Re: [Deck] W/x Parfait (Tax/Rack Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
(nameless one)
I am in the process of updating the primer. Any suggestions are welcome.
Ya I have a suggestion. Play the real TaxRack deck.
4 Scroll Rack
4 Land Tax
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Mox Diamond
14 Plains
4 Tithe
4 Grindstone
4 Painter's Servant
3 Rest in Peace
3 Circle of Protection: Red
4 Celestial Purge
4 Argivian Find
4 Abolish
SB: 4 Oblivion Ring
SB: 4 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Absolute Law
SB: 1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 Warmth
SB: 2 Refraction Trap
Have fun.
Explanations:
You play Painter's Servant instead of any other jank because you can stay on a 1-3 curve. At 3 mana being your killing point. Maindeck CoP: Red because it nails Jund, Goblins, Burn strategies.. Red cards. ( Everything becomes Red under Painter FYI ). Celestial Purge because it stops.. Red cards and even Black cards!
The engine is self explanatory. You need x4 Tax, Rack, Tutor and Mox Diamond. Tithe is x4. Play it. Maindeck x3 Rest In Peace means we can beat Dredge Game 1, and allow us to win with Painter's Servant while they are playing Elfball with Emralku, or Emralku decks period. (Show and Tell? Sure we'll play Painter combo). Argivian Find means we can beat Control decks that FoW Tax or something. Abolish is x4.
SB?
O.Ring for Show and Tell/Decks that you feel comfortable bringing a 3CMC enchantment against
Path to Exile for Elf or Zoo decks.
Rest In Peace to stomp down Dredge and Deathrite Shaman and Snapcaster Mage some more
Absolute Law to make sure Painter's Servant can stay on the Battlefield.
Another CoP:Red because of Red decks.
A Warmth to tutor up against Burn decks
Refraction Trap for RUG Delver
Pros: You can win mostly any matchup with some practice and skill, some luck helps too.
Cons: You lose if you don't Painter's Servant combo them 2 games out of 3. (Not counting niche scenarios like for example: you beat them down with Painter's Servant, they kill themselves with Ad Nauseam, they die to Dark Confidant. )
Re: [Deck] W/x Parfait (Tax/Rack Control)
Quote:
Pros: You can win mostly any matchup with some practice and skill
How do you beat storm combo? How do you protect painter's servant from getting killed?
Re: [Deck] W/x Parfait (Tax/Rack Control)
Long time usually lurker, starting to post, English not as first lenguaje, you know the drill. I had been playing Mighty Quinn in the past as I only a few cards away from this deck I was wondering if it still could be viable in nowadays meta, full of BGx tempo/control/whatever with maindeck Decays and combo starting to come back, as discussion about this deck seems to be dried quite a bit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shax
Pros: You can win mostly any matchup with some practice and skill, some luck helps too.
And, pardon if it sounds rude, no opponent in front of you. Firstly, Imperial Painter has blasts and moons, UR Painter has sorted counters and M. Quinn chants into the combo but you have zero ways to protect one of the most fragile creatures as it dies to almost everything: StP, Bolt, Decay, Dismember, Deed, instant Terminus, any artifact hate, Countertop, any hard counter... and with no other relevant targets in your deck your oppenent will be stocking on those. In second games if somehow it gets extracted, even if RIP and Argivian helps againt, its probably gg as you have literally no other wincons apart from Grindsotne standalone mill. Which will be not enough because, secondly, you have no reliable removal or disruption: you will be assembling Tax-Rack engine into card advantage into maybe a painter win or maybe useless cards and redundant pieces while your opponent will be advancing their game plan: combo will outrun you, fast aggro and tempo will probably also outrun you, control and midrange will stock into disruption. This is because, thirdly, while some cards could steal games on their one like CoP:Red againts burn or RIP against dredge, half of your deck is dead most of the time: Argivian is a nombo with RIP, Abolish being without targets, Celestial Purge and CiP:Red being off color without an active Painter, RIP being just dead and Land Tax being played around.
Re: [Deck] W/x Parfait (Tax/Rack Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shax
Ya I have a suggestion. Play the real TaxRack deck.
4 Scroll Rack
4 Land Tax
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Mox Diamond
14 Plains
4 Tithe
4 Grindstone
4 Painter's Servant
3 Rest in Peace
3 Circle of Protection: Red
4 Celestial Purge
4 Argivian Find
4 Abolish
SB: 4 Oblivion Ring
SB: 4 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Absolute Law
SB: 1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 Warmth
SB: 2 Refraction Trap
In a Storm-heavy meta, would you ever consider [cards]Silence[/card] or Abeyance in the place of the Refraction traps and the Warmth?
Re: [Deck] W/x Parfait (Tax/Rack Control)
Sorry got the delay with the primer. I've been busy with holidays so playtesting has been limited.
As for the Painter/Stone kill, I find that whenever people see Painter's Servant, it gets killed. It's the only creature you're running and unless your opponent is stupid or out of answers, it will not survive. Also, Emrakul exists.
Why not run Helm of Obedience? You're already running Rest in Piece. Against aggro; Humility, StP, Terminus.
Yes, Humility and Helm costs four. This is why I am running City of Traitors (since Mox option is limited in Legacy).
Against storm, I would usually side in Trinisphere and to some extent Aura of Silence. Aura of Silence slows their mana Mox and Trinisphere explains itself.
Also, Trinisphere is great against deck that can run with less than three mana.
So far, what I have on the primer is history and what to considered for the Vintage meta back in 2000 to Legacy now.
PS. A "combo" deck will not be an established list if it can't win on turn one/two or has a reliable back up plan.
