I'll share afterwards too. I'm really curious what everyone came up with.
But silkster doesn't need any extra advantages, so I'm holding onto tech until the decks are posted.
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I'll share afterwards too. I'm really curious what everyone came up with.
But silkster doesn't need any extra advantages, so I'm holding onto tech until the decks are posted.
No entry from silk still. I'll finish my work thing and post decks in a bit, with or without you. :tongue:
About Round 3: Berserker: Creatures can't block, creatures attack each turn if able, combat damage cannot be prevented, prevent all non-combat damage to players
I don't know if this clause is restrictive enough. IT looks like the meta from the end of our first season would perfectly fit into it. I Don't know if it is worth to play a round where the meta is already known...
Could we restrict it to creatures and lands only? (Or anything else that narrows the scope of cards we could use)
I would contratulate the people who create decks that effectively abuse the current restrictions and win without using creatures.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tylert
Also, I don't want to accidentally invalidate creature removal, which should be important this round. So I say we keep this as is.
Silk's too slow, so here's the decks for round 1.
Also, warm welcome to our newest player, Serguei!
DECKS FOR ROUND 1 OF SEASON 9: Deviant Legacy - Part 2
The rule for Canadian Backbuild: A loss nets you 3 points and a win nets you zero. You still play optimally to win. Your deck must win both OTP and OTD against the Canadians (Snow-Covered Forest, Snow-Covered Mountain, Grizzly Bears, Balduvian Bears).
Our entries:
1. Asthereal (TO): Grove of the Burnwillows, Mountain, Punishing Fire, Volcanic Dragon
2. Wrath of Pie: Timberline Ridge, Helix Pinnacle, Mugging, Mugging
3. Reeplcheep: Pine Barrens, Deathmark, Deathmark, Helix Pinnacle
4. FTW: Veldt, Helix Pinnacle, Traproot Kami, Green Scarab
5. dte: Wirewood Symbiote, Ketria Triome, Saprazzan Legate, Saprazzan Legate
6. jhhdk: Secluded Steppe, Secluded Steppe, Circle of protection: Green, Mesa Pegasus
7. H: Swamp, Reaver Drone, Deathmark, Deathmark
8. alphastryk: Subterranean Hangar, Glistening Oil, Diamond Kaleidoscope, Helix Pinnacle
9. Tylert: Forest, Sulfur vent, Budoka gardener, Jade mage
10. GoblinSmashmaster: Snow-Covered Forest, Snow-Covered Mountain, Bear Cub, Ayula, Queen Among Bears
11. Serguei: Subterranean Hangar, Perish, Mental agony, Acolyte of Xathrid
12. maxx!: Karplusan Forest, Molten Slagheap, Elvish Archers, Dead Ringers
Please post your scores and cross-check with the opponents.
I'll also be building a new Google Spreadsheet for the season, so you can enter your scores there as well.
URL: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing
5. dte: Wirewood Symbiote, Ketria Triome, Saprazzan Legate, Saprazzan Legate
Me, hating on mountains and their scary slopes.
And sporting my favourite insect :)
1. Asthereal (TO): Grove of the Burnwillows, Mountain, Punishing Fire, Volcanic Dragon
0. The merfolks eat dragons that stay in hands at breakfast. not a great start.
2. Wrath of Pie: Timberline Ridge, Helix Pinnacle, Mugging, Mugging
6. You mugg the insect and take forever to win.
6
3. Reeplcheep: Pine Barrens, Deathmark, Deathmark, Helix Pinnacle
6. You kill the insect and win slowly.
12
4. FTW: Veldt, Helix Pinnacle, Traproot Kami, Green Scarab
6. You get a scarab that protects you from other isects.
18
5. dte: Wirewood Symbiote, Ketria Triome, Saprazzan Legate, Saprazzan Legate
Me.
6. jhhdk: Secluded Steppe, Secluded Steppe, Circle of protection: Green, Mesa Pegasus
6. you've got you insect repellant.
24
7. H: Swamp, Reaver Drone, Deathmark, Deathmark
6. Kill the insect, kill me.
30
8. alphastryk: Subterranean Hangar, Glistening Oil, Diamond Kaleidoscope, Helix Pinnacle
6. Insecticide oil for the win.
36
9. Tylert: Forest, Sulfur vent, Budoka gardener, Jade mage
6. your creatures beat the insect.
42
10. GoblinSmashmaster: Snow-Covered Forest, Snow-Covered Mountain, Bear Cub, Ayula, Queen Among Bears
6. You play the scariest card, a basic mountain. But I cannot beat a 4/4.
48
11. Serguei: Subterranean Hangar, Perish, Mental agony, Acolyte of Xathrid
6. Perish on a lone symbiote does the trick. And welcome!
54
12. maxx!: Karplusan Forest, Molten Slagheap, Elvish Archers, Dead Ringers
6. Elvish archer >> Wirewood symbiote, at least here.
60.
That went much better than expected!
