Are you trying to sell me Jesus or your argument about Force of Will? It's becoming hard to tell the difference with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJones
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Are you trying to sell me Jesus or your argument about Force of Will? It's becoming hard to tell the difference with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJones
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJones
So much arrogance in that little post. If you expect anyone to take your seriously, try acting a little more humble. The perception of reality is all that really matters in the end.
So now you're a expert Legacy analyst with really bad analogies?Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJones
Unplayable as in 1100 man GP?
200 man 5ks every week?
8 different decks in top 8 in the GP, 8 different decks total from Orlando and Louisville 5ks? 8 different decks in top 8 of BoM5?
And now all of a sudden FoW takes no playskill, Then What does take skill Nacatl, Lackey, Hymn?
I didn't say in that post that I'm necessarily the one being right, instead I talk about a property that is true regardless of who is right, which is why I also don't give a damn about being mocked; because if I'm mocked and I'm wrong, I only get what I deserve, and if I'm right it doesn't matter to me if I get mocked or not. Many people can't understand a man to be able to reason this way, and as such search for alternate readings.
As a tip, if you give arguments different weight depending of the perceived arrogance in a speaker, you act as a pretty poor judge. Arrogance is a subjective trait that depends on prejudices and first impressions, and at worst it only signals the speaker's confidence in him or her being right. It's the arguments the ones that let you discern between a person that says "Black" because he only sees the world as Black or White, and a person that says "Black" because it happens to be Black.
Anyways, that blue needs to be nerfed is like IP6 and the international measure system. It has been known for decades that it's necessary, but the managers prefer to avoid the issue because it will inconvenience customers and won't react until it's way too late. There's plenty of precedent in how they managed the reserved list, necropotence, the fate of vintage, the affinity fiasco, and now the Jace fiasco.
Necropotence is black.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJones
Affinity is mostly artifacts. In fact, the broken cards are black and colorless.
A deck without Force of Will got first place in a recent GP.
I think you need to re-evaluate "reality". Suggesting that you don't care under the guise of "reality will show the truth!" is intellectually dishonest because you admit to being an open fool if reality isn't matching your views, while if reality is matching your views you are doing a poor job of showing it. So, cut the crap, be honest with yourself and us, and admit that you think you are right: the bearing of reality has little standing on what you actually think.
I think you are more dishonest by claiming that Force of Will isn't busted because the person that happened to win the GP chose to run Force of Will v.2 in its place, when practically everyone that made Top 32 ran both.
Would you also say that Reanimator wasn't busted if ANT had won GP: Madrid (it lost because it misfired)? That Trix wasn't the best extended deck by far because it lost the finals in its first big tournament debut? Can you even mention a single deck in legacy's history that has been banned and that wasn't solely about using FoW to protect your combo?
Force of Will is an elegantly designed, fantastically fair card. It only becomes unfair when your entire deck hinges on running out one specific card to force through a win early, and those decks need to be kept in check.
Brainstorm is clearly the unfair half of this equation. No other card lets you take free mulligans for a single mana; Serum Powder wishes it were this good.
Again, I don't advocate banning Bstorm at the moment, but if blue is too dominant for too long, the first target for the axe should be obvious.
People play Legacy, because they want to play with their favourite cards: Brainstorm, Force of Will, Goblin Lackey, Humility, Survival of the Fittest, Hymn to Tourach, Dark Ritual, Counterspell and many more. So banning them - Brainstorm, Force of Will, etc. - would hurt the format. However, I don't think that a card like Jace TMS or Mental Misstep is someone's favourite card, since they're new (= no sentimental attachments), limited (just look at MM) and dumb.
Trix wasn't even in the finals of its first big Extended tournament (GP Seattle). If you want to give examples, irrelevant as they might be for the discussion at hand (the problem with Trix was Necro and if you don't understand that, I'm not sure how to help you), at least use correct facts.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJones
As for decks without FoW being banned:
- Survival was banned at least as much because of GW Survival than anything concerning FoW. Actually, the GW and GBW versions were arguably better than the UG-version and Elf-Survival would probably have proven to be the actual best (that deck looked sick but was luckily not build until a few days before they banned SotF).
- Mystical Tutor was much more of a problem in ANT than in Reanimator imo. The latter deck was realistically hateable (though still unhealthy) while ANT would probably have pressed everything but CB blue out of the meta slowly but surely (not that we ever came close to that point). As you said yourself, ANT only didn't win because it misfired.
