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Ok So I finally had a moment where I..... fuck I have no mana to dodge that last card (daze) in his hand. Now I can't Sower his big ass coatl (could we run this thing aswell?) Drake would have made me do that. (but does get hit with snare which is run more often I guess) Im going to make the switch to drake for now.
As a side-note can we make this deck more aggro by adding coatl or is he too slow in this deck and needs a more dedicated shell with tops and more ponders?
Congrats on the descision to swith for Drake, he's a cutie.
Of course the deck could play Coatl, but why would we need it? As I see it, the power of this deck is the ability to switch gear somewhere around turn 4-6 with more power than any other aggro-control deck, from a set-up, controlish play to go aggro and aiming to win in about 2 turns following, through massive exalted attack in the air. The Coatl does not really aid us in that transition, and since we shift to aggro-mode so swiftly, I don't see it beeing very huge either. A goyf or a clique would be about as big, played the turn berfore, as a coatl. And if you face a huge Coatl, just ignore it and fly over, perhaps chumping with a hierarch if needed, or nick it with a Drake of yours.
Either way, I wouldn't find room for any Coatls, would you?
Nope, better of playing thresh then ;)
In my sideboard, I have added Counterbalance/Top. I realized that it is better than Mage at stopping Loam decks, it is better than Mage against Combo, it is better than 4 Hydroblasts and 3 War Monks against Burn, and it can come in against Landstill to protect your creatures.
3 Counterbalance
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Krosan Grip
4 Hydroblast
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Gaddock Teeg
Now this makes me want to get back to testing CB in the MD but I think that would change the deck up into something else. Probably a worse something else since my deck isn't focused on abusing it. In the board, it can take out the dead cards that I would have in the MD to beat Landstill or combo, or Burn.
I've had a similar list with CB/Top either not both with Bant Survival. I played 3SDT over 3 Ponders while having 4 Counterbalance in the sideboard against the combo and burn/thresh matchups.
I would recommend not putting CB AND Top in since it really dilutes the strategy. If you do put both in, then just play Thresh since it's more consistent. putting CB in the MD without Top is just wrong, but playing Top over Ponder is an alternative, not to mention fetches + Survival really help shuffle the deck up.
I've been a little annoyed by the lack of countermagic in the deck. Sprite is not free. I'm thinking of playing 3 Daze over 3 Ponder now. But that really drops the cantrips down to 4 Brainstorm, making it a little inconsistent.
Chalice @2 kind of hurt the decks. I removed Trygon to FOW against Faerie Stompy and he chaliced for 2, stopping Goyfs, Pridemage, Sprites, everything and also Drake (I can see why Sower is better in this case, but she's still hard to cast and resolve and protect).
I thought about having Tops main so my SB could be a little more diverse but then it lowers the blue count a bit too much. I'm still working with it in the SB.Quote:
Originally Posted by crz87
I have also wished for more free counters. Too many times I have to drop Goyf down or tap out for the Survival and I just leave myself open. Daze wouldn't hurt in that situation. Maybe if the curve got lowered enough (it kind of is getting lower with Drake, Pridemages, etc) that Daze wouldn't be such a tempo loss. I currently have three lists that I am torn between. One abuses Survival with Anger, Rofellos, Tradewind Rider, Quirion Ranger, etc. It is Bant ATS basically. Another is just straight UGw. It is like the lists in the opening posts without red. The third has CB main, Daze, and only 3 Survival. It is essentially just Thresh but with a late game CA engine in Survival. The regular BS and BS-Control run the best. The most consistent with a low curve, easiest on the manabase, etc. I much prefer these two. The ATS build needs some work but it has the most synergy and power once it gets going.
