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Reveillark for me is not really a win-more card. It actually works well in certain metagames. Reveillark has the potential to be great in metagames where board sweepers are very prevalent. Since winning with zombies is very difficult you can go through larking two grave-trolls and returning an FKZ. I still haven't tested it yet so I'm not really sure on how it goes. It's works fairly well in LED dredge i hear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Guitar
I know it sees play in vintage lists, but what about Sadistic Hypnotist? Truly can lock your oppenent out of the game if returned early on....
Also, crazy idea(may not even be worth it, but food for thought) : Circular Logic. Counterspells for Ichorid
For sadistic Hypnotist, I've hard time finding a situation where I would want him more then the Sage.. :o I think you're just making the game longer :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Joe_C
For circular logic, the problem is having one mana open for it, when you could play a Putrid imp / Careful study / Tireless / breaktrough.
And you wreck your hand with breaktrough, so it would most likely go in the graveyard.. And if you don't have it in the opening hand, it's a dead card..
Hypnotist looks interesting but it doesn't help making the combo better. Dredge is a combo deck, it's cards either help make the combo happen or protect the combo. Hypnotist isn't the most effective slot in the deck because it doesn't help you win now.
As for Circular Logic, it looks really cute having it in, the problem is it doesn't have enough synergy with the deck compared to therapy or unmask. The deck doesn't really need permission that much too.
Sorry for double post, but I'm posting the build that I'm using right now, which seems to work quite well. I've only tested without side as of now.
I've had some problems like 1-2 games with mulligans, and it seems to "combo" out quite well.
// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
2 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise
4 [AN] City of Brass
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
// Creatures
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
2 [TO] Cephalid Sage
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
3 [TO] Ichorid
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
3 [OD] Tireless Tribe
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
// Spells
3 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [OD] Careful Study
3 [TO] Breakthrough
Similar to the list that someone posted early on, but changed some little things. I'm planning on playing a bit with the list.
I'll explain my choice later on, but I plan using this deck in a metagame full of threshold, and with some merfolk and some Next level blue and maybe 1-2 eva green and 1-2 dragon stompy and some other random Deck
2 Ichorid Lists made top 8 in the same event this past weekend. The lists should be posted this week I would think. If I see them come up I will transfer them over to here for discussion. They seemed to be playing fairly standard lists aside from runnin Null Rod in their boards
http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showp...6&postcount=33
here is a link to the lists from this past weekend... Fairly standard, I like Sundering Titan as a return outlet, but I dont think it's needed. Being more resilient games 2 and 3. Thats whats needed
I like the list, I have been leaning a lot more towards 14 lands lately, seems to be just as consistent but I have abandoned all hope in Undiscovered Paradise. There have been numerous times when I would have won next turn with Coliseum but the fucking thing returned to my hand so I just decided lightning bolt land is the way to go.
I still feel that same about additional DR targets, but Woodfall Primus is the best bet to making things work. I have considered him in the board for the Stax matchup but that matchup is so abysmal anyway I have basically abandoned it. Grudge/Ray are most likely just superior.
As far as Unmask goes .... still dont like it. I would run Firestorm before I run Unmask, I realize these fill different slots but I just don't like either. Firestorm could be run for the Belcher matchup or any storm deck that relies on Warrens but aside from that ...
This idea is WAAAAY out there but its something I have been thinking about. Could this deck ever be good with Serum Powder in it? I love vintage Dredge but I think playing 4x DR and all the other shit that comes with Powder is probably unnecessary. Has anyone ever played a Serum Powder Dredge list? Would it be awful beyond words without Bazaar?
I would have to think that without bazaar, serum powder just isnt worth it. The thing with vintage dredge is that it can powder away hands until it has a bazaar in hand. Thats enough to get the ball rolling. In legacy unfortunately we need to have an land thats on color for our hand/ a discard outlet/dredger, and preferably another draw spell ie. study or breakthrough to hopefully pump out a turn 2 win. We risk losing too many of those pieces when we throw away hands to powder, and without going over 60 cards, I would not even know where to start taking out stuff unless you added powder to an LED list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
Vintage Ichorid can run on one card and one card alone. Serum Powder helps in looking for a hand with this card in it at the very least. In Legacy Ichorid, we use more types of cards to be able to replicate the Bazaar effect in our deck. We wouldn't be able to achieve the same effect that Serum Powder has in the vintage deck mainly because of big disparity in deck design and strategy. Removing cards through Serum Powder would be murder because it would make the combo more inconsistent than it already is, furthermore, there is no certain card that the deck would want to mulligan into, it needs a combination of cards to function, making mulliganing through powder not as effective a plan as it theoretically is.