And much better than my other decks:
Noble hierarch, rainbow vale, hunt the hunter, hunt the hunter
and Homarid shaman, sand silos, Svyelunite Temple, Svyelunite Temple (that one was because I could do a full fallen empires deck, and I really do love fallen empire as an extension).
Sapprazan legate. Nice find.
Here are the decks I did not play:
Subteranean hangar
Slitherhead
Deathmark
Deathmark
rushwood grove
Mercadian bazaar
Sylvan advocate
headlong rush
Fountain of cho
Lotus petal
Trueheart duelist
djeru's resolve
Forest
Forest
Safehold elite
setessan skirmisher
Plaine
Mana tithe
Mana tithe
memnite
Cloudcrest Lake
Cloudcrest Lake
onction
Brimaz vanguard
Fountain of cho
Thraben valiant
Hope charm
Assaillant avemain
Plaine
Plaine
Thraben valiant
Rune de garde verte
4. FTW: Veldt, Helix Pinnacle, Traproot Kami, Green Scarab
tl;dr - The fastest I can possibly win is the upkeep of Turn 202 (after adding the 100th counter on turn 201).
Unless you have a Forest, my creature is a 0/0 and I'm completely defenseless to any threat.
If you have both a Forest and green permanent, then I have a 2/3 reach wall.
1. Asthereal (TO): Punishing Fire quickly kills me. LL 6-0
2. Wrath of Pie: Ah, the mirror. Well played. WL 3-3
3. Reeplcheep: Whoa, what is this speedy aggro deck that wins before turn 110? LL 6-0
5. dte: Forest + green creature, good tech. WW 0-6
6. jhhdk: No forests, so my wall is a 0/0. LL 6-0
7. H: Yikes, a fatty! LL 6-0
8. alphastryk: Another speedy aggro deck. LL 6-0
9. Tylert: Forest + green creatures, and you can't even go wide with multiple tokens. Nice deck. WW 0-6
10. GoblinSmashmaster: Luckily I have Green Scarab instead of Green Ward so your 4/4 smashes me. LL 6-0
11. Serguei: Welcome! Cool deck. You need 41 mana to kill me, which means you win well before turn 100. LL 6-0
12. maxx!: If you played Taiga then I'd be in trouble. As is, I can't stop Archers. LL 6-0
51 points (5 wins, 17 losses)
I see I failed to produce the slowest deck :laugh:. Who knew golfishing on turn 109 was too fast! Also, My removal was not narrow enough clearly.
1. Asthereal (TO): Grove of the Burnwillows, Mountain, Punishing Fire, Volcanic Dragon
I see you brought a 3 card blind deck. However, Grove + Fire wins before my Pinnacle is completed (my goldfish is turn 109). LL
6 points
2. Wrath of Pie: Timberline Ridge, Helix Pinnacle, Mugging, Mugging
I see you have constructed an even slower Pinnacle deck. WW
0 points
3. Reeplcheep: Pine Barrens, Deathmark, Deathmark, Helix Pinnacle
Your Pinnacle is completed on your turn 101, but I cannot complete mine until my turn 109 thanks to my terrible color filtering Kaleidoscope. LL
6 points
4. FTW: Veldt, Helix Pinnacle, Traproot Kami, Green Scarab
I see you also come rom the slow Pinnacle school, but yours is slower than mine. WW
0 points
5. dte: Wirewood Symbiote, Ketria Triome, Saprazzan Legate, Saprazzan Legate
My removal is too good. Oil kills the Symbiote and your Legates are blanks. Nice deck. WW
0 points
6. jhhdk: Secluded Steppe, Secluded Steppe, Circle of protection: Green, Mesa Pegasus
My removal is too good. Oil kills the Pegasus. WW
0 points
7. H: Swamp, Reaver Drone, Deathmark, Deathmark
My removal is too good. Oil kills the Drone. WW
0 points
8. alphastryk: Subterranean Hangar, Glistening Oil, Diamond Kaleidoscope, Helix Pinnacle
This is me!
9. Tylert: Forest, Sulfur vent, Budoka gardener, Jade mage
Once again, my removal is too good. WW
0 points
10. GoblinSmashmaster: Snow-Covered Forest, Snow-Covered Mountain, Bear Cub, Ayula, Queen Among Bears
I love the idea here of being as close as possible to the deck we all have to beat. EDIT: Because you play to win and make a 4/4, Glistening Oil can't get rid of it your threats before I get poisoned. LL
6 points
11. Serguei: Subterranean Hangar, Perish, Mental agony, Acolyte of Xathrid
I don't think I can beat a discard spell, so Mental Agony takes away my ability to win. EDIT: However, I can hold onto my Oil and kill your Acolyte with it to force draws. DD
2 points
12. maxx!: Karplusan Forest, Molten Slagheap, Elvish Archers, Dead Ringers
Foiled again by my removal. WW
0 points
total: 20 points. Clearly my removal was not nearly narrow enough, and I also was not the slowest deck. Whoops!
