It's amazing until now there are a few still trolling around with Tarmogoyf. Until you truly understand this format please stop trolling around. Pffft!!!
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It's amazing until now there are a few still trolling around with Tarmogoyf. Until you truly understand this format please stop trolling around. Pffft!!!
Survival was never a problem until the arrival of Vengevine. Besides with enough
preparation I don't think it is that hard to overcome the survival engine.
Survival powers a lot of decks and it is a really fun card. would be sad to see it go if that really happens.
The bandwagon-ing on Vengevine survival is driving me crazy. It is not that strong. End of story. I consider NO-Pro a better combo IMO. Survival was already busted since Iona-Retainers. I am still of the opinion that Iona-retainers is better, MUCH more compact and easy to pull off compared to vengevine combo. Just because it T8ed at a GP and seems like a really fun deck to play, people are packing it in large numbers hence the great results. Venges also come from standard and anyone who has a bant deck in legacy (aggro/countertop) can easily port to survival vengevine by buying 4 survivals. If loyal retainers wasn't such a niche and hard to find (as well as expensive) card, we would see more Iona survival IMO. Give it a few months. I guarantee you the performance of Survival vengevine will die off. Until then, I will play UWBG Jacestill at every large tourney and eat Survival for breakfast.
Is Survival/Vengevine the best deck in Legacy? No
But only because Survival/Vengevine isn't a deck. It's a combo. A Reese's Peanut Butter Cup of a Combo.
Why would I describe it like that? Because while peanut butter and chocolate go great together, they still taste awesome with a whole lot else. Survival can rock out Iona/Retainers and Ooze/Devouerers, while Vengevine makes Rootwalla, Wild Mongrel, and Aquamoeba super playable in the format. And that's the problem with the combo. It's really great together, but seperately, you can still have fun with the ingredients. It's a Reese's Peanut Butter Cup.
There's a third card to the combo, however, that people seem to be overlooking: Umezawa's Jitte. This is the card that pulls it all together. Without Survival these decks become glorifed Zoo decks that run sub-standard creatures. Jitte is a powerhouse for their backup plan of straight aggro.
As I said before, Survival/Vengevine isn't a deck, it's a combo. A combo that fits seamlessly into multiple decklists. The truly horrifying thing about Nashville wasn't the number of Survival/Vengevine combos in the top 16, but the variety.
Do me a favor and really look at these deck lists from Nashville's top 16, and imagine what they most closely resemble without Survival/Vengevine-
1st - http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=35428
2nd - http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=35427
3rd - http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=35425
7th - http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=35423
12th - http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=35416
1st is GW and looks like a Zoo deck. Just a bunch of beaters and a little removal. 3 pieces of equipment to back up the horde.
2nd is UG, the deck we were lead to believe Survival/Vengevine was supposed to look like. Without the combo it looks like a terrible Bant deck. Once again, 3 pieces of equipment back up the creatures in this one.
3rd at first glance looks identical to 1st, but then you notice that the Fauna Shamans and Iona/Retainer make it more tuned to Combo. Still there is equipment to back up the Zoo horde.
7th Holy Crap! Noone told me Aluren made the top 8! Look at all that disruption and all the mana dudes! Pure combo. Also the only one of these decks without a Jitte.
12th is titled Retainer Survival, just like 3rd, so it must be the same deck, right? WRONG! This thing looks like a frickin' Madness deck, but somehow finds room for the same Retainer combo and a Jitte.
What makes Survival/Vengevine so dangerous and powerful is that it is not a primary combo in and of itsself. It is instead a supplemental combo that fits into a ridiculously wide variety of decks.
Specifically, look at the 7th place deck. It is trying to win with a sick combo off of a cool new card. But what the hell, a couple of Vengevines couldn't hurt. Peanut Butter Cup.
2nd and 7th run counters. 1st 2nd and 3rd run artifact and enchantment hate creatures. 12th ran Wispmare.
7th ran a kill combo. 3rd and 12th ran a lock combo.
Survival/Vengevine is not the best deck in Legacy.
It is the best combo in Legacy.
I agree with the above poster. I don't think we're close to seeing the end of Survival's evolution. Survival is the best combo because it requires virtually one card, while others (Infernal Tutor+LED, Painter+Stone) require two four-ofs to get going. Survival combo needs a four-of and a twenty-of to get going. The downside is that the opponent can put more pressure on Survival resolving and staying in play, but if Survival gets blown up, instead of having the bulk of the deck being random mana accelerants and draw spells, you still have good creatures like Knight of the Reliquary and Tarmogoyf. That being said, the deck is still not as good as Reanimator/ANT with Mystical, and shouldn't be subject to a banning.
And then Survival plays a Witness to get around the K-Grip. One sb slot to nullify half your hate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pippin
Is this the part where we start to throw random cards in theoretical situations?Quote:
Originally Posted by mchainmail
Stifle on witness. Graveyard hate. Counterspell...
That's what I was hinting in my previous post ... one-sided examples don't really work in discussions
I think what he's is saying is that Survival can tutor up answer to nullify your answers to it. Something like CB protecting itself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pippin
Needle? Tutor Qasali.
Krosan? Tutor Witness.
...
I think we should give Survival some time. If it warps the metagame too much I think it should get the banhammer.
People should play more, I don't know, Helm of the Void? Maindeck Leylines, tutorable Peedle...
