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I've also felt like better late game target for Green Sun's Zenith would be welcome.
Knight of the Reliquary seems to be the biggest problem when fighting wars of attrition, so what about a single Terravore as a trump zenith target?
Goyf doesn't always cut it, but I probably wouldn't go down to less than 3. He's still a good wall and super efficient.
Indeed, this is not a bad idea at all... i don't know if replacing a single tarmogoyf is the right place for terravore, but it sure may find a place as goyf#5... we run at least 9 fetches, so being a 4/4 should rarely be a problem. Fetchlands are also common cards, and wasteland too, so it'l be a good guy... I felt a little stupid when "all" i could fetch was a tarmogoyf at the upper end of the curve...
To be fair, GSZ will get you some mana-dude at least 50% of the time. From the limited testing I've done thus far even way more often. This deck is build around resolving Natural Order against most decks. Therefor 1 Goyf should be enough. I cut down on it. Muradin is absolutely right about Clique delivering most of the non-hydra beats.
Just played this deck to a 3-1 finish on the most recent Daily Event on Modo. I was running a list close to what Muradin posted except for -4 Force +4 Spell Pierce. My matchups were:
Round 1: UW Stoneblade - lost 1-2 (don't let this fool you. I think we have a fucking good matchup here, I just got manascrewed..)
Round 2: Ub Merfolk - won 2-0
Round 3: Zoo - won 2-1
Round 4: Hive Mind - won 2-1
Terravore is what I have been testing over the last week. It's been really strong I'm going to write up something later today about my recent changes to the decklist. I really like my new list and hoped I could show up with it and crush tournaments, but apparently others had similar ideas so it won't stay new and secret until I get to play again anyway. Expect a wall of text! haha
I love walls of text! ^^ Can't wait to read your testing results, will be very helpful.
Agree clique is the best beater by far, I began to play with 4, I'll stick with 4. I always want a t2 clique to mess things up! ^^
So right now, Jona, your counter package is 3 spell snare, 4 spell pierce, 4 mental misstep? I can see spell snare being a very cool option (the other is counterspell for me, fire/ice for the most of you, it seems.. meh, i don't like it that much), but in what sense spell pierce actually helped you more than force of will? Some games are won if you resolve a fast order, how does spell pierce help in that? (not to say that it doesn't counter llawan).
I'm not sold on the goyf thing. He's an eccellent beater, and the reason we have a positive Mu against merfolks (i.e. triple goyf attack! and some bolt here and then). Pushing too hard on terravore may open ourselves to grave hate, plus it's not synergistic with grim lavamancer. I'm waiting for Jona's considerations, however.
Having more Lavamancers maindeck is a fine way to keep the merfolk matchup positive. Lavamancer is way more brutal here, as it plays out basically like a mini-Visara, killing of all of their guys if it resolves.
I always had a hard time pressuring merfolk hard enough with tarmogoyf. Sure, its a viable option to win the matchup but most of the time I felt behind with them running Daze, Cursecatcher, Vial, Wasteland, Force of Will and Mental Misstep as their tempo tools, which is way more than we have. For it played out like I tried to keep LoA and Coralhelm Commander of the table with my counters/burn and grinded it out in the endgame when they draw their weak sauce Dazes and Aether Vials. For me it has hardly ever possible to be the agressor in the matchup, nearly impossible when I was on the draw.
Cutting Goyfs has hurt my Zoo matchup, but besides I feel rather comfortable with my decission so far.
Hi guys, after reading the comments and getting advice from you guys. I decided to test this list at our weekly tourney of about 14 people yesterday.
