[Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Valech

(following my experience, no claim for accuracy)

Sneaky Show (and all variants) - g1 is hard. bring ethersworn canonist if you have. hard matchup imo.
U/R Delver - In our favor. we run a decent amount of removal and they are hit hard by early hand disruption. furthermore they only run a few threats. you will want to side in more removal. i win most of the games against delverdecks.
RUG Canadian - no idea
U/W Stoneblade - well balanced at best. they tend to be quicker when it comes to throwing big threats and have decent protection through counters.
U/W Miracles - well balanced to good. play around terminus and wreck his hands. flash lingering souls only if really needed. they also run very few threats. if you can disrupt his hand aim for stuff thats enables miracle trickery, i.e. brainstorm and tops
Maverick - first game quite hard, winable but hard. but dystopia and/or perish will make it a lot more easier. i do board out slow stuff like bitterblossom, cause this matchup is won in earlygame. not too sure about that at all.
Dredge - preboard quite bad - like almost every deck is preboard bad against that deck. perhaps deathrite shaman from rtr will lighten that up. bring all the hate postboard and spare your stp/ptw for his ichorids.
Goblins - they are quick. if they start rolling you probably wont recover. aim t1 for vials or, more important lackeys. if you run zealous persecution, it will help a lot. bring some more removal. sofai feels like winmore, but is definitly nice to have
Merfolk - if you let them drop more than 2 creatures youll lose. decimate and decimate always their threats. liliana is gold, every removal is gold. hate them thou.
Death and Taxes - only played very few games. dystopia will shine here.
Reanimator - if they drop griselbrand, and they will try that, itll get dire for you. take out hymns if you still run them, take out midrange threats like bitterblossom, wreck his hands if possible early and most important put in graveyardhate.
Zoo - loads of threats. same as maverick. dystopia, more pinpointremoval and hope for being a bit lucky.
Enchantress - again, dystopia shines golden. sometimes enchantress takes a shitload of time to set up. use that time. dont try to fight it out when they are loaded with stuff already. some ppl like to run 1 or 2 disenchant or the new and better disenchant from rtr.
T.E.S. - i hate stormcomboplayers. they weren´t breastfed. i swear. i run a set of ethersworn canonists only for those ..people.
Pox (and MBC variants) - well balanced. if you manage to survive their boardsweeping and to exile their recurring threats like netherspirit and bloodghast it will be golden. mox is nice here because pox wont affect it. they usually dont run lots of threats and sometimes you will see them deal damage through rack. if you run vindicate (or plan to splash g for abrupt decay) get rid of those threats.


again, just my opinion.

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Thanks for the feedback! That does sound like the deck will not play too well in my meta though :frown:

I really like Dark Confidant and I am looking for a deck that can abuse/utilize him and be good in the above meta I mentioned. Hmmmm...

Sneaky Show (and all variants) g1 is easier then game 2 tbh. Discards win game 1. Combination of thoughtseize, cabal therapy and maindecked lilianas makes game 1 very much winnable. Game 2 they should bring in leylines against the discard makes the matchup much harder. But geting in the seal of cleansing, oring and humility does make swing it a bit as well. like 55/45 in our favor.

U/R Delver a bit in their favor before board. 45/55% in their favor preboard. Afterboard with timely reinforcment the favor is back in our favor

RUG Canadian yet an other 50/50 matchup Its really tight matchup. ist just a couple of %ages in either favor.

U/W Stoneblade
U/W Miracles first game will last 30min at least and its in our favor planeswalkers are really strong against the deck. imo its in our favor with couple of %.

Maverick its a good matchup but maverick will punish any bad hands.

Dredge Greatly in their favor discard and walkers has little to no effect against them and it needs to much dedicated hate for being worth have a good matchup against it.

Goblins deck do contain alot of removal and tokens and trade with them very good.

Merfolk Again lot of removal and creatures in our deck that has to die bob and stoneforge also deck doesnt have and islands or forests great advantech to us. And they have minimal amount of removal like 2 dismembers..

Death and Taxes havent face the deck

Reanimator like dredge is in their favor but this one you can attack with discard and lilianas. And gravehate like surgical extraction is good.

Zoo Kinda like burn but more creatures fetching smart for basics playing arround pop and having enought removal in the deck to really lower the damage you take from them so you can overwhelm them with bob advantech. After the board Timely Reinforcements make the matchup alot easier so does the extra jitte.

Enchantress Their deck is really slow and Liliana can break the deck and so can dystopia from the board. Discard spells makes you able to pick of their hand and seal of cleansing getins boarded in as well. leyline is always a threat.

T.E.S. matchup in their favor same as with dredge need to many board cards to make it a favorble matchup. Even with Ethersworn canonist they will probly eot bounce or pact then go of and kill you. Hopefully surgical extraction and discard spells will buy enought time to beat trhem down but its doubtful.

Pox (and MBC variants) never faced. But surgical extraction, seal of cleansing, tokens and discard spells makes smallpoxes a bit less powerful. Seal of cleansing hits cursed scroll or crucibles of world.


Have had a bit diffrent results against thoes. For me alot of matchups are very close. There isnt a matchup that is a clear blowout but really no deck that just blows you out except maybe dredge but if drege is really infected the area then board can be changed accordingly so can it in a storm combo meta.

Here's how I see Deadguy stacking up (well, my version at least).

UW Miracles. Good for me. Haven't lost to it yet. Liliana, Bitterblossom and Vindicate are huge in this matchup. Bob less so, as he gets swords or countered. I usually bait out Confidant hoping he gets countered and then land Bitterblossom or Liliana.

Sneak attack. Not good. 35-65. They can combo off turn 1. I find game 1's easier but if they play Leyline of Sanctity it's friggin hard.

RUG Delver. Ok. 55-45. I have more removal then he has guys (maindeck 16). I also have RElics to deal with Goyf and Mongoose.

Goblins. Really good. Again, I have removal and one mana discard. Sword of Fire and Ice and Jitte are devastating against them.

Merfolk. ok 50-50. SOFI not as good vs them as it is vs Goblins.

Storm. ok. 50-50. If they get the turn 1 kill, nothing I can do about it. If they stumble, they're dead.

Enchantress. Good. I can deal with the 0/1 creature with edict effects.

MUD. Good. Played it 3 times, haven't lost. Scary deck though.

Dredge. Good. I lose game 1 but I have 5 GY hate in board with a tutor for 2 of them (relics).

Reanimator. Really good. 60-40 at least. I have removal in both colours and tons of GY hate and Show and tell cards.

Never faced Omniscience but I assume it's as bad as Sneak attack, probably worse as they don't solely rely on dudes to kill you.

Maverick. Good. Game 1's are close. Damnation and Liliana, gatekeeper, shriekmaw, jitte etc. usually too much for them to handle.


