[Deck] Ultimate Walker

You're completely right on the fact that my list looks like the UW(x) landstill lists disgussed at Mtgthesource. However, in my opinion, it's still an Ultimate Walker list with more raw power than the Ultimate Walker lists disgussed here.
I personally think that playing sub-optimal cards like Ancestral Vision, Firespout (although it has some pro's), Lightning Helix and many other cards (like forbid) should not a good example for what Ultimate Walker could really do. I'm pretty confidant that my last has more raw power than Ultimate Walker, in terms of removal. And in fact has more raw power than UW(x) Landstill, in terms of planeswalkers and thus have an advantage in the mirror.

I see no real advantage of playing cards like Lightning helix, Firespout, Ancestral Vision, Vedalken Shackles over Cunning wish, Moat, Wog etc.

Why Moat over Humility?

Because I think that Moat has a better synenergy with Planeswalkers than Humility.
Since Humility will not solve the problems (facing PW's) but makes them only smaller. However, with swarms, your PW's will die aswell.
Moat just solves the problem by not giving them the chance to ruin your PW's. They simply can't attack.

In Landstill, I've always preferred humility over moat, because most MD solutions to enchantments are creatures (pridemage, trygon, harmonic sliver) that humility can deal with. But I guess Moat could work for you since Walkerstill is more oriented around dominating with planeswalkers as opposed to the board control of landstill.

I've personally never had problems dealing with the 1/1's with Elspeth out. In other situations, factories and decree helped with humility.

Of course it costs more to tutor up AV with Tolaria West. However, with that argument, running any tutor/wish is a bad idea.

I was just pointing out that's another bonus to using AV over Standstill in this deck.

Here's the list I was fiddling around with this weekend:

4 Force of Will
3 Engineered Explosives

3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Ancestral Vision
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
1 Enlightened Tutor

2 Lightning Helix

2 Jace Belaren
3 Volcanic Fallout

2 Wrath of God
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Humility
2 Ajani Vengeant

4 Flooded Strand
2 Wooded Foothills

2 Volcanic Island
4 Tundra
3 Plateau

1 Island
1 Plains

3 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tolaria West

Heavier on the red and white. Fallouts were ok, but I'd like to try out Firespout in that slot. The Helixes were pretty good, being able to kill 3 toughness guys as well as giving you some life for a little breathing room against Zoo and Suicide decks.

I'm also wanting to go back to trying a few Fire/Ice because I was having some problems finding blue cards to pitch to FoW.

I personally like Humility over Moat because Humility shrinks down every creature. Since my list also runs so many sweepers, Humility really makes them better (since under Humility, their only option is to overextend on creatures). I haven't really had problems with 1/1's attacking my planeswalkers either and as Dearleader pointed out, shutting off creature based enchantment hate is huge.

Also in my metagame, Tombstalkers and Trygons are all over the place, so Moat just isn't as good.

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Originally Posted by Cenarius

I see no real advantage of playing cards like Lightning helix, Firespout, Ancestral Vision, Vedalken Shackles over Cunning wish, Moat, Wog etc.

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These cards give you a huge advantage over the options typically seen in UWx Landstill versus the agro match. That is the major difference I see in the two decks, is that Ultimate Walker has geared itself to be better suited against the surge of Zoo, Tribal, and creature heavy CB decks (w/ 10+ guys) decks. It has replaced Landstill's versatility (Cunning Wish, Fact or Fiction, Nev Disk, Counterspell) with some more narrow but metagamed removal (Lightning Helix, Firespout).

Lightning Helix is a 2 for 1 against Zoo, and answers Nacatl or Pridemage a turn faster than Vindicate would. Firespout is a turn faster than Wrath of God, and doesn't require double colored mana, this can be huge against Goblins or Merfolks mana disruption, it's obvious downside is not dealing with fat, if your meta is infested with Tombstalkers and Dreadnoughts in addition to typically Tarmogoyfs than Firespout is subpar, if your meta has alot of Zoo and Tribal Firespout is a great sweeper. Ancestral Vision isn't dead in your hand if your opponent gets a threat or Vial on board unlike Standstill. I agree Shackles is not good in this deck.

Ultimate Walker also abandons the Standstill/Decree of Justice engine and since it doesn't have to function under a Standstill the slots for 2-3 Decrees can become additional Planeswalkers and Crucible(s) (which come online much faster than Decree).

