I think the best is if you look at some of the last pages...
The topic of playing Bob has been brought up on page 3 and was then discussed intensively.
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I think the best is if you look at some of the last pages...
The topic of playing Bob has been brought up on page 3 and was then discussed intensively.
I was wondering, what about playing more Oozes? I don't play the deck often, but you're running all non-RFG removal (Innocent Blood, Demise, Deathmark, Edict, Damnation, Deed, etc.), so why not suck up all the dead creatures?
I was going to say something else, but I totally forgot.
-Matt
Ok i built my own BUG Control-Deck and was toying around with it on Cockatrice, the list is:
23 lands (1 Sunken Ruins, 4 Wastelands)
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce
3 Ghastly Demise
1 Go for the Throat
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Pernicious Deed
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Inquisition
Sideboard:
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Extirpate
3 Surgical Extracion
2 Krosan Grip
2 Duress
4 Perish
And it is a good deck - no doubt - but how the hell do you beat UR Delver or Burn?^^
In thinking about Ooze a little more, if you run multiple copies of him this will in some way effect the manabase, as you'll need more green sources. Does the deck really want to stretch for a 3rd non-splash color?
The green factor of Ooze is true! However 1-2 times per turn should be fine to gain value or hate on snapcaster, dredge, reanimator, Goyf, Knight,..
Not beeing able to tutor ooze or have a super effecient wall/attacker when needed is more of a concern for me.
Interesting Approach Jimmy. Cutting Discard/countermagic for a proactive "confidant proactive" gameplan sounds reasonable.
My questions concerning sideboad?
Why do you run Krosan Grip when having deed? Meta choice?
4 Perish seems a lot to run along deed..
What I am missing in the SB (considering your MD) is what is essential to win versus Burn decks (spell pierce, spell snare & hymn to tourach) ... along an early goyf to end the game quickly of course.
Deed doesn't kill Batterskull, Grip does.
I agree 4 Perish seems super hateful, Jimmy. I'd say 2-3 is enough, especially if you're running Snappy.
-Matt
Jimmy? You comment on my decklist - no Jimmies^^
Krosan Grip is just a more flexible Deed in order to deal with more artefacts, 4 perish seem to be needed with this Maverick-Madness going on.
Ive been playing this list on cockatrice ALOT the last few days and I had an medicore experience.
I was winning versus Bant, Rock, Deadguy, Stoneblade
I was winning mostly versus Maverick and RUG Tempo, Goblins, Zoo
I was hardly winning versus Show and Tell Decks (mostly due to BAD draws)
I was never able to steal a match versus UR Burn or MonoR Burn
So yeah, Im pretty open to all of your advices and stuff. So please, is Confidant the wrong way? As my freshly bought pool is pretty big, as my budget is, you can propose all kinds of changes to it. Only thing I would like to play is Goyf and Jace and maybe Snapcaster.
All the other Aggro-Control Decks are just swept out by the enourmos card-advantage of this deck, the Aggro-Decks are just getting smashed by 5 Removal into 4 Snapcaster paired with Goyfs, but Im never fast enough with Goyf to slash a Burnmage, are your MUs better?
Even though Confidant is a great card Im not too sure if its the right card - I mean all of you guys are achieving great results I heard and Im just playing fine... I dont think its due to me, cause im a decent player normally.
So is the way to go Deedstill? Or Team America? Has there been any recent succesful list?
Thanks
I think a combination of Virtue's Ruin and Perish are warranted. The White creature are now as much annoying as the Green creatures. Being able to kill Mom, SFM, Knights, Pridemage, and the possible Mindcensor seems much better than killing the support staff (OoZe, Hierarch, Goyf).
Thrun is the special case however.
Knight of the Reliquary and Qasali Pridemage are great incentives to run Virture's Ruin instead of Perish!