1. Asthereal (TO): Grove of the Burnwillows, Mountain, Punishing Fire, Volcanic Dragon
2. Wrath of Pie: Timberline Ridge, Helix Pinnacle, Mugging, Mugging
3. Reeplcheep: Pine Barrens, Deathmark, Deathmark, Helix Pinnacle
4. FTW: Veldt, Helix Pinnacle, Traproot Kami, Green Scarab
5. dte: Wirewood Symbiote, Ketria Triome, Saprazzan Legate, Saprazzan Legate
6. jhhdk: Secluded Steppe, Secluded Steppe, Circle of protection: Green, Mesa Pegasus
7. H: Swamp, Reaver Drone, Deathmark, Deathmark
8. alphastryk: Subterranean Hangar, Glistening Oil, Diamond Kaleidoscope, Helix Pinnacle
9. Tylert: Forest, Sulfur vent, Budoka gardener, Jade mage
10. GoblinSmashmaster: Snow-Covered Forest, Snow-Covered Mountain, Bear Cub, Ayula, Queen Among Bears
11. Serguei: Subterranean Hangar, Perish, Mental agony, Acolyte of Xathrid
12. maxx!: Karplusan Forest, Molten Slagheap, Elvish Archers, Dead Ringers
1. Asthereal: I think I can't kill you before you kill all my boys. 6-0 --> 6.
2. Wrath of Pie: You can't cast mugging two turns in a row. That means that I nned to play Gardener first, You kill it, then I can play jade mage the turn after you can't kill it and I can make a 1/1 to win... well loose 0-6 --> 6
3. Reeplcheep: I can't play jade mage and have it survive a turn to make a 1/1. I loose both! 6-0 --> 12
4. FTW: OTD on turn 4, you'll cast Green scarab on your 0/1 and I won't be able to kill you anymore. Pinnacle will win this. 0-6 --> 18
5. dte: Nice tech. 0-6 --> 18
6. jhhdk: I'll do first damage in both games but you will hold at bay my 2/1. If I attack with my 1/1 you block, If I don't, You stay in defense. 2-2 --> 20
7. H. You kill my threats and win. 6-0 --> 26
8. Alphastryk: You kill my 3 creatures towards T11 on the draw. 6-0 --> 32
9. Me.
10. Goblinsmashmaster: A 4/4 is too big for me. Can't Kill it and survice. 6-0 --> 38
11. Serguei: I Can win OTP barely by playing jade mage first. You have to Mental agony before using perish. Once you have used mental agony, I can make a 3/3 EOT and as you are at 12, I have 4 turns to kill you that is just enough. OTD, You win just before dying. 3/3 --> 41
12. Maxx!: I can't commit more than one creature to win. But you are allways the first one attacking because of first strike you win the race and I can't block. 6-0 --> 47
Total = 47
VS Serguei
T1 = Vents. Hangar.
T2 = Forest, Mage. H1.
T3 = 20/18. H2.
T4 = 20/16. H3.
T5 = 20/14. H4.
T6 = 20/12. Mental agony 18/12, 1/1 EOT.
T7 = 18/9. H1.
T8 = 18/6. H2.
T9 = 18/3. H3.
T10 = 18/0. Perish.
I first found the deathmark deck. Which was clearly meta dependent... but It meant that if I could play a green creature I'd loose. So I went to sylvan advocate (2/3 vigilance) + first strike which is nice.
Then I realized a 2/3 would be too good. and went to Trueheart duelist + Djeru's resolve. FInally I found that 3 2/2 bodies were too good and went to a green persist strategy while also finding Brimaz vanguard + Onction. I choose to play a variation of the Two 2/(1 or 2) bodies + a 1/1 that was using green creature to be beaten by anti green decks...
Some decks could have been good depending on the meta: 2/1 vigilance + Protection from green, 1/1 for 0 + two mana tithe, the deathmark deck. But knowing that, Playing lands that can't store mana and green creatures was an easy choice.
I failed to find something that could only win vs 2 2/2 or a mountain thought like the sapprazan legate or the defender that has a toughness equal to the number of forests in play.
My worst card that was usefull was anoint. Used on brimaz vanguard, it could make it trade twice vs bears while getting a 1/1.
Hahaha these decks are all hilarious.
When you thought you had the slowest, I was curious if you used some slow filtering tech to make it harder to get mana. Kaleidoscope is a great find! I had a version with an off-color land + Chromatic Sphere (delays 2 turns), but that left only 1 slot to beat 2 bears. I thought that would mean playing a card that stops too many other decks, so I went with my "faster" version with worse defenses.Quote:
Originally Posted by alphastryk
Love the Fallen Empires throwback. I wanted to do something with Orcs but it didn't quite come together.Quote:
Originally Posted by dte
Legate is great tech!Quote:
Originally Posted by dte
I also tried out decks using threats that could only be cast against the Canadians. There are many variations, using Deepwood Legate, or relying on colored mana production from Exotic Orchard or Vesuva. But these ideas all fell flat when I considered the Canadians could just do nothing to draw. Playing a generic 1/1 is a great solution to that! I like that you also played a Forest-Mountain just to catch the other hate decks too. Smart deck!
