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Greetings from a dedicated Solitaire player!
I watch here for ideas for myself and am really digging this build. I'm looking at playing it for MTGO because paper cards and I aren't seeing eye to eye right now. I know that in the other ehchantress deck, the sliver has been better for me online.
My question is how do you guys feel about matchups with Griselbrand and Emrakul?
The best cards Enchantress can run to handle those two IMHO in UG are Pithing Needle and Seal of Removal respectively.Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymos
i'm currently testing the following list
4 argothian enchantress
4 cloud of faeries
1 emrakul, the aeons torn
4 enchantress's presence
4 gaea's touch
4 wild growth
4 utopia sprawl
4 seal of removal
4 elephant grass
2 green sun's zenith
1 mirri's guile
1 treachery
2 words of wind
3 misty rainforest
2 windswept heath
2 tropical island
1 savannah
2 serra's sanctum
2 tropical island
1 island
8 forest
i've been happy with it so far. things i wanna do are adding a maindeck karakas, most likely in place of a sanctum. i didn't like the living wish build, so i maindecked emrakul instead. treachery is a sweet piece of tech i found playing alot of EDH, it helps in the show and tell matches a bit and helps untap alot of lands at once to ramp faster.
any constructive criticism will be greatly appreciated. i felt leaving white mana in the main would give me versatility in sideboard choices.
Those matchups are surprisingly decent. You can (and will) still get blown out with an early Show and Tell before you have a chance to find an out, but the 4 maindeck Seal of Removal does a lot to disrupt their monsters , and Elephant Grass keeps Griselbrand from attacking, which can occasionally just be enough to beat them. There are a number of cards you can board in if you're losing to Sneak and Show decks consistently, as Pithing Needle and Oblivion Ring are both strong cards to Show and Tell in. If they're playing Omniscience then Seal of Removal alone isn't enough, but there's a lot of enchantment hate that you can bring in to be prepared for game 2 and 3. Like playing against any combo deck it's not a great matchup, but it's not terrible either. Reanimator is actually a little bit better since Seal of Removal always 2-for-1s them instead of just 1-for-1, and that deck leans much more heavily on Grislebrand, making Elephant Grass great. And you can bring in graveyard hate.Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymos
@Slaughtercult - I won't beat a dead horse, but I will comment: It seems to me like you're running a version that is less efficient than the standard build. What are your reasons for running Emrakul at all? Or less than 12 Enchantresses? Treachery is interesting I guess, but I haven't found a need for something that costs 5 in the deck. Also, I don't think it works the way you think it does when it comes to Show and Tell; it won't end up enchanting an enemy's creature off of Show and Tell because the creature won't be in play to target when your half of Show and Tell resolves, and it won't untap lands if you don't cast it.
If you're going to run fewer fetchlands, which is how you got to Serra's Sanctum, there's no reason to run less than 4 Misty Rainforests, and doing so is almost certainly wrong since Misty Rainforest can get any color in your deck, whereas a generic green fetchland (like Windswept Heath) can't fetch out a basic Island. I'm not sure what white cards you're wanting to bring in from the sideboard that will justify opening yourself up to Wasteland or mulling hands with just a Serra's Sanctum in every game you play, but in my experience you don't need all that many white cards. If I could somehow guarantee that I'd never draw Gaddock Teeg or Harmonic Sliver, I wouldn't even play a Savannah.
@waytowinatwar - One thing I find myself doing often is the slow combo, which comes up when I have a Words of Wind and an enchantress in play, and two 1-mana enchantments in hand (or one in play and one in hand). With that setup, for every 2 mana you can pay, you can bounce one permanent, which is sometimes enough to keep your opponent stuck, or else to set them back two turns each turn. I think that's a parallel situation to what you were talking about, and it's definitely important to know how to do that since it's a play you have access to pretty much any time when you have a Words of Wind early in the game. But I often find myself entering turn 3 able to pay 6-8 mana, meaning I can bounce 3-4 permanents a turn for the rest of the game while I continue to build my board-position, which is often enough to just beat them if they're trying to grind you out. If you want to win with this deck, you have to know how all of your cards interact, and that's one of the strongest interactions that people don't seem to understand, which leads them to treat Words of Wind as an all-or-nothing card, but it is absolutely a powerful card for disrupting an opponent, even when you can't just insta-bounce their entire board.
I ended up going 4-4 at SCG Kansas City which is extremely disappointing as I started off 4-1 and then failed to cash. Just one more win and I would have gotten there, but I saw enough mistakes in a key match that I lost that I don't know that I can really blame the deck. It was a fun tournament in spite of that (and the ridiculous amount of snow) But here's a report.