I have decent matchups but I don't have any slam dunk ones but some bad ones. Tried a different deck recently (2 combos in one, Painter combo and Leyline combo) and I must say it's nice to have matches that are almost auto-wins. lol. It's fun to land ensnaring bridge vs Merfolk game 1...

@ Wilkin and Rizso

Thank you for your feedback! Your feedbacks vary, I guess it all comes down to what list you play. Can you further help me by showing me your list/s? Thanks!:tongue:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sherko7

@ Wilkin and Rizso

Thank you for your feedback! Your feedbacks vary, I guess it all comes down to what list you play. Can you further help me by showing me your list/s? Thanks!:tongue:

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currently this one:

4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Lingering Souls
4 Bitterblossom

3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughseize
4 Cabal therapy

4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa´s Jitte
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 ajani goldmane
2 zealous persecution

3 Chrome Mox
4 Marsh Flats
2 polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
1 Plains
1 Fetid Heath
4 Scrubland
3 Swamp


Sideboard:
2 Timely Reinforcement
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Leyline of the void
3 dystopia
3 Pithing Needle
1 Umezawas Jitte

Guys, I need a few advices:

I currently run this list:
Creatures (8+4)
4 Bob
4 Stoneforge
4 Lingering souls

Removal (9)
3 Vindicate
4 Swords To Plowshares
2 Zealous Persecution

Equips (3)
2 Jitte
1 Batterskull
Walkers (5)
3 Liliana of the veil
2 Sorin Lord of Innistrad

Hand Disruption (8)
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Inquisition of kozilek

Manabase (23)
3 Chrome Mox
4 Swamps
2 Plains
3 Scrublands
1 Isolated Chapel
3 Wasteland
1 Arid Mesa
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh flat

Sideboard
4 Surgical Extractions
3 Timely Reinforcement
2 Ethersworn canonist
1 Thalia, guardian of thraben
5 Random slots


Basically I would like to hear some suggestion on the sideboard, like:
Why seal of clansing vs show and tell? I guess it can be put into play to deal with emmy (like oblivion ring), but can it do something to omniscence? (I still have some doubt about what happens when you put stuffs into play by show and tell, it's not a match up I have often any way (very rare).

I also saw some debate (not here) about RtR new GY card, Rest in peace: But I don't see myself cutting Surgical, they can simply help vs lot of decks, removing their spells or even lands... what's your thought about it though? Guess if dredge is really heavy some room can be made for them, but otherwise...

Also, I really ended up liking sorin in this build, but I can't seems to find room for Bitterblossom:
They were slow and bad topdeck, specially since I play mostly vs aggro stuffs (that's why I run two jitte maindeck).
Is it also safe to drop one land? I always felt like I can't do without the extra plain, but it seems I am an exception among us :D

I really hope the orzhov's charm and others stuffs will have something useful for us :laugh:

Reason for seal of cleansing instead of something like a disenchant is cos of flusterstorm and misdirection.

You can dropp down to 1 plain. plains are the worst land in the deck its just there really to avoid wastelands. With dazes, misdirection, flusterstorm and spellpierces everywhere power of vindicate is really diminished. Scrubland should be 4of and as a 5th dual land i run a Fetid Heath, it really does fix the mana when you are stuck with the sucky plain in play or a white card on your mox. IMO thoughtseizes are just better then inquisions of kozilek. If not wanting to play 4 thoughseizes they should at least split some for them. They are just so much better. They are the second best discard spell in the game after cabal therapy. I found myself board them in way to much when i ran 2 inquisions 2 thoughtseizes and are now playing 4 thoughtseizes, 4 Cabal Therapy and 2 inquisions main.

Rest in peace would be into trhe board as a supplement to surgical vs dredge, not replacing. Surgical extraction works in other matchups as well.

thanks for the explanation, now they make sense :tongue:

Guess will drop one plain and will take changes into account regard to the metagame evolution (here isn't like in usa thankfully)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Valech

So, what would you cut for deathrite shaman? how many would you run? and will you include abrupt decay?

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Currently working on a tentative decklist that would work with Deathrite Shaman while splashing green to get abrupt decay (uncounterability is invaluable especially in a meta full of blue). If I where to cut a card it would probably be Sorin, and vindicates (moved to the side). Will have a legacy tourney in a few weeks and would probably test it there.

Hi,

i am fairly new to this deck and legacy at all. I am using a deck very similar to rizso, which was kind of a blueprint for the first version of my deck.

Having little experience with legacy, i would like get some advice for sideboarding against other decks. Unfortunately i have very little time during the weekends. I cannot participate in tournaments very often. So i have to learn a lot by reading, watching, thinking, theory-stuff....

First of all her is the decklist:

Artifacts
2x Chrome Mox
2x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Batterskull

Creatures
4x Dark Confidant
4x Stoneforge Mystic

Enchantments
3x Bitterblossom

Land:
1x Godless Shrine
4x Scrubland
1x Karakas
1x Bloodstained Mire
4x Wasteland
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Arid Mesa
4x Marsh Flats
2x Plains
2x Swamp // maybe i should swap to 3 swamps, 1 plains?

Planeswalkers:
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3x Liliana of the Veil
1x Sorin, Lord of Innistrad

Spells:
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Cabal Therapy
1x Zealous Persecution
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lingering Souls



Sideboard:
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Darkblast <- I am thinking about using ghastly demise above this, but in most cases darkblast was awesome.
2x Perish
2x Seal of Cleansing
2x Humility
3x Extirpate
1x Zealous Persecution
1x Surgical Extraction
2x Duress

Overall the sideboard is quiet ok. I don't want to change it (only exception is darkblast).

I made a sideboard plan against the most used decks in my meta and the typical decks to beat. My meta is very heavy on creatures. Maybe you can help me out using the existing sideboard more efficient. I would really appreciate any advice.