Re: [Deck] W/x Parfait (Tax/Rack Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
(nameless one)
Sorry got the delay with the primer. I've been busy with holidays so playtesting has been limited.
As for the Painter/Stone kill, I find that whenever people see Painter's Servant, it gets killed. It's the only creature you're running and unless your opponent is stupid or out of answers, it will not survive. Also, Emrakul exists.
Why not run Helm of Obedience? You're already running Rest in Piece. Against aggro; Humility, StP, Terminus.
Yes, Humility and Helm costs four. This is why I am running City of Traitors (since Mox option is limited in Legacy).
Against storm, I would usually side in Trinisphere and to some extent Aura of Silence. Aura of Silence slows their mana Mox and Trinisphere explains itself.
Also, Trinisphere is great against deck that can run with less than three mana.
So far, what I have on the primer is history and what to considered for the Vintage meta back in 2000 to Legacy now.
PS. A "combo" deck will not be an established list if it can't win on turn one/two or has a reliable back up plan.
Let's answer some of these shall we?
Why not run Helm? Painter's Servant combo plus Rest in Peace accomplishes the same goal but cheaper on a turn by turn basis. I can atleast have my combo out just like you can turn 1/2.
I'm trying to play Magic, if you want to play your City of Traitors go for it. I'd watch out for Wastelands and potential landscrew it gives you since it sac's itself. Also it's a non-basic, so things that thrive on non-basics (Price of Progress, Skyshroud Elite) actually work now. It also does not get searched with Land Tax.
How do I beat Storm Combo? Well in Legacy decks that win on Turn 2 aren't Storm Combo. (Because let's face it, why are you playing a Turn 2 Storm Combo deck on purpose when you can win with Lion's Eye Diamonds right now?) So this deck is thrown into a Turn 2 Category of decks. Storm Combo is a matchup I would try to dodge. Is that a acceptable answer? No? Then if Storm Combo was EVERYWHERE then making a SB would be easy. Curse of Exhaustion, Rule of Law.. Ethersworn Canonist, the Aura of Silence.. 3Sphere, Chalice, Leyline of Sanctity. There is more Storm Combo hate than there are actual played Storm Combo cards I would almost bet at this point in the game. A Storm Combo player looking at a MonoWhite player he crushed game 1 (or got unluckily blown out by a fast painter combo sticking) will usually think that he needs to bring in anti-anti storm cards. We just shuffle the 15 card sideboard in, act like we brought in Leyline of Sanctity and the whole anti-storm package because we play to win. He starts Duressing and Thoughtseizing and finds that he busted and there is nothing there to be taken. The Land Tax is already on the battlefield at this point or we have Enlightened Tutor in resp to discard effect with a Painter piece on the table. It's too late. Socially engineering opponents is a very low trick indeed but this is a deck to do just that with.
Why stress the Land Tax in the above Storm Combo question? Land Tax is the reason to play this deck. You need to stress it. Why do we run nothing but basics? To garuntee a 3 card advantage off of Tax almost every time. Sticking a Tax and Rack and then drawing 10 cards is acceptable to win games. Then you start casting multiple Painter's Servant pieces in a turn and because of 2 cards they dropped a game. (3 if we suspect Emralku effects). One strength to this style deck that wasn't previously viable before Tax getting unbanned is that we can drop a matchup that everyone doesn't play (Storm Combo, which is a easy matchup for a White deck to have a chance at winning) for utility against decks that are easy to play or see more numbers. Goblins, Burn, Dredge. Goblins would love to see that City of Traitors so they can Waste it, and go to town with a Lackey while you recover. MUD/Stax decks have more or less the same agenda when looking at other non-basics. If you are really scared of Storm Combo play Null Rod's and drop the Painter/Helm approach. Also against MUD or Mangara Flickerwisp.dek Ghost Quarters will get you a land as long as you have any left and also applys for Path to Exile. Let's face it, being able to stuff Goblins, Burn and Dredge is impressive enough in my book already. (Those 3 decks rotate in and out of the DTB's when combined alot. I would like to know the statistics on just how often they rotate out of the DTB status combined) Having game against Control decks (didn't counter Land Tax? You should lose) and Combo (Pondering and Brainstorming for 2 turns? You could be dead) is what Land Tax has going for it. The fact is that 'Troll Archtypes' ( Goblins, Burn and Dredge.. then you can add things like Berserk Stompy etc it goes downhill from there.) take more of a loss when they lose to a deck that can specifically metagame against them since the tiered decks (RUG Delver for Example) usually take epic losses to Dredge, Goblins and Burn in that respect. I know for a fact that RUG Delver doesn't want to get served those 3 decks round after round. In that sense if you feel like people are prepping easymode decks (aggros) for a unknown metagame then play TaxRack and win.
Imperial Painter's Moon's don't do anything to Basic lands. Abolish takes care of opposing Painter. If they so happen to be playing the legit Imperial Painter, then you know that they have Red cards so any Red card matchup is in your favor with all the anti-red we have naturally. To answer the question 'How do I protect Painter?' Play Absolute Law, then play Painter naming Red. You even out the battlefield advantages RUG Delver gets with RIP. RIP hits Nimble Mongoose so they can't aggro for 3/3, RIP smashes Tarmogoyf. It hits control decks that pack Snapcaster Mage. Hurts Storm Combo that wants Ill-Gotten Gains or Past in Flames. Let's us win through Emralku. Beats Dredge. The list goes on I'm sure. Stops Crucible of Worlds. All this card does to us is stop Argivian Find, which for 1 mana happens to get back the Rest In Peace to be stuck again on the battlefield. Cabal Therapy decks, Cabal Ritual decks also get hit by Rest in Peace.