I did not have the Submerges for my SB and I was lacking 1 Surgical. Also lacked the 1-2 more Cliques for my main, so I substituted Jittes, Eternal Witness and Terastodon. This is the list I used to get 3rd place:
Lands:
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
2 Volcanic Island
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Dryad Arbor
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Taiga
Creatures:
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Terravore
1 Eternal Witness
1 Progenitus
2 Vendilion Clique
Spells:
4 Mental Misstep
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
1 Sylvan Library
2 Fire/Ice
2 Daze
SB:
2 Grim Lavamancer
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Spell Pierce
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Krosan Grip
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Scavenging Ooze
Yes yes, I know the Daze is debatable, but I really liked it in my games so far. Anyway, here's how the games went:
Match 1: Some sort of Extended Warriors Deck (2-0)
The guy I fought was new in the shop and brought an extended-type deck with a Nettle Sentinel and a Warrior that pumps other warriors. G1 and G2 went by really fast with a T3 and T4 NO for Progen.
Match 2: Hive Mind (2-1)
G1: I knew what he was playing and risked a hand with 2 Cliques as distruption. I don't think I should have kept a hand without FoW though. I was able to ramp to 3 mana, but I was on the draw and he got 3 mana and casted SnT. I played Clique in response. He FoWed, SnT resolved. I played Clique he plays Hive Mind, he doesn't pass priority, Pact of Summoner then Pact of negation. I only have 4 mana and on to G2.
SB: I go for the counter and beatdown plan, -4 NO, -1 Prog, -1 Terastodon, +3 REB, +1 Spell Pierce, +1 Surgical, I didn't have anything else to board, so +1 Grip.
G2: He mulls to six. I kept a hand with Clique, REB and Daze. I Cliqued him which he responds with a Brainstorm. I see SnT, FoW, Lands and another Brainstorm. I'm thinking that he maybe has 2 SnTs which is why he didn't hide it in the Brainstorm, but I go against my instincts and go for the SnT anyway.
A turn after, the board state is I have 3 mana and a Clique and Hierarch out and he has 3 Islands. In my hand, I have Terravore, 2 REBs and a Daze. I tap 3 for a 4/4 Terravore leaving 1 Volcanic open for REB. At this point I'm thinking that I shouldn't have casted the creature yet in case we go into a counter war.
He plays another land, taps 3 for SnT. I am regretting both decisions at this point, but I REB him which I know he has FoW for. Then, taps out to cast Brainstorm in response to my REB. THANK GOD. He FoWs the REB, I daze. For the next 2 turns, I swing for 7 and 7 for lethal.
G3: He mulls to 5, which is good news for me. I mull to 6, keeping a hand with Clique, REB and Surgical Extraction. He pretty much fails to get cantrips to dig for his missing combo piece. I Clique him, which he FoWs and pitched another FoW. He keeps playing lands and nothing else. I was able to beat him down with an Exalted Goyf to win.
Match 3: Zoo w/o KoTR (2-1)
G1: He drops Lavamancer then I was beaten silly with a Kird Ape. Failed to find bolts, had NO in my hand did not have a green creature to Sac, and was stuck at 3 lands.
SB: -4 FoW, -1 Daze, +1 Ooze, +2 Jitte, +2 Lavamancer
G2: I ramp with Hierarch T1. He plays Loam Lion. He gets mana screwed with only 1 land in play. A quick NO makes him scoop.
G3: This game goes really long. He goes Loam Lion or Kird Ape, I ramp with GSZ. He plays Goyf as a 0/1. I do the same. He then used Chain lightning on my arbor. Things get hazy from here, but basically I dropped Ooze, ate all creatures. Got as big as 7/7 with him failing to draw PtE. I drop sylvan library, we hear the last 5 turns call. I eat my life total to get a Lavamancer, and 2 Goyfs out. He shakes my hand.
Match 4: G/W Maverick (1-2)
If I won this match, I would have gotten 1st, but I was against a top 10 ranked eternal player in our country. You could literally see my hand shaking when I was playing.
G1: He successfully delays my ramping with some removal. Then again, I kind of made it obvious I had the NO in my hand when I FoWed his StP on my Hierarch. He GSZ into Teeg. Then KotR beats my face in.
