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Pretty much indistructuble disk doesnt have to happen to win. If I got the killing spells going on turns 1-4 all I need is elspeth and humility, then its a wrap :) That combo is so sick you dont understand and I dont play anything except counters and just beat four 4 until they give up :)
Yes i've beaten merfolk countless times, including pilots like Paul Matriano (former world champion.) In sanctioned play. Say what you want but I keep winning tournaments with the concept. I'll playtest the match-up and show you all. It's safe, it forces merfolk to make decisions that they do not want to make, and it's proven to me that it works consistently. Post board is a completely different story. You shouldn't need disk elspeth post board, but without the help of wasteland and vindicate preboard elspeth disk is one of your only shots (minus them having an extremely bad hand)
Also tinefol elspeth may be a 2 of and disk a 1 of, but wish should count for something into this argument. theres also top as well as just having disk in an opening hand. Your argument of (numbers game) is completely irrelivent because the model I play is a toolbox deck that thrives on the ability to dig out answers at the correct times and thus beat the clock.
Thats not going to happen however granted that merfolk is more of a sly deck, with cards like daze, vial, Wasteland, stifle. Your not hitting a perfect run against them with humility into a clear board then drop elspeth. It's just not going to happen. I'll test it with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by sengirvmpr
Trust me any of you i'll test the matchup with.
apart from the sinergy of nev + disk which is not as important vs merfolk I asked aboiut how do you side vs merfolks keeping in mind 4 E.Plague will come in from the side and there are no more advantage cards apart from the 4 statndstill in base.
Will you take out counters ?how many?
standstills ? how many?
presented my personal strategy that ive had consistent sucess against a variety of opponents with.
let me make this clear since rockout said it wasnt very clear. my preboard strategy is different then others. my model is different then others. players who run wasteland or vindicate probobly have a better matchup. merfolk is obviously winnable from a varierty of different angles. my angle is slower and more drawn out as i prefer to play the drawn out gameplan versus the back and fourth gameplan.
postboard i move up to 17 removal spells (plus tutor) which means that the matchup becomes substancially easier. this should be noted as 17 removal is what it should viably take to crush merfolk consistently in my testing.
disk elspeth is not an every game scenario no, but in my testing the inevitability it gives u makes merfolk fall. in fact disk by itself early enough should make them fall regardless. the trick is playing carefully and around their disruption suit (stifle,spell snare,daze,force, etc.) i prefer this method and if u dont thats fine but dont bother telling me that it doesnt work because i know what im doing.
if anyone wants to test match-ups with me then im game. dont question my integrity unless your willing to back it up.
Elpeth's Ultimate + Disk isn't even a strategy. It happens like one every 100 games and you already won when it happened. (Elspeth on board for 6 turns plus Disk, you must really be in trouble!)
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showp...9&postcount=10
Celestial Colonnade
CIPT
T: Add U or W to your mana pool
3UW: Until EOT Flying Vigilant 4/4
Thoughts?
I don't like the CiPT, tbh. And I'd probably rather run Faerie Conclave than to run what is basically a Coastal Tower with an ability I can use on turn 6. This will see play in Standard, but probably not in Legacy.Quote:
Originally Posted by arebennian
Maybe. Very very maybe. Worth testing, but it probably wont make the cut.
Spending 5 mana each turn? In a deck that runs counterspell, FoF and a buttload of other EOT cards?
Why are we even discussing this? :D
I'm pretty sure this land is better than Conclave, possibly by far.
Being able to produce U/W is golden and being able to potentially finish your opponent twice as quickly as a Factory does is nice too.
Of course this is only true for the late midgame/lategame - then again, I hardly never find myself beating face with Factories before turn 8 or so...
Given it's not a mirror game breaker like Decree but I'd rather draw this land than Factory in a mirror match - be at late game or early game.
Another point worth noting is its ablity to tap for mana after combat (..vigilance). So it's activation cost is virtually cheaper, at least sometimes.
And just like Conclave it's a cute out against Choke.
Too bad it's not fetchable - cause if it was, it'd become a one-of in most LS variants. Anyway, in my opinion it is definitely worth testing.
--
What other decks are likely to test this?
It's actually a true nightmare scenario to face this card.