Hello, I used the decklist that I've posted above (in the exception of 2-3 cards) in a 3 rounds tournament.
I've played agaisnt a random deck in first round. 2-0
Second round I've played agaisnt a deck that is similar to landstill, but with no mans land and no standstill (lol). The deck was good though, and played by a good and a nice player (Hi Ugo). I've lost first match due to a relic turn 2 I think (he had 2x relics maindecked), and I used breakthrough Turn 1.
I didn't see any Therapy, and got PImp counter spell'd. He proceeded to play Elspeth and had a FoW in hand.
I've lost game 2 agaisnt him. I had lots of bad dredge and slowed me down early game, he managed to Cwish for Extirpate and removed my bridge he was at about 5 life then with my ichroid. Put EE at 0 and killed the zombies that I had. He crypted my Graveyard. I managed to attack him with my last ichorid but he sworded it. He put Elspeth and I managed to get him down to 2 with 1 narco, and he wasted my only land. He academy ruined EE and killed my narco. He killed me with elspeth, and didn't get any lands in like 5 turns...
0-2
Third round, I played agaisnt a BUG ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh, he had Deed maindecked, but I killed him T3.
Second game, he puts Top turn 1, and I put Needle on Relic. Turn 2 he puts Counter balance and cript. After he used his crypt when I dredged and put a tarmo, I hardcasted Stinkweed Imp 3x in the game, and beat him down with it. I had 2 bridges in my yard, and he had another tarmo, and he Deed everything... So I had 8 Tokens and won.
2-0
Overall, I've done 2-1. And I've tournament every thursday.. and I can post a report if you want to.
Some things that I would change to my deck ;
I'll add another Therapy Maindeck. A lot of times I wish that I had it.
I'll probally had a ichorid SB, I found ichorid really nice game two vs hate such as extirpate on Bridges.
I just got my playset of Unmask, so I plan on playtesting it, I'll give my impression.
I plan on trying Firestorm 2-3x main deck. It can steal some games pre-SB and is so useful in a meta with lots of aggro, dragon stompy, thresh and landstill. (and my meta have about 1 combo deck on 30 people)
P.s. I didn't have to do THAT many mulligans, and I got problems with needle, like putting it in T1 on Relics and then at his turn he puts Crypt. Happened to me 2 times.
@Guitar: Congratulations in doing very well with the deck. With a little more experience in playing the deck I'm sure you'd do a hella lot better in tournaments. Concerning the needle, What I name usually depends on the situation. I usually wait for my opponent to play something like crypt or relic, then I needle it once it hits the board. Blindly naming on needle often leads to errors that can very well decide games, that is why as much as possible I advice against it. You can also try siding in Chalices for crypts so the needles can solely be used for relics or vials or manlands or whatever.
OT: I've recently been testing 2/2 Split on Golgari Thug and Darkblast dredging suite. Ive noticed at times that I often pass winning on the following turns because i lack a creature for returning sage or FKZ so i decided to test out 2 thugs in place of the 15th land and 3rd darkblast in the list from the opening post.
There are a lot of burn and blue in my meta so thugs worked wonders in recurring narcs. More importantly, it gave me more creatures that i can hardcast for dread return. The deck seem to be doing fairly well except for the fact that it seemed to have increased my mulligans. I'm doing further testing with this. Is there anyone else that have tried this configuration? Your thoughts and criticisms on this are greatly appreciated.
@Guitar: Most of the time you can basically tell what kind of hate your opponent is playing just by knowing the format and the possible SB cards, so familiarize yourself with that and it will greatly help. Also, this is what I with Pithing Needle, don't play it on turn 1 if you have a discard outlet that is not Breakthrough. Just play Careful Study/Tribe/Imp and discard GGT (always GGT since he is the best dredger and will prompt your opponent to use the hate cards). And your opponent will almost always drop their hate spell so next turn you know what to Needle. I love baiting the spell cause sometimes they don't even have their hate but something like Engineered Explosives which really sucks and after they drop that, Needle it! This is another strategy to use, very simple but more effective than not, if they play Tarmogoyf name Crypt, if they don't run Goyf name Relic.
