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I still play spellstutter as a 4 of. It was just a suggestion.Quote:
Originally Posted by oRen
As for stoneforge vs tombstalker, i feel that they both essentially put the opponent on the same clock. Only difference is that stoneforge can give your creatures protection from different colors, card advantage, and removal.
Cutting the sprites actually feel pretty good to me, using a list close to Jona's in the OP. I also have been working with a spellskite as the 4th misstep (in terms of anti swords for Tombstalker) and I can't say I hate drawing it. In some cases, it can block an early goyf, a warren instigator/lackey, and zoo critters. It can also eat bounce or whatever which MM can't do, unless its CoV.
I can also imagine a situation where it's the only creature into play and jitte has at least 1 counter on it to keep it going, but that's kind of stretching it. I might even move up to 2, but I really wouldn't want to be drawing 2 at any given time.
3 Missteps seem like enough, but only time will tell for this one. Maybe in the sideboard because it gains a lot of value on the draw, when daze loses a lot, so it'd be an easy swap against some decks.
Here's the list.
//Lands
1 Island
1 Mountain
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Swamp
1 Badlands
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
//Creatures
1 Spellskite
3 Tombstalker
2 Vendilion Clique
//Other Spells
3 Mental Misstep
4 Bitterblossom
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Fire // Ice
4 Force Of Will
3 Terminate
3 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
2 Umezawa's Jitte
Some times I wish Fire // Ice was a 4th straight up removal, but that's because I'm playing against KoTR tempo a lot recently and some Team America. I really like it as a blue card to pitch and actually gives you a small chance against maverick, although I haven't tested that match up with missteps... Maybe -1 EE (replaced by the Fire // Ice that stays in) +1 removal, but I haven't thought much about that yet.
First off, Stoneforge Mystic is not even close to Tombstalker. Tombstalker is a four turn clock. Stoneforge Mystic needs another turn to set up and requires you to make more landdrops than Tombstalker does, also demanding more colours. When I tested Stoneforge Mystic in this deck, it was always too slow. I don't think it will even be strong enough against Merfolk anymore, which seems to be by far the best deck in the format right now, unless you find a way to beat it reliably while still winning against the rest of the field.
When you're playing Stoneforge Mystic, you will just lose against Zoo (yes, I guarantee that). You're too slow and they're too fast.
This brings us to the next point, the reason I don't play Spellstutter Sprite anymore right now: this deck lacks really strong turn one plays in its current (or should I say former?) incarnation. I was always looking for some way to interact on turn one with this deck, I used to play Curfew for quite some time and even considered Force Spike, just to do something against plays like Wild Nacatl. Now we have Mental Misstep. It perfectly fits the deck, you can fetch for Island on turn one on the play, don't need to tap out on your turn, and you will most likely have a strong play. The amount of reasonable one-drops we have now just doubled.this is really good news for us.
The reason why I didn't Spellstutter Sprite often (enough) to counter one-drops is that it didn't do that reliably. Apart from Swords To Plowshares you want to counter one-drops early on (on turn one). Spellstutter Sprite only does this on the play with Stifle. In situations when you have Bitterblossom out and counter expensive spells you're most likely winning anyway. You don't need to counter Knight Of The Reliquary, you can just chumpblock it. Also, with Mental Misstep, I feel much better boarding out Force Of Will against Merfolk. I hate that card against them, but now we're still able to counter their turn one Æther Vial. Sweet.
Anyway, I think oRen's list is really similar to what I'd be playing if I was still running Spellstutter Sprite. The only changes I'd consider are cutting the Engineered Explosives for another piece of spotremoval and the fourth Bitterblossom. I really really like that list. I enjoy running boatloads of countermagic.
JCLe's list also seems really strong, but I really don't get the Spellskite. Mental Misstep can also counter the Wild Nacatl you can block with it (Exalted kills you by the way). Plus being much more flexible in general. What I can say for sure though is that Umezawa's Jitte in a deck with such a low threat-density always seems like wasted slots to me. Equipment is really awesome if you can hand it to otherwise not that dangerously strong creatures like Noble Hierarch (or Spellstutter Sprite) to draw removal away from your real threats (though it also works on Tombstalker). But if you only have nine cards Umezawa's Jitte interacts with that's really just not enough to support it. Try out sideboard Grim Lavamancers, they do almost the same thing. They beat tribal (delaying your Tombstalker though) plus they function as additional threats against control (and as an out against nasty stuff like Peacekeeper or Ensnaring Bridge). In my testing I liked them a lot, but in the maindeck they're actually not as good. I tried maindeck Lavamancers without Bitterblossom and without Tombstalkers and in neither case I really liked them. In about ten testgames I used it's ability only once or twice. It really didn't make the cut.