Brainstorm is like Vanguard's Squee. It lets you start with a ten card hand, but there are plenty of cards in all colors that allow decks to get the same advantage (Sylvan Library, Sensei's Divining Top, etc). However, outside of blue there are no 'free timewalks' that have no answers in the +10000 printed cards.
Brainstorm is powerful because there only existed two cards to keep it in check: Chalice of the Void and Chains of Mephistopheles. Now we also have Mental Misstep to add to that list. Mental Misstep will make Brainstorm more fair. People will not be able to rely on Brainstorm from now on, this is a significant change.
However, there are no maindeck answers against Force of Will, other than countermagic. And the only cards that kept free countermagic in check, which where Aether Vial and Goblin Lackey, got a huge hit with the printing of Mental Misstep. I've been saying this since three years now, look at the archives if you don't believe me. What has happened in GP: Providence is that Aether Vial and Goblin Lackey stopped being good against blue.
The deck that won GP Providence was designed to beat decks that were designed to fight Force of Will, not Mental Misstep. However, Mental Misstep is a fair card. Banning Mental Misstep would return to a previous broken format where Force of Will places 3-6 decks in every top 8 and forces the DCI to keep banning good cards like Survival of the Fittest or Brainstorm; banning Force of Will allows for a format where strategies and skill matters, and not just card availability and the color you play.
I think it's a mistake to ask for the banning of brainstorm just now that we got an answer against it.
Just because a card is good doesn't mean it's unfair.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJones
That's the thing: FoW is a supplement to support the combo. The combo itself is what wins you the game. FoW itself won't win you games.Quote:
Would you also say that Reanimator wasn't busted if ANT had won GP: Madrid (it lost because it misfired)? That Trix wasn't the best extended deck by far because it lost the finals in its first big tournament debut? Can you even mention a single deck in legacy's history that has been banned and that wasn't solely about using FoW to protect your combo?
That's because it's not a threat...Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJones
Oh fuck, I give up. Someone else can argue with the troll. Apparently he has shroud against arguments that try to target him.
Edit: Sorry, he has Hexproof because he believes in his own argument.
Which is called Hexproof now :PQuote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
Oh man, it's so sad when someone is wrong and then they start to throw around every smart sounding thing they can say in rapid succession, like sounding vaguely intelligent for 2 paragraphs will change the fact they are wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJones
I'm tired of listening to you spout off bullshit on these forums about banning Force of Will every time the card or the color blue is mentioned. To tell you the truth I miss the days when the Source was "elitist" because 10 people explaining this to you for the 100th time is just a waste of energy and 5 years ago they would have just banned you and been done with it...
First off, Force of Will is the reason most people play blue, so almost every Blue deck is going to have 4x Force of Will which might explain why it seems to be all over top 8's.
Second, blue isn't always a good choice historically for Legacy. Remember when Goblins first came out? You couldn't pay people to play Blue for a while. It comes and goes. Force of Will is a good card, but it's not broken by any means. In fact the more people play blue the worse it becomes, because there are plenty of decks that hose Blue and if the meta becomes too predictable a lot more of those decks start to show up.
Let's be real though. The real issue is not the Force of Will is broken, it's that you play shitty decks. Let's take a look...
Yeah I think I see why you might hate Force of Will... You play terrible decks that rely on key spells resolving, and when you get FOW'd you lose. Stop playing terrible decks or stop complaining, end of discussion. I've seen some of your posts before because every time this comes up I look at the threads you've been posting in to see what is wrong with your perception of MTG, every deck you play is fit for kitchen table at best. Stop being so pompous because no one agrees with you for a reason, that reason being you are incredibly wrong on pretty much every level. FOW is very fair, if it were banned you'd either have to double the size of the banned list or you'd have a lot more to complain about. You remind me of my friend's wife. She's been in 10 car accidents in 4 years and she's always talking about how everyone else is such a shitty driver, what she fails to understand is that she is the shitty driver, it's everyone else who is normal.Quote:
This is my current test list. Only goldfishing so far, but looks promising:
4 [U] Bayou
1 [TSP] Forest (1)
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ZEN] Verdant Catacombs
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [OD] Wild Mongrel
4 [PLC] Kavu Predator
4 [NE] Skyshroud Cutter
2 [VI] Quirion Ranger
3 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [ON] False Cure
3 [U] Berserk
4 [MM] Invigorate
4 [NE] Reverent Silence
3 [MR] Chalice of the Void
3 [MR] Spoils of the Vault
2 [TO] Strength of Lunacy
You mean TROLLshroud?Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
lolololol
Banning Brainstorm isnt the way to go, agreed.