This is true. Well, actually, this is the main reason for a ban, the fact that every deck will run it, or will be stockpiling hate against it.Quote:
Originally Posted by jrw1985
I've been developing green Stompy since 2006 and almost never wondered about adding SotF, and now I think it's possible, just because a resolved SofT could win me the game, and yet, basking rootwalla, memnite and vengevine are not bad creatures :P
Teorically, any deck running G can add the combo and wish for an auto-win against some random decks.
Why do people keep posting crap like this? Maindeck leylines? Yea I'll pretend you're joking. It has already been established that there are answers to Survival of the Fittest. We already know that if every deck has peacekeepers then there is a chance to stop the vengevines from attacking or needle stops them from tutoring.... Etc Etc Etc We get itQuote:
Originally Posted by ddt15
This is legacy, every card has answers and I think the Survival deck has answers to the hate also. It has nothing to do with a card combo being broken or not being broken
I can't say I yet agree with 'best' but I appreciate your analysis.Quote:
Originally Posted by jrw1985
Pun intended?Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinTrudeau
I feel that Survival as a card is very strong right now, but not the best deck in legacy. It lives on the hype of Vengevine, and even though dropping out 3-4 4/3s with Haste is a cool trick, it takes a few turns and a bunch of green mana to get there, and even then, the combo can be hated out (as any other non-degenerate combo) fairly easily. I imagine that with the rise of Vengevine Madness and the return of Ichorid as a DTB, people won't leave home without sufficient grave hate any longer.
Seems decent enough versus Survival decks imo. There are plenty of decks that can beat Survival no problem. Its a decent deck with a lil extra oomph around turn 4/5. That there are several gy-based decks in a top8 of one tournament tells me people didn't run enough graveyard hate that tournament.Quote:
Originally Posted by SlopeeJ
At Eli's last event, I ended up winning the first round because my opponent made a play error (what it was I had no idea; he wound up with a Memnite, Progenitus, and Aquamoeba on the table in a span of two turns, which is kind of hard to argue as making a mistake).Quote:
Originally Posted by troopatroop
Yet, I still won. The Madness "outlet" is what makes the deck confusing at times, having to know what tricks to use and when to use them without tripping up and getting the wrong link in your chain of creatures to maximize a Vengevine assault.
How about Leyline of Singularity + Karakas? No Vengevine and Iona to annoy you. :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by SlopeeJ
The combo doesn't roll over and die to GY Hate. The worst you did is make them lose a turn. Guess what you wasted a turn also. They lost 0 cards and alot of mana. you lost 0-little mana depending on what GY hate you used, but you lost a card. You draw 1 card a turn so you still lost a turn, and they still have a reusable demonic tutor in play.
The best answer to it is to win first. The GW is incredibly resistant to hate with main deck tutorable Artifact/enchantment removal and stp. Also some run witness to counteract your enchantment removal. Or they can easily switch to a NO/Pro deck with goyf/KOTR for a back up plan. I would have to say fat green creatures is a pretty good back up plan for a combo deck.
One of the biggest problems with this plan is that most combo decks that win faster are not this resilient to hate. Either they run hate for you or others will do their job with the hate. SOTF is not the fastest deck out there but is hard to answer and is consistent.
Yes, actually, it does. That's kind of what makes something "degenerate" or "broken" in that it makes the combo inherently difficult to stop by how efficient it really is. People willl continue to hate on the deck and it will still continue to put up good numbers not necessarily due to the number of people playing the deck, but the number of skilled pilots playing the deck around hate and playing the deck correctly.Quote:
Originally Posted by SlopeeJ
Tailoring a Survival of the Fittest-based deck requires a great deal of thought. Lists that become more and more dependent on Vengevine as a primary and definitive source of winning games will just subside into mediocrity and people will realize that Survival can, believe it or not, retrieve other creatures in your deck that can do lots of other things (bringing the card almost full-circle). There are a variety of lists playing toolbox options, but I'm seeing (currently anyhow) a major trend in the number of Vengevival decks relying solely on Vengevines to win games. Wild Mongrel and Basking Rootwalla are honestly not going to do it alone.
Also, one more thing to point out (as I've read several people mention this already): Extirpate is not a bad card - especially against a deck like this where Vengevines become critical in winning games faster and faster and eliminating Survival of the Fittest which is in itself a crippling shot in neutering the deck's explosiveness. Extirpate is situational, no one is debating that. But I think its utility is finally catching the eye of people willing to accept its usefulness in today's meta. It is just simply great at what it is supposed to do and that is what any sideboard option should be when considering inclusion.
My testing has shown the same thing. My thought now is that pithing needle might be better than grave hate.Quote:
Originally Posted by HerrFunker
I just want to reiterate what has been said earlier, because some people keep talking about how Survival of the Fittest (the deck) is warping the metagame.
This is patently untrue. The problem is the combo of Survival + Vengevine. Vengevine is the part that is causing problems, because you don't have to actually resolve anything other than Survival for it to be good. Free things have always caused problems in Magic, and Vengevine is just that.
I personally think that the format will evolve to hold Vengevine in check just like it has with Affinity, Counterbalance, Goblins, etc, but if the need should arise to ban something, that something should not be one of the most beloved cards in Magic.
Certainly there is the potential for abuse, but Reanimator is still a deck, and Iona/Retainers is worse than Reanimator, so I wouldn't call it any more abusive than any other combo. Ooze combo is really damn cool, and it wins on the spot, but you have to resolve both Survival and a 2BB creature. Seems pretty fair. Vengevine... you just have to use Survival. Vengevine is clearly the culprit, and if the banhammer comes down, I hope it hits the Angry Ficus instead of Survival, because it would be a shame to knock 10+ completely independent Survival archetypes out of the format just to nail one offending combo.