SB: -4 FoW, -2 Daze, -2 Clique, +2 Jitte, +2 Lavamancer, +1 Surgical, +1 Grudge, +1 Grip, +1 Ooze
I think my nerves got to me at this point. I forgot about the SBing tips against Maverick which was to counter and resolve NO. Should have kept the counters, taken out the Goyfs and brought in Spell pierce. DON'T OUT AGGRO AN AGGRO DECK. GRRR.
G2: I had the advantage with a Exalted 3/4 goyf, then he Wastelands one of my lands, then I debate whether to surgical the wasteland so I can NO later on safely. I again go against my instincts, and he has another wasteland. I then use surgical on the wasteland and remove only 1 more waste in his deck, I see a KoTR in his hand and a Phyrexian Metamorph. Lovely.
It gets to a point where he has Scryb, KotR, and another creature I'm forgetting. I see he's at 10 life. I have a bolt in hand. I'm at around 15 life with 4 lands, I think. I draw an eternal witness. Swing with Exalted Goyf, he doesn't block, strangely. He casts another KotR, then I bolt him on his EOT. On my turn, I cast Witness, recur bolt ftw.
G3: Again he is able to GSZ teeg. He gets superior board control and I shake his hand.
Notes:
- Eternal Witness had its shining moment when Bolt, Witness, Bolt wins you the game, but I have to agree that she is a dead card in your hand most of the time.
- I like the Terravore, there were several times in the Maverick matchup where I could have dropped him and matched the opponent's KotR. He gets big regardless of whether the opponent has KotR or not, fetches are enough.
- I really don't like Terastodon, there hasn't ever been an instance where I wished for him instead of Progenitus.
- Vendilion Cliques are amazing. PERIOD.
- Is submerge really needed? I feel like Beast Within could be used as a more "permanent" removal of a big creature we can't handle.
Thanks for reading.
Solthos; I understand you were short some cards for the event (clique, extraction), but next time you play the deck you should definitely have more blue cards in your maindeck. You have right now 18 blue cards main (not counting progenitus), which is pretty low for a deck without painters servant. I'd suggest finding a third clique (cuz it's the nuts), and then cutting a bolt for a fire/ice. Except for wild nacatl, fire/ice deals with every threat that bolt does, in addition to being a blue card for force, and just demolishing GSZ based decks by killing two mana dorks.
Why isn't Vexing Shusher considered as a viable zenith target? He dies too easy? Tarmogoyf way better ofc but he can win counter wars. Just wanted your opinion.
Oops, one error on my decklist. I had one Birds of Paradise and 3 Hierarchs.
3 bolts and 3 Fire/ Ice? I might do that. I thought the "magic number" for blue cards in a deck with a set of FoWs was 18? Although, I guess it would be better to keep my blue count up. Thanks!Quote:
You have right now 18 blue cards main (not counting progenitus), which is pretty low for a deck without painters servant. I'd suggest finding a third clique (cuz it's the nuts), and then cutting a bolt for a fire/ice. Except for wild nacatl, fire/ice deals with every threat that bolt does, in addition to being a blue card for force, and just demolishing GSZ based decks by killing two mana dorks.
IMO, Shusher eats up too much mana and the only spell that you really need to protect is NO. I think the deck has enough counters to back that up. Without NO in you hand, Shusher doesn't really help much.Quote:
Why isn't Vexing Shusher considered as a viable zenith target? He dies too easy? Tarmogoyf way better ofc but he can win counter wars. Just wanted your opinion.
Fire/Ice loses games Lightning Bolt doesn't vs Zoo's 2/3 asses, but Fire/Ice and Lightning Bolt aside, have people tried playing the Grove of the Burnwillows and Punishing Fires combo in this deck? It seems to do a really good job of beating Tribal, which is amongst this deck's more difficult match ups.
And as far as Vexing Shuhser, you can try Xantid Swarm as well.
You're having problems against tribal? I found these matchups to be really easy. Grove Of The Burnwillows is also weak to Wasteland. I found the combo to be clunky and I prefer Fire // Ice for several reasons (mostly versatility). Punishing Fire is quite good against Jace and Stoneforge Mystic though.