Bant Survival
// Lands
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [ON] Wooded Foothills
4 [A] Tropical Island
3 [U] Savannah
1 [U] Tundra
3 [US] Forest (3)
1 [ON] Island (2)
// Creatures
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
1 [DIS] Trygon Predator
1 [US] Gilded Drake
4 [LRW] Spellstutter Sprite
1 [JU] Wonder
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [ALA] Rafiq of the Many
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
2 [MOR] Vendilion Clique
// Spells
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [MM] Brainstorm
2 [LRW] Ponder
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
SB: 4 [IA] Hydroblast
SB: 1 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
SB: 1 [JU] Genesis
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
Bant Survival - Control
// Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [A] Tropical Island
2 [U] Tundra
2 [U] Savannah
1 [ON] Island (2)
1 [US] Forest (3)
// Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
1 [MM] Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
1 [DIS] Trygon Predator
4 [CFX] Noble Hierarch
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
1 [OD] Mystic Enforcer
1 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
1 [FD] Trinket Mage
// Spells
4 [CS] Counterbalance
2 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [R] Swords to Plowshares
3 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
4 [NE] Daze
2 [LRW] Ponder
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [EX] Survival of the Fittest
SB: 1 [LRW] Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [JU] Genesis
SB: 3 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [ALA] Rhox War Monk
SB: 4 [IA] Hydroblast
I think your better of playing dave price's build then. I played top in the deck at the start of this thread and dropped it because it was too mana intensive together with survival.
@Daze, I don't get it you guys convinced me to let it go and now going back to it yourself. Whats up with that :o
It kind of is Dave's build, just with some additions that weren't around back then. I was just throwing out a list that could be played, but I still am not feeling it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waikiki
In a mana intensive deck, Daze is really poor in a lot of situations. With a low curve like the one we are moving towards, it could be okay. It helps our game when we don't land a Survival so it has merit.
My originial build was allready the same as we have now -survival pridemage -1 land -1 ponder +3 daze (and afcorse some tutor target differences)Quote:
Originally Posted by Jak.
Daze is good. You can run it. But in the end I did not really miss it. I also choose not to go T2 survival against blue decks anyway. First give them some pressure to hold em busy and then land survival when they are off guard. That way you got more mana open and can start the engine right away. if you started out with T1 hierarch then its a different story and its ok to play survival T2 cause your at least out of daze range. Just look out for spell snares.
Without daze our early game is a bit harder because we need to play around things. But our late game improves because we got no more sucky topdecks.
Hey Fellow Survival Banters
I've recently picked up this deck (thanks to you guys). Like it alot.
Just wanted to say hi and post my Deck List and some small comments on it.
CREATURES (23)
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Eternal Witness
4 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Gilded Drake
1 Wonder
1 Man-o’-War
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Trygon Predator
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Rafiq of the Many
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
ENCHANTMENTS (4)
4 Survival of the Fittest
SORCERIES (2)
2 Ponder
INSTANTS (12)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
LANDS (19)
2 Forest
2 Island
1 Plains
3 Tropical Island
2 Savannah
1 Tundra
4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
SIDEBOARD
2 Meddling Mage
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Rhox War Monk
3 Krosan Grip
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Genesis
*I go with 4 Sprites (they truly are monsters!)
*I feel that Gilded Drake is superior to SoT, since we dont have a good wat to protect her (and also the Drake is much easier to cast)
*I'm trying out Man-O'-War, he works great with the Drake and also is a bitch for those Dreadnoughts and Tombstalkers.
*I dont really feel a need for Daze, so far I have not wished I had it in the deck.
*Only 19 lands have been enough for me so far, since i got 4 Hierarchs and 6 Brainstorm/Ponder
Hopefully i can contribute to the discussion aswell.
/Jokemon
whats up with basic islands? you need as much G as you can get for survival.
For the rest your list looks great!
@all I'm currently testing out wonder and see how it impacts the game.
I don't have more duals in colour to date. Will go down to 1 Basic Island when i can.
I am going to try out with basics and with more duals and se.
@ Wonder, i like it alot. Legacy got so many creatures today so the ground easily get crowded.
