Who said you're using Jittes for Tarmo-wars? Jittes are efficient when dealing with decks like Merfolk, Goblins and Goyf Sligh/Zoo decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atog
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Who said you're using Jittes for Tarmo-wars? Jittes are efficient when dealing with decks like Merfolk, Goblins and Goyf Sligh/Zoo decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Atog
Nobody. But can't that be used for that? Then i must read that card wrong.. But there came answer what i was looking for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Citrus-God
I think the Jittes are a bit slow in this deck, thats why I think 2 is the right number. But they are very useful when dealing with goblins and random/rogue/crappy decks. Counter-top, if assembled early, will shut down the majority of the tier 1 decks (including Merfolk and Slight/Zoo) on its own. Jitte is just that little extra help that's always welcome.Quote:
Originally Posted by Citrus-God
This thread needs more decklists.
Joke aside, there seriously is a ton more decklists than sustainable to in this thread (there are actually 20 decklists in the last 3 and a half pages). It's gotten up to the point where a huge number of posts are basically "Here is my decklist. Thoughts ?". With sometimes at least an explanation of possible peculiar choices.
Still, most probably the same post could be made without the decklist, just pointing out the possibility of playing said peculiar cards. the major difference would be being able to at least having a discussion revolving around those cards, instead of 90 % space and time spent reading decklists, saying it looks fine / weird / whatever, while also keeping people out of a larger picture (ie, one where the last posted decklist may not be the "general consensus", if such a thing exists), or ignoring 90 % of posts because who the hell wants to successively read twenty random decklists.
I don't know if I made my point clear, but I really don't feel like the thread is currently being productive (or let's say as productive as it should if you prefer), and I just wanted to point it out so that maybe this could change, either by a change in posting habits or maybe action of the mods, if enough people feel the same way.
Agreed. Again, not to be derisive, but reading decklists without a decent tournament report or primer gets annoying even for a deck that you might already be familiar with. This is especially important because other people will notice things in your report and ask questions, which will remind you of (or inspire) things that may not have occurred to you.
I feel like I should be writing a primer/report after making such a statement, but I haven't had the time to play much Legacy lately. I would submit that Chrome Mox literally won the game for my opponent last time I played against a CounterTop deck. He went first; went Mox, land, CB, go; I tried to play a one-drop and he raw-dogged a Brainstorm with CB; he untapped and dropped a Top; I spent the next ten minutes watching him win.
The question, at that point, becomes whether you want to risk running Mox Diamond in a deck with only 19ish lands, as well as whether you're okay with throwing a card you well might end up needing to Chrome Mox, but that advantage is absurd enough that I wanted to throw it out there.
Can someone explain the appearance of Jitte in CBTop lately? I've just seen Jitte as an aggressive card (often techy too) that's used in a deck with a lot of creatures. Most CBTop lists run about 10 from what I understand. Are there better solutions for 4 mana?
With that said, I have an interesting meta full of assorted Lord Aggro decks (Elves, Soldiers, Merfolk, Master Affinity), burn decks, and jank but then I have to play against better players with better decks (Stax, Pro Survival, Welder Survival, Belcher, Goblins). What do you guys think of UGwr or UGr CBTop? The red is pretty much for Pyroclasm/Firespout. I know that white=control red=tempo usually but with such a strange combination of players, I need some help keeping aggro under control while being able to not lose much deck strength against the tougher decks. Or is there a strong enough UGr list (with CBTop) that has a fair chance to beat out some of the tougher decks while still being able to give the junky decks a pounding? Or should I just splash a little red and rock out a Clasm or Spout?
Interesting that you mention Chrome Mox, i thought about the same after watching this video. Given its about Extended, but the same pricinciples apply here more or less, while keeping in mind that we have 4 additional carddisadvantage spells in FoW.Quote:
I would submit that Chrome Mox literally won the game for my opponent last time I played against a CounterTop deck. He went first; went Mox, land, CB, go; I tried to play a one-drop and he raw-dogged a Brainstorm with CB; he untapped and dropped a Top; I spent the next ten minutes watching him win.
The question, at that point, becomes whether you want to risk running Mox Diamond in a deck with only 19ish lands, as well as whether you're okay with throwing a card you well might end up needing to Chrome Mox, but that advantage is absurd enough that I wanted to throw it out there.
If we explore Chrome Mox some more, i want to discuss the following points:
- How many land and Moxens? I would say between 16-17 Land and 4 Moxen, because you want to see it in your opening hand.
-Splash colours (in the Mox version and in general). I really favor the three colour version for its consistency (be it Ugb or Ugw) over the power that the 4 colour version gives.