After thinking on it more, Celestial Purges hit Deathrite Shaman naturally and Dark Confidant. Those 2 cards pretty much in any decent Legacy metagame are going to see play, so that gives TaxRack(Metagame deck that combos) a avenue to play. Sensei's Diving Top is a good card to consider for this deck but there is enough going on as is. I would like to see how you could take my shell (1-3 CMC) and turn it into the Helm shell (1-4 or whatever numbers here). I think for different Metagames they would both be appropriate. The beauty of TaxRack is that until they unban Mental Misstep, I have no reason to splash for another color unless something comes along on the same powerlevel as the MM. (Wizards unbanning Gush powerlevel card in Legacy) Mental Misstep along with Daze would be a strategy worth playing in TaxRack and would also solve your little Storm Combo problem maindeck.
Re: [Deck] W/x Parfait (Tax/Rack Control)
Show me how you can win turn 1/2 with Painter/Stone and you might convince me with that combo. Consider removal and permission.
In Imperial Painter and U/R versions, you can protect it with permission (whether it be Force of Will or Blast effects). Goblin Welder also plays an important role.
Back when I played it in Quinn, if I am not facing combo, I would always try to play it out until I have eight mana late game for the whole combo and a chant effect. That deck was built to grind so you play it out properly.
Against Storm, I agree. It's a bad matchup game one. Big whoop, a lot of tier 1.5-2 decks have terrible Storm matchups. But you know what, who's playing Storm these days? Koby? Bryant Cook? (no offense guys).
Worst case scenario, you dedicate your sideboard to it or do what Aggroloam players do; don't play the deck.
As for Basic lands vs. City of Traitors, I think it's wrong for the deck to limit it to basic lands. You have a card that helps you when you get land screwed (Land Tax). City of Traitors accelerate you to board dominating spells without drastically increasing your land count on the board. Trust me on this. City of Traitors (and Crystal Vein) has helped "ramp" the deck in a format with minimal Mox option.
What made Parfait great in Vintage early 2000 era was decks also needed lands in junction to Moxen to win. Now even decks in Legacy can win with only one or two lands on the field. This is what sets Land Tax back. This is why it was banned in other formats outside of Vintage almost a decade ago and unplayable now.
Also on Wasteland, I would be more than happy for my opponent to Wasteland my City of Traitor. Once I've got my two mana off of it, I am happy even if it's once. I think you misunderstood the City of Traitors suggestion. I am not implying to flood the deck with stack effects, but have a couple in junction to your cheap removal/disruption.
Edit to Shax's edit:
My list does run SDT and a two of off Helm. Also, people seem to forget Pithing Needle exist.
Re: [Deck] W/x Parfait (Tax/Rack Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shax
Let's answer some of these shall we?
Why not run Helm? Painter's Servant combo plus Rest in Peace accomplishes the same goal but cheaper on a turn by turn basis. I can atleast have my combo out just like you can turn 1/2.
Because Helm doesn't die hard to creature removal, which every legacy deck packs but combo. And if you play against any competent combo player, be it storm, elfball, belcher, reanimator, omniscience, sneak or whatever WILL outrun you. A turn 1/2 painter win? really? The only way to achieve this is through a hand with at least two moxes, the required lands, the combo in hand, AND your opponent having no disruption. A turn three combo win is possible, but again you need to have a really good hand AND your opponent lacking disruption. Which is highly improbable, because any good combo player will only keep hands that are fast or have enough disruption to buy the time. Remember that the key here is that you only have RIP as disruption to buy time, which certanly stop dregde on its tracks, stops reanimator if resolved and could hurt other decks or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shax
How do I beat Storm Combo? Well in Legacy decks that win on Turn 2 aren't Storm Combo. (Because let's face it, why are you playing a Turn 2 Storm Combo deck on purpose when you can win with Lion's Eye Diamonds right now?) So this deck is thrown into a Turn 2 Category of decks. Storm Combo is a matchup I would try to dodge. Is that a acceptable answer? No? Then if Storm Combo was EVERYWHERE then making a SB would be easy. Curse of Exhaustion, Rule of Law.. Ethersworn Canonist, the Aura of Silence.. 3Sphere, Chalice, Leyline of Sanctity. There is more Storm Combo hate than there are actual played Storm Combo cards I would almost bet at this point in the game. A Storm Combo player looking at a MonoWhite player he crushed game 1 (or got unluckily blown out by a fast painter combo sticking) will usually think that he needs to bring in anti-anti storm cards. We just shuffle the 15 card sideboard in, act like we brought in Leyline of Sanctity and the whole anti-storm package because we play to win. He starts Duressing and Thoughtseizing and finds that he busted and there is nothing there to be taken. The Land Tax is already on the battlefield at this point or we have Enlightened Tutor in resp to discard effect with a Painter piece on the table. It's too late. Socially engineering opponents is a very low trick indeed but this is a deck to do just that with.