For reference, here's the list:
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath
1 Verdant Catacombs
6 Forest
2 Island
2 Tropical Island
1 Savannah
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Cloud of Faeries
2 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
3 Chrome Mox
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Seal of Removal
4 Elephant Grass
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Seal of Primordium
4 Enchantress's Presence
2 Words of Wind
4 Green Sun's Zenith
SB:
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Krosan Grip
1 Harmonic Sliver
2 Deep Analysis
3 Mindbreak Trap
4 Leyline of Sanctity
For this tournament I was testing the main-deck Kitchen Finks instead of Mindbreak Trap, and the Leyline of Sanctity in the sideboard, as well as 3 Chrome Mox instead of an equal number of lands. I almost audibled into ANT the night before since a weird confluence of factors that probably won't happen again ended up with me having access to all of the cards I needed (including 4 Lion's Eye Diamond and the duals and Polluted Deltas), but I reasoned that people would pack a lot of hate for Storm since it just won the last open, and while I think that deck is extremely strong I knew myself enough to know that having not tested it at all I wouldn't be comfortable piloting it through the hate. I am by my nature a Storm-based combo player, so I would have probably done okay, but I also felt that if everyone was playing a fair deck with a lot of anti-storm hate then I'd just crush that field with Enchantress anyway.
Rd 1 - Punishing Jund
The guy starts off by telling me he's hungover from the night before, and I make a mental note of it. Beat him game 1 at a healthy life total and without many complications, as I think he had a pretty slow start and I didn't. Game 2 I brought in the Leyline of Sanctity and had one in the opening 7. He laughs a little and shows me 3 discard spells in his opener. The rest of the game is academic. 1-0, 2-0
Rd 2 - Esper Miracles with Geist (!!!)
There was a lot going on in this guy's list. He's from around here (I'm assuming, he had a Source play-mat) so I suppose he might have posted something at some point about his list. In either case I definitely wasn't expecting to see Geist of Saint Graft and Counterbalance in the same list, and would go so far as to say that it's probably just wrong since those two cards pull a deck in opposite directions. But then, he beat me, so I guess it was right. Game 1 he got a Counterbalance + Top going before I could do much of anything. I tried to grind him out but reached a point where I was locked out, so I scooped. Game 2 he plays a very quick Geist but I managed to just straight up raced him with 2 Cloud of Faeries and an Eternal Witness combined with a few Seal of Removals to bounce his Angel tokens. Game 3 he again dropped an early Counterbalance + Top, and then followed that up with another Geist. Can't beat that kind of pressure. 1-1, 3-2
Rd 3 - U/W/R Landstill
Wasn't expecting something like this to show up, but it went about the way that you would expect. Game 1 I resolve an Enchantress or two then run him out of Counterspells (and they were many) and take over the game. He says something about being upset that he didn't counter the Words of Wind when he had the chance, though to be honest he lost as soon as he let the first Enchantress resolve. Game 2 we trade spells a little bit, and at one point he Force of Wills my Deep Analysis. I just kind of laugh and say "Ok." He plays a Stoneforge Mystic for Sword of Fire and Ice and then Mystics in a Batterskull, then the SOFI the next turn. He equips both and bashes my face, but pretty soon I have the Seal of Primordium + Eternal Witness to stop that nonsense. I win at 1 life. 2-1, 5-2
Rd 4 - Merfolk with Chalices
Super nice guy. He starts with Island -> Aether Vial, and I say to myself "Merfolk". Then he plays a Chalice of the Void for 1 (I'd already gotten down a few Wild Growths) and I say "hmm...." I land an Enchantress and win with on infinite life. Game 2, he has three counterspells and just counters everything that's relevant while presenting a clock, which is exactly what Merfolk does when it's functioning well. Game 3 I get down to 4 life before stabilizing and eventually gaining infinite life. He wants me to actually beat him, as we are close to turns, and I oblige. Again, super nice guy, came up to me after a few other rounds and said he was rooting for me! 3-1, 7-3
Rd 5 - Punishing Jund
Played against a guy that I was sitting next to in round 2, and I noticed back then that he was both 1) playing Jund and 2) a complainer, so I made a mental note of those things. Game 1 I get all the way down to 4 life before establishing control and locking him out. I don't think he played very much discard in that game which is probably how I got there, but Kitchen Finks shone here to give me the life so that I didn't just get burned out. I ended the game with infinite life and him with no board. He said he wanted to make me beat him. I asked him if he could beat infinite life. He said he would deck me. I pointed to Words of Wind. He said "oh" and scooped them up. Game 2 I mulled to Leyline of Sanctity (though the hands I mulled weren't great anyway) and began the game with it in play. Again we have a grindy game that ends with me stabilizing at 5 life and him with no board. He may have actually sideboarded out discard since I didn't see him holding any dead cards at all, which is an interesting choice, but Leyline still kept him from burning me out or hitting me with a Nihil Spellbomb. He complained a lot more, but I tried to be nice to him and I think it cheered him up. 4-1, 9-3
Rd 6 - Belcher