Sideboard-Plan:

Combo-Elves:
+1 Umezawa's Jitte, +1 Darkblast, +2 Perish, +2 Humility, +1 Zealous Persecution
-4 Cabal Therapy,-1 Liliana of the Veil,-1 Inquisition of Kozilek,-1 Batterskull

I think this matchup is very favorable, but i am not sure, if sideboarding card denial out, is the right choice here. This is still a combo deck. Is Humility too expensive? I did really well with this sideboard-plan, though. I won game 2+3.
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Maverick:
+1 Umezawa's Jitte, +1 Darkblast, +2 Perish, +2 Humility, +1 Zealous Persecution,+1 Seal of Cleansing
-1 Chrome Mox, -4 Cabal Therapy,-3 Inquisition of Kozilek

I concentrate on destroying the creatures here. Again I take out most discard-spells. I can afford sideboarding out chrome mox, i think. Maverick is not that fast. I faced Maverick a lot of times. After sideboarding my odds were definately better winning the game. Overall 50/50
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TES:
+2 Duress, +3 Extirpate, +1 Surgical Extraction,+2 Seal of Cleansing
-4 Swords to Plowshares,-1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant, -1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad, -2 Liliana of the Veil

I won the only matchup i had. He won the 2nd game with a T1-kill. In the 1st and 3rd game, i destroyed his hand and killed him with batterskull.
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Goblins:
+1 Umezawa's Jitte, +1 Darkblast, +2 Humility, +1 Zealous Persecution,+1 Seal of Cleansing
-1 Chrome Mox, -4 Cabal Therapy,-1 Inquisition of Kozilek,-1 Liliana of the Veil

Not sure about taking Liliana out, but she is quiet expensive and goblins are fast and use ports and wastelands. I am really not sure what is best here. Had some matchups against goblins. 50/50
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Omniscience:
+2 Duress, +3 Extirpate, +1 Surgical Extraction,+2 Humility,+2 Seal of Cleansing
-4 Swords to Plowshares,-1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant, -1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad, -1 Stoneforge Mystic,-1 Zealous Persecution,-2 Bitterblossom

I lost this one. He won the coinflip and killed me in game 1 and 3 in turn 2. The problem was in both games, that he tucked his good spells away with brainstorm in response to my discardspells. I think, that the sideboard is pretty strong against Omniscience nevertheless. I think i would have won, if won the coinflip.
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UWB-Stoneblade:
+2 Duress
-1 Liliana of the Veil,-1 Chrome Mox

Never played against it, so i don't know if it's right.
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rUG Delver:
+2 Duress, +2 Perish,+1 Umezawa's Jitte
-2 Stoneforge Mystic, -1 Chrome Mox, -1 Liliana of the Veil, -1 Batterskull

Never played against it, so i don't know if it's right. I am sure it is not the best plan. There are definately other options.
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Sneak and Show:
+2 Duress, +2 Seal of Cleansing, +2 Humility,+3 Extirpate,+1 Surgical Extraction
-4 Swords to Plowshares,-1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant, -1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad, -1 Stoneforge Mystic,-1 Zealous Persecution,-2 Bitterblossom

It's basicly the same sideboard like the one for Omniscience. I think this matchup is easier for us.
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UW Miracle
+2 Duress,+1 Zealous Persecution,+1 Umezawa's Jitte
-4 Swords to Plowshares

Never played against miracle, i don't know.
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Dredge
+3 Extirpate,+1 Surgical Extraction,+1 Umezawa's Jitte,+1 Zealous Persecution,+2 Duress
-3 Liliana of the Veil,-Cabal therapy,-4 Swords to Plowshares

My sideboard is pretty helpless against dredge i think. Never faced Dredge in my meta, though.
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Merfolk
+1 Umezawa's Jitte, +2 Humility, +2 Seal of Cleansing
-4 Cabal Therapy,-1 Inquisition of Kozilek

Again, never played against it. Seal of Cleansing for Standstill, Vial.
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Reanimator
+1 Surgical Extraction,+3 Extirpate,+2 Duress,+2 Humility
-1 Zealous Persecution,-2 Stoneforge Mystic,-1 Umezawa's Jitte,-4 Cabal Therapy

Never played against reanimator. Don't know if this sideboard-plan works. Maybe keeping cabal therapy is the better choice? Dropping Bitterblossom?

As I said. Feedback appreciated.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rizso

Reason for seal of cleansing instead of something like a disenchant is cos of flusterstorm and misdirection.

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Also it's nice to have your hand empty if you choose to +1 your liliana.

I had a Seal of Cleansing in a Omniscience-Matchup. So i ShowandTelled the Seal and destroyed his Omniscience. Unfortunately the opponent still had priority and cast another Omniscience, which kind of ended the game.

I watched other games of this omniscience deck and the guy couldn't put the gameending-threads into play most of the times. In most cases he had to tutor first (burning wish etc.). If you can response to this by destroying his omniscience, he has to start all over again. I think Seal of Cleansing is really nice in this matchup.


edit: added card-tags

Just quickly hopping in here, why board in Seal of Cleansing vs TES? Hoping to get the LED they played to stop it from discarding? I haven't checked your list very well if you just have so many things to board out, but i wouldnt board in Seal of Cleansing usually

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Viridia

Just quickly hopping in here, why board in Seal of Cleansing vs TES? Hoping to get the LED they played to stop it from discarding? I haven't checked your list very well if you just have so many things to board out, but i wouldnt board in Seal of Cleansing usually

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Hi, yes, that's actually my intention. I know the seal isn't that great against LED. There are so many dead cards in the main deck and i think the seal is better than nothing. Maybe you are right and keeping liliana in the deck and using the +1 discard ability is the better option?

You dont want to remove the cabal therapy against dredge as the flaskback will remove the bridges. also it will never ever force them to discard a dredge card as long as you arent naming it for some odd reason.

The seal is fine against storm cos when you play with discard spells they tend to cast the mana artifacts to be able to save them without brainstorm.

As for lands imo it should be 3swamp / 1 plain as basics and 4 scrublands, 4 marshflats and 2 other black fetchlands myself run 2 polluted delta it. Just doing something simple as delta into swamp thoughtseize can against an unknown opponent think you are playing a storm deck and it can really tilt his gameplan against you. I have done it against a rug player. I stumbled on my 2nd land after doing the delta, swamp thoughtseize. But stumbled so long that i just gave up. Then he boarded in anti-storm cards wich isnt exactly effective against me then winning the 2 games after the stumble. Sure polluted deltas are bit more expensive then the BG or the BR fetch.

@ Fetznok

I would suggest
-1 Stoneforge
+1 Chrome Mox

I dont like Top in the Deck, but thats only my opinion.

Split Inquisition/Thoughtseize.

@Valech: I will test using a 3rd Chrome Mox. I am not sure if it really works out for me. In almost all matches the Stoneforge Mystic was really important for me, because in the creature-heavy meta, the livegain and the pressure from the equipment helped a lot. With another Chrome Mox i would add another mana slot to the deck.

Yes, thoughtseize is probably the better option. It's prize unfortunately went higher and higher. I will check, if have the money for 1 or 2 of them.

I really like to play with the top, in any deck :). And it saved me quiet often from a manascrew, kept the pressure up in the late game and saved me from being killed by my own confidant. I know that the top lacks the tempo in the first turns though.

@Rizso:
You are right, cabal therapy definately has to stay vs dredge. I never actually read the wording of the bridges completely.

I will swap one plain for a swamp and swap the arid mesa with a polluted delta. I am not sure about getting another 2 polluted delta. They are quiet expensive. I would like to have one for my EDH-Deck anyway. So I buy one.