This is not about socially engineering your opponents, but hoping they are blind or just bad: any competent storm player against a deck like this, which stronger hate is in form of permanents will not rely on discard, but board in bouncing and destroying, which are great in comboing through your hate and in stoping your combo. It's obvious that if you stuff yout 15 against that match-up, but that¡s true to almost every deck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shax
Why stress the Land Tax in the above Storm Combo question? Land Tax is the reason to play this deck. You need to stress it. Why do we run nothing but basics? To garuntee a 3 card advantage off of Tax almost every time. Sticking a Tax and Rack and then drawing 10 cards is acceptable to win games. Then you start casting multiple Painter's Servant pieces in a turn and because of 2 cards they dropped a game. (3 if we suspect Emralku effects). One strength to this style deck that wasn't previously viable before Tax getting unbanned is that we can drop a matchup that everyone doesn't play (Storm Combo, which is a easy matchup for a White deck to have a chance at winning) for utility against decks that are easy to play or see more numbers. Goblins, Burn, Dredge. Goblins would love to see that City of Traitors so they can Waste it, and go to town with a Lackey while you recover. MUD/Stax decks have more or less the same agenda when looking at other non-basics. If you are really scared of Storm Combo play Null Rod's and drop the Painter/Helm approach. Also against MUD or Mangara Flickerwisp.dek Ghost Quarters will get you a land as long as you have any left and also applys for Path to Exile. Let's face it, being able to stuff Goblins, Burn and Dredge is impressive enough in my book already. (Those 3 decks rotate in and out of the DTB's when combined alot. I would like to know the statistics on just how often they rotate out of the DTB status combined) Having game against Control decks (didn't counter Land Tax? You should lose) and Combo (Pondering and Brainstorming for 2 turns? You could be dead) is what Land Tax has going for it. The fact is that 'Troll Archtypes' ( Goblins, Burn and Dredge.. then you can add things like Berserk Stompy etc it goes downhill from there.) take more of a loss when they lose to a deck that can specifically metagame against them since the tiered decks (RUG Delver for Example) usually take epic losses to Dredge, Goblins and Burn in that respect. I know for a fact that RUG Delver doesn't want to get served those 3 decks round after round. In that sense if you feel like people are prepping easymode decks (aggros) for a unknown metagame then play TaxRack and win.
And here we go to the main point: parfait is about breaking land tax, which is an engine that nets card advantage along several turns, so you have to design your deck with that in mind, as you will probably be playing into turn 4+. And when you will be getting card advantage and situational hate almost every legacy deck in that time will just be winning the game if undisrupted. My point was not your game against combo, there are plenty of decks with an horrible combo match-up, the problem is your game against anything.
Of course if you stock your maindeck against red decks and graveyard, you have a great game against them, but in any diverse meta they are a minority. They aren't even in the DTB section now. Goblins goes in and out, meybe it will do a comeback due to the new batallion onedrop, dredge depends on people forgetting about it, but with the prevalence of Deathrite I doubt it will come back in some time and burn, while widely played, isn't a real DTB (sans that time that took a couple of SCG by surprise it usually doesn't put great results).
I disagree about control decks. Again, have you played against decent control players and decks?. In your deck a resolved Land Tax is irrelevant to the control player: the thing is that any control player have at least eight hard solutions (StP, FOW in UWx; Decay, FOW in BUG; and that is the bare minimum, add things like Counterspell, Dismember, Countertop, Terminus, Deed, discard... hell, even a GSZ into Pridemage counts as an inavoidable answer) to your just four painters. If you want to count Argivian as painters 5-8 there is no RIP, so snapcaster becomes swords 5-8. The rest of your cards are completly irrelevant. No removal in your side means that while you are exchanging painters with their removal a single Snapcaster could go the distance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shax
Imperial Painter's Moon's don't do anything to Basic lands. Abolish takes care of opposing Painter. If they so happen to be playing the legit Imperial Painter, then you know that they have Red cards so any Red card matchup is in your favor with all the anti-red we have naturally. To answer the question 'How do I protect Painter?' Play Absolute Law, then play Painter naming Red. You even out the battlefield advantages RUG Delver gets with RIP. RIP hits Nimble Mongoose so they can't aggro for 3/3, RIP smashes Tarmogoyf. It hits control decks that pack Snapcaster Mage. Hurts Storm Combo that wants Ill-Gotten Gains or Past in Flames. Let's us win through Emralku. Beats Dredge. The list goes on I'm sure. Stops Crucible of Worlds. All this card does to us is stop Argivian Find, which for 1 mana happens to get back the Rest In Peace to be stuck again on the battlefield. Cabal Therapy decks, Cabal Ritual decks also get hit by Rest in Peace.
You missed the point about Imperial Painter references, ot wasn't about your match-up against it, but as an example of how sucessful painter decks are those that have many forms of protecting their painter or disrupting the opponent, as Quinn did with Chant effects. Absolute law is really effective protecting a resolved painter, but again its completly dead without painter and does nothing against discard or counterspells.
Yep, RIP is great card, it hoses a great deal of cards and because of that many list play it maindeck even if it can be dead sometimes. The difference is the slot that is taking, in your deck is a spot by itself, so if it's dead it's just dead, but in Helm its a combo piece and its only dead in the sense a half from a two card combo is dead. And even if its more robust that painter, people are aware of how fragil the combo win is and Helm is just 2-3, having alternative wincons like Mesa or Elspeth. Painter and Quinn also had alternative wincons.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shax
After thinking on it more, Celestial Purges hit Deathrite Shaman naturally and Dark Confidant. Those 2 cards pretty much in any decent Legacy metagame are going to see play, so that gives TaxRack(Metagame deck that combos) a avenue to play. Sensei's Diving Top is a good card to consider for this deck but there is enough going on as is. I would like to see how you could take my shell (1-3 CMC) and turn it into the Helm shell (1-4 or whatever numbers here). I think for different Metagames they would both be appropriate. The beauty of TaxRack is that until they unban Mental Misstep, I have no reason to splash for another color unless something comes along on the same powerlevel as the MM. (Wizards unbanning Gush powerlevel card in Legacy) Mental Misstep along with Daze would be a strategy worth playing in TaxRack and would also solve your little Storm Combo problem maindeck.