I'll post my other decks
Control: Grove of the Burnwillows, Rishadan Port, Bazaar Trader, Sorrow's Path
This was my cheesy build using the worst card in Magic, but it is actually OP and beats too much.
Aggro: Sacred Foundry, Snow-Covered Forest, Arctic Foxes, Wall of Hope
Wall of Hope just barely survives 2 bears, and Arctic Foxes only has evasion against 2/2 fatties in snow decks... Instead of going slow, this was my attempt at most fragile win condition + most fragile defense.
Control: Veldt, Vesuva, Helix Pinnacle, Custody Battle
Custody Battle hilariously holds off 2 bears without letting you ever attack back. But this speeds up Helix Pinnacle a lot in mirrors.
Pillow Fort: Shivan Gorge, Mercadian Bazaar, Thespian's Stage, Glade Watcher
Shivan Gorge is way too fast
Prison: Rushwood Grove, Meekstone, Muraganda Petroglyphs, Helix Pinnacle
This only stops vanilla creatures, but it's a fast Helix Pinnacle.
You should lose (win?) that one: your removal also gives infect, so you take 4+3+2+1=10 poison counters, both OTP and OTD.Quote:
Originally Posted by alphastryk
Also, quite a lot of pinnacles!
Aha because GoblinSmashmaster has to play to win and lead with Ayula then make it a 4/4. You're right, updating results.Quote:
Originally Posted by dte
I only know about the Kaleidoscope from the "joy" of getting one in a Visions pack once.Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
Here's a few of my other terrible ideas:
I should maybe played this horrible wall plan instead of Glistening Oil
Fountain of Cho, One-Eyed Scarecrow, Diamond Kaleidoscope, Helix Pinnacle
I also had some decks that looped Rath's Edge with a storage land and Wheel of Sun and Moon but they were very slightly faster than the Helix Pinnacle decks.
2. Wrath of Pie: Timberline Ridge, Helix Pinnacle, Mugging, Mugging
1. Asthereal (TO): Grove of the Burnwillows, Mountain, Punishing Fire, Volcanic Dragon LL - You win way too fast for this format.
3. Reeplcheep: Pine Barrens, Deathmark, Deathmark, Helix Pinnacle LL - I debated something like this, then realized that being the slower Helix Pinnacle hand was worth way more than the narrower removal spell.
4. FTW: Veldt, Helix Pinnacle, Traproot Kami, Green Scarab WL - This is way more clever than my entry and probably what I should have played.
5. dte: Wirewood Symbiote, Ketria Triome, Saprazzan Legate, Saprazzan Legate WW
6. jhhdk: Secluded Steppe, Secluded Steppe, Circle of protection: Green, Mesa Pegasus WW
7. H: Swamp, Reaver Drone, Deathmark, Deathmark WW
8. alphastryk: Subterranean Hangar, Glistening Oil, Diamond Kaleidoscope, Helix Pinnacle LL
9. Tylert: Forest, Sulfur vent, Budoka gardener, Jade mage LL - I can't mug three creatures.
10. GoblinSmashmaster: Snow-Covered Forest, Snow-Covered Mountain, Bear Cub, Ayula, Queen Among Bears WD - Staring contests are what Backbuild are all about.
11. Serguei: Subterranean Hangar, Perish, Mental agony, Acolyte of Xathrid DD
12. maxx!: Karplusan Forest, Molten Slagheap, Elvish Archers, Dead Ringers WW
3d9l = 30 points
I started with the classic Ensnaring Bridge/Copper Tablet strategy, but it won too fast and I did not expect creatures to be relevant (turns out I was wrong), thus the double Mugging with Helix Pinnacle. I dismissed Deathmark because being slower in the Helix Pinnacle mirror was going to be important.
I also considered the hilarious of Death of a Thousand Stings as a win condition, but couldn't find anything to make it workable.
Man you wanted to play a 2/3??? that is way too strong.Quote:
Originally Posted by alphastryk
It can't attack! I'm basically playing a Moat, which also got crossed off my list for being too good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tylert
1. Asthereal (TO): Grove of the Burnwillows, Mountain, Punishing Fire, Volcanic Dragon
Drat! Your removal is just too good and I am unfortunately defenseless against recuring burn to the face. 6 - 0
2. Wrath of Pie: Timberline Ridge, Helix Pinnacle, Mugging, Mugging
Drat! Your removal kills my offence and you eventually win with Helix. 6 - 0
3. Reeplcheep: Pine Barrens, Deathmark, Deathmark, Helix Pinnacle
Again my beater dies to removal and helix goes the distance. 6 - 0
4. FTW: Veldt, Helix Pinnacle, Traproot Kami, Green Scarab
Your defence is slightly ineffective and I manage to win already on turn 22ish. 0 - 6
5. dte: Wirewood Symbiote, Ketria Triome, Saprazzan Legate, Saprazzan Legate
I am able to win, but I am a bit curious how you win against the Canadian bears? Edit: i figured it out. I forgot the bear deck had a mountain. 0 - 6
6. jhhdk: Secluded Steppe, Secluded Steppe, Circle of protection: Green, Mesa Pegasus
Myself
7. H: Swamp, Reaver Drone, Deathmark, Deathmark
Your removal kills my offence and I am utterly defenceless against Reaver Drone. 6 - 0
8. alphastryk: Subterranean Hangar, Glistening Oil, Diamond Kaleidoscope, Helix Pinnacle
Your removal kills my offence and Helix gets there on turn 400ish. 6 - 0
9. Tylert: Forest, Sulfur vent, Budoka gardener, Jade mage
It's a pretty close race, but seems like you'll win no matter how well I play. 2 - 2 Edit forgot I can block even if you can't.