Sat down at my first every feature match (not covered, unfortunately, but oh well) and got promptly Gitaxian Probed, which I took to be a bad sign. He made 14 goblins on turn 1. I had the Elephant Grass, but he had Burning Wish -> Reverent Silence, and that was that. Game 2 I boarded in Leyline of Sanctity and Mindbreak Trap and Gaddock Teeg, taking out Seal of Removal and Carpet of Flowers and Kitchen Finks and I think 1 Cloud of Faeries. Started game 2 with Leyline in play and he had a Belcher hand so I was in good shape. Drew a Mindbreak Trap that I didn't want to have to show him, but he tried to go Burning Wish -> Reverent Silence again and I had to. I got down an Elephant Grass a few turns later and beat him to death with a pair of Faeries. Game 3 was the turning point of the tournament. After seeing Mindbreak Trap, he re-sideboarded and said "Guess I have to play around Mindbreak Trap", so I assumed he went back for Xantid Swarms. I bring back in 3 Seal of Removal for some Enchantresses and a second Cloud of Faeries. I kept a hand of Misty Rainforest, Chrome Mox, Gaddock Teeg, Enchantress, Words of Wind, Cloud of Faeries, Green Sun's Zenith. I thought for a good long minute about shipping it (which I still think was a close call) and ended up keeping on the logic that if he went turn 1 Xantid Swarm, I'd go turn 1 Gaddock Teeg which he'd have to answer if he wanted to combo out. Instead he just made 10 Goblins on turn 1 and I was stuck there staring at my lack of Mindbreak Traps. Frowns. I play Gaddock Teeg anyway, block a Goblin, then play a Cloud of Faeries and an Enchantress. I block the next two, go to 2, and play an Enchantress's Presence to draw a card, but fail to find an Elephant Grass and lose. 4-2, 10-5
After playing this matchup, I think it is a lot closer than I'd assumed. After boarding, I end up with 7 cards (MBT and Leyline) to beat a Belcher and 7 cards (MBT and Elephant Grass) to beat Empty the Warrens. I was a bit bummed to have lost on a hand that I probably should have mulliganed, and extra bummed to draw a matchup against Belcher, though I guess it's unavoidable. He showed me the cards he brought in, which included both Xantid Swarm and REB (which for some reason I hadn't considered), which told me that my logic was fine, though in retrospect if he didn't have Xantid Swarm in the opener (or didn't Probe me at the start of that turn to see I didn't have a MBT), he still had like a 75% chance of just beating me on the first turn. If I had drawn an Elephant Grass, I still win that game and match. My friends who were watching said that he drew very well, but also that they would have mulliganed there, so I guess it's a toss up.
Rd 7 - Natural Order Elves
I win game 1 on the back of a whole slew of Elephant Grass. He didn't have any of the three ways to get me (Natural Order, Green Sun's Zenith or Glimpse of Nature) and so his plan of "play a bunch of guys and attack" didn't get a lot of traction, which is I suppose something that happens. Sided in Mindbreak Trap and Gaddock Teeg for Carpet of Flowers and Kitchen Finks and a Cloud of Faeries. Games two and three I mulligan to 5 cards just to find a playable hand, but I never see any actual hate cards and he just beats me. I think that this is a matchup that needs a little work, though he was, as far as I can tell, literally the only Elves player in the room so I had a good shot of just dodging him all day, but that's just not what happened. I asked him if he feared Gaddock Teeg after the match, and he said it was pretty worth it, but that his deck has so many avenues of winning that it's tough to beat. 4-3, 11-7
Rd. 8 - Pox
The good thing about Legacy is that there's a lot of decks that are at least somewhat valid. The bad thing about Legacy is that if you lose a round or two, you're much, much more likely to see the ridiculous decks. As it stands, my last shot at winning any money came through a Pox player that seemed to really enjoy doing as little as possible. He leads off with turn 1 Swamp -> Cursed Scroll, and I am pretty happy, but then he manages to Sinkhole a land I'd enchanted (which is bad) and then play a Liliana to kill my Enchantress (which is bad) and then play a Nether Void to lock us both out of the game for a while. I turbo dig through my library to find the lone Seal of Primordium (DING!) to keep Cursed Scroll from just killing me and play out a Kitchen Finks to somewhat stabilize but he eventually beats me with a Mishra's Factory after dealing with the Finks. Game 2 I bring in Leyline of Sanctity and enchantment removal and mull to a playable hand without either, whereas he starts off with a Leyline of the Void of his own, and he beats me again. We get into a gamestate where he has two Nether Voids in play (which is extremely illegal but I didn't realize it until a friend reminded me about how Enchant Worlds work after the match) and he ultimates Liliana twice, at which point I fetch through my library to find a land and realize that I've got just two left in my deck, with 3 in play, and I tell him as much and scoop. I would have paid the $50 just to not have to play that match. Gross. 4-4, 11-9.
So I finish in 69th place, just 5 out of the money (which means I definitely should have offered the split in the last round). I didn't end up facing any of the big 3 from the pre-Jund metagame (Stoneblade, RUG and Show and Tell) which was disappointing, though perhaps I would have if I had beaten Belcher. This is the third tournament in a row that I brought Enchantress to where I got knocked out by runner-runner combo decks, which is more than a little frustrating, though I think it's a testament to the strength of this deck that it's only going to get beaten by other combo decks. What I absolutely need to do is test more against combo so I can know how to reliably beat it, as it's knocked me out of the tournament consistently. I felt I was playing well, and in my grindy matchups I saw a lot of opportunities to give away percentage points which convinced me that this is actually not an easy deck to pilot. Leyline of Sanctity completely turns the Jund matchup around, since it functions as a 16 (or more)-for-1 and they have literally no way (in a standard Jund sideboard) to deal with it. It also has use against Storm-based combo decks, though I will need to test it to see if it's more than just a speed bump against something like ANT. I would not play in the current metagame without a solid plan against Jund, and I am very pleased that I decided to try Leyline out for this tournament. On a personal level, I think I played better than I have in several tournaments, and I made more correct mulliganing decisions than poor ones, which is my white whale. In the end, there's nothing more frustrating than starting out 4-1 and then failing to cash, so I'm naturally not happy about that, but I think my deck choice was solid and I think with a little more luck (mostly in pairings) and a bit better play (in mulliganing in Rd. 6) I could have made it to the top 8. Though facing a Top 8 of Reanimator and Storm and Elves could have been a little rough...