Or run Null Rod to answer all the artifact hate. mwa ha ha ha. :confused:
Im looking to put a blend of needle/rod in my board. At the moment my board is:Quote:
Originally Posted by whienot
4 Firestorm
3 Wispmare
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Null rod
2 Pithing needle
1 Ancestor's Chosen
Been testing fairly well... Alot of people on MWS quit once you win on turn 2 or 3 :wink:
Also, my list has changed a bit:
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Tarnished Citadel
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Cephalid Sage
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
2 Tireless Tribe
4 Putrid Imp
3 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Breakthrough
3 Careful Study
Id love to run the 3rd tribe, but I often get hands where I cant cast him, I know that sounds weird since the deck runs 9 rainbow lands and 4 only blue producers, but I get hands with 2 coliseums in it way more often than I feel I should, maybe its just my shit luck, but I would rather have another careful study in there instead of the tribe since study can get things moving fast. The 4th thug has been treating me really well.... Its another snack for ichorid and having that extra dredger is really something.
I usually know what kind of hate people side, but one game, with the guy running Relic MD, I assumed that he sided in more relics, or at least, there were more chance of having relic then Crypt. So I needled the Relic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
And one of the problem I have seen, is that when I had needle Game 2 or 3, my only draw was a breaktrough, so I think I kind of "had" to play Needle on Turn one.
I've had Chalice in my side, but I never feel the need to side it. Except the fact that it costs 0 to Crypt, I've always found Needle to be time better because it is more versatile in lots of cases.
By the way, have anyone considered playing like 3 firestorm instead of Tireless Tribe, especially in a meta with Landstill variant, Dragon Stompy and threshold ?
Another question, is it better for an opponent to FOW a Turn 1 Pimp or wait to FOW a Breakthrough / Careful study.
Also, I've seen some list running Lotus Petal (on www.deckcheck.net), has anyone tested it ?
This is probally the list that I will test this week.
Lands (14)
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
2 [VI] Undiscovered Paradise
4 [AN] City of Brass
4 [WL] Gemstone Mine
// Creatures (28)
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
1 [TO] Cephalid Sage
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
3 [TO] Ichorid
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Firestorm
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
1 Woodfall Primus
// Spells (18)
3 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [OD] Careful Study
3 [TO] Breakthrough
Sideboard
4 x Pithing Needle
3 x Chain of Vapor
4 x Wishpmare
1 x Ichorid
3 x Unmask
Guitar: On your question about your opponents force targets: Them forcing your Imp serves them better than waiting for a breakthrough. Imp/tribe are pretty much early "must counters" for your opponents. If they let it resolve, you will get a dredger into the grave and may win the next turn if the dregde gods are kind to you(as in you dont dredge 19 or so cards and not hit a moeba, yeah its happened to me). Them letting a discard outlet like imp/tribe hit is very devastating for them.
On firestorm against stompy: I wouldnt take tribe out in favor of them to start, but games 2 and 3 I would drop the tribes and maybe an imp for firestorms since it cant be needled, and if they land a magus of the moon, they just gave you a pain free red mana to use to wipe the board. Against landstill, I would maybe take out a return and a sage for 2 firestorms and keep the tribe/imp count the same. If they run hate, you will want the continuing effect of imp/tribe more than anything else.
@ Pulp - I've been using the list you posted a few pages back and it's been working out very well, very consistent.
For reference:
I'm having problems deciding what to side board out, what do you side board out when you need to bring in Needle or CoV or Whispmare or CotV?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
Also, have you ever had to bring more side board cards then 4x Needles or Wispmare or CotV to deal with threats, a mix of side board cards?
Glad you like the updated list :) How I board is all posted in the opening post. Most of the time it is -1 Sage, -1 Dread Return, -1 Breakthrough, -1 Careful Study. Against blue I have started removing 3x Breakthroughs and 1x Sage to bring in 4 cards. There is rarely a matchup where I side in more than 4 cards. Against storm combo I started removing 2x Ichorids (and it works quite well since this matchup is all about speed and disruption) and Ichorid is usually to slow to impact the game.
The other week when I played UG Constant Mist Moment's Peace.dec I sided in 8x cards but that because I just wanted to rely on dork beatdown and use the slow dredge so as not to deck myself while still applying Ichorid beats (it worked first time and failed due to recurring Relics + Cryptic Command the second time).
If you could give me an example of what you will be playing against I could talk a little more about SB.
Pulp, not to critique too much since obviously your deck is performing for you, but how do you feel about all of the 3 of's in your list?