The major selling point I see to the deck is that in the right meta it's curve is almost a full turn faster than Landstill. With it's CA engine being 1cc instead of 2cc, 2nd removal (Helix) being 2cc instead of 3cc (Vindicate), it's sweeper being 3cc (Spout) instead of 4cc (Wrath of God), it's mirror/control bombs being 3cc (Crucible/Jace) instead of 3+cc (Fact or Fiction/Cunning Wish -> X), it's additional win conditions being quite a bit cheaper (Ajani Vengeant / Jace vs. Decree). With this lower curve and faster push to the mid-late game, the control player can end games faster.

I understand that Landstill shouldn't go to time, and that it has the means to end games quickly sometimes too, but at the same time having played the deck at numerous events there have been many games where control is established but the deck still takes forever to win. I think if one has a good idea of what to expect from their meta they can gear Ultimate Walker to bypass that pitfall, while the lower curve can also help pull wins one otherwise might not get.

I'm currently testing and refining an Ultimate Walker/Speedstill blend that goes a little something like this:

"Deck Name"
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Jace Beleren
1 Ajani Vengeant ------------- a 2nd copy could be beneficial...undecided
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will -------------- a total of 19 U cards should do atm
4 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
3 Firespout
1 Vedalken Shackles
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Dismantling Blow ------------- debatable choice but 3 EE don't seem to be enough to fight opposing CBs, and without Wish a Disenchant effect makes sense to me here
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4 Mishra's Factory
2 Plains
3 Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island ---------- probably not going to add Tropical for EE and Spout
1 Academy Ruins

SB (rather self-explanatory, I think):
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Jace Beleren
2 Lightning Helix
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Counterbalance [got inspired by Marius Hausmann]
3 Red Elemental Blast

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I'm very happy with the deck's performance so far, but I'm still open to suggestions and crits.

How well has CB been in the side Klaus?

Add one Plateau to your list. Trust me, it's great.

That list is looking a lot like mine these days, glad to see our testing is taking us in the same direction.

I've already said to you that the i love this list. The only thing I've missed so far is: -1 volcanic + 1 plateau (does not influence shackles that much, but an eventual extirpate on red can be annoying) and 2 path to exile to sneak somewhere - too used to speedstil approach, I feel naked without them! :laugh: It's also true that this list is a little more tuned more versus aggro so firespout is better than path and shackles works as spot removal #5.

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Originally Posted by from Cairo

I agree Shackles is not good in this deck.

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Shackles is great in this deck, both versus aggro than versus control: Re. Re. Re., Reusable Recurrable Removal. What would you ask for more? :tongue: I was also wondering myself about the 2nd copy of vengeant, but the only solution I found was adding another card, or cutting 1 standstill (both of which does not satisfy me so much). I've tested the list yesterday with my team (due to study I can't go to that tournament, so I left aside the other list), and found that:
-the trop is not needed; the most dangerous/annoying flying things get hit by stp (tombstalker) or reb (jenara, faeries in general, feaerie stompy's creatures); while splashing for another color to add supposed versatility to firespout is not needed, the point should remain wether to add a 4th color to improve EE's efficiency: we have discarded this point as well (EE does its best from 0 to 3).
-that singleton dismantling blow, though it may seem a bit random, it never is: it always has a target, and is a wonderful topdeck if you are low on cards; plus, being able to respond to counterbalance with a card more is absolutely needed.

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Originally Posted by Romanus

Add one Plateau to your list. Trust me, it's great.

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I've considered that Plateau before, but I'm still hesitant to add it, even though I've played UWb Landstill with the common Sea/Scrubland split and liked it. The thing with the list above is that it packs 8 [x]UU spells plus Shackles. The Extirpate on Volcanic Island is indeed a horror scenario - I'm guessing however that it will happen about once every 50ish games, making the argument somewhat obsolete.
I know it's a comfortable feeling to fetch your 3rd land and keep all 3 colors no matter what land they waste, but that bonus alone does not convince me to change the config.

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Originally Posted by Romanus

How well has CB been in the side Klaus?