In the Mox version, i would go for 4 CB and 4 Confidant to negate the card disadvantage. The biggest problem of Ugb i see, is the removal suite. If we go this route, i suggest 2 Smother and 2 Ghastly Demise. Smother is solid, but may be a little bit clunky. Ghastly needs some testing, but i think that the GY gets filled fast enough to handle eg Goyf. Maybe the wrong call though.
Here the Vid for reference:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxeVlod3GXI
I cant comment on Ugr CB/Top, always thought Jitte was a tool to support mentioned Aggro matchups and boost the cmc 2 count for Ugw.
But even better then that is engineered plague against tribal decks. Then you get DC too. If you have affinity problems, then shattering spree is great for red though. Also Belcher AND Survival can be stoped with pithing needle. If you toss in trinket mage, or enlightened tutor, with engineered explosives and 1 pithing needle you would have a better chance of stoping peoples game plan game 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by chokin
I must say I agree with you. Lists alone don't enrich this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by ParkerLewis
What I want to see more often are lists accompanied by it's tournament report.
We should put our lists to the test. I'll try to report some tournament in the next couple of weeks.
I tend to play jitte too. because in a highly aggro meta i like to have more removals...Quote:
Originally Posted by chokin
to be honest: jitte is obligatory in a lot of metas, so recent lists are in my opinion tuned for a certain meta.
my metagame consists of a lot of fishy decks (merfolk, tempo thresh, team america, ur-fish, black death, etc.) and some combo-aggro versions (elves and soldiers), and things like ww, burn. jitte is not really obligatory against ta and tempo thresh but in the other cases resolving a jitte is gg.
adding red would be a nice idea, too. but im not to confident in the effectiveness of my manabase anymore. (i only play 17 lands - so its more or less thresh i play...) its not only firesprout/pyroclasm that makes red strong but also reb or pyroblast. in a meta consisting of a lot of u builds reb is just a bomb.
I recall that the particular deck I was playing against was actually UBw; it ran white for StP and I think for some win condition and some sideboarding options. Dark Confidant is a house in that deck; all your cards are really efficient, plus you're running Tops anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by deadlock
Given that you're running Top to keep it from killing you via Bob, I don't see why you couldn't have two Tombstalkers if you're going UBw, maybe three. You could also rock Serra Avenger, since you spend the first couple turns establishing tempo anyway and her drawback doesn't matter.
Smother vs. Ghastly Demise is an interesting question. A key issue for me is that Demise never kills Dreadnought, although I suppose if a CB deck lets Dreadnought hit the table it deserves to lose. Swords to Plowshares on a Dreadnought is ugly too. Then again, I feel better about Demise against Goblins, Merfolk, and Zoo due to its lower mana cost, and it's almost as good against Aggro Loam for the same reason (only worse because it doesn't kill Bob). It's also better against Dragon Stompy because their guys all cost four and five (except Magus, but you need to counter that anyway). It's much worse, obviously, in a black-heavy meta (Eva Green, most variants of Rock, Team America), and I think if you remove Loam's Bob Loam is manageable. Bonus points if you steal it and use it to beat them.
In the same vein, you might consider a couple Shriekmaw, either main or board; they counter Force of Will with CB on the table, they can terror things, and they have fear. Five mana might be a little awkward to have to hardcast though.
Do we want to think about maindecking a couple Threads of Disloyalty at that point? It takes many relevant threats, it's available turn two with a Mox (before the 2-cost problem gets to hit you), and it's pitchable to Force when it's not relevant. It seems like not the best option to me, but it also seems worth a shot. (With the lower land count, Shackles is out.)
I agree that three colors is better for consistency's sake, especially if you're cutting down lands to accommodate Moxen. Moxen make the deck thunderous enough to be worth not running Goyf.
Yes, I said it; I don't think this deck needs Goyf. Especially if you wind up with Jitte; Jitte plus active CounterTop is hard to fight through for most decks.
I played Next Level Brass card for card at the SCG:5K Boston to a 5-3 finish. Don't really remember names.
Round 1- Nassif-ish style Countertop
Game 1, I lose when I decide to Krosan Grip his top before he has Counterbalance, but he goes on to play another Top and Counterbalance and which I can't seem to answer. Board in a Krosan Grip.
Game 2, I win quickly with an early CB/top followed by Goyfs.
Game 3, I lose when I assume he is playing around Krosan Grip and go to Grip a Counterbalance after he tops at the end of my turn, but apparently I am over thinking things as he reveals Threads of Disloyalty to Counterbalance. This was match was probably winnable, but i have not played the deck that much.
