[Primer/Deck] Pox

I took a list for a spin last night, went 1-2. Mostly won round 1 due to bad hands from Reanimator Depths, then lost to 4c Control and DnT 0-2. DnT I beat in an extra game, but effectively lost each round due to not being able to wipe out Vials or Shamans. Boards of like, landing a Crucible just after a Shaman hit, then more shamans and a Leovold joining the party, not being able to cleanly get through Strix to get walkers, or being locked out by Sanctum Prelate on 2. I think 2x Ratchet Bombs are definitely necessary. I liked the Tombstalkers definitely, and might consider the other Delve demon as extra removal.

I did bring in a Culling Scales that would have cleaned up the 4C game and had it wipe out DnT's board to seal that game.

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Originally Posted by ParkerLewis

I'm interested in the stock list :) Is it the one from http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=16098&d=299201&f=LE ?



If you can also suggest a starting list, I'm all ears. Would that be the one you shared just a few posts before ?

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My list isn't stock by any means, but it has been testing very, very well (and yes it's the one I posted a few posts above.) Collective Brutality is the stone-cold nuts for pox, no doubt. Bitterblossom solves one of Pox's biggest problems: doing nothing for multiple turns in a row once the game is in a depressed state. BB just keeps on churning out tokens. It's cheap cost of only two mana lets you Dark Ritual > Discard > Bitterblossom t1. That is almost as good as t1 Liliana.

Contamination is a sideboard option I'm trying out, attempting to use it as a quasi-blood moon. So far I haven't wanted to board it in. Ironically, I went to BB because of Contamination, but now I think contamination isn't good enough lol.

EDIT: I am thinking that Tombstalker would actually be better than Nether Spirit. I am testing it out. It's a faster clock and there is literally no need for the graveyard beyond lands for Crucible.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

My list isn't stock by any means, but it has been testing very, very well (and yes it's the one I posted a few posts above.) Collective Brutality is the stone-cold nuts for pox, no doubt. Bitterblossom solves one of Pox's biggest problems: doing nothing for multiple turns in a row once the game is in a depressed state. BB just keeps on churning out tokens. It's cheap cost of only two mana lets you Dark Ritual > Discard > Bitterblossom t1. That is almost as good as t1 Liliana.

Contamination is a sideboard option I'm trying out, attempting to use it as a quasi-blood moon. So far I haven't wanted to board it in. Ironically, I went to BB because of Contamination, but now I think contamination isn't good enough lol.

EDIT: I am thinking that Tombstalker would actually be better than Nether Spirit. I am testing it out. It's a faster clock and there is literally no need for the graveyard beyond lands for Crucible.

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Tomby is in my sideboard for faster win cons in the games that they're desperately needed. I've found that Pox should be tuned to win in the areas where the enemy's chances are low. 3 turn combo decks usually can't win by turn 10. 15 turn control decks usually can't win on turn 5. I try to tune my win conditions and power output based on an opponent's 'weak turns'. For midrange, I either go super long (Nether Spirit) or super short (Tombstalker / Phyrexian Totem). Playing on your terms instead of theirs is the way to go.

My meta seems to be a lot more flush with creature mid range decks (Grixis Delver, DnT, Elves, 4C Leovold/DRS/Snapcaster, partially UR Delver) than any sort of combo or dedicated control (SnT, ANT, Burn, Lands).

Would it make more sense to tune Pox towards creature wipes, sac effects, and hand denial than mana denial? Basically if I should cut back on Sinkholes and increase Innocent Blood/Hymns/Scrolls and add main board Deluges/The Abyss.

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Originally Posted by Claymore

My meta seems to be a lot more flush with creature mid range decks (Grixis Delver, DnT, Elves, 4C Leovold/DRS/Snapcaster, partially UR Delver) than any sort of combo or dedicated control (SnT, ANT, Burn, Lands).

Would it make more sense to tune Pox towards creature wipes, sac effects, and hand denial than mana denial? Basically if I should cut back on Sinkholes and increase Innocent Blood/Hymns/Scrolls and add main board Deluges/The Abyss.

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My metagame is very 'fair' as well. Mana denial isn't really a good option, considering Sinkhole is THE mana denial card and it isn't very good right now. Topdecked Shamans get them out of it while also providing a decent threat against Pox (because we're slow.) Wasteland is enough to give you tempo and Smallpox/Hymn to Tourach at BB is so much better. I already said it earlier in the thread, but Collective Brutality is the stone cold nuts. Duress + kill delver/drs/all of D&T's dudes is so good. The life drain/gain is almost always worth a spare land/dark ritual/thoughtseize in hand in the late game too. I would play 4x Collective Brutality before I played 1 Sinkhole right now.

