[Deck] Imperial Painter

That's the point. I played Wurmcoil and welder at Ghent and it was boss-like when it gets going. As a discard outlet I ran Gamble, only lived the dream once topdecking Gamble for WCE so I could Welder it back in. And simply just one WCE, it's far too clunky and you never really want to draw it. NOwadays Faithless Looting is taking over what Gamble used to do, and is far better at being a discard outlet. In all it's a sweet card and I had a lot of fun with it, Welder can do nasty things with it but it's just clunky no matter how you set it up. Even as a one-of. End of the day it's great fun, but not really where the deck wants to be going.

I've added a few more matchup guides to the front page. I have kept them pretty general in terms of strategy and boarding tips since everyone's list is different but I can make them more detailed if people want. As always if anyone has questions or wants to discuss a matchup just post in the thread.


To answer the Revoker question asked a few days ago:

What I realized was the matchups where Lightning bolts were preferable to Phyrexian Revoker were already in our favor to begin with and having lightning bolts just made them even better. Revoker helps bring the unfavorable matchups closer to even in game 1. Storm, Griselbrand, Sneak, Deed decks, Planeswalkers etc

Against the fair decks, Lightning Bolt hardly ever gets countered or discarded. All it serves to do is stall the opponent a little bit longer. Revoker at least forces the opponent to deal with it one way or another. Between 2 Revokers and 3 Welders in my list, the opponent has so many creatures they'll want to kill off. Their hand will be pretty much depleted by the time the combo is ready to go.

Good Info Kap'n!

The card count choices I'm most wish-washy on after playing 1 large (50+) and several smaller tournaments now are

18 or 19 Land?
1 or 2 Mox/Petal? in conjunction with the land count
2 or 3 Welder?
2 or 3 SDT?
3 or 4 Faithless Looting?
1 or 2 Magus?

I'll probably be adjusting these numbers constantly over the next months.

With punishing Jund being popular, Magus just feals wonky on turn 1. Blood Moon, yes all day, but not Magus all the time. Thats the one card I'm kind of fine with cutting it down to 1. And so far I've been pretty happy with 4 looting/2 top... but am swayed by the experienced players discussing the power of 3 top here.

Hey guys. Sorry I've been away for so long, but work won't allow magic too much right now.

I wanted to post about Young Pyromancer though. I could see him in a Looting build.

I play this deck aswell and about the tops.. I started with 2-3 and upped them over time to the full set. I feel like top is one the best cards in this deck because a) u don't play bs and can see a lot of extra cards with top with enough mana to actually use it and b) u can easily get rid of excessive sdt with either fetches(most lists play 4-5), recruiters and grindstone manipulation. That being said, I wouldn't go below 3 tops and prefer the card over looting all day. Greetings-

Been testing 3 top / 3 looting (instead of 2/4) and definitely happy with the tops again!

I've been runnin a 3/3/3 split top, looting, magma jet and its runs very smoothly. Looting and jet help clear the chaff and can help get those extra unneeded tops out the way

Okay guys, been combing this thread and this Saturday I'm gonna paint stuff for the first time in a year or so. I took a lot of inspiration from Seth/Drew/Kook's lists on the front page, at least I wanted to take the best of all worlds for my own build. Just to clarify, Drew's conservative list didn't fit my style, and I've tested Enlightened Tutor and was just too clunky. What I've also noticed is the lack of Chrome Mox in the last few pages of discussion and lists as well as on the OP. Any and all commentary is welcome, as I don't have the time to test before Saturday to any sort of lengthy degree. If any of you question or refuse to accept any numbers in the list, please say so!

4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
2 Red Fetches
9 Mountain

4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter's Servant
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Goblin Welder
1 Magus of the Moon
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage

4 Blood Moon
4 Grindstone
3 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Chrome Mox

4 Faithless Looting
3 Pyroblast
4 Red Elemental Blast

The board
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Tormod's Crypt
4 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Pyroblast
1 Faerie Macabre
2 Ratchet Bomb

Here's my defense for card choices based on my own play style (aggressive mulligan for a quick combo or turn 1 moon) and experience with the deck:

Mana base
I dropped the Welder theme I used to run so 8 Sol Land and just two fetches for shuffling with Tops is all that's needed. 19 land seems to be on the boarder of greedy and not enough. 18 was what I used to run but that was also with three Moxen, so a basic has replaced a Mox. I'm still open to Lotus Petal if it has been as good as others have said.

Things that don't change
Sets of Recruiters, Moons, Painters, Stones, SSG. The meat of the deck isn't going anywhere.