Thx for the suggestions, everyone!

p.s.:
i think will switch one seal of cleansing with an oblivion ring. the only deck i sideboard both seal of cleansing in is showandtell/omniscience-decks (there are some in my meta). oblivion ring is better there i think.

@Rizso
May you share your current B/w Confidant deck ? I'm really interested on the way you breakdown your deck

My list is on the tournament reports. Yeah, although Rizso and I (and everyone else here, lol) are playing Deadguy Ale since the builds differ so do the matchups.

Rizso's list is more token based whereas my only tokens come from Bitterblossom. I probably play more removal than him or most people for that matter. I do like the Timely Reinforcements, if my meta had more burn in it, I'd consider it.

Debating whether to play only 2 Thoughtseize. I used to play 4 Thoughseize, 4 bob and 3 Bitterblossom but at times I had "dead cards" in hand since I only want to have one bitterblossom in play and only more than one Bob vs Combo matchups. I cut down to 3 thoughtseize, 2 Inquisition and 3 Cabal Therapy at the moment.

Reasoning is the life loss eventually matters and against most decks I take something that Inquisition would have taken anyway (like Delver of Secrets).

Will definitely play a Rest in Peace in the board. So good vs Threshold. Heck, I'm going to build a Rest in Peace/Energy Field/Helm of Obedience deck sometime. Lol, at a tournament recently I played Leyline of the Void main with Helm in conjunction with Painter Servant Combo. Made top 4.

Hey guys,

I've been following this thread pretty closely for the last little while, while I gathered thew cards I needed to play this deck. Yesterday I finally managed to get everything for it, and it's a blast! I've put together Riszo's version, with a few minor changes (mostly moving around the discard suite, since I don't have any thoughtseizes).


However, I'd like a bit of advice about the sideboard. I've been thinking I'd like to run an enlightened tutor sideboard, but I'm wondering whether this would be a good idea, or whether relying on tutoring would be too slow.

I'm thinking about something along the lines of:

2x Enlightened Tutor
1x Humility (sneak and show, maverick, death and taxes, merfolk, goblins, etc.)
1x Oblivion Ring (sneak and show, omnisciense, etc)
1x Chalice of the Void (storm, delver variants)
1x Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice (there's quite a few goblins, merfolk, and rug delver in my meta)
1x Seal of Cleansing
1x Ethersworn Cannonist (storm)
1x Pithing Needle
2x Perish
1x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Surgical Extraction


Would that make sense, or am I wasting my time with the tutors and should just replace them with something else?

Thanks for reading!

43

Dont think you should go way overboard with the tutor board.

If i would do a tutor board right now it would be like:
enlightened tutor
dystopia
Rest in peace
humility
oblivion ring
canonists

Really dont want the tutors in any matchups that is a grind. But really as good as rest in peace is i think i just rather play more of the rest in peace then bothering with the tutors. The board for the deck is afterall very flexible. It should contain: maverick hate, gravehat and the rest of the cards should be against the meta.

So, has anyone made experiences with deathrite shaman and/or abrupt decay? I agressivly made room for deathrite shaman maindeck and run two decays sideboard. I also added an extra Bayou. I am not underwhlemed by deathrite shaman´s performance, but i think four of them is too much. 2-3 will feel better, especially because it makes room for abrupt decay maindeck, which was a hammer everytime i drew it.

My observation was, that i often couldnt decide weather to play Shaman or ts/inqui T1, when I had cc3 spells in my hand. Another hard decision was, if I should keep my hand with shaman and chrome mox. Felt a bit like too much mana acceleration.
On the other hand i had some sweet moments with shaman as well. Against graveyard-related decks it´s a gift. Also, Goyfs and KotRs don´t really see much land against that guy. I also had two matches in which he slowly beat my opponent´s healthpool after ensnaring bridge stalled me.
Abrupt decay saw more game time then other cards in my sideboard. Which is why I look for a maindeck spot for it. CB-players cry, its useful against fast aggro decks and controlly decks in general don´t like it.

Any thoughts on this?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Valech

So, has anyone made experiences with deathrite shaman and/or abrupt decay? I agressivly made room for deathrite shaman maindeck and run two decays sideboard. I also added an extra Bayou. I am not underwhlemed by deathrite shaman´s performance, but i think four of them is too much. 2-3 will feel better, especially because it makes room for abrupt decay maindeck, which was a hammer everytime i drew it.

My observation was, that i often couldnt decide weather to play Shaman or ts/inqui T1, when I had cc3 spells in my hand. Another hard decision was, if I should keep my hand with shaman and chrome mox. Felt a bit like too much mana acceleration.
On the other hand i had some sweet moments with shaman as well. Against graveyard-related decks it´s a gift. Also, Goyfs and KotRs don´t really see much land against that guy. I also had two matches in which he slowly beat my opponent´s healthpool after ensnaring bridge stalled me.
Abrupt decay saw more game time then other cards in my sideboard. Which is why I look for a maindeck spot for it. CB-players cry, its useful against fast aggro decks and controlly decks in general don´t like it.

Any thoughts on this?

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I've had the same basic experiences as you. I run 3 Deathrites and 2 Decays main, with a Pernicious Deed Side, as a good bonus for the barely green splash.

I tried the deck with moxen and without, thinking that deathrites would let me skimp out on mana for business. Which of course turned out to be bull. I'm totally fine with 3 deathrites, 2 moxen for mana acceleration, and I upped my fetchland count to improve both my manabase (splashing for two bayous) and deathrites.

I've ditched the bitterblosssoms, which I have always been 50/50 on. Sometimes they're amazing, and other times they're crap. It's looking more and more like a sideboard card, but it's not worthy of that. So let's just get rid of them altogether.

Versus graveyard decks (loam, dredge, comes to mind) deathrite suddenly turns from a black manadork into your wincon. It's so good I can't begin to describe how effective it is to shut off loam's loaming, and dredge falters when I'm eating at the dredgers, punishing them for a slow hand that only gets better post board.

In short, I love deathrite, and decays make a lot of iffy matchups much, much better.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gaka

I've had the same basic experiences as you. I run 3 Deathrites and 2 Decays main, with a Pernicious Deed Side, as a good bonus for the barely green splash.

I tried the deck with moxen and without, thinking that deathrites would let me skimp out on mana for business. Which of course turned out to be bull. I'm totally fine with 3 deathrites, 2 moxen for mana acceleration, and I upped my fetchland count to improve both my manabase (splashing for two bayous) and deathrites.

I've ditched the bitterblosssoms, which I have always been 50/50 on. Sometimes they're amazing, and other times they're crap. It's looking more and more like a sideboard card, but it's not worthy of that. So let's just get rid of them altogether.

Versus graveyard decks (loam, dredge, comes to mind) deathrite suddenly turns from a black manadork into your wincon. It's so good I can't begin to describe how effective it is to shut off loam's loaming, and dredge falters when I'm eating at the dredgers, punishing them for a slow hand that only gets better post board.

