[Deck] Dredge

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Originally Posted by dlevsApiJ

Why did you want something else? Because he was overkill in some situations? In others he saved your ass, remember (or not, because you could lose to topdecks that you don't see when winning with FKZ)?

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I just like to test new options :laugh: And since there were slots i didnt want to remove from the MD i tried cutting FKZ. But even as this said I think you made your point.

I guess its just the Hypnotist that is the overkill, not the FKZ :tongue:

I will cut the paradise for a city again, just because the lifeloss is less relevant with the new rules. (like Parcher stated earlier).

So its almost back to list in the primer, but with some very little tweeks:rolleyes:

About the GG vs TT... Dont know, i will have to test this. But im actually pretty satisfied about the rest of the board.

~Maarten

This is funny to have such contention over what boils down to one card difference in the deck. I never claimed that Hypnotist was stictly better than FKZ, just that he would be in certain situations. And that he's better when not used for his original purpose. I did run the list to find out if it was at least viable though;andI believe that it is..In certain metagames will be better than FKZ. The sideboard was also an experiment, and I admitted was not that good as-is. Too wishy-washy with two of this and that, which is always the bane of this deck.

Basically the opening list is good enough that I needed to try new things, or switch decks due to boredom.

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Originally Posted by Parcher

Basically the opening list is good enough that I needed to try new things, or switch decks due to boredom.

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My philosophy beyond the boredom is to make the finest deck. Let's say...a dredge with MD flexibility. I think that the triad: FKZ + EW + SH is good enough for that aim.

The problem is, there no real optimal setup. Depending on your metagame SH may be a beast, but in my metagame I would never dare playing without Woodfall Primus MD for the fear of random shit.

All we can do here is discuss the possibilities, the upsides and main uses of each card.

I, for example just love Careful Study, it's such a good card (most of the time) and as my meta isn't blue as the sky it just gets me free wins against most aggro decks.

My conceptual basis for constructing an "optimal deck" is to suppouse that i'm going to play "blind". I mean, in an open tournament in which i could find anything. Off course, i can't run all the possibilities in cards we have but what i can do is to choose those card that could fit in the most of situation, random or not. Conserning that, cards like unmask for example are great because it can give you information about your opponent's deck. Here, SH is "always useful" (but not always optimal) beyond the numbers of card of your opponent's hand because it's bidirectional. That's why i choose him. Because i think that in any metagame it would be useful although not always optimal as i say. I feel that SH fills better this "blindness" than WP (which is a great guy, i admit). I don't know if i'm being clear...

I agree that there is not a likely perfect configuration regarding the DR targets. If there were, it would probably require three, (two of one, and one of the other) and I can't believe that there will ever be room for this without sacrificing something else.

One thing people need to remember with Hypno; there's a reason why I stress turn two, or three on the play(which is very reasonable game one). That is that he also discards lands. How many other cards in the came effectively do that. Not only is it incredibly effective at stunting your opponent's plan, this fear of topdecks for losing the theoretical turn from not having FKZ is often unwarranted. It's highly likely that they will top whatever answer they need, and be able to effectively implement it on two or less lands. And if they do draw the land they need, they have to do it before to spell since you'll just Therapy it otherwise. These are odds I'm willing to take.

I tried the deck with 2 Hypnotists and 1 Witness (3 Dread Returns), 2 Unmask on the last Tournament, and i found the Hypnotists very ...bad.

They won me 1 game against TES, but this was all they did...

I wished so often that it would be an FKZ, an Unmask or something other, but not SH

..have any other guys of you done some testing with them?

YawG

In a tournament I once tested running Auriok Salvager and Pyrite Spellbomb in my side. Sadly enough I was not paying attention that day and lost horribly to the crappiest decks even pre sideboard. So I can’t confirm if this works or not but it does doge all non grave hate.
There are some really obvious disadvantages,
1) You need both cards to be in your graveyard + Dread return
2) You need 2 mana to get starting
The first problem is just what it is, just dredge enough. The second problem can be resolved by first dread returning your Eternal Witness and grab a LED.
So in the end it has at least some boundary conditions, being: 2 DR, 1EW, 1 Salvager and the spellbomb must be in the grave.

And even if it isn’t the best solution (which it probably isn’t) it is really cool to win a game like this.

In my opinion cutting FKZ in favour of SH is an error...

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Originally Posted by Yawgmoth'sWill

..have any other guys of you done some testing with them?

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Nope, it would be a waste of my time.

You just don't test Reach Through Mists instead of some Brianstorms in your ThreshThreshThreshThreshThresh as well.

When you look at the Pro's en Con's of the cards, I don't see why you would play SH. There is only one rare* situation where he is better; when you won't have enough Bridges to be lethal + your opponent his topdeck is a card that saves him + he has a land in his hand, which he needs to cast his ass-saver. Am I right? In every other situation, CT's or just FKZ will end the game in your favor.