If you want to go mana denial I would check out the w/b version (Vaka Pox) because it uses 4x Vindicate, upping your land destruction count to a whopping 16+ (sinkhole, wasteland, vindicate, smallpox, pox.)

TL;DR - Maindeck Collective Brutality and Ratchet Bomb.

It is funny. I am going to test Squee and vengeful pharaoh next Tuesday, however I am more uncertain how good the cabal therapies are in main deck.
If they shouldn't be in main, I don't see they should be in the sideboard.

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

It is funny. I am going to test Squee and vengeful pharaoh next Tuesday, however I am more uncertain how good the cabal therapies are in main deck.
If they shouldn't be in main, I don't see they should be in the sideboard.

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If you don't know what is in their hand, the trick is name the card that beats you. I think Cabal Therapy is severely underplayed, across all of legacy not just pox, because people don't know how to play it.

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Originally Posted by jredelstein

If you don't know what is in their hand, the trick is name the card that beats you. I think Cabal Therapy is severely underplayed, across all of legacy not just pox, because people don't know how to play it.

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+1

I totally agree. At the very least its a Gitaxian Probe for B. There's a reason why Storm plays it over Thoughtseize, and its not because of the lifeloss (well, at least not totally.) If they have Probe it becomes a sure-shot. If they don't have probe, they just name the cards they care about and it does the same thing as Duress/Thoughtseize whether they have it or not. Dependant on matchups of course, but the most popular cards I name are Jace tMS and Brainstorm (tapped out in BS's case of course, lol.)

Blind I would probably name DRS, daze or SFM, depending on my hand.

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Originally Posted by jredelstein

If you don't know what is in their hand, the trick is name the card that beats you. I think Cabal Therapy is severely underplayed, across all of legacy not just pox, because people don't know how to play it.

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I usually name Force of Will, so that I can resolve my next spell...

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Originally Posted by streetMage

I usually name Force of Will, so that I can resolve my next spell...

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I'm happy to have my Cabal Therapy Force-d all day long. Its not every day someone throws an extra Hymn at you for only B. It's for this reason I almost never name Force of Will (well, that may be an exaggeration, lol.) I'm guessing 99/100 games most Force decks will side them out after g1, and g1 they aren't good. I name what beats me if it resolves, or if they force it I'm happy to take that trade.

Edit: changed above line so I don't sound stupid...

Yeah I always board out FOW against Pox as well, with most regular blue decks. Don't want to 2-for-1 myself.


If I really don't have enough cards to bring in, I may keep 2 FOW in at most to randomly tag a Liliana or so.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

I name what beats me, then if they Force it, I'm happy to take that trade.

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didn't the spell already resolve if you named the card?

Correct.

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Originally Posted by non-inflammable

didn't the spell already resolve if you named the card?

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Yes, I'm just saying if it resolves I don't name Force of Will. I'll (almost) always name the card that beats me. Sorry if I sounded noob-ish (which I am, lol) and unclear.

I'm going to finally try 2 Therapies with 4 Bloodghast/1 Nether Spirit. I'm skeptical but hoping to get enough value out of it to justify cutting Inquisitions, as I highly value having consistent turn 1 discard. Unlike in Storm, missing on blind therapy is not something we can afford, IMO.

It's been up and down for me lately: 3-0, 0-3, 3-0-1, 0-2 drop. The list has varied a little each time but this is where I'm at:

4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Collective Brutality
4 Bloodghast

3 Inquisition of Kozilek/Cabal Therapy
3 Toxic Deluge
3 The Rack

2 Fatal Push

1 Nether Spirit

3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
14 Swamp


SB:

4 Leyline of the Void (on thin ice)
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Sphere of Resistance
2 Null Rod
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Gate to Phyrexia/5th piece of gy hate

I've been playing without any answers to chalice (besides Lili)/pithing needle without much trouble, but might try Gate to Phyrexia since I have more creatures now. Ratchet Bomb doesn't jive with my list too well right now, and I haven't missed it too badly. Bitterblossom would be nice but I've been off it after too many suicides/late arrivals.