I do think that if there's one thing this tournament taught me, it's the value in having a list that is as flexible as possible. I liked the Kitchen Finks main since it gave me stuff to do against aggro decks game 1, though I do think that either it or Mindbreak Trap are both good for that spot. I was glad at multiple points throughout the tournament to have the 1-of Seal of Primordium in the main because there were a lot of situations that it helped in and at least one where I needed it. Legacy is, and probably always will be, extremely diverse and you have to be able to beat the chaff if you want a shot at beating the top decks. Winning the first round goes a long way towards having a good tournament since it means you're less likely to see stuff like Burn and all-in combo like Belcher, particularly as you continue to win. All in all, I think the deck is still extremely solid in the metagame. If people ever stop playing all sorts of combo, this deck will go from "good choice" to "excellent choice".
Nice report! Funny, informative and easy to read. thanks for taking the time to write it. Beating two junds is very nice. It would be nice to know more exactly for each match how you boarded. I currently have trouble deciding what to take out in some match ups. I'll see if I can post my current board plans in a few days.
I don't think the sb seal of primordium is needed btw. Do you? I go for a second gy hate spell. However, a case might be made for detention sphere. It is useful against zombie tokens (dredge) goblin tokens (belcher) show and tell, sneak attack, jace, liliana etc. Glad you liked the md finks, I love it.
The second Seal of Primordium was gold all day long. It does what you need it to do when you really need to do that thing, and it cycles when you draw it when there's not a pressing need for it. If there's one Disenchant effect that might get shaved it would be Krosan Grip, but I'd like to have as many solid ways to answer a Counterbalance as possible, and in the matchups where you need to deal with an artifact or enchantment, you really, really need to draw it so having a full 4 (plus GSZ for the Sliver) isn't a bad thing. I don't think I need another graveyard hate card since my matchups with graveyard decks are already pretty positive.
As for Detention Sphere, I'd never play it over Oblivion Ring since the one matchup where you really really want it (Show and Tell) is also a matchup that is highly likely to have REB/Pyroblast out of the sideboard, and I'd prefer not to bring in a card that gets nuked by an otherwise dead card of theirs. The fact that it gets tokens is nice, but Elephant Grass already does that job. Yes, it would have been nice to have in the pivotal game against Belcher, but there's pretty much no way I'd bring in Detention Sphere against Belcher or any non-Show and Tell combo deck anyway. If I needed a card specifically to deal with plainswalkers I'd just run Pithing Needle since it's more versatile, but then the only plainswalker that interacts with us in a meaningful way is Liliana which is answered with Leyline of Sanctity.
As for sideboarding, I covered the matchups where I sideboarded in lots and lots of cards, the rest of them just involved cutting the dead cards and then hedging 1-2 copies of other cards as space was needed.
benthetenor,
How do you feel about the Chrome Moxes instead of lands? What made you take dryad arbor out of your decklist?
Chrome Moxes were great. I had two or three turn 1 Enchantresses throughout the day which is really a pretty incredible way to start a game. There may be some merit to cutting one for a land, as there were a few situations where I drew one and it would have saved me some CA in the grindy matchups, but that would also pretty drastically decrease the probability of having one and an Argothian Enchantress in the opening hand, which is the whole reason to run them in the first place. I do think 3 is better than 4, but then I haven't ever tested 4, so maybe I need to.
Dryad Arbor sucks. Really pretty badly. It is true that you always want the ability to get a turn 1 accelerant, but the number of situations where having a non-basic Forest that draws Lighting Bolts is a liability is much higher than the times that having Dryad Arbor in play is a positive. The deck is already more or less immune to Wasteland, so what you're doing with Dryad Arbor is accelerating, yes, but also giving your opponent's dead cards a use. You can't ever enchant Dryad Arbor with any Wild Growth effects because it's just too much of a risk, and then the games that you don't go GSZ for 0 on turn 1, you are absolutely going to just draw it because you draw your entire deck, at which point it's a very, very bad Forest. Without playing Dryad Arbor you lose the ability to do fetchland tricks, it's true, but this isn't like Elves where you have Quirion Ranger to bounce it and fog the opponent infinitely. You'll blow out your bad opponents by ninja-ing in a Dryad Arbor to block their Dark Confidant, but then that same opponent will just beat you because you traded a land drop for a creature of theirs and that's not really what you want to be doing. Or else in the other games of the match you'll lose because you have a forest that you need that will draw a Wasteland. It's just much better in my opinion to mulligan the hand that doesn't have an accelerant if you're in a match where you need to be fast than it is to give their dead cards targets.