Round 2- I am never sure what he is playing, but it appears to be Uwg Landstill with Stifle and Wastelands, Counterspell, Swords, Crucible, Planeswalkers, though I never see a Standstill.
Game 1, I get Countertop out. I really win when he goes to play Elspeth but I have a Brainstorm to get Sower on top of my library and eventually beat him down with it. Board in Pithing Needle.
Game 2, I get Countertop out, and when he has 5 mana out, he plays EE with sunburst 2 but a CMC 3, so I look with top but don't have a 3 drop, so I pop a fetchland and he stifles leaving him unable to use EE that turn. He doesn't do anything else and after the game I see that his only hate for Counterbalance was EE.
Round 3- GerryT with Uwg Countertop feat. Intuition and Loam action.
Hes obviously a better player then me, but my deck is clearly stronger.
Game 1, He gets a counterbalance out, but no top. I fearlessly charge through it and get a Counterbalance of my own out and a Top. At some point, I am left vulnerable as I cash in my top to counter a brainstorm for some reason. So I play a Sower that gets sworded and then another Sower that he is forced to concede to. Board in a Relic and Krosan Grip.
Game2, I remember administering beats with Goyf alot and then it getting sworded at some point finishing him off with Trinket Mage.
Round 4- Vintage guy borrowing ELD's Ugr Dreadstill.
Dreadstill is my usual go to deck, and so I am very familiar with its weaknesses and how to exploit them.
Game 1, he plays an early standstill but has no factory, leaving me free to play a bunch of lands and then Brainstorm during his EOT and make him discard 4 cards. I untap and get Countertop assembled and win from there.
Game 2, I think he gets Countertop assembled and then plays Dreadnaught. I think I Grip his top or something and then Ancient Grudge the Naught. This leaves me free to play CounterTop and Tarmogoyf on my turn, I win from there.
Round 5-Incinerator w/ Gwb deck with Vindicate, Deed, Maelstrom Pulse, Spiritmonger, Witness, Sakura Tribe Elder
Game 1, He thoughtseizes away a Krosan Grip which has me think he is playing Survival and then takes away Shackles then next turn while I play ponder and then assemble Countertop. He goes to Vindicate my Academy Ruins when I have only 3 mana, but I fortunately have a 3 drop to counter it. I think he manages to Deed my board at some point, but I cash in my top and follow it up with another Counterbalance. Not losing my Ruins proves to be crucial as I never see another Academy Ruins, and need to get back my discarded Shackles and play my other Shackles so that I can win by gaining control of both of his Spiritmongers.
Game 2, He goes land top, but misses his 2nd land drop for like 6 turns while I cheerfully play Countertop. He does extirpate Ponder and Brainstorm though. I also don't see a goyf and am forced to slowly beet him down with a single Sower of Temptation and eventually win in extra turns.
Round 6- Merfolk
Frustrating games.
Game 1, He playes an Aether Vial and I don't have force. I Grip it, so he follows it up with second and third Vials and also don't have the Spell Snare for a Standstill later, so I lose.
Game 2, He starts with Vial and has only Mutavault for mana. Somehow I don't have Force or Pithing Needle and I lose again when I don't have enough mana to play Firespout and pay for Cursecatcher.
Round 7- Dragonstompy
More frustrating games. In both of these games I am just not really able to do much. I think he starts game 1 with a Trinisphere that I force, I play top and then he plays a Magus of the Moon and my top reveals a whole bunch of lands coming. I think I screw up by playing a Sower too soon, but I need blockers for his Gathan Raiders and Magus of the Moon. He then goes on to play Rakdos Pit Dragon equipped with a Jitte that I don't have a Spell Snare for and I lose again.
Game 2, I can't remember any details, but I am pretty sure I draw a lot of lands while he swings with Dragons.
Round 8- RoddyVR w/ Meathooks
Game 1, He gets an Aether Vial that I don't find any answers to and rides it to victory.
Game 2+3, I don't really remember, but I know that when he doesn't manage to stick an Aether Vial, I don't have to hard a time winning with Countertop. During one of the Games he mulls to 5.
Some thoughts on the deck:
4 Counterbalance and 4 Top- This is old news, but I am use to Dreadstill which usually does not run the maximum of each card, but playing 4 of each is seriously good, and wins games. Drawing extra Counterbalances don't bother me it all because they do get destroyed occasionally.
Sower of Temptation- I love this card. Some people say it is a win more because when you need counterbalance to protect it and if you have Countertop assembled, you have already one. I don't think this is the case, especially in deck with a diverse Mana curve where some cards might slip through occassionally. This card ends the game like Phyrexian Dreadnought, but doesn't require all 8+ slots devoted to it.