10. GoblinSmashmaster: Snow-Covered Forest, Snow-Covered Mountain, Bear Cub, Ayula, Queen Among Bears
Impressively narrow hate deck. You really show those bears who's boss, unfortunately my deck is too stronk for you. 0 - 6
11. Serguei: Subterranean Hangar, Perish, Mental agony, Acolyte of Xathrid
My deck is stronger than yours. I resolve all my threats before you can resolve mental agony and my 1/1 is faster than your Acolyte. 0 - 6
12. maxx!: Karplusan Forest, Molten Slagheap, Elvish Archers, Dead Ringers
My defence holds up against your onslaught and your removal is too narrow to be effective (amazingly Narrow! I should have gone with green
forestwalk creature instead and I could've had draws here).
OTD:Quote:
Originally Posted by jhhdk
T1 = Vents. Steppes.
T2 = Forest, Sage. Steppes.
T3 = Mage 20/18. Pegasus.
T4 = attack, you trade with sage, 1/1. COP.
T5 = 20/15. COP.
T6 = 20/12.
I can't damage you anymore.
So it's 2-2.
Saprazzan legate is free because he has a forest and his opponent has a mountain.Quote:
Originally Posted by jhhdk
He can attack with one legate and keep a 1/1 and a 1/3 in defense to kill one bear, and after that block the other one for ever.
Also importantly, the Canadians can't hold the Mountain to force a draw because the 1/1 wins it then.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tylert
AyulaBearmaster Results for Round "UnBearable"
1. Asthereal (TO): Grove of the Burnwillows, Mountain, Punishing Fire, Volcanic Dragon
Removal :( 6-0
2. Wrath of Pie: Timberline Ridge, Helix Pinnacle, Mugging, Mugging
Removal :( 4-1
3. Reeplcheep: Pine Barrens, Deathmark, Deathmark, Helix Pinnacle
Removal :( 6-0
4. FTW: Veldt, Helix Pinnacle, Traproot Kami, Green Scarab
Grizzly smash! 0-6
5. dte: Wirewood Symbiote, Ketria Triome, Saprazzan Legate, Saprazzan Legate
Grizzly smash! 0-6
6. jhhdk: Secluded Steppe, Secluded Steppe, Circle of protection: Green, Mesa Pegasus
Protection :( 6-0
7. H: Swamp, Reaver Drone, Deathmark, Deathmark
Removal :( 6-0
8. alphastryk: Subterranean Hangar, Glistening Oil, Diamond Kaleidoscope, Helix Pinnacle
Poison smash! 0-6
9. Tylert: Forest, Sulfur vent, Budoka gardener, Jade mage
2/2 beats 1/1 0-6
10. GoblinSmashmaster: Snow-Covered Forest, Snow-Covered Mountain, Bear Cub, Ayula, Queen Among Bears
That's me, showing the bears who's boss!
11. Serguei: Subterranean Hangar, Perish, Mental agony, Acolyte of Xathrid
Removal :( 6-0
12. maxx!: Karplusan Forest, Molten Slagheap, Elvish Archers, Dead Ringers
Grizzly smash! 0-6
Total: 34 points
3. Reeplcheep: Pine Barrens, Deathmark, Deathmark, Helix Pinnacle
tl;dr - I lose to any colourless, red, blue, black a or non creature threat that wins before turn 102. I thought the specificity was worth being faster in the helix mirror (the Uber slow lands are all allied colours). I was wrong.
1. Asthereal (TO): Non creature threat. LL 6-0
2. Wrath of Pie: lose the mirror to Uber slow lands as mentioned WW 0-6
3. Reeplcheep: me
5. dte: Lose the mirror to Uber slow lands. WW 0-6
6. jhhdk: No un deathmarkable threats WW 0-6
7. H: Deathmark pays off LL 0-6
8. alphastryk: Lose the mirror to slow filter. WW 0-6
9. Tylert: no undeathmarkable threatsWW 0-6
10. GoblinSmashmaster: No un deathmarkable threats. WW 0-6
11. Serguei: Hello! Undeathmarkable threat that wins before t100. LL 6-0
12. maxx!: No un deathmarkable threat WW 0-6
Didn’t think too deeply about this one and it showed. 18 points.