The key to make a sucessful Tax decks is to balance how to capitalize the Tax engine when its online and what to do if it isn't. With the engine going you will be digging into lots of situational cards, which have the added problem that they are dead in multiples, with the only real bussines as the painter combo. And if Tax-Rack isn't online, which will happen more times that you think, you will have no other plan that topdecking the combo through a great deal of chaff before losing. And god bless us if the rampant BGx decks have something in second games along the lines of Thougseize a combo piece into Surgical.
Nevertheless, is your meta is full of red/graveyard based decks, I will like to hear how it fares in tournament play and will love to see reports.
EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shax
All this card does to us is stop Argivian Find, which for 1 mana happens to get back the Rest In Peace to be stuck again on the battlefield.
Only if RIP was discarded or countered, if it was already in play it exiles itself when destroyed.
Re: [Deck] W/x Parfait (Tax/Rack Control)
Partial primer posted.
Also, I am contemplating on Maindecking Suppression Field. I know it's a non-bo to Scroll Rack, Helm of Obedience and Elspeth but the main target of that card is to disrupt Fetchlands. Definitely needs testing. I probably won't mind if Scroll Rack costs 3 to activate if my opponent's get mana screwed because his Fetchlands can't do much or his Deathrite Shaman can't tap for mana (DRS's land ability isn't a mana ability).
If you can hit Fetchlands with Pithing Needle, it's awesome but it's harder like that.
I wish Blind Obedience also affected lands.
Re: [Deck] W/x Parfait (Tax/Rack Control)
 GRiiMES: we can end it now
 Shax: Ok
So I beat my worst matchup
GRiiMES reveals his library.
 Shax: basically on some fluke wins
 GRiiMES: it happens
 Shax: 2-1 ScrollTax!
gg
Beat TES Storm Combo.
Game 1 he gets blown out by Painter's Servant Grindstone because I get a easy Painter out and start Celestial Purging his Chrome Mox and then Abolish his Lion's Eye Diamond, shortly after I get a Grindstone.
Game 2 he blows me out. (Ad Nauseam)
Game 3 I stick a Rest in Peace, his hand contains the 1 Ad Nauseam that deck contains and has to exile it to Lion's Eye Diamond. He makes 10 mana and goes for Infernal Tutor, it ends up being RRRRRR and BB, he is forced to use a Tendrils of Agony for 12 and I go to 8. (He sticks a turn 1 Leyline of Sanctity (some tech I suppose) to fight PainterGrindstone and I Abolish that as well)
Shortly after he concedes because he cannot do anything.
Warmth, Refraction Trap, Oblivion Ring and Rest in Peace can fight Storm decks. (Whats worse for a Ad Nauseam player going to a low life total to see a game loss because of a Refraction Trap in response to their EtW Swing? And they did it all with Dark Rituals/Lotus Petal, no Rite of Flames needed because of Painter) Warmth? Storm to 9, I gain 18 life with Painter out. Oblivion Ring for more artifact/enchantment hate and Rest in Peace to stop Graveyard combos.
I don't need to say more except that Storm can be handled from Enchantment hate we already have or using a odd ball approach. Both seem just fine if you intend to dodge Storm.
Re: [Deck] W/x Parfait (Tax/Rack Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shax
 GRiiMES: we can end it now
 Shax: Ok
So I beat my worst matchup
GRiiMES reveals his library.
 Shax: basically on some fluke wins
 GRiiMES: it happens
 Shax: 2-1 ScrollTax!
gg
Beat TES Storm Combo.
Game 1 he gets blown out by Painter's Servant Grindstone because I get a easy Painter out and start Celestial Purging his Chrome Mox and then Abolish his Lion's Eye Diamond, shortly after I get a Grindstone.
Game 2 he blows me out. (Ad Nauseam)
Game 3 I stick a Rest in Peace, his hand contains the 1 Ad Nauseam that deck contains and has to exile it to Lion's Eye Diamond. He makes 10 mana and goes for Infernal Tutor, it ends up being RRRRRR and BB, he is forced to use a Tendrils of Agony for 12 and I go to 8. (He sticks a turn 1 Leyline of Sanctity (some tech I suppose) to fight PainterGrindstone and I Abolish that as well)
Shortly after he concedes because he cannot do anything.
Warmth, Refraction Trap, Oblivion Ring and Rest in Peace can fight Storm decks. (Whats worse for a Ad Nauseam player going to a low life total to see a game loss because of a Refraction Trap in response to their EtW Swing? And they did it all with Dark Rituals/Lotus Petal, no Rite of Flames needed because of Painter) Warmth? Storm to 9, I gain 18 life with Painter out. Oblivion Ring for more artifact/enchantment hate and Rest in Peace to stop Graveyard combos.
I don't need to say more except that Storm can be handled from Enchantment hate we already have or using a odd ball approach. Both seem just fine if you intend to dodge Storm.
^And?
First, I have some experience playing with/against storm combo, and your opponent, by the way you describe the matches, seems to be just horrible at playing it. Game 1: I can't imagine a excuse for getting LED blown, game 3: I don't even know where to start, Leyline of Sanctity? seriously? a practically uncastable 4 mana spell in an Ad Nauseum deck sideboarded against a match-up where it does nothing relevant? Maybe its a new trend, but no, tcdecks shows a grand total of zero ad nauseum decks with Leyline, which puts his build into question. And the tendrils for 12? Again there is no reasonable line of play that ends like that.