In short, I love deathrite, and decays make a lot of iffy matchups much, much better.

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I run 4 Deathrites and 3 Decays (no Chrome Mox, can't justify the loss of CA from it), having multiples of Deathrites is not bad at all, I had this game against Merfolk with his GY full of creatures and some instants and sorceries and I have 3 Deathrites in play, and him with LoA and a few merfolks. I had 2 Deathrites gaining me life and 1 shocking him each turn and won via deathrites killing him, it was mazing how he can affect the game state. It is also good against Dredge in the 1st game which would have been an auto loose for us, but deathrite changed it all, its an easy win if your opponent can't dredge fast enough. Against RU Delver it was a hit, 1st turn Deathrite, 2nd turn Thoughtseize SFM, 3rd turn Hymn and SFM into jitte/Batterskull can stop it in its tracks, thus an unanswered Deathrite can boost out our early game a whole lot, even hardcasting a batterskull or equipping into it was even possible in this deck. The only decks which this doesn't do much is combo decks, currently looking into getting more discard into the deck as fodder for Deathrite, I am even considering Nezumi Shortfang, instant discard and can transform into a rack on legs is not a bad option.

I think Chrome Mox and Deathrite Shaman is lot of acceleration, I would rather go into Deathrite and drop chrome mox because top decking into Deathrite is a whole lot better than top decking into a chrome mox since it can do much more :laugh:

IMHO, Deathrite Shaman is bad vs dredge. Milling one card a turn (and not even on the turn you cast him) is usually way too slow vs Dredge.

Even Extraction and Extirpate are only ok cards but they are at least instant speed. But Deathrite is too slow IMO. If you are going to splash green, I'd much rather go for Scavenging Ooze or Knight of the Reliquary. Creatures that are beaters but can also affect the graveyard.

Shaman might me alright vs. say a Threshold deck (although i doubt it) or say an Aggro loam deck. But honestly the card from the new set that is awesome is Rest in Peace. Not only does it nuke both graveyards but further cards can't enter the graveyard. That is far better against Dredge, Reanimator, Thopter Combo, Threshold decks than Shaman. A 0/1 Goyf and 1/1 Mongoose are far easier to handle....for Shaman to do that, he would have to live for a long while.

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Originally Posted by paladin3056

I run 4 Deathrites and 3 Decays (no Chrome Mox, can't justify the loss of CA from it), having multiples of Deathrites is not bad at all, I had this game against Merfolk with his GY full of creatures and some instants and sorceries and I have 3 Deathrites in play, and him with LoA and a few merfolks. I had 2 Deathrites gaining me life and 1 shocking him each turn and won via deathrites killing him, it was mazing how he can affect the game state. It is also good against Dredge in the 1st game which would have been an auto loose for us, but deathrite changed it all, its an easy win if your opponent can't dredge fast enough. Against RU Delver it was a hit, 1st turn Deathrite, 2nd turn Thoughtseize SFM, 3rd turn Hymn and SFM into jitte/Batterskull can stop it in its tracks, thus an unanswered Deathrite can boost out our early game a whole lot, even hardcasting a batterskull or equipping into it was even possible in this deck. The only decks which this doesn't do much is combo decks, currently looking into getting more discard into the deck as fodder for Deathrite, I am even considering Nezumi Shortfang, instant discard and can transform into a rack on legs is not a bad option.

I think Chrome Mox and Deathrite Shaman is lot of acceleration, I would rather go into Deathrite and drop chrome mox because top decking into Deathrite is a whole lot better than top decking into a chrome mox since it can do much more :laugh:

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I won´t play without my Moxens anymore. The point is, that the manaacceleration of Deathrite Shaman only accelerates CC3+ cards. Unfortunatley we, or at least I, play mostly CC2 cards, namely Bob, Mystic, Bitterblossom, Canonist Sideboard, Abrupt Decay and Jitte. perhaps I forgot a few. Of course I like doing several things T2 like cc2 + discard/StoP but even more I love dropping a must-handle T1 (T1 = only-FoW-will-stop-you). Thats why I run two Mox. If you don´t draw them right away, you probably won´t in the rest of the game. If you draw 1 right away, chances are even smaller that you will draw the other one. If you start with both... well, then you are an unlucky man.
Of course I see the utility Shaman may provide, but saying topdecking him midgame is better then topdecking Mox doesn´t mean it´s good to topdeck him.
Even examples like your merfolk-match can´t convince me of him being worth a playset. If you were able to drop three creatures agsinst merfolk without being countered or overrun long before, game was yours anyway.

Conclusion: I will stay with two Mox and three of Shaman. Perhaps cut Shaman to two.


@ Gaka:
I´d like to see your list or at least know about your walker-setup.

@ Wilkin:
So how is it desireable to nuke both graveyards if you run cards with flashback, e.g. Lingering Souls and Cabal Therapy?
Shaman indeed is slow. But milling one card a turn is better than milling none. Ooze would be more of a sb card to me.

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Originally Posted by Valech

I won´t play without my Moxens anymore. The point is, that the manaacceleration of Deathrite Shaman only accelerates CC3+ cards. Unfortunatley we, or at least I, play mostly CC2 cards, namely Bob, Mystic, Bitterblossom, Canonist Sideboard, Abrupt Decay and Jitte. perhaps I forgot a few. Of course I like doing several things T2 like cc2 + discard/StoP but even more I love dropping a must-handle T1 (T1 = only-FoW-will-stop-you). Thats why I run two Mox. If you don´t draw them right away, you probably won´t in the rest of the game. If you draw 1 right away, chances are even smaller that you will draw the other one. If you start with both... well, then you are an unlucky man.
Of course I see the utility Shaman may provide, but saying topdecking him midgame is better then topdecking Mox doesn´t mean it´s good to topdeck him.
Even examples like your merfolk-match can´t convince me of him being worth a playset. If you were able to drop three creatures agsinst merfolk without being countered or overrun long before, game was yours anyway.

Conclusion: I will stay with two Mox and three of Shaman. Perhaps cut Shaman to two.

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As much as I like the Moxen (Turn 1 Bob, SFM and Hymn) which is definitely a tempting play, but not a play that we would often play into, then having to top deck a mox into mid to late game gave me some bad experiences so I had to drop it, but its your choice we do have different opinions and deck list while mine is still in the works. But I think if it were in yours you can just drop deathrite all the same, they definitely work better in multiples since I had games where i would definitely like to draw more to get more value. Keep the abrupts, they are worth the splash until we get into Gatecrash which I am very hopeful we would get instant discard via Orzhov Charm and more goodies.

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Originally Posted by Wilkin

IMHO, Deathrite Shaman is bad vs dredge. Milling one card a turn (and not even on the turn you cast him) is usually way too slow vs Dredge.