If you have alot of wastelands around I would certainly not go down to 19 lands. I run 20 myself with 2 forest and 1 plains as my basics.
Hi guys. I've been testing the anger list for a couple of days and I must say I'm pretty impressed by its power. I'm not totally sure on my manabase, so it's something that still needs work. I also have 1 or 2 slots I'm not sure of. Firstly, I'll show you the list and then the couple of problems I have.
Lands:
4x Windswept Heath
2x Wooded Foothills
2x Flooded Strand
4x Tropical Island
3x Savannah
1x Taiga
1x Tundra
3x Forest
Spells:
4x Force of will
4x Brainstorm
4x Survival of the fittest
4x Swords to plowshares
2-3x Ponder (60 or 61 cards)
Creatures:
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Noble Hierarch
1x Rhox War Monk
1x Rafiq of the many
3x Spellstutter sprite
2x Vendilion Clique
1x Sower of temptation
1x Anger
1x Squee, Goblin Nabob
1x Trygon Predator
1x Eternal Witness
1-2x Qasali Pridemage
0-1x Winged Coatl
0-1x Flametongue Kavu (Need an extra Taiga)
SB:
Against Aggro
2x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Rhox War Monk
1x Spore Frog
1x Llawan, Cephalid Empress
Against Control\Graveyard
1x Genesis
2x Krosan Grip
2x Tormod's crypt
Against Combo
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Meddling Mage
3x Spell snare
My choices:
Sower over Drake: Counterbalance ruins our day If they setup at 2-3 before we land survival or Qasali. Having a "win con" flying over it seems important to me.
Anger over Wonder: Anger makes survival a 1 or 2 turn clock that must be answered now. It has a good synergy with Trygon and Rafiq.
3x Spellstutter: I personnaly do not like them too much. Our deck is really mana intensive and it's really hard to cover our things with this. It's awsome covering our creatures when we are established with survival on the board, but I find this to be already a good board position I don't need to establish more.
Side: I find aggro is really dominant these days, mostly Zoo, Merfolk and Elves. The Sb is somehow dedicated against these MU:
Spore Frog\Genesis wins against Elves and pretty much all aggro decks without swords and counters.
Jittes and RWM for burnish deck
Llawan against merfolks (I had good tests results with it, mostly because of Noble hierarchs making it possible to land without putting our Islands into play (really good strategy if we succed to do it)) The Cephalid is also good at bouncing Progenitus.
I think I would need more graveyard hate against Ichorid, but I feel the tormod's would give me enough time to assemble Spore Frog + Genesis.
If you guys could help me choose between the 2nd Qasali, the Winged coatl and the Kavu, It will be appreciated. At the moment, I run the Coatl, but It happened twice or thrice that the opponent just killed it before I can block with it.
P-M
I also see Wonder as a 2 turn clock since you can make goyf evasive and together with rafiq it will be a big blow. Also This deck just is a little slowwer then grb survival. Which is not a bad thing imo.
A single wasteland on taiga ruins your haste party while wonder got plenty of islands to feed on.
@ pridemage/coatl etc discussion. That are just the open slots that you can fit for the meta your playing in.
The basics for the deck are:
19-22 land
4 survival
4 stp
4 goyf
1 squee
3 sprite
2 clique
4 bstorm
4 fow
The rest can be filled with:
Rafiq
extra sprite
ponders
Rhox war monks
pridemages
T predator
Wonder
Anger
Genesis
jitte
sower
Drake
Meddling mage
those are simply the flexible slots. Bring some extra cards to your tournament and adjust the slots to what you see ;)
I always got double feelings for jitte. For once as it hits it's super awesome omg jitte is broken.
When you equip and the resp spot removal its always a fuck jitte cost me another turn card. I prefer war monks for that reason and some path to exiles.