So you beat once a bad player and your conclusion is that your oddball approach is the a viable solution to the storm match-up. Warmth is another card that, while its true that when paired with a Painter negates the Tendrils win, does almost nothing on its own, does nothing on most match-ups and seems to be overkill or win more in the ones it does. It's like when some years ago the UW tempo designer claimed that he had a positive record game 1 against Dredge and showed it with MWS matchs where he in fact win, but not for his deck merits but for is opponents keeping no dredgers hands, mulliganing to oblivion or making ridiculous plays.
So, again, if you propose a strange build claiming it to be the real Tax Deck with a postive match with most decks and like to be taken seriously, please provide good tournament results, reasonable theoretical justification or decent testing. Up to now, there are no results of a deck with a similar approach as yours, the only thing we agree is the great burn match up, you have not addressed any other point besides the bad storm pairing (which was stated not to be a relevant point) and if your conclusions came from testing like that last one allow me to show my doubts.
@Supression Field: it depends on the build. I would like to try to assemble a list with more of a Quinn mix, so it has more options in case Tax in not active, and the nombos start to rise adding SDTs and Sheets. Also multiples, which you really want against fetchlands, could really hurt you, as five for scrolling or helming, four for elspeth activation it's a lot in a deck wanting to have as few lands as possible. Nevertheless, it will be more of a meta/rogue factor choice, so it's worth testing if now it's the fitting one (I don't know how is mine as due to work I hadn't be able to play for a while).
Re: [Deck] W/x Parfait (Tax/Rack Control)
I originally took this up because I was attempting to draw up a deck that worked well in current meta which is rampant with stoneblade/JUND/BUG/Team america.
I am attempting to run a W/U mashup of parfait:
http://www.mtgdeckbuilder.net/Decks/ViewDeck/452676
Really the boons of running blue with white is that you have the obvious daze combo, access to counterbalance, tezzerat is playable, i had also initially added blue with the intention of running a snapcaster/divert to address the ton of thoughtseize/abrupt decay that is permeating the general meta atm...
1) Daze with land tax is obvious why it is useful, also can come out turn 1 or 2 which seems to be the weakest point of this deck.
2) Counterbalance isn't necessarily a "win more" card. There are circumstances where land tax can't be played/activated, also if you happen to draw an empty hand with no rack/tax counterbalance with top is still useful while you sift for combo pieces. Also remains useful as a late game draw as it never hurts to drop a CB while rack/top is on table (as long as you don't draw two, but then u throw one back to rack), feel this is still good even with abrupt decay, intention is to sideboard some divert/misdirection that I can board in against BUG for annoying thoughtseize hate/abrupt decay games 2-3. Also has some soft synergy with enlightened tutor which keeps tutor from being a dead draw late after engine is ramped up...
3) tezz is similar to elspereth but I like that he lets me draw through my library and collect artifacts, this helps thin the deck for magic bullets and also ramps up the hand again for scroll rack, giving an additional draw engine besides tax. I am running a somewhat artifact heavy build intentionally as the mox diamonds/tops/rack itself can be useful later without just being duplicates (serve to fuel draw engine/wincon).
Have only done a paucity of play testing, but, the main issue I am having is turn 1-2 where I am getting blown out by well placed thought-seize/targeted discard, turn one thought-seize (if the person knows at all what you are playing) is brutal if it rips a rack out of your hand or forces you to discard rest in piece against BUG etc. Similarly cheap combo decks such as combo elves will have a progen on turn 3 very consistently which I think is difficult to deal with. I feel as though chant/silence has to be run almost mandatory to slow down opponent, game winner I feel is really humility in all circumstances and then defending the card unless you get a lucky rest in piece -> helm that is not disrupted. Deck feels very slow to turn 3-4 where if I can drop rack and tax for even 1-2 turns uninterrupted I can usually winout... Thoughts on my list? May be bringing this to SCG this weekend for legacy competition haven't piloted parfait competitively before....
Re: [Deck] W/x Parfait (Tax/Rack Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Shax
Ya I have a suggestion. Play the real TaxRack deck.
4 Scroll Rack
4 Land Tax
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Mox Diamond
14 Plains
4 Tithe
4 Grindstone
4 Painter's Servant
3 Rest in Peace
3 Circle of Protection: Red
4 Celestial Purge
4 Argivian Find
4 Abolish
SB: 4 Oblivion Ring
SB: 4 Path to Exile
SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Absolute Law
SB: 1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB: 1 Warmth
SB: 2 Refraction Trap
Have fun.
When I was playing tax/rack about 6 months ago, it was in something I built that would create a series of board locks. This is the first time I've tried it in more of a combo strategy. I sleeved it and was unimpressed when I initially looked at it but when a sat to matches with it, Wow...
It isn't as scary as my omni-show but I don't think it is supposed to be. What I like is the ability to catch people off guard and watch the misplays (no, jace can't bounce snapcaster because servant and absolute law are down). Cute goyf, but I'll COP it for now since the servant is down until I draw or tutor a rest in peace.
I play with really seasoned players who can make a variety of decks (New England) and still watch them rib each other when one lets a scroll rack stick.
The ability to Argivian find around counter magic and tutor is certainly powerful.
The weakness I felt the other day was the attempted target of abrupt decay at absolute law. It was keeping the servant safe from a swords at that moment.
It makes me wonder if there is a benefit to greater auramancy. Also thought of Hanna's custody as I play against a liquid metal coating, artifact destruction decks from time to time.
Re: [Deck] W/x Parfait (Tax/Rack Control)
Necro time.
I would like to mingle in this discussion earlier, but didn't play magic for about a year or two. Now I was just browsing the internet and found that Land Tax was unbanned for a year now. This was my cue to come back to the format. I started testing different lists and discussed through private messages with (nameless one).
I've read through the thread and started testing.