Even Extraction and Extirpate are only ok cards but they are at least instant speed. But Deathrite is too slow IMO. If you are going to splash green, I'd much rather go for Scavenging Ooze or Knight of the Reliquary. Creatures that are beaters but can also affect the graveyard.

Shaman might me alright vs. say a Threshold deck (although i doubt it) or say an Aggro loam deck. But honestly the card from the new set that is awesome is Rest in Peace. Not only does it nuke both graveyards but further cards can't enter the graveyard. That is far better against Dredge, Reanimator, Thopter Combo, Threshold decks than Shaman. A 0/1 Goyf and 1/1 Mongoose are far easier to handle....for Shaman to do that, he would have to live for a long while.

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Deathrite isn't playable simply because it interacts with dredge. Yes, it can be slow against dredge, but game 1 against dredge is pretty shitty right now. Deathrite turns that game 1 from bad to possibility of winning. For a black manadork. Seems reasonable to me. It's playable because it's versatile.

He helps the original 56 along with his ramp, gives us some reach, and helps offset bob's lifeloss. It's reasonable for a single hybrid mana.

For barely doing anything other than slipping in a Bayou (maybe even a Dryad Arbor to facilitate more fodder for Cabal Therapy or Jitte) it's a good choice.

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Originally Posted by Valech

I won´t play without my Moxens anymore. The point is, that the manaacceleration of Deathrite Shaman only accelerates CC3+ cards. Unfortunatley we, or at least I, play mostly CC2 cards, namely Bob, Mystic, Bitterblossom, Canonist Sideboard, Abrupt Decay and Jitte. perhaps I forgot a few. Of course I like doing several things T2 like cc2 + discard/StoP but even more I love dropping a must-handle T1 (T1 = only-FoW-will-stop-you). Thats why I run two Mox. If you don´t draw them right away, you probably won´t in the rest of the game. If you draw 1 right away, chances are even smaller that you will draw the other one. If you start with both... well, then you are an unlucky man.
Of course I see the utility Shaman may provide, but saying topdecking him midgame is better then topdecking Mox doesn´t mean it´s good to topdeck him.
Even examples like your merfolk-match can´t convince me of him being worth a playset. If you were able to drop three creatures agsinst merfolk without being countered or overrun long before, game was yours anyway.

Conclusion: I will stay with two Mox and three of Shaman. Perhaps cut Shaman to two.


@ Gaka:
I´d like to see your list or at least know about your walker-setup.

@ Wilkin:
So how is it desireable to nuke both graveyards if you run cards with flashback, e.g. Lingering Souls and Cabal Therapy?
Shaman indeed is slow. But milling one card a turn is better than milling none. Ooze would be more of a sb card to me.

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I totally understand where you're coming from in terms of not wanting to drop moxen. That two mox/three shaman set up is identical to what I'm running, and it's been working well. I dropped the moxen initially, thinking the extra boost from shaman would allow me to cut them... but it doesn't. It's a totally different sort of acceleration, and both are perfectly reasonable. Late-game topdecks can be pretty bad with moxen, but hopefully you have any one of your engines or beatsticks on board and can afford one. If you have a Liliana out mox isn't a terrible topdeck, either. You know what you're discarding.


Right now the list I've settled on is...

1 Batterskull
2 Chrome Mox
2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Dark Confidant
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic

2 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Zealous Persecution

3 Cabal Therapy
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
2 Vindicate

3 Liliana of the Veil

2 Bayou
4 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
4 Scrubland
1 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath

And I'm still testing parts of the board, but am running this right now:

2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Humility
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Serenity
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Timely Reinforcements

I'm not totally sold on Serenity, Deed, or the reinforcements, with the straight BW build Timely was great and serenity was occasionally really useful, but the green splash might add toys that could replace them.

I was running Engineered Explosives for a time.

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Originally Posted by Valech

I won´t play without my Moxens anymore. The point is, that the manaacceleration of Deathrite Shaman only accelerates CC3+ cards. Unfortunatley we, or at least I, play mostly CC2 cards, namely Bob, Mystic, Bitterblossom, Canonist Sideboard, Abrupt Decay and Jitte. perhaps I forgot a few. Of course I like doing several things T2 like cc2 + discard/StoP but even more I love dropping a must-handle T1 (T1 = only-FoW-will-stop-you). Thats why I run two Mox. If you don´t draw them right away, you probably won´t in the rest of the game. If you draw 1 right away, chances are even smaller that you will draw the other one. If you start with both... well, then you are an unlucky man.
Of course I see the utility Shaman may provide, but saying topdecking him midgame is better then topdecking Mox doesn´t mean it´s good to topdeck him.
Even examples like your merfolk-match can´t convince me of him being worth a playset. If you were able to drop three creatures agsinst merfolk without being countered or overrun long before, game was yours anyway.

Conclusion: I will stay with two Mox and three of Shaman. Perhaps cut Shaman to two.


@ Gaka:
I´d like to see your list or at least know about your walker-setup.

@ Wilkin:
So how is it desireable to nuke both graveyards if you run cards with flashback, e.g. Lingering Souls and Cabal Therapy?
Shaman indeed is slow. But milling one card a turn is better than milling none. Ooze would be more of a sb card to me.

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I run Cabal Therapy but not Lingering Souls. Nuking both GY's are worth it if you can nullify your opponents creatures (like Goyf) or gameplan entirely like Dredge. I don't run Lingering Souls as I find it too many intensive for the amount of mana I run in my deck (23) and a lot of people in my meta run either Sulfur Elemental or Dread of Night. I already play a ton of 3 drops and I find Bitterblossom usually does the job.
As for the Mox argument, I can see both sides. I will say that since Hymn To Tourach isn't as good (with so much Misdirection around) it makes that turn 1 Chrome Mox play not as optimal. I still run Mox myself but the best plays I've done aren't Hymn anymore...it's a Thoughtseize and a Therapy turn 1...or Thoughtseize turn 1, Turn 2 Liliana.
Perhaps the Shaman can change it and be the Deadguy version of Noble Hierarch. Lol, too bad Abrupt Decay wasn't black/white. I wonder if Gatecrash is going to bring a 2 mana removal in black/white that's on par with Decay or Dreadbore.

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Originally Posted by Gaka

Deathrite isn't playable simply because it interacts with dredge. Yes, it can be slow against dredge, but game 1 against dredge is pretty shitty right now. Deathrite turns that game 1 from bad to possibility of winning. For a black manadork. Seems reasonable to me. It's playable because it's versatile.

He helps the original 56 along with his ramp, gives us some reach, and helps offset bob's lifeloss. It's reasonable for a single hybrid mana.