This might be more cute than good:
Intuition piles:
1)
Academy Ruins
Life from the Loam
EE
2)
Snapcaster Mage
Unearth
<Instant/Sorcery>
EE doesnt seem bad, but weŽd need a fourth color (!) in order to get rid of damn permanents, BUG Control is hardly able to kill things like Jace and Elspeth.
We could play Malestrom Pulse in order to smash this planeswalkers, but EE doesnt seem bad either. What looks bad is the 4th color which might be hardly manageable. You dont really need EE when having Deed, and there are rarely planeswalker <cc4. The only relevant one I can think of is Liliana so I dont know.
Im still not sure about Confidant, its such a great CA machine, which often catches the swords instead of our mr. Tarmogoyf. I think Ill just have to test more than I did.
2)
Snapcaster Mage
Unearth
Snapcaster Mage
Fixed it for ya
The main difference in what you're hitting with Perish vs. Virtue's Ruin is Mother of Runes + Mindcensor vs. Noble Hierarch + Thrun. One is taking out mana development and Thrun, the other is manipulation and protection. Also works if you're running mostly green stuff yourself.
-Matt
I agree here. People are going to push a little towards white, which is already the (more) threatening part of Maverick, but especially because they want to try out Thalia. I'm thinking about playing BUG next weekend, but I want to see what happens tomorrow first.Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
Tomorrow? Whats tomorrow? (sorry if I missed anything)
What list would you take?
Tempo?
ConfidantBUG?
DeedBUG?
Or something different?
I finally found a Confidant-list that brought me some decent results on Cockatrice, but I got another question.
Why is no1 here playing any SylvanLibrary or DiviningTops?
Wouldnt they be good? Especially with Bob.
Greetings
EDIT:Okay heres the list I got lucky with :
21 Lands
4 Goyf
4 Snappy
4 Bob
4 Force
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
3 Ghastly Demise
1 Go for the Throat
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Unearth
3 Jace
//SIDE
2 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Extirpate
1 Krosan Grip
1 Nature's Grip
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Life from the Loam
2 Virtue's Ruin
What do you guys think?
EDIT2: Even with this list I tend to lose... Im getting pissed already - Is Confidant too bad?
I still think the best list for TA(control version) is with 4goyf 4snap 24 land. Its the most consistent and u get to play like 3Jace and a liliana. Backed up with removal/discard/counters its really solid against most decks except Imperial Painter/burn.
It is always difficult to take a new list or a list someone else was successful and expect to have an edge over the field... If that would be possible a deck would break a format...Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipp802
When you have a deck you need to know exactly what your gameplan is and what the optimal decision is in a given situation. Trust me it does make a big difference if you have a lot of experience or not. (i.e. I feel I have an edge over the random goblins I face, but I have a buddy playing goblins since 5 years and he has a small edge over me).
So looking at your list your primary gameplan is Confidant. You try to land a Confidant as early as possible and defend him with Daze, Spell Pierce and Force of Will. If that works you will likely win. The problem is that this gameplan is fragile:
- If you do not draw a confidant you are in bad shape to implement the alternative "traditional BUG" gameplan, because you do not run enough lands for your curve, Daze is antisynergetic with Snapcaster/Jace and you are lacking the early game interaction of Pointed Discard and Spell Snare to disrupt the opponent until you can take over.
-Even if you do draw confidant the gamplan is easy to discrupt. There is so much removal, spell snare and discard in legacy that your decend 2 land hand + confidant can become pretty terrible. Concerning the defense of your confidant, Spell Pierce needs a mana open, so is probably not the optimal choice to, so you are left with Daze and Force of Will which are good options because you need to tap out with confidant. Other confidant lists I saw run Inquisition to protect confidant, which is a very good turn 1 play (btw... you do not have a turn 1 play).
Another easy way to disrupt your gameplan is to have a wasteland...