---
Edit:
Just some common cards Factory has trouble with, while that new land doesn't:
Lightning Bolts, Grips, Nacatls, Mongeese, Warmonks, Pridemagi, Cliques, Hypnotic Specters (the list goes on).
And some more contras:
Fast Aggro: Lackey and other one drops that start attacking on turn 2.
Back to Basics.
What else?
CIPT lands are generally terrible, but the concept of a manland dual might actually make this viable. Dunno. Missing the land drop for a turn's still a huge pain, but so is having my kill conditions produce colorless.
EDIT: Heh, and hey. If you've got 11 mana, it can both attack -and- block.
That card isn't that bad against a deck like Aggro Loam or Survival. It's not only a dual-land ish card, but it's sortof a bad clock. Regardless, you will still get Wastelands thrown at you. Better off ramping up your mana to 8 and hardcasting a DoJ still.
Edit. That card seems like it might be decent in Standard. Granted, there are no Wastelands in standard. But I'm not sure how much better this card is compared to Emeria for control.
So it gives them an optimal Wasteland target. This just means that they don't get the benefit of the choice of whether to aim for your Factories or your Tundras. Instead, you get to keep them and lose the big vigilance guy.
Granted, I think this is only particularly strong if like me, you're already running more than four manlands maindecked. (I have 4 Factory and 2 Vaults currently.)
Expensive & slow :/ Seems like in a land deck it'd work well, as someone mentioned 11 lands could attack and block, deffinitely cool.. seems like that sorta deck could use a good flier :)
Eternal Dragon > Celestial Colonnade...
Dragon is a basic plain or Tundra early on and a 5/5 recurring flyer late-game. The only good thing about Celestial Colonnade is that it's big under a Humilty, but Mishra's Factory is big enough under Humility anyway.
Benie
Factory isn't a 4/4 with evasion either. Keep in mind eternal dragon costs 5 just to return to your hand, then 7 to hardcast, which is pretty expensive.
dragon performs a better function then the new manland could function. the problem is that the manland costs five mana to activate. its not better then factory and to be completely honest for a minute
why is this card better then the infinately cheaper monestary. while i understand its situational the bottom line is efficiency right?
I don't think anyone said it was, just throwing out uses. Better in Landstill? I would say so, less this be some green version I haven't heard about ;)Quote:
why is this card better then the infinately cheaper monestary. while i understand its situational the bottom line is efficiency right?
In a 40+ Land Deck maybe not, it has its uses though... it has evasion and compared to Nantuko isn't hindered by gy hate. Shazam beyoches, I win this thread! jk
yeah except if ur opponent is playing gy hate against landstill their probobly bone-headed. (hey thankd for playing gy hate against my 1-2 monestary + maybe cow and dragon!)
and while the new land may be standard playable the fact that ur unitiating stp as a time-walk against u makes it oh soo much worse.
Eternal Dragon gets you that Basic Plains under Blood Moon. I've had CounterTop board that bull shit in against me before, as well as Vial Goblins.
Edit. I've stolen games against Merfolk and Zoo before by just casting a topdecked Dragon. Sometimes against those decks, you have to sacrifice card advantage to stay alive. Topdecking Dragon is one of the few things that are helpful in turning the game around when you and your opponent are having topdeck wars.
i just did the same thing against zoo with e dragon the other night against my team-mate. it just happens.
however with that said i think activating a manland every turn to perform the same function (minus the ability to fix ur mana to basic plains.) is so much worse. i agree that there is a certain point at which landstill should just win the game with whatever, but i do not think that whatever is this 4/4 for 5cc manland every turn. i'd take gargoyle castle above it (and i wouldnt play that in landstill currently.)
I'm introducing myself into this deck. I have a list that i like but i don't really know if it is viable.
Could you help me with some suggestion besides shocks x duals??
