What I meant by Gigapede is that he allows you to DDD over and over and over again, so if they do crack their Crypt/Relic they don't flat out kill you.
This deck is really squishy to hate though. Freaking t1 Relic kills it.
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What I meant by Gigapede is that he allows you to DDD over and over and over again, so if they do crack their Crypt/Relic they don't flat out kill you.
This deck is really squishy to hate though. Freaking t1 Relic kills it.
Thats wrong.Quote:
This deck is really squishy to hate though. Freaking t1 Relic kills it.
Discard a Phantasmagorian. Or a dredger and in response of tapping relic, you can cycle.
Then SB it, that's not worth MDing and losing the speed of baubles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanti
I will test it but I definately think you are underestimating Gigapede. The guy makes sure Phantasma is always in the gy, which is huge to this deck. He stacks Nether Shadow. He's a body to go on top of Nether Shadow.
I run 12 cantrips already but I'm trying to beat blue. Baubles get Dazed and even Forced.
Dude, I've been testing with and without Gigapede for awhile, there's no over or underestimation going on it's just not as good as you wish it were every time you play it. Every Bauble Forced and Dazed is card and tempo advantage, plus a Therapy or Returns that isn't countered a turn later.
You don't cut Time Walk for Gigapede man.
Hey folks, i played Ichorid for a long time in legacy, and your manaless build seem interesting to mee. yesterday i looked for the actual bazaar of baghdad prizes at mcm and looked in some vintage forums for manaless dredge builds. I found some interesting lists which play dryad arbor main as a four off with sideboard hate against lotv and stuff. Are the Legacy lists too tight right now that they can't addapt these tech? You may play Arbor main and leave Sb-slots for more important things... just a question.
It's not a Time Walk at all.
My opponent is on the play and drops an Island.
I draw and discard a dredger.
He untaps, drops a land, passes again
I draw my dredger, back up to 8 cards, and play a Bauble which gets Dazed. I am now at 7 cards and will be doing nothing for the remainder of the turn, and if I didn't hit another Dredger nothing my next turn either. In other words you have gained no tempo. At all.
And it is true Kiwi. Unless you have Phanta or Street Wraith (8 of 60 cards) you die to a t1 relic ;/.
My biggest problem with Manaless Dredge is battle Tha Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, its game for my opponent
Not necessarily. Side in Angel of Despair, then dredge until you can bring in 3 ichords/nether shadows in one upkeep. Or, if you can manage to Therapy an ichorid/shadow/narcomoeba the turn it comes into play, and have enough Bridges in your yard, you can then sac the tokens you create to Return the Angel. Tabernacle is a beast play, but it's definitely not an autoloss for this deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by mooN_MTG
Ofc.Quote:
And it is true Kiwi. Unless you have Phanta or Street Wraith (8 of 60 cards) you die to a t1 relic ;/.
Played today in Iserlohn germany and played against tabernacle. No problem...Quote:
My biggest problem with Manaless Dredge is battle Tha Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, its game for my opponent
Ichorid + Nether shadow + bloodghast = win
They are coming back every upkeep, except of bloodghast, but this isnt a problem.
Tokens arent needed. You can easily win this game with Sphinx of lost truths dredging to FKZ.
K1w1
EDIT:
Btw played vs this Ooze and i have to say, no problem AFTER turn 2-3.
You have a 70,59% chance to have either Phanta or Wraith in your "opening 8" against a 39,95% chance your opponent has to draw Relic in his opening 7.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanti
At least probability favor us.
Actually, if you play Baubles or Gitaxian Probe those will also let you play through Relic's tap ability, making the odds in those lists more like 90%+.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grillo
Dude, playing Baubles and Probe does NOT let you play around Relic. Think about it for one second.
You are on the draw. They play a t1 relic. Bauble and Probe do nothing against that if you don't have Phantasma already.
So you discard and can't cast Bauble or Probe, and they activate Relic. Game over.
Bauble and Probe just speed up the deck by a lot. Probe has the extra benefit of making Cabal Therapy extra strong. Urzas Bauble kinda helps Therapy too.
You're misplaying this deck from what you've described, you don't just run Baubles into counter spells regardless of your grave yard - I play them on T3 and T4 more than on any other turn -Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanti
At t3 to t4 it still really isn't a time walk. It is nice CA if they cast Force, but its a 1 for 1 in every other case.
Yes though I still play baubles. Urza's Bauble freaking rocks. But they are not the most amazing part of this deck.
What are you guys playing in your sbs btw? Here is my updated one
x4 Leyline of the Void
x4 Bloodghast
x3 Dakmor Salvage
x1 Blightsteel Colussus
x2 Elesh Norn
x1 Angel of Despair
Other than Spell Pierce, which I haven't seen played since Mental Misstep, every card that counters a Bauble sets the opponent back a card or a land drop. I don't know how you are defining a Time Walk, but disregarding board position, Dredging more cards in a deck that's relegated to its draw step for Dredging is about as good as it gets. These cards are all pretty crucial to racing the middling Combo decks like Hive Mind, High Tide and Painter Stone, so I'd say they're really a lot more important than you seem to think especially when you compare them to Gigapede of all things.
This deck needs speed desperately in certain match ups, you can't rely on inevitability vs. strategic superiority - which a lot of decks have on us. I mean seriously, you wont even beat Elves consistently without draw.
They play T1 Relic on the play. You discard a do-nothing card (in cleanup). They have to tap the Relic on their turn or on our second turn (because they don't get priority during cleanup). Second turn, you cycle Gitaxian Probe, then discard a dredger EOT. They can't use the tap ability to exile the dredger.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kanti
They play T1 Relic on the play. T1 you play a Bauble. T2 You discard a card. At the beginning of their T3, they go to tap the dredger out of existence and you respond by sacrificing the bauble and exiling it.
They play T1 Relic on the play. T1 you play and activate Bauble. You skip your discard for the turn (too few cards in hand). T2 you discard 2 cards, one of which is a dredger.
-snip-
AJ just explained what I wanted to say as well.
So as an overview:
Gitaxian Probe, Baubles, Street Wraith do work pretty well, the two former only if they resolve of course.
Taz theoretically works as well, but the fact that he sets you back to 5 cards is a huge letdown if they decide to just sac the relic next turn.
I played Nicholas Rausch's list (-1 Iona, +1 Sphinx of the Lost Truth) at Jupiter Games yesterday and went 5-2 for 11th. Didn't sideboard anything all day. I was 5-1 after 6 rounds, but had to play the final round because I was paired down. Lost to burn because I overextended into a relic of progenitus. The deck was real smooth and resilient through relic and crypt all day. Lost to Burn and Patterns combo, beat Merfolk, NO RUG, Team Italia, Sneak Attack, and Non-LED Dradge.
-Chris-
Explain this one again. Coudn't you only discard after drawing for the turn, discarding on your cleanup, then they can tap their Relic on their turn to remove the card? I'm not getting it.
Here yeah, Bauble is a badass.
This also works though they can sac the Relic to set you back a little.