I cut Dryad Arbor when I started playing Chrome Mox, and I haven't looked back. Chrome Mox is a much better accelerant because when you draw it mid-combo, it comes right down and helps you if you were a little mana light. There are no decks better suited to offset the card disadvantage inherent in Chrome Mox than this one. Now, I did have a Chrome Mox get hit by Abrupt Decay in this tournament which kind of sucked, but I think that if they're hitting that with Abrupt Decay, they're not hitting an Enchantress's Presence, which would be worse.
New Tournament: 24 people, 3-0-1, tied for 2nd place.
This time around I made efforts to remember my mulliganing decisions so that I could evaluate these after the tournament. (And get feedback on them) Same (now fairly stable) 75:
4 Argothian Enchantress
2 Carpet of Flowers
4 Cloud of Faeries
2 Chrome mox
4 Elephant Grass
4 Enchantress's Presence
2 Eternal Witness
7 Forest
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Island
1 Kitchen Finks
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Savannah
1 Seal of Primordium
4 Seal of Removal
1 Tropical Island
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
3 Windswept Heath
2 Words of Wisdom
Sideboard:
1 Carpet of Flowers
2 Deep analysis
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Quasali Pridemage
1 Krosan Grip
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Surgical Extraction
Round 1 against Goblins (amazing pilot, goblin maestro) 2-1
Game 1
Opening hand (on the play):
7: Misty, Wild G, Faerie, Savannah, GSZ, Wow, Sprawl: Keep!
Amazing hand even though I know my opponent is probably playing goblins. Fetch-forest-sprawl. He plays lackey. Savannah, faerie, gsz for argothian, wild g, draw elephant grass.
Game 2 (-2 carpet of flowers, + krosan + cat)
Oh (otd):
7: Forest, Argo, Faerie, Prescence, Wow, seal of removal, krosan: Ship
6: Forest, Tropical, 2 elephant grass, wow, chrome mox: Reluctant keep
I keep him at bay behind the grass but a lackey occasionally pushes through. I get an argothian I think and start drawing some cards, he gets vials, and suddenly has goblin sharpshooter, kiki-jiki, siege gang, prospecter and deals 16. Nothing really I could have done, except maybe have shipped back my mull to six, but I don't think this would have been correct.
Game 3
Oh(otp)
7: Misty, heath, mox, argothian, cat, wow, grass: Keep!
t1 argothian, imprinting cat on mox, He plays mountain, says go. I win at 18.
Round 2 against Pox (inexperienced player) 2-1
Game 1
oh (otp)
7: only one land don't remember the rest
6: Argothian, faerie, 4 land: Keep
If he doesn't have t1 discard I can land a t2 argothian with edict protection. I do but he has two innocent blood. He destroys stuff, forces me to discard but doesn't really do much else (classic pox). I draw some land, find a prescence and I win from there
Game 2 (-2 carpet, - 4 grass, -2 seal of removal + 4 leyline, cat, krosan, + 2 analysis
oh (otd)
7: leyline, tropical, sprawl, growth, argothian, cat, wow: reluctant keep
He sinkholes my first two lands, and small pox the third, I don't draw any more and he kills me with two mishras
Game 3
oh (otp)
7: prescence, 2 argothian, faerie, windswept, misty, savannah: keep!
Short of a dark ritual from him i will land an argothian t2 i reason. I do. She dies. I land a prescence. which sticks. I start drawing cards.
Round 3 against Death and Taxes (inexperienced player) 2-0
See previous reports. Win at 1 life both games. Not close.
Round 4 against Maverick (skilled player) 1-1-1
Game 1
oh(otd)
7: precscence, 2 lands, sprawl, 3 something
Land t2 prescence. It sticks. He assembles some stuff. It is not enough.
Game 2 (-2 carpet,+cat,+krosan)
Oh(otp)
7: chrome mox, faerie, sprawl, elephant grass, wow, 2 lands: keep
I don't draw any enchantress effects, stall with grass. He's Mother into thalia into two knights. I quite firmly believe that I shouldn't keep hands like these. No enchantress no keep.
Game 3
Oh(otd)
7: mox, misty, argothian, heath, seal of rem, wow: keep!
Game starts of amazingly, and i think i can start locking him down early. But i draw a lot of guys, faerie, finks, witness, i then get the idea that i should kill him without locking him down (how quaint). But i don't really commit to this plan until it is too late. We time out When he's at 4 no creatures out, I have faerie, fink, and witness, and two argothian. 1 more turn and he'd be dead. 40 min rounds! A good experience though, since it involved some practice with attacking - which is easy to forget since 1) it often won't matter too much 2) your creatures power are overshadowed by their utility, 3) if carpets are live you want to put it off as long as possible. Sliver over cat might have made a difference this game actually since I had a choice between canonist and revoker on navy seals, killed revoker and proceeded to bounce the canonist a couple of times. Would have been better to kill revoker bounce sliver and kill canonist (next turn).
Very happy with deck/performance. I'll try to be a little more systematic next report. See if I can come up with some rules for mulligan decisions for common matchups.
New Tournament: 23 people, 3-1 tied for 2nd place.
Same 75 as before but replaced cat with sliver and one deep analysis with braingeyser.
Round 1 against Random assortment of bg rtr deck (beginner) 2-0
Game 1 onthedraw
7: Island, 2 gsz, prescence, faerie, grass,removal
6: Forest*2, heath, sprawl,prescence, faeries
We don't interact and he has no clock.