So the first things I would change sticking to the confidant plan is:
- Replace spell pierce with Snare (pierce is not good defending confidant and snare much stronger overall)
- Replace 4 hymn with 4 pointed discard. -> you try to win by being ahead on board + cards (always drawing into answers with confidant while starting to develop your snapcaster/Jace) -> hymn does not support that plan in an optimal way.
..also gives you a nicec curce since hands with hymns, confidants, goyfs can be really slow.
- Decrease the number "late game bombs" with more consitency in the form of lands and/or ponder: your late game bombs are 3 jace, 4 snapcster and 2 unearth... Unearth is the nuts versus Bolt decks but weak to swords decks... Many people run only 2 jace because it is not synergistic with daze and hurts the confidant curve.
Also the goyfs will very often sit in your hand for a while...
Since this is all "fragile" and complicated to me I totally agree to rancor
Imperial Painter is favorable for us I think. Treat it like any other combo deck except for it can be disrupted with creature removal as well... needs 4 extirpate effects and an early goyf to get the beats going...They side in ugly Blood Moons, but loose speed.Quote:
Originally Posted by rancOr_
Concerning Top and Sylvan Library:
1 random SD.top seems ok (never tried it TBH), however it is very manaintensive and most BUG lists are discard based, which means often tapping out earyl. Having 8 Discard spells and 4 Snapcaster (as mana people do), you are pretty busy in your early turns doing that.
Sylvan Library is obviously the nuts. However so far I havent been able to fit it in, because I need the slots MD/SB versus bad matchups, which are usually the matchups where Library is horrible!
1) If BUG control needs to achieve something it is not falling behind. Discard, Snare, Removal seems to be more important in the early turns and wasting a turn to setup library hurts in many matchups.
2)you can often not easily trade life for cards like an aggressive deck can...
3)it is antisynergistic with deed (which I run 2 maindeck atm)
Maybe 1-2 in the sideboard to bring something versus UW is not a bad idea.
I personally believe the control variant (the one that runs 24 lands and no Hymn, no Daze) is better than the aggro-control variant (probably a low cc version with Dark Confidant?),..), because control is intrinsically stronger and the only thing that keeps control in check is that it's too slow, which is certainly not the case anymore with SCM.
// 24
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Bayou
// 4
4 Brainstorm
// 18
4 Ghastly Demise
2 Smother
1 Go for the Throat
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
// 14
4 Pernicious Deed
4 Jace the Mind Sculptor
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Life from the Loam
1 Fact or Fiction
With 24 lands, 4 JTMS > 4 SCM, the same applies to Tarmogoyf.
I prefer FoF to Intuition in that single slot, but it actually doesn't matter. With Intuition you probably want to change -1 Mishra's Factory, +1 Academy Ruins. However, that slot should definitely be filled with a CA-source.
1x LftL is an auto-include.
The disadvantage going your route iron buddha is that you loose a lot against the decks where discard/hymn (& goyf) are really strong.
Control being intrinsically stronger is an interesting claim which is not true I think. IMO it is the strength of blue decks unning SFM or Goyf to be flexible in what they are doing - (i.e.: also beeing a bit aggro).
Anyway what you see as control is BOARD control + counterspells. Black discard is also "control", but much stronger versus opposing combo or control while still beeing decent versus aggro. Whereas removal is dead versus combo and often bad versus control.
Classic creatureless control is not very popular right now. The most controllish decks are those with SFM, SCM, Dark Confidant, Tarmogoyf, Clique: That means that board control is quite important in the control matchup. Removal is not as bad in the control-matchup as it used to be.
In regards to fighting control/combo I don't quite see a difference between blue counterspells and black discard.
The problem with Thoughtseize is the life-loss. While this is mostly irrelevant for combo / aggro decks, it's an extreme disadvantage for the control-player.
The third or even the fourth Spell Snare can easily come in to strengthen the control/combo matchup.
What's the benefit of being a bit aggro?
The reason why I think control is naturally favored, is because control automatically makes use of the resource life.