/ Lands
3 [TE] Wasteland
1 [FUT] Tolaria West
4 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
2 [UL] Faerie Conclave
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [R] Tundra
2 [DIS] Hallowed Fountain
1 [RAV] Watery Grave
2 [7E] Island (2)
2 [MR] Plains (1)
// Spells
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [6E] Counterspell
2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
4 [4E] Swords to Plowshares
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
3 [JU] Cunning Wish
2 [6E] Wrath of God
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [OD] Standstill
2 [SC] Decree of Justice
2 [TE] Humility
1 [5E] Nevinyrral's Disk
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [A] Disenchant
SB: 2 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 4 [ARB] Meddling Mage
SB: 1 [ZEN] Ravenous Trap
SB: 1 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 [CFX] Path to Exile
SB: 2 [6E] Circle of Protection: Red
Thx you all!
I would try to fit Spell snares in and a more diversified draw. Probably something like this:
-1 Counterspell
-1 Standstill
-1 Brainstorm
-1 Crucible
-1 Cunning Wish
+2 Top
+3 Spell snare
P-M
Ok time to fess up guys. Its about banning. I played a number of games and if im wrong tell me but I think senseis top and elspeth are a little "too" good even for legacy. I play a card thats not them and i might lose. If I play them im at like 90% im going to win. Entomb has never had anything on these 2. If entomb warrants it I think these probley do as well. Not counterbalance, not force of will, not even moat are as good as these two cards. Maybe im wrong but I bet bottom dollar most landstill games that dont go to time just "win". Tell me if im wrong and explain.
#1.) No, just no.Quote:
Originally Posted by sengirvmpr
#2.) This is certainly the wrong place for this discussion. If you want to mistakenly whine about some card's power level, kindly do it somewhere else.
Hi All,
The Landstill thread is bloated beyond belief. The mods/admins are reviewing which threads need a re-boot and this is one of the ones we've identified.
Does anyone have an interest in writing a new OP for U/w Landstill? It needn't be long, but should cover the basic shell, common cards, debateable cards, proven lists, maybe a quickie match-up guide. Doesn't need to be any longer than 1000 words, though it can be as long as you'd like.
If you're interested, please PM me and tell me why you're the best person for the gig.
Thanks,
Staff
Actually these cards are far from overpowered...Quote:
Originally Posted by sengirvmpr
Top isn't overpowered, mainly because it is a mana-sink... There are going to be times that you wish you could check your top, but your opponent has threats that you must answer... It simply gives the deck more options, and in a format where the diversity of threats is as high as in Legacy's, you need options in a control deck. It is pretty much exactly what we need to keep up.
And I don't understand all these people bitching/orgasming over elspeth.
The card is good, yes, but it can only 'deal' with one creature by producing blockers, and while a 4/4 flier is pretty good, it takes 2 turns just to make one. It also cannot deal with multiple creatures, and burn hurts it too (although to be fair, that's just less burn that's getting thrown at the face)...
Elspeth is kind of win-more (in a way), as you have to play it when they only have 0-1 threats on board (i.e. you're already in great shape board-wise)...
Elspeth is very good with humility though, but with that, humility, wrath, and decree vying for spots in the deck, which do you choose? It seems everyone here thinks 8-10 4cc spells is acceptable.
But then again, it is a win-condition that also kind of doubles as disruption, so that's why everyone plays it.
No, but these cards are fast.Quote:
Originally Posted by thefreakaccident
Elspeth is fucking awesome. It's not as good as Decree, but it's definitely more mana efficient than DoJ.Quote:
And I don't understand all these people bitching/orgasming over elspeth.
Your job as a control deck is to keep creatures off the board anyway. And it's good that burn is being aimed towards it; it keeps you from losing, and they will spend at least two burn spells on it. Definitely worth it. And if they don't, you're probably winning. And you can also cycle DoJ to make blockers while another soldier token flies over. Elspeth is a very compatible card in Landstill. And is a lot better than Humility because it wins.Quote:
The card is good, yes, but it can only 'deal' with one creature by producing blockers, and while a 4/4 flier is pretty good, it takes 2 turns just to make one. It also cannot deal with multiple creatures, and burn hurts it too (although to be fair, that's just less burn that's getting thrown at the face)...
Not at all. We play it because it can also be a control card. And in Landstill 8-10 4c cards is acceptable. It's a late game deck.Quote:
Elspeth is kind of win-more (in a way), as you have to play it when they only have 0-1 threats on board (i.e. you're already in great shape board-wise)...
Elspeth is very good with humility though, but with that, humility, wrath, and decree vying for spots in the deck, which do you choose? It seems everyone here thinks 8-10 4cc spells is acceptable.