Game 2 (-2 carpet of flowers, + krosan + sliver)
7: Savannah, sprawl, gsz*2, faerie, primordium, witness
We don't interact and he has no clock.
Round 2 against Rug (good player) 2-0
Game 1 otp
7: Island, Heath, gsz, prescence*2, faerie, removal
I have him on food chain, which I think is very difficult, but it turns out that he's playing rug which is a great matchup. A t2 mongoose starts applying some pressure and he dazes and pierces some mana acceleration. I land a prescence, starts drawing, find grass, stabilize with finks.
Game 2 (-1witness, +1 carpet)
7: tropical, forest, misty, faerie*2, witness, wow
6: Heath, sprawl*2, argothian, gsz,wow
I ship my opener since I don't have any enchantreses. My 6 is good unless he passes t1 with stifle mana. He ponders. But daze my first sprawl. Second one sticks, i draw another land, play a daze proof argothian, he draws a few counters, but I 2 for 1 them with my argothian. He doesn't have any pressure and can't keep that up forever.
Round 3 against Rug (ok pilot) 2 - 0
Game 1 otd
7: forest, sprawl, wild growth, mox, argothian, prescence*2
Wow! He t1 mongoose. I go forest into mox imprint growth, tap mox to play sprawl on forest into argothian. This way I can t2 prescence. I don't get to cantrip sprawl but I think this is clearly a stronger line of play. Argothian sticks. He's never really in it.
Game 2 (-1witness, +1 carpet)
7 forest*2, savanah, growth, argothian, grass, removal.
Oh deck! Stop it with the amazing hands! I can more or less bait force with grass and play around everything else. He's never in it.
Round 4 against Tes (good pilot) 0-2 (0 - 3 really)
Game 1 otd
7: forest, sprawl, growth, argothian, gsz, removal, witness
I know he is on tes and that I'm more or less doomed g1. I get three turns, which is generous, but not enough.
Game 2 (- finks, primordium, 2 carpet, 4 removal, 1 faerie, + 4 leyline, 3 traps, sliver, 1teeg)
7: forest, misty, savannah, sprawl, argothian, gsz*2
I ship this since it doesn't have any immediate interaction with him. It does have t2 teeg but I don't realize this. It might be correct to ship either way.
6: forest*2, island, sprawl, argothian, trap.
Good hand . Unclear if I should play sprawl t1. I do though. He goes probe, volcanic, petal, dark ritual which I trap. I reason that he is unlikely to have another black sorce. But If I allow ritual he could duress into ritual into game over. He stops and passes. I go argothian. He plays duress and forces me to discard whatever I drew. I top deck a gsz into teag. I start beating down, but don't draw that many enchantments. He wishes for grapeshot. I get one more turn draw a leyline I can't cast. Passes. He rituals twice grapeshot teag, 2 leds, tutor for ad naeseum at 13 no mana floating. It works.
I might have misplayed when I set the sprawl t1 on blue. Otherwise I don't think I made any mistakes. Not sure if board is optimal though. If he can ad naeseum at some point he wins regardless if I have leylines in play (since he is likely to find chain of vapor). Tes is harder than ant since they can wish for answers and have a goblin angle which makes it harder to sideboard out stuff (grass is still useful). I'm thinking that chalice (which by default will be set to zero) might be better than trap. Leylines are clunky but good against discard based disruption and edicts so I don't want to remove any of those.
Replace traps with chalice:
Cons:
It is not live before your t1
Pros:
Like teeg he more or less has to deal with it to win.
There are ways to avoid trap which doesn't work with chalice (silence, discard,xantid)
It's better against elves
Perhaps two chalice and one trap is the way to go, to create uncertainty about how to board/play against me.
I'm not sure about exactly how to board even if it is granted that i make the aforementioned switch. Someone suggested that all artifact removal should be in the board.
Suggestion:
Tes:
- finks, primordium, 2 carpet, 4 removal
+ 4 leyline, 2 chalice, trap, teeg
Ant:
- finks, primordium, 2 carpet, 4 grass, 2 removal
+ 4 leyline, 2 chalice, trap, 2 surgical, teeg
Elves
- finks, primordium, 2 carpet
+ 2 chalice, trap, sliver
Apart from these considerations I'm very happy with the deck/my performance.
What ever came of the In the Eye of Chaos tech?Quote:
Originally Posted by waytowinatwar
1 At the soonest it comes online t2 by which time you might be deadQuote:
Originally Posted by Freggle
2 it dies to Abrupt Decay (for no extra cost)
3 another weapon against tes/ANT at your disposal is teeg/ Gsz for teeg which is also a t2 play. This means if you are playing iteoc that you might have to choose t2 which to play. Chalice/trap doesn't compete with teeg in this way.
Also, but less importantly, it does very little against elves.
It has a lot going for it though, enchantment, easy to cast, no drawback for you, Cool Legends Card
In the Eye of Chaos is very, very strong against ANT in particular, but yes, it basically does nothing in the faster combo matchups. Not necessarily because of speed, but mostly because those decks are so fast that you're unlikely to even get one turn. ItEoC is great, but you will need to play at least two of them if you are planning on having them against the combo matchup, and against the decks that they are best against, we have plenty to bring in already.