Reasons that the card is restricted in Vintage are that the format itself has so many broken cards (even if those are singletons as well) that the ability to generate such an card quality and filtering through the deck is indeed very unbalanced in front of every other color (besides brown^^). Restricting was okay, if it was totally correct is arguable.
Which cards in Legacy are equal in terms of beeing broken that this needs to happen to Legacy? Moat, Counterbalance, Show&Tell, Stoneforge Mystic? Are you serious? I am happy that I play a format that doesnt has completely ridicolous cards and one-card-combos (as survival) that great cards like Brainstorm are completely fine, even if I must agree that the color pie isnt balanced in a way that would be more likeley.
The conclusion is obviously that the other colors need not just hosers, but more important more impressive cards to be more competetive and make them attractive to be played. But this WILL happen, believe it. Wizards announced a blue year that has become true (wow, at least they kept a promise...) in every kind of sense but so will other colors have their high-time, I am quite sure.
Does anyone remember Judgement? A main-theme of it was that the only gold/2color-cards were GW and in Torment they obviously printed a lot of powerful black cards and a cycle that benefits playing Black. There is no reason why this shouldnt happen in Innistrad as well and I am looking forward to some real bombs in the next sets that arent blue.
As far as I can speak for myself it would be fine for me if other colors would be more tempting but banning cards is hurting as fuck, especially if this is based upon irrational arguments and would hit cards that are literally fair from their own effect. Every card that someone complains about here IS fair but I do understand that players want cards to be printed that are amazingly powerful in other archetypes/strategies and colors besides Control/aggrocontrol.
Cards that I would see likeley are another playable rainbow land that is better than Tarnished Citadel, a incredibly powerful Vanilla-creature that cant be abused by blue decks, more uncounterable cards (Thrun is an awesome card btw, still underestimated.) and cards in general that push Aggro-decks heavily.
Story-technically it could be done easily to create a set where blue is suppressed and marginal in existence and I think that the latest point where this set will be released is in 2012, honest.
Till then I can just recommend to play MM's outside of blue and abuse cards like Top in more decks that are able to produce card quality also.
Again, Brainstorm is undercosted by about two mana. There really isn't a comparably flexible and proactive, undercosted card in any other color. Printing some is out of the question for Wizards. Divining Top and Sylvan Library, while powerful cards don't do at all what Brainstorm does, which is let you get a free mulligan on your hand for one mana. Any such comparison demonstrates a misunderstanding of what Brainstorm does. It's not a strictly digging spell like Top or Ponder, it's a pure filtering spell like Thirst for Knowledge or Compulsive Research, at least with shuffle effects (part of how fetchlands sort of broke the format in some ways; if not for fetchlands I would say that Brainstorm should never be even considered for a ban, but la, here we are).
you really cannot and should not play MM outside of blue. If you don't get your MM in your opening hand, it becomes rather useless FAST. you cannot pitch to force either so its really a bad topdeck card and a dead card altogether.Quote:
Originally Posted by I am the brainwasher
Quote:
Originally Posted by bracer028
This is so insanely wrong in every way possible.
What you do if you're playing an aggro deck, need Misstep and don't have two life left to give: OOPS YOU ALREADY LOST ANYWAY.
What you do if you're playing an aggro deck, draw Misstep, and don't see any targets all game: OOPS YOU ALREADY WON ANYWAY.
Seriously. If you're playing Zoo and your opponent has no one drops, just go fucking kill him then. This isn't too hard.
I'm not trying to bring the misstep debate into this thread and usually agree with what you post Bear but this doesn't make a lot of sense to me. The reason why misstep is so powerful is because of all the other cards that blue has to go with it ie force, brainstorm, daze other counterspells etc etc.Quote:
If you're playing Zoo and your opponent has no one drops, just go fucking kill him then. This isn't too hard.
If you are playing zoo and your opp has one drops you should just go kill them.