Chalice mostly hurt your discard, but that is not a big deal since those are not critical (unlike stuff like win cons or liliana). Therefore it isn't answers you need. Simply put it is, with your deck, better to play around it.

Also you will probably like more stuff to discard to collective brutality. I recommend cutting to three to lessen the need for those cards. (a starting hand full of CB would hurt).
You could try vengeful pharaoh. It is also another win condition.

Lastly i think you need a pair of urborg since you have six colorless lands.

I will try this config next Tuesday:


1 The Rack
4 Bloodghast
4 shrieking affliction
1 nether spirit
2 tombstalker
1 vengeful pharaoh

4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
4 gitaxian probe
4 cabal therapy
3 liliana of the veil
1 entomb
1 squee, goblin nabob
1 Collective Brutality


11 Swamp
1 polluted delta
4 bloodstained mire
4 marsh flats
1 dakmor salvage
1 blood crypt

cabal therapy is a card that not very many people run in pox...its a good, skill-intensive card and i like it..

though we really need our spot discard to always hit when there is a potential target..therapy has a possibility of missing, especially against decks that run brainstorm because they can hide the cards, making it more likely for it to miss..

decks like grixis pyromancer runs it well because they have the pyromancer tokens as a sac outlet to flash it back..

hardcore's take on it with ghasts etc might just be the way to go..

Cabal Therapy rewards format knowledge/familiarity, and if you don't know the format I would definitely stick to IoK/TS over CT. However, if you do have good knowledge of the format and your metagame I would advocate strongly for CT because it allows much stronger plays. Flashing it back with Bloodghast is just gravy IMHO. I also really like Bitterblossom for Pox right now, it's just soooooooo good. Those tokens allow for plenty of CT fodder.

I really like the Vengeful Pharaoh tech, it seems quite good. You take your beats but eventually deal with stuff. Getting it into the graveyard seems pretty easy, maybe even maindeck 1-2 Darkblast as alternative removals to give a better chance of dredging it. Darkblast is actually really good in my metagame right now (grixis delver and elves are two of the most popular decks.) With the format being more 'fair' it allows Pox to be really flexible.

I realized two things: playing vengeful pharaoh make any Pox effect kill two creatures. (Like two flipped delvers) Second, at five mana it is actually playable as win con.
However, I am not sure how well it work in reality but one in the deck for testing purposes doesn't hurt.

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

I am not sure how well it work in reality but one in the deck for testing purposes doesn't hurt.

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i tried it with entomb, "in response to you declaring attackers, i cast entomb"
you don't have to declare targets so if an opponent asks you what card, it just resolved...

Yeah, sounds like you can do some tricks with it. Do you still play it?

I am going to test quest for the nihil stone too. I see it as a variant of the rack and shrieking affliction.

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Originally Posted by jredelstein

I started 7-1 at GP Vegas with it.

Collective Brutality is amazing, I am up to 4 total, 3 main, 1 sideboard. Bloodghast, , Nether Spirit, , Life from the Loam, , Cabal Therapy, and extra lands make it so I almost never don't escalate. Life gain is hugely relavent again Burn obviously but also Marit Lage, going above 20 life allows sorcercy speed cards to answer the token.

One thing to watch out for in the GB pox is that Sanctum Prelate on 2 is tough to deal with, Cabal Pit and Pernicious Deed are my best answers.

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What was your list at GP Vegas. Have you changed it any based on the tournament experience?

I haven't tried any recent cards on my list. Is there any new cards that should be added? I'm currently thinking of using Collective Brutality. I also need help constructing a sideboard. What are must have cards on sb for Loam Pox?
Current List :
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Crop Rotation
3 Entomb
1 Garruk Relentless
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Life from the Loam
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Nether Spirit
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Raven's Crime
4 Smallpox
2 Swamp
1The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Thespian's Stage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Forest
1 Dark Depths
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Barren Moor
4 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

I am going to test quest for the nihil stone too. I see it as a variant of the rack and shrieking affliction.

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It seems a little too situationally good to me. The Rack/S-Affliction just do their thing. I was playing 8-rack pox in legacy for a little bit (testing on MWS, no real paper games) and it was good, but not necessarily better than playing Tombstalker, and definitely not better than Bitterblossom. It plays out much like the modern version and really leaning hard on Raven's Crime to keep opponents hellbent. The up-side is the clock is FAST. The downside is you need to dedicate so much room to discard that you end up sacrificing board control (and turn 1 explosiveness...I didn't even have room to squeeze in Dark Ritual.)