Indeed would you cut brainstorm?? I really like top but i feel confortable with crucibles and counterspell. Maybe a good cut is stanstill, just 1 off course and a wish in favor of 2 top.Quote:
Originally Posted by Enigma
I hate to drag out this troll, but nobody's mentioned this yet: Entomb is not banned.Quote:
Originally Posted by sengirvmpr
Often casting Brainstorm once per game is enough. Beyond that, the decisions of what to put back can be agonizing and not worth it, and if you're casting it without a shuffle afterwards, then Ponder or Top would be better. I see no big problem with Top becoming Brainstorms 4 and 5, as long as you mind the blue count for Force. Reusable Brainstorm = good.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
Cutting a Standstill seems okay in a very fast meta where Zoo will have a bunch of guys on the board by the time you can cast it, and Merfolk can play under it just as well or better than you can.
Actually this is a question to put to far more experience players than I - between the 4th Standstill and the 4th Brainstorm, which is more cuttable. You'd probably get a feeling for where opinions lie from reading the last few months of this thread. A common configuration seems to be 3Stills/3BS/3Top.
3 Wish probably is too many, I would be worried that it the second and third copies that you draw could get stuck in hand, with you wishing they were more point removal, but having already Wished for your one Path. Two Wishes should be enough.
The usefulness of Spell Snare is going to depend a lot on your metagame. In a developed meta where you need to stop things like Counterbalances and Hymns when you're on the draw, it will be indispensible. In a less developed meta, or facing randomjank.dec, it'll more likely sit in your hand until you pitch it to Force. Personally I'm an old-school player and really don't want to go below 4 Counterspells either.
If I have slighted the Landstill gods in some way, do say so.
@ citrus god-
I was trying to get the point across that the cards aren't degenerate or broken.
I mentioned the fact that it is pseudo-disruption.
Also, while it is the deck's objective to create an empty board, it doesn't always happen, and I will never cast an elspeth against a board with two or more sizable threats (which was the point I was trying to get across).
Thank you citrus-god I think you were the only one who understood what I was saying. I wasnt bitching about the power level of these cards in a random deck or in a non landstill-established deck. I only wanted to talk landstill- and the cards we play in it -I personally think landstill right now is one of the top 3 competitive decks because of these cards (top 2 maybe). But I will digress this point because I guess this is the wrong place to talk about cards that are played in landstill.
Nothing in Landstill is degenerate or broken. Landstill will never be a broken deck. It's too fair.Quote:
Originally Posted by thefreakaccident
Then the players must be awful at the game if they don't create empty boards by turn 6-8. The only time creatures get to resolve is when you have flying Angel tokens and/or an Elspeth out.Quote:
Also, while it is the deck's objective to create an empty board, it doesn't always happen, and I will never cast an elspeth against a board with two or more sizable threats (which was the point I was trying to get across).
The easiest way for other decks to deal with Elspeth is for them to simply run their own, which they can and will do. (see: the Rock, and potentially Bant Countertop)
It's not a big deal playing against opposing Elspeths. The only problem I would have is playing against opposing DoJs.Quote:
Originally Posted by grahf
Nice stab.Quote:
Originally Posted by Citrus-God
Anyways, Most players in my meta generally don't over-commit. And with stifles, wastelands, and dazes I can only usually cast and use my mass removal turns 6-7 anyways. Don't kid yourself by acting superior in any way, i'm just stating facts and perspectives.
If you're facing two significant threats on the board with no answers you have big problems whether you're running Elspeth or not. As in, you're going to die unless you find an answer in the next 2 turns, and Elspeth is fantastic because your win-con allows you to deal with only 1 of the threats, as you can then cast that win-con, and perma-chump while you dig for another answer, or win the game in 5 turns if you find an answer.
So I don't see how that's even a "criticism" of Elspeth as a win-con that does double work as defense and card advantage.
I guess my problem is that I usually play a more disruptive build of landstill (just 2 decree and 5-6 manlands)... It frees up more effective board control. I am a little biased though, as in my metagames planeswalkers just die to burn and whatnot. This leaves me in situations where i would prefer to simply destroy their crits right off the bat.