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The main aim of this choice is to provide reasonable combo hate (it definitely outperforms Meddling Mage here), but it also happens to shine against Midrange Aggro, Burn, Sligh, Control and many other decks without access to green for Grip :wink:
The lowered curve (when compared to the original Ult.Walker list) also makes it more powerful. At first I thought the number of CMC 2 spells might be too low but more often than not you'd side in the Helixes alongside the CBs making it an acceptable total of 11 2ers.

Very cool. I've been looking for an excuse to ditch MM and now I have one! :cool:

Chandra Ablaze has been spoiled now - I think she could be interesting in this deck (too bad she costs 6).

She's 4RR, starts with 5 Loyalty counters and her abilities are:

+1: Discard a card. If a red card is discarded this way, Chandra Ablaze deals 4 damage to target player or creature.
-2: Each player discards his or her hand, then draws 3 cards.
-7: Cast any number of red instant and/or sorcery cards from your graveyard without paying their mana costs.

Today i woke up and saw this:

Couldn't it be in the deck as a 1/2-of, to replace a delta? This doesn't fetch basic island, but gives us access to every dual in the deck (like delta) and also basic plains (so a 1-1 split between delta/arid mesa is maybe good enough). Or let's just wait for the blu-red fetch, to replace delta completely.

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Originally Posted by gustha

Today i woke up and saw this:

Couldn't it be in the deck as a 1/2-of, to replace a delta? This doesn't fetch basic island, but gives us access to every dual in the deck (like delta) and also basic plains (so a 1-1 split between delta/arid mesa is maybe good enough). Or let's just wait for the blu-red fetch, to replace delta completely.

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Woke up and saw what?

Probably this:

Arid Mesa
Land
Rare
T, Pay 1 Life, Sacrifice Arid Mesa: Search your library for a Mountain or Plains card and put it onto the battlefield. Then shuffle your library.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=182245

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Originally Posted by Romanus

Woke up and saw what?

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http://mtgsalvation.com/zendikar-spoiler.html
Arid Mesa

Land Rare
{T}, Pay 1 Life, Sacrifice Arid Mesa: Search your library for a Mountain or Plains card and put it onto the battlefield. Then shuffle your library.
#221/249

Wizards are going to print non ally-coloured fetchies...

Ah gotcha.

I vote grab a blue-red. It will let you grab every dual we need.

F*ck sorry, the link disappeared.
The duals aren't a big problem, delta can fetch them as well, and probably 1 arid mesa is good because it fetches a basic plains. I'll wonder if a 3/3 split (3 flooded/3 unstable geyser, the UR one) could give us access to a basic mountain, like the UWb version with vindicate. Something like:

3 Flooded Strand
3 Unstable Geyser
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
1 Dust Bowl
2 Plains
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island

Preside, the basic mountain is clearly for EE@3 and vengeant, though ofc it is not strictly needed (but maybe it is for a secure firespout). But post-side, in MU's like merfolks we side in 5 cards which rely on red, and have only 3 wastable red sources and no crucible. (The absence of crucible is something I miss in these MU's). The same is true for other aggro/aggrocontrol decks, though here 3 volcanics are usually enough to cast ur 3 rebs/helix.

what about Rings of Brighthearth

i was playing in t2 plainswalker and i found it very powerful. now in legacy it can forc fetching, it made elspeth token a 7/7 and ajani go for 6 dmg 6 life so its quite always a goyf dead

and 1st of all it make jace a good draw engine going so :

3
-1 doubled ( + 2 card)
-1 doubled (+ 2 card)
+2 non doubled (+ 1 each)

its 5 card in 3 turn vs 1 is not taht bad i think.

you can forc waste too.

wehat do you think about it??

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Originally Posted by Opax

what about Rings of Brighthearth

i was playing in t2 plainswalker and i found it very powerful. now in legacy it can forc fetching, it made elspeth token a 7/7 and ajani go for 6 dmg 6 life so its quite always a goyf dead

and 1st of all it make jace a good draw engine going so :

3
-1 doubled ( + 2 card)
-1 doubled (+ 2 card)
+2 non doubled (+ 1 each)

its 5 card in 3 turn vs 1 is not taht bad i think.

you can forc waste too.

wehat do you think about it??

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I think it's a cool idea, but might fall into the "danger of cool things". The card by itself is dead unless you have board position to play it and activate it in one turn. (IE: 5 Mana)

Could be a win-more. Test it out and get back to us!