Apart from that, it feels really good to see people playing this deck again. After my success with it a few months ago I've also seen some local players pick it up and one managed to go undefeated in a tournament. If you have some tournament reports, let me know. I'm also always interested in seeing what cards other people like in this deck and which cards seem to underperform.
Thanks guys!
Bingo...Misstep is perfect for this deck, I agree COMPLETELY. As soon as I saw it, I knew I'd be playing it in my faeries deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jona
My experience has been the same...Spellstutter is NOT an early game counterspell. It's deceiving...it looks like it says 'counter target 1 mana spell and put a 1/1 faerie with flying into play'...this isn't the right way to look at spellstutter, IMHO. I see it as 'counter target dangerous mid-game spell that attacks my threats' or 'counter target mid-game threat' or 'counter target counterspell in order to win the counter war during the fundamental turn'. Sure you can chump block Goyfs and Knights with BB tokens...but this is also a great reason to make sure your spot removal takes up at least 5 slots (currently 3 Smothes and 2 Doom Blades for me.) If you consider Explosives in the mix (2 maindeck here) then you really have 7 maindeck removals. This saves your tokens for attacking for incremental damage.Quote:
The reason why I didn't Spellstutter Sprite often (enough) to counter one-drops is that it didn't do that reliably. Apart from Swords To Plowshares you want to counter one-drops early on (on turn one). Spellstutter Sprite only does this on the play with Stifle. In situations when you have Bitterblossom out and counter expensive spells you're most likely winning anyway. You don't need to counter Knight Of The Reliquary, you can just chumpblock it. Also, with Mental Misstep, I feel much better boarding out Force Of Will against Merfolk. I hate that card against them, but now we're still able to counter their turn one Æther Vial. Sweet.
I played my list against a Bant Aggro list using Mental Misstep on MWS (I wasn't using MM because I haven't updated my files yet.) There seemed to be a fairly even field as far as skill went, but I wiped the floor with him pretty good. I kept preparing to see NO-Pro, and I never saw it in the 3 games we played. I did aggressively kill Noble Hierarchs and Goyfs (either with removal or counters) which is good against Bant. The real all-star in this matchup was Inquisition of Kozilek. I planned out my turns and had him LOCKED OUT as far as 3 turns in one game. If folks aren't using 4 slots dedicated to targeted discard, then I strongly suggest playtesting it. The only game that was close was when he actually got a chance to protect a Rhox War Monk with Force of Will. The lifegain KILLED me...I had already spent my removal on his earlier green dudes to avoid NO-Pro, but he may have not even been playing it, lol. I played around it knowing it would pretty much be auto-lose.Quote:
Apart from that, it feels really good to see people playing this deck again. After my success with it a few months ago I've also seen some local players pick it up and one managed to go undefeated in a tournament. If you have some tournament reports, let me know. I'm also always interested in seeing what cards other people like in this deck and which cards seem to underperform.
Thanks guys!
It felt good destroying his deck with my budget deck. I wish I had the best cards, but it feels good knowing that play skill reallly DOES matter.
What's the general consensus on colors. Is white or red a better splash?
Red's by far the best splash, the reasoning is in the opening post. There's a lot of useful information in the primer.
Apart from that, I wouldn't want to rely on Swords To Plowshares as my primary removal. I think that relying on one-mana spotremoval is not a good idea right now, Mental Misstep seems to be everywhere. Having Go For The Throat and Firespout seems just fine for now, I expect to see a lot of Merfolk in the future.