For barely doing anything other than slipping in a Bayou (maybe even a Dryad Arbor to facilitate more fodder for Cabal Therapy or Jitte) it's a good choice.



I totally understand where you're coming from in terms of not wanting to drop moxen. That two mox/three shaman set up is identical to what I'm running, and it's been working well. I dropped the moxen initially, thinking the extra boost from shaman would allow me to cut them... but it doesn't. It's a totally different sort of acceleration, and both are perfectly reasonable. Late-game topdecks can be pretty bad with moxen, but hopefully you have any one of your engines or beatsticks on board and can afford one. If you have a Liliana out mox isn't a terrible topdeck, either. You know what you're discarding.


Right now the list I've settled on is...

1 Batterskull
2 Chrome Mox
2 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Dark Confidant
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Stoneforge Mystic

2 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Zealous Persecution

3 Cabal Therapy
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
2 Vindicate

3 Liliana of the Veil

2 Bayou
4 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
4 Scrubland
1 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
1 Windswept Heath

And I'm still testing parts of the board, but am running this right now:

2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Humility
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Serenity
2 Diabolic Edict
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Timely Reinforcements

I'm not totally sold on Serenity, Deed, or the reinforcements, with the straight BW build Timely was great and serenity was occasionally really useful, but the green splash might add toys that could replace them.

I was running Engineered Explosives for a time.

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Yes Deathrite improves the match ups, like from completely unwinnable to a slight chance of winning. There was this one game against dredge where I won game 1, I had 2 deathrites in play putting the matchups in my favor.

As for the Moxen, I'll look if I'll test it in my build and see how it goes. Its been a long time since I last played with it though.

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Originally Posted by Wilkin

I run Cabal Therapy but not Lingering Souls. Nuking both GY's are worth it if you can nullify your opponents creatures (like Goyf) or gameplan entirely like Dredge. I don't run Lingering Souls as I find it too many intensive for the amount of mana I run in my deck (23) and a lot of people in my meta run either Sulfur Elemental or Dread of Night. I already play a ton of 3 drops and I find Bitterblossom usually does the job.
As for the Mox argument, I can see both sides. I will say that since Hymn To Tourach isn't as good (with so much Misdirection around) it makes that turn 1 Chrome Mox play not as optimal. I still run Mox myself but the best plays I've done aren't Hymn anymore...it's a Thoughtseize and a Therapy turn 1...or Thoughtseize turn 1, Turn 2 Liliana.
Perhaps the Shaman can change it and be the Deadguy version of Noble Hierarch. Lol, too bad Abrupt Decay wasn't black/white. I wonder if Gatecrash is going to bring a 2 mana removal in black/white that's on par with Decay or Dreadbore.

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Yeah, Misdirect would now be the SB of choice for blue players since it can hit Abrupt Decay making Hymn a whole lot worse to play. Yeah I'm praying for a decent 2cc removal for BW in Gatecrash and a very nice Orzhov Charm.

What do people use as their "scary big guy" in this deck? When I play Junk, Knight of the Reliquary is a perfect example.

I'm designing a Deadguy list (in case Junk fails me again) and I've got 2 slots open for bigger beats or higher cost. Given that I'm not playing Vial (so no Serra Avenger) and I'm trying to avoid graveyard useage (meaning no Lingering Souls or Tombstalker), the best choices I've seen so far are Vampire Nighthawk, Mirran Crusader, and Hero of Bladehold.

Does anyone have a preference (among those, or other choices) and why?

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Originally Posted by Mirrislegend

What do people use as their "scary big guy" in this deck? When I play Junk, Knight of the Reliquary is a perfect example.

I'm designing a Deadguy list (in case Junk fails me again) and I've got 2 slots open for bigger beats or higher cost. Given that I'm not playing Vial (so no Serra Avenger) and I'm trying to avoid graveyard useage (meaning no Lingering Souls or Tombstalker), the best choices I've seen so far are Vampire Nighthawk, Mirran Crusader, and Hero of Bladehold.

Does anyone have a preference (among those, or other choices) and why?

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You should really rethink no Lingering Souls, it's by far the best way to win in the deck. I can't imagine not running less than 3, and I'd only cut one if something better were to pop up. It's the best card against tempo decks and control decks who can't afford to counter it without the flashback biting on them. If they counter the flashback'd version, you got a 0-1, two if they force.

Also, I don't think you really need any "big scary guys" at all. If you're running bob, each card needs to pull weight at least equal to the amount of damage it will do you when you flip it, because you will.

I love LSouls, I really do. But my experiences with Junk have taught me that sometimes you need to put something on the board that just makes your opponent shit their britches. The dejected tone of voice and various colorful expressions that I've received after sticking a Knight of the Reliquary are just priceless.

LSouls does the same thing that the rest of the deck does. Trades raw power for card advantage and utility. But facing down a team of Geese and Goyfs with Confidants and Stoneforges is not exactly desirable from an defensive or an offensive perspective

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Originally Posted by Mirrislegend

I love LSouls, I really do. But my experiences with Junk have taught me that sometimes you need to put something on the board that just makes your opponent shit their britches. The dejected tone of voice and various colorful expressions that I've received after sticking a Knight of the Reliquary are just priceless.

LSouls does the same thing that the rest of the deck does. Trades raw power for card advantage and utility. But facing down a team of Geese and Goyfs with Confidants and Stoneforges is not exactly desirable from an defensive or an offensive perspective

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I'm running four copies of Mirran Crusader, who is a good meta call (if you can protect him -- I'm running Mom) and who is a house with Jitte. He's even better with Sword of War and Peace, but I've cut that for now. I'm on a phone at the moment, but I'll post my list soon.

Okay, so this is the list that I'm tentatively running for the SCG Open in Indy this weekend. I'm kind of torn on the discard package, specifically Tidehollow Sculler. I like that he holds a sword, and he's better in this list with Mother of Runes and Thalia...but even if I have to pay two mana for a discard spell, maybe it's better to deal with a card completely? I could pull him and split the slots with two regular discard spells (Inquisition) and maybe a pair of O-Rings or copies of Mana Tithe. I like Tithe for the WTF? factor, but maybe regular discard spells are better. I also could go with Hymn, but it's so much less devastating after turn two.

Also, I've only tested this a bit, but I'm liking Judge's Familiar so far. As has been discussed, the bird into Thalia is a big game early, and the flying is great with Jitte or other equipment.

4 Mother of Runes
4 Judge's Familiar
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Mirran Crusader

4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Batterskull

4 Scrubland
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Marsh Flats
2 Arid Mesa
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Plains
1 Swamp

SB
2 Duress
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Spectral Lynx
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Rest in Peace
1 Serenity
1 Warmth
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Oblivion Ring

I'm still tweaking the sideboard. I want to fit a Pithing Needle in there, maybe another sword, Rule of Law, and Manriki-Gusari -- probably switching out the Forge-Tenders and something else.