Rough list I was using:

3x Shrieking Affliction
4x The Rack
4x Thoughtseize
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Raven's Crime
4x Hymn to Tourach
2x Wrench Mind
4x Smallpox
2x Fatal Push
2x Innocent Blood
3x Liliana of the Veil
1x Crucible of Worlds
4x Wasteland
4x Mishra's Factory
1x Dakmor Salvage
1x Cabal Pit
14x Swamp



I saw some footage of a guy at Vegas doing a Bw version of pox with Entomb/Lingering Souls/bitterblossom and it seemed really cool. I love the idea of playing Souls/Vindicate and white gives a metric ton of really powerful sideboard options. I was thinking of going for something like this:

Starting with something like this:

4x Lingering Souls
3x Bitterblossom
2x Bloodghast
4x Thoughtseize
3x Cabal Therapy
4x Hymn to Tourach
4x Smallpox
Xx Fatal Push
Xx Swords to Plowshares
1x Vindicate

Enlightened Tutor, Entomb (with Vengeful Pharaoh), and other options seem really cool here. I even like the idea of Ghostly Prison.

Four Pox and four Smallpox are the core when playing with racks. The Pox effects force your opponent to empty his hand to replace creatures and lands. This is crucial. Otherwise the opponent can sit and hoard cards and play passively.

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

Four Pox and four Smallpox are the core when playing with racks. The Pox effects force your opponent to empty his hand to replace creatures and lands. This is crucial. Otherwise the opponent can sit and hoard cards and play passively.

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That must have been where I went wrong. I just assumed the efficiency of Raven's Crime was paramount, but it makes total sense. They *must* play out their lands/threats/spells to avoid getting them discarded, only to run straight into Pox/Smallpox hosing them anyways. I just figured when their lands are nuked they wouldn't be playing spells, which lets them build up their hand again, which in turn makes The Rack not do damage. I really like the idea of playing a diverse threat package. I'm thinking Lingering Souls (flying tokens, protects Liliana), Bloodghast (maybe 2 for Cabal Therapy along with Souls tokens), The Rack, and Mishra's Factory. Between all of those it will provide avenues of closing games, and probably closing them faster than normal. Maybe even 1x Tombstalker (but it's a non-bo with Souls.)

This is what I'm thinking, would love your thoughts on it!

Threats
4x The Rack
2x Bloodghast
1x Tombstalker
4x Lingering Souls

Discard
4x Thoughtseize
3x Cabal Therapy
4x Hymn to Tourach

Removal/Pox
3x Fatal Push
1x Vindicate
4x Smallpox
2x Pox

Planeswalkers
3x Liliana of the Veil
1x Sorin, Solemn Visitor

Lands
3x Mishra's Factory
1x Shambling Vent
4x Wasteland
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4x Marsh Flats
2x Scrubland
5x swamp
1x Plains

Sideboard
2x Kambal, Consul of Allocation (storm/burn tech!)
2x Rest in Peace
2x Surgical Extraction
1x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Darkblast
2x Swords to Plowshares
2x Zealous Persecution
2x Disenchant
1x Lost Legacy

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Originally Posted by SuggaJamz

I haven't tried any recent cards on my list. Is there any new cards that should be added? I'm currently thinking of using Collective Brutality. I also need help constructing a sideboard. What are must have cards on sb for Loam Pox?
Current List :
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Crop Rotation
3 Entomb
1 Garruk Relentless
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Life from the Loam
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Nether Spirit
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Raven's Crime
4 Smallpox
2 Swamp
1The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Thespian's Stage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Mishra's Factory
1 Forest
1 Dark Depths
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Barren Moor
4 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire

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With Entomb, I would add in a darkblast in the side. Pithing Needle for Jace, Stage, Relic etc. Toxic Deluge, maybe another Deed in the side. Coffin Purge is good with Entomb as well. Krosan Grip and Maelstrom Pulse help get rid of permanent grave hate as well. Leyline if the Void is run more now from Eldrazi and it ducks Abrupt Decay unlike RIP. Maybe another Barren Moor against Surgical. Faith of the Devoted is good if you can get it down against Burn and fast decks with Loam active. Collective Brutality shines in this deck like no other because of the ease of hitting all the modes by discarding lands, Loams and Bloodghasts, though there are some decks, again like Eldrazi aggro that don't care about it that much, but for the most part a couple of the modes are bothersome to most decks, and brutal to Delvers and Shamen. Probably a couple of Spheres vs Storm and other speed decks.