I've started with a vintage like build, Something like 14 plains, 4 Wasteland, 7 plows, 7 chants, 4 Enlightened Tutors alot of one-offs ed. The deck failed miserably. I had to few lands and really needed Land Tax to get started and didn't get enough out of Landtax because my curve was higher than other decks. The silver bullets I used weren't the best one either. I started testing and the list from (nameless one) seems like a good start.
Things I found:
Manabase
We need to be able to operate on 2/3 lands max to get the max out of Land Tax. If our curve ends on 4 we can't do it only on lands.
The options found in the thread:
- Change the curve to end on 3 mana
- Serra's Sanctum
- Mox Diamond
- Extraplanar Lens
- Lotus Vale/Scorched Ruins
- City of Traitors/Crystal Vein
Lets look at them closer:
Changing the curve to 3 mana max not seems optimal: White has got some very good 4-mana bombs, Elspeth, Knight Errant/Humility foremost. The only kill-condition on 3 mana is Servant, which isn't easy to protect, especially if you have to cast them over more turns.
Serra's Sanctum gets to late online. I counted the enchantments I had down and only in cornercases It produced 3 mana before I won the game.
Mox Diamond is I think an auto-inclusion. The only problem is that it might be hard to cast early on if you play to few lands. But later it's very solid because it keeps the landcount low, you have enough lands in hand thanks to Land Tax. You do want to play more then 20 lands though.
Extraplanar Lens is similar to Lotus Vale. Make more mana with less lands. I keep Scorched Ruins out of the picture, because the need of coloured sources. Both give x for 1 when destroyed. If you look at the development over the first turns Lostus Vale is better: You got 3 mana on turn 3, while you have to tap out for Extraplanar Lens. In multiples there quite even too. 2 Vales against 2 Lens and 2 plains each give 6-mana. Vale only require extra turns to get in to play.
The next question is removal: Extraplanar Lens is a little easier to remove: it can be discarded and there is some more removal to it then Lotus Vale. Destroying Lotus Vale is a 3 for 1 instead of a 2 for 1.
Looking at the tierdecks I rather play Lotus Vale. I found the third turn to important to tap out for Extraplanar Lens. I also found it easier to protect Lotus Vale (Pithing Needle on Wasteland.)
City of Traitors or Crystal Veins. Also a solid option. In my opinion City of Traitors is superior to Crystal Veins. Being able to tap 2 mana in 2 turns is better. If you don't need the two mana just don't play City of Traitors.
So the manabase should be something like:
3-4 Mox Diamond
3-4 Lotus Vale
13-14 Lands
4 City of Traitors
The lands could be basics combined with Ghost Quarters. I don't like Ghost Quarters but with the new legendary rules it might be needed to destroy some utility lands.
It is very weird for a deck that can work on so few lands you need so many sources. But actually it's 18 lands, because Mox Diamond and Lotus Vale can't be count as lands. On top of that Land Tax main task is to gain card-advantage and not to fix the manabase. Also is it easier to play through land-flood instead of land-screw.
Looking at draw additionaly next to Land Tax-Scroll Rack. The best option is Sensei's Divinig Top. Everybody agree's that. Another option would be to splash blue for Jace, the mindsculptor. Brainstorm isn't a optimal fit in the deck. You lack fetchlands and you want white mana early on.
So let say
4 Scroll Rack
4 Land Tax
2 Sensei's Divining Top
Another discussion I found were the number of Enlightened Tutor. There are two solid points: 1) You have to play 4 because you want to see them every game or 2) You have to play less then four, because multiple sucks. I myself play 4 and would that suggest that. Sure having 2 in the openinghand sucks, but after that you just tutor for Scroll Rack and shuffle the other one away. So the card is never dead in your hand.
4 Enlightened Tutor
Spot Removal
Swords to Plowshare vs. Path to Exile. Another though choice, both are great. Swords to Plowshare always has the same minor drawback. Path to Exile has sometimes a bigger drawback, sometimes no drawback(if the opponent can't/won't find a land) sometimes an advantage. I think the choice depends alot on the decks you will face. Against decks with Vial and cheap creatures Path to Exile is normally better, the opponent can't really abuse the excess in lands. Against aggro-control decks it might be dangerous to give them the mana.
Another pro I find on Path to Exile is that it seems better post-board. Opponents will try to play around Land Tax and Path to Exile can fight this.
So in short:
4 Swords to Plowshare / Path to Exile
3/4 Terminus
I think this is the core of the deck. The rest isn't strict. We have room for some utility and we need to win the game. Lets start with Utility. The best cards are Humility, Pithing Needle and Oblivion Ring. Humility is better than Moat because of al the utility creatures running around. Combined they are really good, but if you can put down one it would be Humility. Pithing Needle is needed to fight Wasteland. Getting your Lotus Vale wasted is sad. But using it on Planeswalker isn't a bad thing too. Oblivion Ring is the best we got as a catch-all. For the rest it depends on your meta, if you want to play Isochron Scepter, Moat, SmokeStack, Rule of Law, Trinisphere, Circle of Protection be my guest. But if you won't know what to expect I would suggest Humility, Pithing Needle and Oblivion Ring. A little metadependent but almost always solid is Rest in Peace. It stops some strategies of top-decks stone-cold, it also give you the option to play Helm of Obidience.
Kill conditions should finish the game fast and are hard to stop. Normaly Goblin Belcher was used with Sacred Mesa. Because we want to keep the mana down, I rather play Elspeth, Knight Errant now then Sacred Mesa. Sure when you can create 6 mana a turn at least Sacred Mesa is solid. But with Elspeth, Knight Errant you just need to spend 4 mana once and you're good to go.