How has the ORLY owl been for you? That guy looks juicy in LD builds.

You make an excellent point about metagame calls: my meta is full of RUG, so my special threat needs to survive bolt. Hence, no Mirran Crusader or Vampire Nighthawk. Hero of Bladehold it is!

I've been playing Sculler for awhile now in a lower creature build than yours, and he's been an all star for me. Most decks that you really want to be taking cards from tend to ignore creatures, and the ones that do interact he can hold a sword or pull removal away from Stoneforge/Confidant.

And you're usually happier top decking one than a Hymn after turn 3.

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Originally Posted by scottjmorrow

Okay, so this is the list that I'm tentatively running for the SCG Open in Indy this weekend. I'm kind of torn on the discard package, specifically Tidehollow Sculler. I like that he holds a sword, and he's better in this list with Mother of Runes and Thalia...but even if I have to pay two mana for a discard spell, maybe it's better to deal with a card completely? I could pull him and split the slots with two regular discard spells (Inquisition) and maybe a pair of O-Rings or copies of Mana Tithe. I like Tithe for the WTF? factor, but maybe regular discard spells are better. I also could go with Hymn, but it's so much less devastating after turn two.

Also, I've only tested this a bit, but I'm liking Judge's Familiar so far. As has been discussed, the bird into Thalia is a big game early, and the flying is great with Jitte or other equipment.

4 Mother of Runes
4 Judge's Familiar
4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Mirran Crusader

4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Batterskull

4 Scrubland
3 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Marsh Flats
2 Arid Mesa
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Plains
1 Swamp

SB
2 Duress
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Spectral Lynx
3 Enlightened Tutor
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Rest in Peace
1 Serenity
1 Warmth
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Oblivion Ring

I'm still tweaking the sideboard. I want to fit a Pithing Needle in there, maybe another sword, Rule of Law, and Manriki-Gusari -- probably switching out the Forge-Tenders and something else.

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Well, Sculler is quite nice, a good example for a hatebear: solid body, solid utility. what bugs me is, that he really shows his full potential within vial builds. dropping him in your opponents draw step feels like playing a clique. also, you run quite some cc2 drops, why dont you run vial at all?

im curious about your cc1 drops. you run 12 of them, not counting the StoPs because they are rather reactive. Never get into trouble what you drop first? I think familiar is a bit misplaced because it feels like another kind of controle, aside from discarding-controle. i may be wrong.

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Originally Posted by Mirrislegend

How has the ORLY owl been for you? That guy looks juicy in LD builds.

You make an excellent point about metagame calls: my meta is full of RUG, so my special threat needs to survive bolt. Hence, no Mirran Crusader or Vampire Nighthawk. Hero of Bladehold it is!

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Honestly, if we you want a good 4-drop that lives through Bolt, go with Restoration Angel. Both Angel and Hero can get Dazed, but surprising a Delver is a big deal, and you can reset Stoneforge, Jötun Grunt (if you play it), and Sculler (if you want to switch cards), or, obviously, save a dude from removal. I ran three (along with three Aven Mindcensor) when I was playing a mono-white (non-D&T) build, and I enjoyed it. Also, it flies over the top of Tarmogoyf, which is important, and it carries a Jitte well.

As for Crusader, he's still sweet against RUG if you can protect him -- hence Mother of Runes. But running discard also gives you an idea of whether he'll live. Also, very importantly, note that Crusader kills in two swings with Jitte. Against a non-combo deck, dropping Mom into Stoneforge into Crusader is game over. Of course, that's living the dream...

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Originally Posted by Valech

Well, Sculler is quite nice, a good example for a hatebear: solid body, solid utility. what bugs me is, that he really shows his full potential within vial builds. dropping him in your opponents draw step feels like playing a clique. also, you run quite some cc2 drops, why dont you run vial at all?

im curious about your cc1 drops. you run 12 of them, not counting the StoPs because they are rather reactive. Never get into trouble what you drop first? I think familiar is a bit misplaced because it feels like another kind of controle, aside from discarding-controle. i may be wrong.

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Yeah, Vial is great, especially with so many two-drops. I just don't know what I'd cut for it. You can play around counter magic to some degree, so even though the tempo boost is awesome and I love screwing counters, I don't like being down a card, especially if I draw multiples. I like Judge's Familiar in its place for now because I anticipate having a harder time against combo, but maybe that's incorrect. Like I said, flying is sweet, and its tax/counter ability really puts a deck like RUG in a bind. Then again, Vialing in the bird to counter a spell seems amazing. Maybe I could daringly go to 20 lands and cut two more cards to run three?

I haven't had trouble in casting the one-drops yet, but I'm still getting acclimated to this build. I have 16 ways for T1 W and 13 for T1 B.

Re: control / discard / disruption, I liked the current numbers because it's eight disruptive dudes (bird + Thalia), eight discard spells (Sculler + Thoughtseize), eight means of card advantage (Stoneforge + Confidant), four protectors (Mom), four beaters (Crusader), and then the removal and equipment. It seemed like a good balance, but it easily could be off. I like that bird, Thalia, and Crusader all wear Jitte like champs.

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Originally Posted by Mirrislegend

How has the ORLY owl been for you? That guy looks juicy in LD builds.

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Oh, and the ORLY Owl seems solid, but I really haven't tested enough to know. (That's what this weekend is for!) I'm sure that s/he shines in LD builds, as you mentioned, so this isn't the most optimized home, but Thalia and Wasteland help. And I've gone back and forth on including a few Glowriders in the board for extra fun.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mirrislegend

How has the ORLY owl been for you? That guy looks juicy in LD builds.

You make an excellent point about metagame calls: my meta is full of RUG, so my special threat needs to survive bolt. Hence, no Mirran Crusader or Vampire Nighthawk. Hero of Bladehold it is!

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Considering Hero of Bladehold and Desecration Demon in my flex 2 slots. Lol, hoping Gatecrash gives me something good there. We'll see. I'm personally hoping for a WWBB 4/4 that when it comes into play destroys a mono colored permanent and has a "throwaway ability" like First strike.


Phyrexian Obliterator is in my current build. You can only really run him in a heavy black build. Against RUG or RU Delver, when I resolved him, it was gg. In one game against RU delver I had Obliterator equipped with Batterskull. Gain 9 life, thank you very much. Against creature decks he's insane. Sure there's always STP or Path to worry about but if they don't.... I beat affinity with him with SOFI on it, it didn't matter that he drew Etched Champion for 3 turns as they promptly died to the SOFI activation.

For scary finishers i prefair planeswalkers elspeth / sorin in a token version. Havent been able to pickup deathrites into the deck yet as im quite focused on standard atm. Also waiting a bit til i can get foiled out deathrites shamans :P