maxx!: Karplusan Forest, Molten Slagheap, Elvish Archers, Dead Ringers
1. Asthereal (TO): Grove of the Burnwillows, Mountain, Punishing Fire, Volcanic Dragon
My Archers can't survive Punishing Fire, and it eventually kills me. 0-6 -> 6 points
2. Wrath of Pie: Timberline Ridge, Helix Pinnacle, Mugging, Mugging
My Archers get mugged and I lose after 200ish turns. 0-6 -> 6 points
3. Reeplcheep: Pine Barrens, Deathmark, Deathmark, Helix Pinnacle
Deathmark is live, my elves are dead, and Pinnacle gets there. 0-6 -> 6 points
4. FTW: Veldt, Helix Pinnacle, Traproot Kami, Green Scarab
I sent in my deck with a Snow-Covered Forest instead of the painland, and then while we were waiting for silk I sent in this new version. I thought people might play symmetric damage (Copper Tablet, etc.), and thought the 1 damage would help. Oops. 6-0 -> 0 points
5. dte: Wirewood Symbiote, Ketria Triome, Saprazzan Legate, Saprazzan Legate
Taiga would've been so much better than Karplusan Forest, haha. Go figure. 6-0 -> 0 points
6. jhhdk: Secluded Steppe, Secluded Steppe, Circle of protection: Green, Mesa Pegasus
CoP: Green is too strong for me. 0-6 -> 6 points
7. H: Swamp, Reaver Drone, Deathmark, Deathmark
Playing a green creature is really paying off. 0-6 -> 6 points
8. alphastryk: Subterranean Hangar, Glistening Oil, Diamond Kaleidoscope, Helix Pinnacle
Glistening Oil kills my only threat. Praise Helix. 0-6 -> 6 points
9. Tylert: Forest, Sulfur vent, Budoka gardener, Jade mage
Oh no. I win the race if you only ever play 1 creature, and if you play both then I can Dead Ringers them. You'll get a third body left behind, but it can't beat or race my Archers. 6-0 -> 0 points
10. GoblinSmashmaster: Snow-Covered Forest, Snow-Covered Mountain, Bear Cub, Ayula, Queen Among Bears
Da Bears. Thankfully, first strike doesn't apply when creatures fight. One of your bears fights my Elves, and after they kill each other Dead Ringers stays dead. 0-6 -> 6 points
11. Serguei: Subterranean Hangar, Perish, Mental agony, Acolyte of Xathrid
Welcome! Really clever to use discard to prevent a bear from dodging Perish. Fortunately for me, Perish kills my only threat and then I die ever so slowly. 0-6 -> 6 points
12. maxx!: Karplusan Forest, Molten Slagheap, Elvish Archers, Dead Ringers
This is me :]
6+6+6+0+0+6+6+6+0+6+6 = 48
This round was super fun. Looks like a lot of people saw the value of green creatures (because a lot of people played green hosers). Also lots of Helix Pinnacles.
Here's what I didn't submit:
Centaur Garden, Dreadship Reef, Flooded Woodlands, Helix Pinnacle
Helix Pinnacle, but wins most Helix Pinnacle mirrors. Glad I didn't run this. Hypothetical Score: 24
Hickory Woodlot, Battlefield Forge, Roar of the Kha, An-Havva Constable
Me trying to play something that resembles a green 2/2 vs nongreen creatures. Same results as my submission, except I think I also get a draw instead of a win vs Tylert. Hypothetical Score: 50
Kazandu Refuge, Snow-Covered Forest, Grizzly Bears, Disciple of the Old Ways
My deck that came the closest to the deck to beat. I think this only beats dte as-is, and would be a clean sweep with Taiga. The Tylert match is close but I think the extra body lets him race me no matter what I do. Hypothetical Score: 60
Irrigation Ditch, Saprazzan Skerry, Intrepid Hero, Muraganda Petroglyphs
The Meekstone version is straight up better vs this field, but this version matches up better (worse?) vs Memnite. Deathmark hitting white creatures helps a lot. Hypothetical Score: 48
I overvalued life totals for racing (opting for painlands, etc.) and undervalued basic land types. Lifegain scared me off the Disciple of the Old Ways deck. Oops.
I think Dead Ringers is too narrow to actually beat you. You just have to lead with Ayula, and then if I ever play my creature, you play the Bear Cub and make them fight, leaving you with only Ayula. Dead Ringers requires 2 targets to cast, and it's a sorcery, so there's no time when you'll have 2 bears in play at once. I have to play Archers or you'll just kill me with Ayula, and whenever I do then you can trade the Bear Cub for Archers.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoblinSmashmaster
In retrospect, this thought process of being almost exactly the target deck is probably the best plan here because you'll almost always lose to the same things that beat that deck. So maybe its as simple as:Quote:
Originally Posted by maxx!