So i've been testing a version with red and a version with white. Is firespout so good that it's worth it more to include firespout over swords to plowshares? I know about MM being everywhere, but you also play your own MMs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jona
I feel that swords is really really good and that+stoneforge is enough to warrant a white splash over red. I realize that you're a big supporter of Tombstalker but i feel that a resolved stoneforge mystic is a lot harder to deal with than a resolved tombstalker, only the clock is 1 turn slower, but it's more "guarenteed"
Tombstalker got about a metric ton BETTER with the printing of Mental Misstep. Now we need not fear Swords on him quite so much...it's looking really good for Tombstalker right now. I for one support Tombstalker over SFM, absolutely. Tombstalker can swing games your way (5 evasive damage a turn can change a game state FAST) but SFM can't save you if you're behind.Quote:
Originally Posted by AznSeal
My oh my is this deck good. I've been switching off between these two lists:
UBr
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
4 Dark Confidant
4 Bitterblossom
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Mental Misstep
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Terminate
1 Repeal
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Sideboard:
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Spell Pierce
2 Energy Flux
3 Firespout
2 Sower of Temptation
Esper
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
4 Underground Sea
3 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Swamp
3 Wasteland
4 Dark Confidant
4 Bitterblossom
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Mental Misstep
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Repeal
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
Sideboard:
3 Path to Exile
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Steel Sabotage
2 Spell Pierce
2 Tidehollow Sculler
and I can't decide which one I like more. The mana in the UBr build is better, but the Esper has a higher power level. Mental Misstep and Jace really push them over the top; if they manage to deal with one of the abundant 2 CMC threats and disruption you're packing, they likely won't have any gas left when Jace hits play. I replaced 3 Tombstalkers with 3 Jaces because Tombstalker doesn't fit the curve as well, and I feel that Jace is just better, though I'm not 100% about that. Stifle doesn't really have a place either anymore, as I'd much rather cast a Bob, SFM, Blossom, or Hymn than leave up mana for disruption.
The look of the UBr list I really like fits my play style. Though I would play the 4th Hymn over the 4th MM. Yes it is good but it will always be a 1 for 1. Hymn is probably one of the best spells in the deck and usually a 2 for 1 sometimes more sometimes less. Have you thought possibly about Misdirection SB at all?
I have not really thought about Misdirection, but the sideboard isn't close to being finalized. I'd cut the fourth Ponder before Misstep because Misstep stops Spell Snare and helps you resolve your turn two threat immensely, and since all Ponder tries to do is dig for a spell rather than improve your hand like Brainstorm, cutting a Ponder for a spell you'd be digging for with Ponder seems alright.
That UBR list looks like a monster. I like it.
Did you test Grim Lavamancer? It's a pretty strong sideboard card against control and Merfolk, both of which seem to be popular strategies nowadays. It also works better with Dark Confidant than Firespout does plus it's a one-drop, of which this deck only has few really good ones. Without Stifle you don't really need to keep mana open on turn one anymore anyway, so I'm fine with tapping out more often now.
Grim Lavamancer is also quite strong against Affinity, which is popping up more and more (at least where I play, but it looks like it's also quite popular in the States).
Apart from that I always like to have the full set of Wastelands.
Moving the deck to a more traditional control-route (i.e. cardadvantage over tempoadvantage) seems like an interesting idea to me. After I've seen your list I started working on a similar one, so thanks for sharing. I'm not quite sure how to fill the last few slots though. Right now it looks a lot like creature-based control with Grim Lavamancer and Dark Confidant.
I'm also not sure if I really want to run Jace in this deck, as it woud require me to run more lands (something I really dislike in these kind of decks) and I'm not sure if running Dark Confidant with Force Of Will, Jace, Bitterblossom and Mental Misstep is not too risky. It would be nice to have a wincondition that doesn't lose to Grim Lavamancer or Darkblast though. Running Jace with Wasteland and Daze doesn't seem to good either as you won't reliably cast him before turn five or six.
This is the list I'm stuck with right now:
//Lands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
//Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
3 Grim Lavamancer
//Other Spells
4 Bitterblossom
4 Brainstorm
1 Darkblast
4 Daze
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Force Of Will
2 Go For The Throat
3 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
4 Mental Misstep
4 Ponder
No clue about the sideboard right now. I want to address the most common matchups (Merfolk, Control and Affinity, perhaps Team America) in the maindeck. This list seems to do a pretty good job at that.
Sorry for the thread necromancy, but I think this deck deserves a bit more attention with the recent equipment printings.
With UBr, you gain access to Grim Lavamancer, Firespout, Lightning Bolt and REB/Pyroblast. Grim is awesome, but to consistantly bank on seeing him in the matchups where he matters, you're going to want 3-4 slots devoted to him between main and side. Firespout is rather narrow, and it's often difficult to actually resolve it with Merfolk running Cursecatcher, Daze, Spell Pierce, and FoW -- and late game it can often be too little, too late. Lightning Bolt is either going to be awesome or completely dead, and as a 1CMC removal option, it is just as vulnerable to misstep as StP. I will agree that Blasts are awesome, but running a color for just a few sideboard slots seems somewhat narrow if the rest of the deck doesn't justify it.