As for Vexing Shusher; I don't think we need it. I board out Zenith against decks with countermagic anyway.
The problem with Grove of the Burnwillows and Punishing Fire is that the combo isn't consistent enough for the deck.
It seems consistent enough to me, one is a functional Taiga and the other is a functional removal spell by themselves, and with 8 cantrips they come together nicelyQuote:
Originally Posted by Deady
@Jona, I have consistent problems with Merfolk and Goblins in the sense they make it hard as hell to resolve NO.
In my testing Punishing Fire didn't work. The parts aren't too strong on their own. I don't want to run too many Groves plus I still want to run at least one Taiga. There isn't really more room for more than two Groves then. Punishing Fire is okay on its own; at least it gets around Mental Misstep against Stoneforge Mystic.
Against Merfolk you should board out Natural Order. Against Goblins you can resolve it much more easily, so I tend to keep it in. Also, this deck is generally super stong against Goblins, at least with Fire // Ice. I talked with Gobo_Lord about the matchup a few weeks ago and he said it's almost impossible for him to beat one of my more mediocre draws. If there's a lot of Goblins in your meta there's basically no way you can play this deck without Fire // Ice. It's golden in that matchup. Tarmogoyf is strong there too. Don't get blown out by Goblin Sharpshooter or Gempalm Incinerator though, these two can sometimes be tough. You have lots of ways to slow them down and you should use them. Don't hesitate using Force Of Will for turn one Ęther Vial or Goblin Lackey, they're taking a massive hit if you do so since your clock is nothing to scoff at as well.
In my testing Punishing Fire didn't work. The parts aren't too strong on their own. I don't want to run too many Groves plus I still want to run at least one Taiga. There isn't really more room for more than two Groves then. Punishing Fire is okay on its own; at least it gets around Mental Misstep against Stoneforge Mystic.
Against Merfolk you should board out Natural Order. Against Goblins you can resolve it much more easily, so I tend to keep it in. Also, this deck is generally super stong against Goblins, at least with Fire // Ice. I talked with Gobo_Lord about the matchup a few weeks ago and he said it's almost impossible for him to beat one of my more mediocre draws. If there's a lot of Goblins in your meta there's basically no way you can play this deck without Fire // Ice. It's golden in that matchup. Tarmogoyf is strong there too. Don't get blown out by Goblin Sharpshooter or Gempalm Incinerator though, these two can sometimes be tough. You have lots of ways to slow them down and you should use them. Don't hesitate using Force Of Will for turn one Ęther Vial or Goblin Lackey, they're taking a massive hit if you do so since your clock is nothing to scoff at as well.
So far I've really disliked cutting Tarmogoyf(s) and I think it's a bad idea unless you're replacing Tarmogoyf with a Stoneforge Mystic and Batterskull package for an equivalent 2 drop. I think the moment you cut Tarmogoyf and/or Stoneforge Mystic you turn your deck into a worse version of NO SHO with no aggro-control or control plan.
I tested Terravore for some games now and found him pretty good in most matchups. This guy doesn't get jump blocked, beats Knight of the Reliquary every day and last but not least is my favorite creature in magic. I might be biased though.
I tested Terravore for a few weaks now, and it's been amazing. It's much better than Tarmogoyf and even when you board in Grim Lavamancer it's often not too hard to keep him at least at 4/4. Also, like Muradin said, Terravore completely trumps Knight Of The Reliquary, which has been one of the deck's "problems" so far. It makes Relic Of Progenitus slightly better against us, but people can't bring ten pieces of hate for different aspects of NO RUG, so that's kind of a nonissue.
It kinda sucks that others started testing it as well though; now I have to come up with even more new tech before GP Amsterdam. Anyway, I wrote an article about my recent changes to my list but I'm not sure when and where it'll be published. Probably I'm just going to post it on The Source, but who knows. I'll let you guys know anyway. There's also some general Legacy metagame discussion in it, so it might actually be interesting.
Terravore is a turn slower than Goyf (3 mana) and requires GG instead of G...