(*I think mythic would be a better word here, since the situation is very, very, very uncommon!)

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Originally Posted by dlevsApiJ

Nope, it would be a waste of my time.

When you look at the Pro's en Con's of the cards, I don't see why you would play SH. There is only one rare* situation where he is better; when you won't have enough Bridges to be lethal + your opponent his topdeck is a card that saves him + he has a land in his hand, which he needs to cast his ass-saver. Am I right? In every other situation, CT's or just FKZ will end the game in your favor.

(*I think mythic would be a better word here, since the situation is very, very, very uncommon!)

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Say you go for the turn 2 win, you flip 2 Moebas and 2 Bridges. Then sac a Moeba to Therapy and Dread Return to SH and win. FKZ doesn't do nothing for you in that situation, and that happens a lot to me.

I don't even like SH that much, but your comment was just biased.

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Originally Posted by alderon666

Say you go for the turn 2 win, you flip 2 Moebas and 2 Bridges. Then sac a Moeba to Therapy and Dread Return to SH and win. FKZ doesn't do nothing for you in that situation, and that happens a lot to me.

I don't even like SH that much, but your comment was just biased.

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Troll does.

And the therapy('s) will help him.

Has anyone encountered some problems against merfolk ?
Their 8 daze effects, 4 force of will seem to have slowed me a lot. Especially when the opposite player see two-three of these per game..

Also, the beatdown of waketrasher can't be really hard, and they can slow you a lot with a single wasteland or a jitte.


I've been thinking about this side, less vunerable against graveyard hate / counters.

3 Tireless Tribe
3 Firestorm
3 Ancient Grudge
4 Chain of Vapor
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Woodfall Primus

I would most likely side in Tireless tribe / firestorm to stall a bit some aggro deck and recover easier from graveyard game 2. And then side them out for game 3.
Ancient grudge /chain of vapor could be really relevant game 3, when you're trying to go faster, and can help you play agressive on opposite relic / Crypt.
By the way, I've never seen myself siding in Chain of vapor, except if they were playing black, where I would have prefered Wishpmare or ray of the revelation... I'm doubting it's power...

I did...i choose wispmare to crash their Pganda and gargadon to jump their grave have...off course CoV comes in too. I think it´s a hard match but maybe using SH main deck it could be better.

I played this deck today and it wen't rather smoothly despite my doubts. Still the only games I lost were games against double crypt. One of those I nearly won because the player was kinda bad but he had Jund Charm to back it up. I can't really see any viable strategy to win against double Crypt without Needle (which I had in my board due to incompleteness but didn't draw). Is this a calculated risk that you just have to accept when choosing this deck?

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Originally Posted by Manhattan

I played this deck today and it wen't rather smoothly despite my doubts. Still the only games I lost were games against double crypt. One of those I nearly won because the player was kinda bad but he had Jund Charm to back it up. I can't really see any viable strategy to win against double Crypt without Needle (which I had in my board due to incompleteness but didn't draw). Is this a calculated risk that you just have to accept when choosing this deck?

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Many people have move and no longer use needle.
Personally, I prefer Ancient grudge over needle. If you have ancient grudge + putrid imp /tireless tribe + dredger, it's almost sure that you win. You can easily play the ancient grudge for 2 on a crypt and then let it sit in your graveyard to destroy another crypt. And if you dredge into it, ancient grudge is not useless.

...The problem with Needle is, that you need to know what to say (Crypt or Relic), its an 50/50 Chance, and that makes Needle bad...

...sometimes your opponent Boards other hate than these 2 and Needle is somewhat useless to fight through it.

I don't like Ancient Grude, because 2 Mana to cast could be too expensive, and if the opponent has an Relic or Crypt you need to dredge into Grudge, to force the opponent to blow up his Crypt/Relic, and with bad luck, you can lose very much cards you need for the win.


I like Gargadon... It is good to force the opponent to use Crypt/Relic, and if the opponent hasn't these cards, it enables combat-tricks and saves Ichorids

...only downside is that in most cases, you need it in the opening hand to have use for it :(

YawG

I didn't want this to turn into a "why Needle is bad" discussion, but a "how do you battle double Crypt without Needle" discussion.

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Originally Posted by Manhattan

I didn't want this to turn into a "why Needle is bad" discussion, but a "how do you battle double Crypt without Needle" discussion.

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You slowroll them and force them to use crypt or grudge them forcing to crack the crypt

soo I guess ill post it since none of you dredge players have found it out.....
Earnest is the winner of legacy championship in indy with dredge..... hopefully his decklist will come out, being a person who knows earnest well, this is his second high profile win with dredge, him being the first dredge person to ever get pro points with this deck.