Snow-Covered Forest, Snow-Covered Mountain, Grizzly Bears, Disciple of the Old Ways
Although can the Canadians force a draw there? They sit back, if you ever attack with the first striker then they double block and it turns fully into a staring contest. I think it has to be:
Snow-Covered Forest, Snow-Covered Mountain, Disciple of the Old Ways, Disciple of the Old Ways
I don't think either of those decks can win OTD, because the bears get to attack you first.Quote:
Originally Posted by alphastryk
OTD
T1: land, land
T2: bear, dotow
T3: bear attacks
If you block and trade, then the bears make the same attack next turn before you can untap R. You can force the draw, but if you wait to untap then you can't ever win. The bears are ahead in the race, and won't ever have to block. If you don't attack, then neither do they, and you stare. If you attack, they attack back and kill you a turn before you kill them.
If instead you don't block on turn 2, then you're still down in the life total race, and the bears can just sit back and wait for you to attack. Whenever you do attack, the bears double block a single DotOW, take 2 damage, and now it's 18 to 18 with one creature for each of you, and they can win that race too. And again, if you opt not to race, then they don't attack either.
The 1 life you can gain from a land is enough to change the math by a turn, so now the onus is on the bears to attack or lose the race, and you get favorable blocks.
Interesting, I did not realize the life gain from the land was that critical. Its hard to skate so close to the deck you have to beat and still beat it.Quote:
Originally Posted by maxx!
My final take then would be something like Taiga, Kazandu Refuge, Grizzly Bears, Disciple of the Old Ways
or maybe Snow-Covered Forest, Snow-Covered Mountain, Highland Game, Disciple of the Old Ways
That way you have both a Forest and a Mountain while still gaining the life to win the race.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jhhdk
Dead Ringers is indeed an incredible removal in this format!
better than forestwalk, you have snow-covered forestwalk with Rime Dryad. It was in my first submission before realizing that a vanilla green 1/1 was enough.
I don't think it's possible for me to beat you, Timberline Ridge is really bad at untapping so you just wait for me to cast Pinnacle/add a tower counter to cast your Bears and get one out of Mugging range, which leads to you winning, thus we stare.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoblinSmashmaster
I think he's right. You can add Pinnacle counters at EOT, so you should be able to both tick up and always intervene before there are two bears.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie
Example
You - Pass with land untapped
Gobbo - Do nothing. EOT you add a counter to Helix
You - Land is tapped
Gobbo - play a bear
You - Mugging kills bear before the 2nd one lands
OR
You - Pass with land untapped
Gobbo - Plays a bear. You don't tick up.
You - Mugging the bear
There's never a safe window to play out both bears before you can remove one.
I think it depends on who goes first. When GS goes first, WoP never has a safe window to play Helix. GS plays a land, then if WoP plays Helix, GS can play a bear on his next turn. WoP’s garbage land stays tapped, then GS can play his second bear. So WoP never plays Helix on the draw. 4-1?Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
Hello all thanks for the fun
Perish was definitively a too strong removal
My deck Subterranean Hangar, Perish, Mental agony, Acolyte of Xathrid
1. Asthereal (TO): Grove of the Burnwillows, Mountain, Punishing Fire, Volcanic Dragon
Punishing fire is definitively too strong LL 6pts
2. Wrath of Pie: Timberline Ridge, Helix Pinnacle, Mugging, Mugging
You can hold a mugging to kill the acolyte and force the draw DDQuote:
Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie
2 points
3. Reeplcheep: Pine Barrens, Deathmark, Deathmark, Helix Pinnacle
Acolyte is faster than helix WW 0 points
4. FTW: Veldt, Helix Pinnacle, Traproot Kami, Green Scarab
Acolyte is faster than helix WW 0 points
5. dte: Wirewood Symbiote, Ketria Triome, Saprazzan Legate, Saprazzan Legate
I kill your symbiote then you cannot cast anything anymore WW 0 points
6. jhhdk: Secluded Steppe, Secluded Steppe, Circle of protection: Green, Mesa Pegasus
Your Pegasus is definitively faster than acolyte and I cannot kill it LL 6points
7. H: Swamp, Reaver Drone, Deathmark, Deathmark
It is just a race here because we cannot deal with the threat of the other and reaver is way faster than acolyte LL 6points
8. alphastryk: Subterranean Hangar, Glistening Oil, Diamond Kaleidoscope, Helix Pinnacle
DD 2 pointsQuote:
Originally Posted by alphastryk
9. Tylert: Forest, Sulfur vent, Budoka gardener, Jade mage
WL 3pointsQuote:
Originally Posted by Tylert
10. GoblinSmashmaster: Snow-Covered Forest, Snow-Covered Mountain, Bear Cub, Ayula, Queen Among Bears
WW 0 points
12. maxx!: Karplusan Forest, Molten Slagheap, Elvish Archers, Dead Ringers
WW 0 points
Total 25 points Not too good for a first
I will do better on the next rounds ;)
Fixed my incorrect results, apparently my brain is slower than my land.
Just remembered that Loxodon Peacekeeper is a thing, issue is finding a compatible win condition/card that makes the Peacekeeper actually win against the Canadians.
And here I thought even a 0/3 Wall of Hope was too strong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tylert
Rime Dryad is a card I was worried about. It wrecks my Kami strategy.Quote:
Originally Posted by dte
One of my alternates was designed around it: Sacred Foundry, Snow-Covered Forest, Arctic Foxes, Wall of Hope.