Gonti's Machinations

Has anyone discussed this here yet? It seems like a Rack effect that could get super good. Fetchlands, opponent's attacking us, Smallpox, Pox, and Bitterblossom all trigger this enchantment. The closest allegory is Sun Droplet, but this one makes your opponent lose life while keeping you in the game. It only costs B and you get an Essence Drain (only opponent, not creatures) with each activation.

Thoughts? I haven't seen it in the thread, maybe I missed it?

EDIT: I saw it in a modern Mardu Burn decklist at mtgtop8, got me thinking...

It is more like a lightning bolt, or bump in the night.
The word 'sacrifice' ruins it 🙁

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

It is more like a lightning bolt, or bump in the night.
The word 'sacrifice' ruins it 🙁

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Yeah I agree, MrSafety I think you are just misreading the card.
I think it would probably be played in this deck if it only cost you {E}{E} to activate and stayed on the battlefield but it would probably make the card way too good in general and see play across multiple archetypes. (Almost like a lifelink unblockable delver of secrets that doesn't die to creature removal O_O )

@beez I'm not sure Faith of the Devoted is better than Syphon Life in an Entomb/Loam deck

It is cool to be able to tutor (Entomb) for Syphon Life, and it is better to Loam into the graveyard than an Enchantment, but at five mana a turn to Loam and Syphon it is harder to establish earlier than Faith of the Devoted, which you can lay with 3 and play with less mana a turn. Also even works with Lilliana's pitching cards, especially Bloodghast, plus cycling if you run a Barren Moor or two.

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Originally Posted by Hardcore

It is more like a lightning bolt, or bump in the night.
The word 'sacrifice' ruins it ��

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You're right, I missed that. I thought you just needed to pay the 2 energy and get a repeatable effect. Total garbage at this point lol...

Did some experiment today. Regretably the store had no Quest for the Nihil stone, but i tried the pharaoh and squee. The later was of little use, but the vengeful dude actually did something.

Thinking of getting into Pox as it seems like it would suit me, love Cursed Scroll and Nether Spirit, love grindy games, love the old-school black feel the deck has.

Question though: how does the deck do against U/W/x Stoneblade or DnT? Those decks (and other creature-ish decks like Delver) seem to be the most common in my metagame. I looked at the matchup section in the primer but i was worried that it might be a bit dated.

For reference, here is the (fairly budget) list I'm thinking of running:

3 Cursed Scroll

2 Nether Spirit

1 Night of Souls' Betrayal

2 Liliana of the Veil (that's all I have at the moment)

4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Ritual
4 Innocent Blood
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Duress
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Sinkhole
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Beseech the Queen
4 Smallpox
1 Pox

4 Mishra's Factory
11 Snow-Covered Swamp
4 Wasteland
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Dakmor Salvage
1 Cabal Pit

Sideboard
2 Noetic Scales
2 Trinisphere
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tombstalker
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Engineered Plague
1 Darkblast
1 Lost Legacy
2 Massacre
1 Syphon Life

I take it Sinkhole isn't considered too hot right now, probably will cut those for Collective Brutality if I can get my hands on some. Anyway, any advice welcomed, thank you :)

I strongly suggest dropping your Innocent Blood Count and using Fatal Push. I found Innocent Blood to be too inconsistent for my liking in many games. Against Elves, Young Pyromancer, and anything with multiple creatures really, it isn't good. You really want to kill the best creature, not let them choose which creature is less important. Smallpox and Liliana are enough sacrifice removal, I think. I also strongly suggest Ratchet Bomb maindeck (its super affordable if you're on a budget.)

Thanks for the advice, that makes a lot of sense. I'll probably drop the 4 innocent blood then, add in 2 ratchet bomb and 2 fatal push (or some other cheap targeted removal)

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Originally Posted by aslidsiksoraksi

Thanks for the advice, that makes a lot of sense. I'll probably drop the 4 innocent blood then, add in 2 ratchet bomb and 2 fatal push (or some other cheap targeted removal)

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I wouldn't completely drop Innocent Blood from your list, you still need them against decks like Death and Taxes or Lands where you can't deal with some of their creatures. I currently run 2 and that seems to work.