Lately ive been running 3 spell snare in my sb for battling eva green type of decks and CB decks (confidant, goyf, CB, pridemage)
I'm actually amazed by Ponders, and would never drop below 3. The important part is that it's the ONLY sorcery in our deck, so it's needed to boost Goyf a little. Although to some extent, our Goyf is boosted mostly by Hierarchs unless you're swinging in multiples.
I am however going to consider running 3 Daze, changes I would make will be to drop 3 ponders to 2, or 4 Sprites to 3, and maybe drop a silver bullet target or run 61 cards or run 19 lands. (what has been the optimal testing with lands? 20 is optimal for me although sometimes I draw a little excessive so maybe running 20 lands with 41 non-lands might be good).
Here's a list that I'm working on:
20 Lands
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Taiga
1 Tundra
3 Savannah
4 Tropical Island
2 Forest
1 Plains
20 Creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Vendillion Clique
1 Gilded Drake/Sower (I guess meta dependent, if too much CB-Top, then Sower)
1 Anger
1 Quasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Trygon Predator
1 Rhox War Monk
1 Squee
21 non-creatures
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Swords to Plowshares
I would personally play 1 Clique and 3 Ponders with 61 cards. I am amazed by Clique but she doesn't shine as much unless you're paired up against Loam/ANT/Landstill. Not sure what I would cut. I might just play an anger-less build but anger is too good to cut. Most of the time I would just spam out multiple Noble Hierarchs since they have haste. Rhox War Monk has been a huge lifesaver for me so I'm reluctant to remove him. Quasali Pridemage might go, but he's great against targets at instant speed when you don't have an anger.
I'm definitely more willing to play 3 Daze, since that would give us a countersuite with the strength of Thresh (without CB-Top). Many times, I wished I had more free counters against ANT. The tempo lost from Daze is offset with Hierarchs or at least the capability to search them out with Survival. It's true that this deck needs a lot of mana, but in a Drake build, Daze might be better. Unlike traditional Survival, we don't need as much mana as they do since they are mostly playing with Genesis + Rofellos for insane synergy with various evoke/echo creatures.
Another 1st place for me in local tourney this week. Playing the deck is pure fun.
Regarding winged coatl vs pridemage etc:
What's so great about the deck is that it has rather plentiful of slots that could be modified according to meta and personal preference. However, winged coatl sounds like pure bullshit to me! =) Between 4 swords, witness and drake/man-o'war, why would you want to tutor for a 1/1 for 3 mana?! Pridemage on the other hand is awesome
Also, 3 ponders. Wish it could be 4, but 2 is not enough for a consistent game plan.
Along with the ponders, I am totaly pro basic lands. It all works out perfectly, you have 1 cantrip less than most thresh-builds, but also 4 hierarchs. I play this:
4 heath
4 strand
4 tropical
2 savannah
1 tundra
2 forest
1 plains
1 island
To be able to go 1st turn basic island -> ponder is key in matches against wasteland/mana hate, when you can't go forest -> hierarch. Basic island also got me out from a magus of the moon lock (man-o'-war, RAWR).
@Daze/spell snare.
Waikiki, how is spell snare in the SB working for you? I remember you said it was for you sui-matches, right? I've been considering daze in the SB instead, for manatight decks such as tempo-thresh and TA.
A lot of rant today, sorry 'bout that.
I find spell snare being just the thing I need vs rock kinda decks like eva green etc. It counters soo much and they cant play arround it. Also returning the land is a big tempo loss in that matchup. You want to be able to drop survival asap and overrun them.
I'm more willing to add ponder than dropping them. Replacing them by adding Daze seems completly the wrong way to go, as Daze adds to the bad topdecks, and Ponder does the opposite. I'm thinking dropping the 1 "Winged, Ftk, Qasali" spot for a 4th ponder and 61 cards. I think it's the deck I feel the most confortable with this number of cards, as I find beeing manaflood quite often.
Is Spell Snare better than Disrupt? Counter their Hymns, Sinkholes, Swords, etc while drawing the card. Great for Tempo. It also is good against combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Waikiki