Trinket Mage- I wasn't really thrilled with this card, it felt weak all day, but I love Pithing Needle and EE. I want to replace it with Vendillion Clique, but I that obviously makes the singleton EE and Needle much worse. Not sure what to do about that.
Lots of 3 drops- Having 7 3-drops is great for Counterbalance. Vindicate just doesn't kill Counterbalance against this deck.
Only 8 2 drops- This would be terrible in Dreadstill, but in this deck its fine. If its a creature just steal it. If its Counterbalance, just Grip it.
The mana base- I like lots of basics, though that didn't come up in this tourney too much. 22 lands seemed like too many though. I think I would as least cut an Island or an Academy Ruins for the 4th Ponder.
Very interesting that you mention this, for me it stood up as a design flaw from the first moment.Quote:
Only 8 drops- This would be terrible in Dreadstill, but in this deck its fine. If its a creature just steal it. If its Counterbalance, just Grip it.
UG Counter Top has a hard time to push up its cmc 2 spells, beside the obvious 8, there are 2-3 Dazes and ... ? Maybe Jitte or even Counterspell?
I am still not convinced that 8 is enough, usually covering the cmc2 slot with enough spells is most important.
Concerning Trinket Mage, if you cut him, i would also cut the one-ofs in the maindeck. Personally i feel two is the right number for none Dreadstill decks.
If you test Clique let me know how it works, i have reserved two slots in my Ugb build for it, but dont know if its good enough.
Another question is how many maindeck slots should be devoted to removing CB once it lands for the opponent? Also how important is it?
I am thinking of situations were disruption doesnt help - eg both players emptied their hands and are more or less in topdeck mode and one gets a CB online.
If we compare a couple of archtypes (i only count to remove the first, therefore 3 Mage + 1 EE is four ways to remove it):
Nassif Ugwb: 3 (2 Trygon, 1 Grip)
NL Brass: 6 (3 Mage, 1 EE, 2 Grip)
SPOD Ugw: 7 (4 Pridemage, 2 Mage, 1 EE)
For almost any build i would start with two Trygon Predators / a couple of Pridemages in an Ugw build and if there is room 2 Mage + 1 EE.
Personally i wouldnt play Grip in the maindeck.
Have anyone played nassif's list in tournament lately? Just thinking that is that tuned too much for cb/top mirror, and could those trygons and grip replace example with locescale coatls.. i tested some games with those and sometimes i missed those predators. But those coatls can grow HUGE fast so they could be better choice. So should we concentrate with that list to g2/g3 with grips if we need them?
Yes, I play a varient of nassif's list that I posted earlier....Ah here it isQuote:
Originally Posted by Atog
Lands
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
2 [CHK] Island (3)
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [R] Tropical Island
3 [R] Tundra
2 [U] Underground Sea
Creatures
4 [FUT] Tarmogoyf
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
2 [LRW] Sower of Temptation
2 [ARB] Lorescale Coatl
2 [ARB] Qasali Pridemage
Spells
2 [FD] Vedalken Shackles
4 [CST] Swords to Plowshares
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [CS] Counterbalance
3 [NE] Daze
4 [AL] Force of Will
2 [LRW] Ponder
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
Sideboard
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 4 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 3 [SOA] Rhox War Monk
SB: 1 [WL] Gaea's Blessing
(what I played last night is one less goyf and 1 more e.e. cuz its in the mail, long story)
All I did was take nassif's list and add coatl's and pridemages, and tuned it to a tad bit more of my liking. I've played it twice now and the first tourny I went 3-1-1 and got top 4 for a split. then actually last night I went 4-0-1 then sadly lost in top 8, heyyyy I got some time ill throw out a quick tourny report.
Now I'm not very good at this soo gimme a little slack
First Match:ITF
First game: This one was akward, we both went down to 6, and he went aggro on me(which his ITF build is actually my version that I ran for 3 months, that I gave him) he dropped down 2 tarmogoyfs and and eternal witness to bring back counterspell to keep me off the board, it ended quickly.
Second game: I drop and early top and balance. he gets down a goyf. and we sit at a counter war for a bit( I was having bad luck on top) and eventually he ran out of a hand and I was about about 6, I dropped a sower and stole his goyf and with countertop rode it all the way.