For the combo matchup, why did you board in any sort of enchantment removal? I can't think of a single thing that they could bring in against you that would be relevant. I'd also keep in Kitchen Finks in pretty much all combo matchups since it ensures that once you win, you actually win (have infinite life) instead of giving them the chance to cast a Duress or two to take your Mindbreak Traps and then getting you from there.
I haven't really ever played against TES, but my plan against ANT is -4 Elephant Grass, -2 Eternal Witness, -2 Carpet of Flowers, -1 Seal of Primordium for +4 Leyline of Sanctity, +3 Mindbreak Trap, +1 Gaddock Teeg, +1 Tormod's Crypt. Eternal Witness is really pretty bad against combo decks unless they have counterspells, and their discard is going to be negated if you get a Leyline in play so you don't have to worry about rebuying any cards that you lose. It may be correct to leave in one Eternal Witness as a safety valve, but it hasn't ever come up.
Chalice of the Void is not bad, but the odds of you getting it down turn 1 are pretty low. If you're on the draw, you might just lose with it in your hand, and even on the play, they're going to have a chance to Duress it away. I really think the only way that this deck will be able to beat combo in a consistent manner is to just not play against it, meaning that there is a definitely metagame that it is weaker to and one that it is stronger to, but every deck has that. It seems like combo numbers have been dropping fairly consistently over the last few weeks, so things just get better and better. I do think that you give up too much of an edge to the decks that you're good against if you put 12 cards in the sideboard to combat combo, and if you wanted a hard-combo killer, you'd want Arcane Laboratory, but things aren't so drastic that you'd want to go with a card that would hurt you at least 50% as much as it hurts them. Gaddock Teeg is usually enough to beat them, and Tormod's Crypt shuts off half of their kill. Leyline forces them to go Ad Nauseam, and Mindbreak Trap mostly just sits in your hand and gets Duressed away, though it will beat an unprepared opponent, and if you can assemble Leyline + Mindbreak Trap you're probably 95% to win. That's why I don't think it's right to focus anything else on the combo matchup, because you're already bringing in 8-9 cards that are useful in other matchups.
We are having a similar discussion in the RIP / Helm thread in the N&D area. Are we all on the same page thinking the 1st chalice would be set at 0 to shut off artifact mana? ...then move up the line from there?Quote:
Originally Posted by benthetenor
I'll be testing it shortly. I just don't run into a lot of combo in the Testing area of MTGO.
Also, In that thread I'm having success in shaving down Elephant Grass for Mirri's Guile since this is a combo deck and the right cards are important. Has that been tested at all here? Elephant Grass is so good at what it does when it come in from the board I feel very comfortable taking games 2 & 3 if you happen to miss 1 (which is not a given.)
Yes, but chalice for 1 is very bad for us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Freggle
Grass is too powerful imo to cut. If your meta is filled with decks where grass is not great maybe the deck is the wrong choice. I'm not really sure about the combo classification, it has a combo finish but it runs on a powerful redundant card advantage engine which is not really served by guile. Sylvan Library if anything. But it's not very compelling to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Freggle
I guess the idea would be to replace traps with them. But as I said, they are too slow and interact poorly with the gsz for teeg alternative. With trap you can gsz t2 and have trap backup (if you draw both). With chalice you can drop it t1 and gsz t2. With iteoc you have to choose and if they've drawn just a single copy of chain or decay the game is over.Quote:
Originally Posted by benthetenor
That was a mistake. See my refined plans at the end of the post.Quote:
Originally Posted by benthetenor
I don't think you are thinking this through. Once you win you will have 4 leylines in play and three mindbreak traps in hand (and mana to hard cast all of them). There is nothing they can do. And finks add very little pre combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by benthetenor
I disagree. You can't sideboard based on the assumption that you will always have a leyline in play. Witnesses gets traps back when the combo player forces you to discard them. It makes gsz get traps. At the very least, they are better than finks.Quote:
Originally Posted by benthetenor
Quote:
Originally Posted by benthetenor
You set it on 0 so if you're on the play they can't force you to discard it. So the difference between trap and chalice mostly come up when they are on the play. Sometimes they will win t1 without discard. Then trap is better. But if they win t1 with discard neither trap nor chalice makes a difference. So what percentage of games does ant and tes win otp t1 without discard? Keep in mind that most pilots will not just go for it in the dark t1 (not knowing what you have) so their hand has to contain a probe which further lowers the probability. In addition you will sometime have a leyline. How probable is it that they can win through that t1? I think it is low enough to switch to chalice.
I'm not arguing for this.Quote:
Originally Posted by benthetenor
Actually, against tes leyline+trap is not that safe. Since they have silences. So they can silence and then ad naeseum for a solution to leyline or empty the warrens. So here I think chalices are better.Quote:
Originally Posted by benthetenor
@Freggle - Removing Elephant Grass in a G/W Enchantress deck is not a big deal since your primary lock (Solitary Confinement) already does a better job at stopping creatures. In this deck, I would play six or seven Elephant Grass if I could because we don't have any other cards that do what Elephant Grass does, and they're stifling in multiples. The only time it's not in the deck is against decks that don't have any creatures at all. Mirri's Guile has already been asked and answered.
