because they fit the gameplan of the deck. Game 1, most of the time your job is to beat hard and fast (hopefully islandwalking) before your opponent can even set up their game plan while distrupting them with daze, force of will, and standstill. Wake thrashers provide huge threats that need to be dealt with, and can win the game instantly. I was never disappointed when i drew them. Even when i casually played against zoo that day on the side, i drew two of them, and they raced 3 creatures on my opponents side by themselves.

Game 2 and 3, theyre also useful, as this is the time in which many decks side in their sweepers, such as pyroclasms, firespouts, volcanic fallout, wrath, etc. After a sweeper, a lot of times you're back to square one, dropping down only one or two creatures. If wake thrasher is your only creature on the board, he can go the distance without any assistance from lords/reejereys. This can't be said for most of the other creatures in the deck. Worst case scenario, they were a good spot in the maindeck to get sided out, which is sometimes hard in a decklist so tight.

But as you could see from my earlier post, I am contemplating taking one out, as 3 might be the optimal number. But by no means is it awful as a 4-of.

Everyone doesn't have to play 4 in their build, but it seems to work out for me quite well so far.




Thats what I ended up doing a lot of the time, especially against CounterTop, where they slowroll enough to the point where daze becomes almost irrelevant. The sideboard may end up being their permanant home.

I used to run stifle, but cut it in attempt to just dump the whole mana denial aspect. Game one, I want to be tapping out to drop dudes all day, and smashing face, rather than worry that much about what my opponent is doing. Granted you dont want to overextend and get wrecked by a big sweeper and not be able to recover, but I feel as if the deck preforms better trying to be the aggressor game one, rather than slowing itself down with stifle and tidal warrior, and the like.

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I strongly disagree with your position on where to take Merfolk. Merfolk is a deck with little to no late game, or even a midgame, that is why we have the disruption we do, to keep the other guy from doing what they do. I used to be of the camp that hated Stifle, not seeing why it would be used in the deck, then I tried a playset of them, and fell in love. Stifles and Wastelands keep the other guy off balance. You said that you had problems using Daze against ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh decks, well that might be because you dont have Stifles and Wastelands to slow them down and force them to play into your Dazes, Cursecatchers, and Force of Wills.

Also, Wake Thrasher is kind of slow, the turn he comes down he is useless, and after that he is a house. I would never run more than 2, let alone a full palyset. Those Wake Thrashers are powerful, but three mana in a deck with 19 lands, 4 of them Wastelands, is a lot.

For reference here is my list:

Creatures-18
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
2 Wake Thrasher

Instants-11
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Echoing Truth

Artifacts-4
4 Æther Vial

Enchantments-4
4 Standstill

Lands-19
4 Wasteland
3 Mutavault
12 Island

Sideboard
2 Mind Harness
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Relic of Progenitus
4 Hydroblast
4 Submerge

Quote:

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Originally Posted by lorddotm

I strongly disagree with your position on where to take Merfolk. Merfolk is a deck with little to no late game, or even a midgame, that is why we have the disruption we do, to keep the other guy from doing what they do. I used to be of the camp that hated Stifle, not seeing why it would be used in the deck, then I tried a playset of them, and fell in love. Stifles and Wastelands keep the other guy off balance. You said that you had problems using Daze against ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh decks, well that might be because you dont have Stifles and Wastelands to slow them down and force them to play into your Dazes, Cursecatchers, and Force of Wills.

Also, Wake Thrasher is kind of slow, the turn he comes down he is useless, and after that he is a house. I would never run more than 2, let alone a full palyset. Those Wake Thrashers are powerful, but three mana in a deck with 19 lands, 4 of them Wastelands, is a lot.

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I don't hate stifle, and i used to have 3-4 in my maindeck for months. And the fact that the deck has very little late and midgame is exactly the reason why i cut it. If you're devoting your entire strategy to the early game, you want to play with the same philosophy as an aggro deck. Lay down creatures and beat. Keeping one mana open for stifle is counterproductive. This is the same logic that makes the deck run daze and force of will, it cant afford to keep its mana open to counter things game one, cause it wants to use all its lands.

Also, I'm not sure where you got that i had trouble playing daze against Thresh. I never said that at all :eyebrow:

I do agree with you though that wake thrasher is expensive. I can see where playing many copies in a deck with 19 lands would be difficult. However, my list further up the page plays 21 lands, and can support him a little better. My main enjoyment from him comes from the fact that as soon as you drop him, they have to change their gameplan to deal with it, since when he hits, he hits hard. Go ahead, waste your bolt or fire/ice on him, and not on my 8 lords. At least in my experiance, the 3cc of thrasher is worth it.

I'm not trying to completely dismiss your points by any means. They're good points. Your meta may be a lot different than mine. However, 0x Stifle and 3-4x Thrasher shines over here.

I think the fact that Spell Snare and Stifle fulfill the same role in part is important in this discussion. They really do very similar things for this deck, but against different opponents in a lot of cases. They are both good to be sure, and I wish we could run them both. For me, Stifle seems to do the job against a wider array of the tough matchups so I am keeping them.

Tyler, I like what you have to say. But seeing as how you did not lose even one game in the tournament, perhaps you have got overkill - and could stand to broaden the scope of your build. That is - if the meta shifts to counter your Merfolk strategy better.

In particular, for game 2, you could actually go:

-1 Wakethrasher
-2 lands
+3 Spell Snare (or Stifle, depending on how you do this)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tyleredw

I used to run stifle, but cut it in attempt to just dump the whole mana denial aspect. Game one, I want to be tapping out to drop dudes all day, and smashing face, rather than worry that much about what my opponent is doing. Granted you dont want to overextend and get wrecked by a big sweeper and not be able to recover, but I feel as if the deck preforms better trying to be the aggressor game one, rather than slowing itself down with stifle and tidal warrior, and the like.

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If you're dropping the mana denial aspect, you ought to think about wasteland as well. If you do, consider a non-basic replacement perhaps? Obviously you could strengthen your standstill aspect with something like Mishra's Factory. You could also try out some acceleration. I know ancient tomb is horrible for LOA, but it does power out reejerey and thrasher. Mind you, I'm not sold on these ideas, just throwing out some suggestions.

Tivadar, I think I would keep Wasteland in this deck no matter what. Of course, I think abandoning the mana denial aspect is just crazy too.

Also, OP updated. I think eventually it will be decent.