Goblin Charbelcher is still possible. I wouldn't play other utility lands if you want to do it reliable. it costs 7 mana if you're lucky. But sometimes it takes 2 or 3 turns to win and that might be too slow.
If you play Rest in Peace anyway, Helm of Obidience is very solid too. Only problem is that it's kinda bad on it's own. Although I once was lucky with Emrakul.
Painter Servant / Grind Stone isn't for this deck I believe. both pieces are bad on there own. Game one the opponent will likely have a hand for creature removal for creatures. You need Orim's Chant to protect it and 7 mana to pull it off. It also fails to Emrakul.
Other card choices I've seen are Balancing Act or Cataclysm. Both aren't optimal in this deck. Balancing Act is just a weak card in this deck, you have to much permanents. Even if you got a light board of Lotus Vale, Mox Diamond, Land Tax and Scroll Rack it's still quite weak. Opponents just keep 2 creatures and 2 lands and you are still loosing.
Cataclysm is very solid on paper, but in reality not so good. First you don't play creatures, so never can take full effect of it. Lots of deck can live with it, as long as they don't overextend. I'm just afraid I will stare down a Island+Aether Vial+Merfolk or Land+Counterbalance+Sensei's Divining Top or something.
The biggest flaw we might need to adress is the fast combo-matchup. Pre-board it's probably horrible having very few answers for it. Sure you can run cards like Rule of Law or Trinisphere MD but does that really stop them? Post-board they will board in bounce but hopefully we can board enough cards to stop them.
Another weak matchup I found in testing was Counterbalance. Our curve isn't that good against them. Needle on Top helps a little, but need to be played before hand.
If we can shore up our weakest matchups this should be a tier 2 deck at least I think.
Any comments?
Re: [Deck] W/x Parfait (Tax/Rack Control)
The three reasons why I ran Pithing Needle on my list was:
Super Jace, Sensei's Divining Top and Wasteland (to some extent Fetchlands). If the deck could find a way to abuse Suppression Field, it would be great but hampering your own Scroll Rack and Elspeth also sucks.
You also have to keep in mind that the posted list was before Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman took off. Deal with the Deathrite should be bad but Abrupt Decay is really good against the deck.
Another idea that I had was to splash red, mainly for Blood Moon, Burning Wish and a defacto way of protecting your pieces: Boros Charm.
I might revisit Orim's Chant
Re: [Deck] W/x Parfait (Tax/Rack Control)
Wouldn't Back to Basics have a better effect for this deck then Blood Moon? Forcing players to play more lands, so they can keep casting spells seems solid.
Playing Blood Moon or B2B will change your manabase. Lotus Vale should go (a mountain wich destroys to lands of you own / a Black Lotus that costs to untapped lands is just sad.) If that's the case I would really like to see a sacrifice outlet for the lands.
If I would splash red, I think the first card to include would be devastating dreams. The "at random" is the only downside.
BB
Re: [Deck] W/x Parfait (Tax/Rack Control)
Finn and I discussed about that before too. Along with Faithless Looting and Winds of Change (and Supresion Field) in place of Scroll Rack).
The deck isn't tier1 right now but I enjoy playing it once in a while. Have I ever finished 1st overall with my list? No. Have I topped 8 with it? Multiple times but not on a 30+ stage.
It's not perfect but I am still hoping that a card or two will get printed in the near future to help the deck (see Rest in Peace)
Re: [Deck] W/x Parfait (Tax/Rack Control)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
(nameless one)
Finn and I discussed about that before too. Along with Faithless Looting and Winds of Change (and Supresion Field) in place of Scroll Rack).
The deck isn't tier1 right now but I enjoy playing it once in a while. Have I ever finished 1st overall with my list? No. Have I topped 8 with it? Multiple times but not on a 30+ stage.
It's not perfect but I am still hoping that a card or two will get printed in the near future to help the deck (see Rest in Peace)
So I tried to make a list using the cards above, but I can't make it work... Suppresion Field is nice and all, but it stops more cards in the deck then I would like. Elspeth got worse. Because Faitless Looting you can't use the Rest in Piece to full extend (a card I'm very happy about.) With that Helm of Obedience doesn't work. Belcher costs 9 mana to cast and activate.
Also quite some time it did enter the battlefield, but didn't make the impact I would like. Sure T1 Field, T2 Landtax with an opponent having multiple fetches in had is solid. But I needing alot of mana to kill the opponent couldn't take advantage of it. After turn 3 it doesn't really effect the board-state. The opponent still could turn the Goyf and Deathrite Shaman sideways to beat my face. Something Rest in Piece stops better.
The card would be good times if I could consitently play it early on and could use the turns it gave me to lock the opponent out of the game / win the game. I also tried it as 1-off as Silver Bullet, but in all cases I rather tutored for Needle/Oblivion Ring/Humility/Helm of Obedience.
If you want to stop fetches I would say Blood Moon wins it easily and Pithing Needle is good enough to stop Plainswalkers and stuff.
So I'm back to optimzing the white version with or without a splash small to red, mostly for Blood Moon. Devastating Dreams while a very good card is still worse then Terminus and I don't have room to add in another slot.
But now I'm stuck for the sideboard, but I can't go any further then 4 Leyline of Sancity/4 Trinisphere/ 3 Aura of Silence. Any suggestions?
.BB.
Re: [Deck] W/x Parfait (Tax/Rack Control)
I would suggest Karmic Justice although that's just a catch-all thing. What does your meta look like?
Re: [Deck] W/x Parfait (Tax/Rack Control)
Would you ever consider the two-card softlock of Storage Matrix and Relic Barrier?