Third game I get down counterbalance but no top, and with the luck of god shanked out 3 blind counterbalances out of his 4 spells played through the next 4 turns and I was able to get a goyf down and a qasali, he gets down a deed which I daze, he pays for it and only have 1 mana open.. he give me the sad face when I swing with a better goyf and then sac to stop the deed. He then sees the sad face and draws 3 lands in a row for the win.yay
1-0
Second match, Old old old old school thresh with goyf.This deck was litterally old school green blue threshold with wearbear, predict and everything with a throw in of goyfs.
first game, he goes fetchland into a wasteland, which I go WOAH WAIT A SEC and he goes oh didn't kno I couldnt get that...:eek: soo I correct him and we keep playing, he drops down a wearbear, which I let go, he then drops a mongoose which I counter, he drops another wearbear and a goyf(mind you he doesnt swing at all) and I drop a goyf and a qasali(the goyfs are only 3/4s and he has 2 wearbears that are 4/4. At this point he has like 5 cards in hand and I ahve 3 lands. He shows his noobish even more by not attacking and drawing and saying go. I do the same untill I get about 5 good cards and drop down a sower and a shackles, steal both wearbears and beat face.
Second game, he kept a no land hand and doesnt see a land for 4 turns and dies shortly after
2-0
third match: some sui black deck with priest of ghix and equipments and stuff
well first match he goes dark right preist of ghix, I daze the priest, I drop down counterbalance by turn 3 and he goes priest on turn 3, i say ok, he drops another one, and the hippy, I drop down explosives for 3 and say go, he drops down sword with dark rit and equips, I take 10 damage tot he face BAM, it put me down to 5, I blew explosives and dropped goyf. he plays a hippy for last card and says go, I play shackles and steal, he sees too many lands and I run with it.
Second game, he doesnt do a thing till turn 3 which I daze the priest. I play top, he then plays hippy, I play sower and take it, he tries to damnation I force, then I swing with his hippy to hit is last card, I then drop a counterbalance and win out.
3-0
fourth match I played against GWU natural order thresh. I really dont remember much about this match, other than he plays with knights of the reliquary, and I keep those off the board at all times and steal his goyfs he never had a creature to use natural order, I dont hink I killed him with any of my creatures at all.
4-0
Ben and I split for the last match, he was playing dredge
4-0-1
Playoffs, I play against that dude that did the report about coatl winter orb deck, well this was screwey, First game I lost it for myself, I have 4 islands in play and a shackles, he plays that knight that gets +1+1 for each land in your graveyard, and the ability to sac a land to get another one. well he has 1 land in play, he goes to use ability, and I thinking to myself Nah Is till got one mroe turn to wait till its too big, well to my dumbness he gets a fetch land and sacs it so i cant steal his creature. I start searchin like crazy for an answer, and see nothing, he drops another one and i lose cuz of a play mistake.
second game he mulls to 4 and I drop double goyf early and win
third game he mulls to 5 and I mull to 6, we both have poor hands and we both draw into cards, and I was able to get him down to 3, then he stablizes with that stupid knight and when he played it, it was bigger than my goyfs and he was able to remove my counterbalance and had 2 swords to kill my goyfs, and he finishes me off. sad face.
Updated opening post with 1,300 words about Counter Top.
I need to put up an open questions since maybe everyone I've been playing against is doing it wrong.
You are playing some Thresh varient in Game One of a match, and on the play, your opponent doesn't play a land, then RFG's a Putrid Imp to cast Unmask targeting themselves; would you Force of Will it if able?
The theory behind doing so from the Hatfields, Gearhart, etc. is that in this match you always stop their discard outlet if possible. So if they pitch a PImp without laying a land, it's extremely likely that Unmask is all thay have.
But they could be wrong?
I would abide by their logic to FoW. Why would Ichorid Unmask itself, if it has another outlet? They could/should just Unmask you then instead, to protect the other outlet and disrupt any plan you might have...
Maybe they have no outlet or lands so they're using their protection as an outlet?
That's the ONLY reason why I'd ever in a million years consider making myself discard vs control. The better solution is to mulligan I think. Or make them discard and hope to draw land.
While I would also Force, as there's a good chance this isn't a trick but is actually all they have, I disagree with your assessment. Ichorid has times where it -should- Unmask itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Serbitar
What if Ichorid has a hand of, say, Cephalid Coliseum, Breakthrough, Putrid Imp, Unmask, Golgari Grave-Troll, Deep Analysis, Narcomoeba?
Here Ichorid would absolutely lead with Unmasking itself against Countertop. Unmasking the opponent would clear the way for a non-dredging Breakthrough for 0 and a slow but not unwinnable start. Unmasking yourself either draws the Force and lets you STILL get the weak Breakthrough, or gets the Troll in the yard and lets you follow with the Breakthrough. If they don't have the Force, you made the right call hitting yourself. If they do have it and held it back on your Unmask, you still have a Troll in the yard.
That all said, the result is only very slightly worse in this case if you Forced the Unmask. So I'd Force the Unmask if it targeted them.