@Waytowinatwar - As I said, I have no experience playing against TES, just ANT. Against ANT, they're pretty much just stone dead to Leyline + MBT, since it means that they have to draw their two-of Chain of Vapor before we start resetting their board or can get out a Gaddock Teeg, which will mean they need both of them, then they need to bounce everything relevant, then they need to Duress away the MBT, then they need to go off. That's a whole lot of hoops to jump through. Again, TES may be completely different, I haven't tested against it. If I'm saying something that you're not trying to argue for, then assume that I'm not talking to you.
On Eternal Witness/Kitchen Finks, you're absolutely right. Eternal Witness has more utility than Kitchen Finks for sure, but I don't think I'd keep in both. I was thinking of when I played one Mindbreak Trap main and not having an actual lock against ANT once I'd already gone off since they could just play a Duress and a bunch of fast mana and get me. The situation is vastly different postboard, and I should have realized that. It does seem to me that they're not very likely to Duress away something that we need to win, like a Words of Wind, vs a bit of disruption, like a Mindbreak Trap, which turns Eternal Witness into a 3-mana Mindbreak Trap that they know is in your hand, and thus not very exciting against a combo deck, but it certainly does have more utility than Kitchen Finks. I would say that they're unlikely to use enough discard to make us lose straight up if we don't have Eternal Witness main, which is the main reason why I don't mind just scrapping them altogether, but there is merit to having one.
As for TES vs ANT, I've been playing storm since it was a thing and ANT is a far superior deck, both in terms of consistency and ease of play. What that means is that TES is still an "established deck" whereas ANT has been a "deck to beat" over the last few months. I would not slant my board or board plan to beat TES at the expense of ANT, as you are probably three to four times more likely to see ANT than TES, particularly as you get to the later rounds. I would go so far as to say that I won't even worry about any version of combo since there's not much I can do to appreciably increase the percentages without sacrificing my already good matchups. If I run into double combo decks and can't beat them with the 9 cards already in my sideboard, then I just have to tip my cap to them. It's for that reason why I don't really like Chalice of the Void, and can't see fit to put in In the Eye of Chaos or Arcane Laboratory. In the metagame where this deck will win, combo barely exists.
New tournament 18 people, 2-2 (1 bye)
R1 Bye
R2 Oops no land 0-2 (former national champion)
G1 otd
7 island, savanah, sprawl, argothian * 2, prescence, grass.
I get four turns and almost make it with my exceptional hand.
G2 (-4 grass, -1 primordium, -2 carpet, -1 fearie, 1 witness, -1 finks + 4 leylines, + 2 surgical, + trap, + 2 chalice + teeg)
7 forest, Heath, island, growth, gsz, wow, leyline
t0 leyline and t2 teeg seems strong. His opening hand is 2 pacts of negation, 3 spirit guides, 1 cantor, 1 vampire, he draws mana.
R3 Bant with geists 0-2 (ok pilot)
G1 otp
7 forest*3, misty, prescence, seal of removal, wow: ship
I know he is playing Bant and i feel that this hand is not fast enough. I now think this was a mistake. Navy seal buys me some time and I might be able to bait a force with wow and safely resolve a prescence on t4 (if I haven't drawn any acceleration before then). At best he has Geist t2, which kills me on its own on his t5. But this is unlikely, he might have t2 knight or t3 geist/ knight but this means I have at least until t6to win.
6 growth*3, faerie, witness, grass:ship
5 forest, 2 argothian, gsz, removal: reluctant keep
He goes t1 bird, I draw and play a growth, he plays a land, passes, cliques me in my draw (which is an islan) takes my removal. Next turn he plays a geist and I can't stabilize fast enough. Not sure what would have happened with my opening seven. Bounce bird, play wow, get prescence taken by a t4 clique?
G2 (not sure how to board + 1 carpet + 1 sliver, -1 witness, - 1 primordium, might have been better just t board the carpet for the witness)
7 island, forest, savannah, wow*2, witness, sliver: ship
Does nothing
6 Heath, carpet, argothian, prescence, faerie, wow
Promising, but not enough mana. I mange to resolve and use carpet, and is in the game, but doesn't get enough protection from creatures and he has multiple knights. I punt on the old wasteland my own land after blockers trick, but it is unlikely that chumping would have made a difference.
This should be an ok matchup I think but I didn't have any experience with it.
R4 Burn 2 - 0
R1 otd
7 tropical, island, sprawl, mox, gsz, primordium, finks.
I know he is playing burn so the t2 finks sells me the keep. (Good hand regardless). Draw mox for a t1 finks. It's not close.
R2 (-2 carpet, - 2 witness, - 2 removal, + 4 leylines, + sliver, + krosan)
7 Island, sprawl*2, mox, argothian, grass, removal.
Solid hand, t1 enchantress, and I start drawing, I remember to set sprawl for white once I hit forests and then draw leyline. Not close.
All in all a poor performance. I should probably have won against bant. Any thoughts on the mulligan decisions/sideboarding?
Is there any place i can find more videos of this deck ? I've already seen the Chris Andersen match and i'm interested in watching more of this deck.