Both land types and Snow Forests specifically for Rime Dryad. But I thought Wall of Hope might be too OP. The 1/1 Foxes would have gotten 52 points here, only beating the clever Acolyte of Xathrid and drawing vs Mesa Pegasus and Tylert.
I just realized replacing Foxes with Rime Dryad would have scored 62, drawing vs Tylert and losing to everything else, but I never considered it.
Hero's good tech I never thought of. Losing to basically any removal at all means it's easier for opponents to break the lock and also easier to lose vs Helix Pinnacle. I guess the version with Meekstone and Helix Pinnacle would have scored 54 here, only beating the slowest Helix Pinnacle mirrors and losing to everything else.Quote:
Originally Posted by maxx!
Would it not work with Helix Pinnacle? Peacekeeper stops them from attacking you. Maybe it works too well though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie
Best peacekeeper deck is probably with Helix Pinnacle:
Veldt, Ancient Ziggurat, Loxodon Peacekeeper, Helix Pinnacle
Its still worse than the narrower walls but not a bad plan
Sorry I missed this. I had been checking each week, and then I bought on house last Wednesday (the 13th) and with moving stuff and setting up internet I completely forgot about this. I really couldn't think of much. All I had had in mind was the 200+ turn clock with a depletion land and Helix Pinnacle, then maybe a wall to survive. So at least I (from my perspective) I wasn't sitting on something I was really excited about and missed the chance. Though I was quite excited about this round (it's name even calls out to me), but I didn't have time to do a proper search into it.
Looking at the decks, I'm most impressed by GoblinSmashmaster's bear deck. But I have a few questions.
If Smashmaster goes first, I think this is a draw. If Wrath casts Helix Pinnacle, then Smashmaster will have time to make an unkillable 4/4. So Wrath can't make the Pinnacle, and Smashmaster can't make any bears or they die.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoblinSmashmaster
For this one Smashmaster makes Ayula and tries to win. If maxx! makes Archers, then fight mode will trade off a bear for a 2/1 and the Dead Ringers is never able to catch anything.Quote:
Helix Pinnacle is the obvious solution, but I was hoping for something with life total manipulation, ideally being really slow but winning at just enough life against the Bears. Probably doesn't exist though.Quote:
Originally Posted by alphastryk
Congrats on the house!Quote:
Originally Posted by silkster
That's quite the reason :)
Otherwise, I think that's weird everyone seem to be so keen on Helix Pinnacle, an undisruptable wincon, albeit slow, does not sound that great in this format compared to a very fragile one. Any of the deck featuring it would have done strictly better by running the exact same deck except for a dryad (or similar, any green 1/1 that cannot be blocked by bears) instead of helix:
FTW, 51 to 56, +5
alphastryk, 20 to 28, +8
WoP, 30 to 34, +4
Reeplcheep: 18 to 32, +14
And then I am sure the rest could have been adapted to do better if the goal is not to go so slow with helix.
That being said I am glad there was so many helixes, they made mountain unplayable by being too fast :)
Congrats on the house! No wonder you haven't been online a while.
Do I still get 5 more points if you put Scarab on the Dryad and beat with a 3/4? (optimal play is forced)Quote:
Originally Posted by dte
The only thing my wall stops is Forest + green creature. A 3/x Forestwalk that can't be blocked by green creatures doesn't seem to improve that matchup.
The nonbasic + Kami + buff plan doesn't really work with a creature. The noncreature wincons are all undisruptable, so at that point slowest seemed best to lose races. It's "undisruptable" but irrelevant if they can win before turn 200 vs a 0/0 wall. The only risk is facing threats Kami can stop, but then my buffed Dryad could probably race those.
Otherwise, good observation. The others would have done better without Helix Pinnacle. If I wasn't on the Kami plan, my Arctic Foxes deck had a similar idea with a vulnerable 1/1 wincon.
I had Mountain + Forest + Foxes as tech to beat decks like Rime Dryad, Shanodin Dryads and Goblins of the Flarg. Triome + Symbiote + Legate was I guess how you achieved the same thing. The problem is finding a bad defense card that works with Foxes. Kami doesn't work. I missed CoP: Green. Wall of Hope was my front runner, but I thought it'd be too strong against random non-evasive threats and went with the Kami plan instead.
It turns out no one ran Dryad and very few ran basics, and that both Dryad and Wall of Hope would have been great. Backbuild is a really interesting metagaming challenge, trying to play around how everyone else will try to beat the deck.
Edit: I guess there are two ways to look at it. You could go for a vulnerable threat that only beats the bears, or you could go for a vulnerable defense that stops almost nothing but the bears. With the vulnerable defense, the slowest wincon seems fine, as long as they win first.
You're right, I didn't consider enchanting the dryad.Quote:
Originally Posted by FTW
Your defense working only if the opponent has both a forest and a green creature that is no bigger than 2/2, and no removal VS a green 0/1, was indeed great and worked well with helix.