With UBw, you gain a ton of options: 4 SFM + Equipment, 4 StP as the best universal removal option, and several strong sideboard options. When you are committing yourself to running Bitterblossom and Spellstutter Sprite, I think you're not really trying to end the game so quickly anymore, so I fail to see why Tombstalker is a necessity for this deck -- you also don't need to hit double black since every card besides Jace and Clique are only single colored. If you are connecting each turn with a SoFI or a Batterskull, you have the opponent on a quick clock anyways.
The following list got 4th place in the most recent LCL tournament:
4º Alejandro Delgado- UWB Stoneforge Blossom
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Spellstutter Sprite
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Bitterblossom
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Mental Misstep
3 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
3 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
2 Jace, the mind sculptor
3 Ponder
SD:
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Manriki-Gusari
2 Nihil Spell bomb
3 Peacekeeper
2 Extirpate
2 Spell Pierce
2 Perish
I wouldn't necessarily copy this list card-for-card, but I think it provides a good starting-point for further development of the "Faeries" deck. For one thing, I would consider increasing the land count to 21/22 to reduce mulligans. The SB seems okay for a certain expected metagame, though I would consider mixing it up depending on what you'd plan on seeing -- Peacekeeper is fantastic though as a foil to aggro decks and sometimes Emrakul.
I am aware that going in this direction makes the deck more of a midrange/control deck rather than a "tempo" deck (no stifles, Dazes, or Wastelands), but given the current metagame I think this is a better utilization of Spellstutters and Bitterblossom. If I wanted to play the tempo game I'd rather run Team America.
@wcm8 : Perfect that you started this discussion, i also saw this deck and liked it.
A few weeks ago i played Ubr and realized the same things about lavamancer sometimes great and sometimes bad, but to get him when he is needed, you need between 3 and 4 so i decided to drop red and try add white, and then saw this list.
About the list, i think too that 1 or 2 lands could be added, perhaps instead of Ponder ?
Perhaps i prefer 3 Jaces. Perhaps somewhere in the 75 a Jitte...i'am not sure...
Ok, of all the decks i've seen in the last time this one seems like the most appealing to me, but there are some fundamental changes I would make.
- Cut one Equipment, with SFM we still have virtually 6.
- Add Land
- Add Aether Vial and a 4th Misstep. Fearies is not as fast as other Tempo Decks, mainly because a lot of the powerful plays of it lie in the 2-drop range. Adding 1-drops and Misstep will help get past the hardest turn of the game (2 if we are on the draw).
Anyways, a good time to start brewing.
I'm not sure why Aether vial would deserve the slot. We run only 10 (or less) creatures, and if you want to make them uncounterable you should just run something like Daze to protect your turn 2 drop (including Blossom). Flashing in a Sprite is cute, but it seems to be in 'danger of cool things'.
True, but I'd still give it a shot, we only play 4 removal spells, so having countermana up at every point is pretty mandatory.
I know its called Tempo Faeries, but the deck actually functions best if it can play some kind of MUC style, counter everything and drop a wincon only of you have a window. Now Aether vial broadens that window by a lot, putting pressure on the opponent while having countermana up is a situation everyone wants to be in.
I remember a list that ran Hymns recently...I just made the switch over to Hymn to Tourach in my list (cutting 2 Spell Snares and 2 Daze to get 4 in there) and it has been nothing short of awesome. I also play 4 Inquisitions, so the 1-2 punch can be brutal to any deck I can pull it off against (with the exception of Dredge which laughs at it, but if I have a MM/Daze in hand to protect those early plays against other decks it can be really great tempo disruption)
Anyone else play Hymns in their list?
I've been running this list and it seems ok. Could use some further testing though. sideboard is entirely fluid.
3 spellstutter sprite
4 force of will
4 mental misstep
3 daze
2 repeal
4 brainstorm
3 Jace, the mind sculptor
3 Tombstalker
4 bitterblossom
1 Jitte
1 Sword of fire and ice
3 stoneforge mystic
4 swords to plowshares
4 underground seas
3 tundra
1 scrubland
1 plains
1 swamp
1 island
3 flooded strand
4 marshflats
3 wasteland
I really like the stoneforge package alongside bitterblossom since you get a constant stream of evasive creatures for your equipment. I'm still playing the tombstalkers mostly cause I like having yet another path to victory but they could be taken out for another stoneforge and some more disruption. I've wanted to fit hymn or thoughtseize somewhere but haven't had time to test the best option.
Also I've had some promising results against stoneforge control decks. A turn two bitterblossom is extremely strong against them and repeal has been very useful in keeping the batterskull token off the field. UW decks with standstill seem to be more challenging than those with visions however.