Critters
Jaya: She's awesome. I've found myself wanting more, but two maindeck is a bit much. She's always got a place in my sideboard. No need to list stuff she can do.
Revoker: It's creeping in to the same catagory as Jaya, so much utility, so little drawback. Two maindeck is a new number for me, and I'm pretty sure it's going to help a lot of Game One situations.
Welder: Down to one. I used to run 3 with WCE and Ancient Dens, but there's not enough room in the deck for clunk nowadays. Had a good run, Welder can do some sick stuff, but he's now just my kicker with a golden foot.

Things up in the air
4 Faithless Looting: Going somewhat out on a limb, but I think 4 Looting with 3 Tops is plenty to shuffle through chaff on the top of the deck, all the while being synergetic with other interactions built within the deck.
3 Top: Sweet card. Two is too few, four seems a bit much.
7 Blasts: Seven is my maindeck limit. I understand arguments for six, and five is just missing the point of the deck.

The Sideboard
Four Bridges and Thorns aren't changing. Sweet cards are sweet and keep iPainter alive when it would otherwise be dead.

Only three graveyard hate cards. There's the split for the tutorable option with Macabre.

Ratchet Bomb: a good sweeper, and I'm not opposed to running a Martyr of Ashes.

An extra Jaya, for when the first one gets killed in the matchups where you gotta play hard control.

The 8th blast is loose but generally it'll be more applicable than some specific hate card. This will be the first card I cut in the 75 for something else.

Like I said, I play the deck to its strengths. I mulligan a lot and know most matchups to be able to shift between combo/control/beatdown when necessary. Any commentary is most welcome, thanks!

Well Jandax... ;)

I'm not a fan of playing only 5 moon effects... I feel like 7 is a bare minimum for this deck.... My view of the deck:

Get the combo running ASAP or destroy 90% of your OP's game, by hitting that moon, turn 1... That being said, if you're willing to mulligan to 4 or 5 cards, I would like to know, what your thoughts are on the chances that you'd get dazed og FoW'ed with only 1 or 2 cards left in your hand??

I've tried the heavier Welder version, and if it suits some of you guys out there, fine by me and keep playing that version - ;) - but I'm agreeing with J here, by playing 1 G-Welder. The double Phyrexian Revoker is something I'm trying again.

As far as your SB goes..
Thorn and Bridges are good, but are you so satisfied with your main, that you're willing to accept the lack of SB cards to strengthen different MU's?

Jund and RUG is quite popular here, so I'm willing to concede the awesomesauce that is the Turn One Moon Effect for a little more stability. I shaved two Magi (Maguses?) from my old build where I did have seven moon effects. Willing to give the benefit of the doubt to those who have consciously made that choice. Sound logic. But I do want to clarify that while I am willing to mulligan to five or four, without seven moon effects it's less likely I'll go down that low, unless it is the ol' Sol Land Hand. Chances are probable that I'd get my Turn One bidness countered should I be playing that deck. But again that is the point, right? Jam that turn one Moon or Painter for a turn two combo when you win the die roll. With this deck I don't really consider what they have unless I have information. Sure, I think given 100 rounds of Legacy, one could expect to be blown out more than once. But this deck also blows others out of the water turn one as well. I just play it aggressive and accept the consequences. I've won multiple games on four card hands, and many more on five and six cards. Consequently, I've lost many with seven card hands, so where does that leave us? With a numbers game, and by posting my list I'm trying to get as close to perfection with that game.

As for my sideboard, the only set things are the four Thorns and Bridges. That leaves the other seven slots open. Three for GY hate, two sweepers and two maindeck reinforcements. Know anything I'm not addressing?

@jandax

Here's what I see as awkward in the list. 1 Welder, 4 faithless looting. Faithless looting is card disadvantage, without abusing the graveyard it's not very good.

From experience looting is an awful top deck, and without welder can make for a dead card sometimes. I tried 4 for a bit and found it was just too much discarding.

@pheonix

7 moon effects sounds great on paper but in practice isn't always that great. In some matches it CAN be game ending, others it can be worthless. 4 blood moon is 100% correct. After that the number for Magus is debatable. He dies to bolt and punishing fire; Very relevant. A basic plains also ends him.

I realise 4 Looting might be too much, but there's also a lot of chaff that can potentially be discarded. Looting does make a horrible topdeck, but so does Blood Moon, Chrome Mox, a Sol Land (in most cases) and Welder builds are just too clunky for me even with Looting. I'm willing to sacrifice synergy for consistency. That may sound counter productive with so many Faithless Looting, but Goblin Welder isn't the answer to that problem.

Made a slight alteration for test. I'm trying out 2 Gamble. They are paired with 3 SDT and no other "draw or filtering" spells.

From testing I'm liking them better than looting, especially in early turns with a full grip, or obviously with an active welder.

Gamble is better paired with Welders. I ran three in my old build and it's just a blast to play. Sometimes they hit, sometimes they don't. And every now and then a top decked Gamble turned itself into a Wurmcoil Engine that went straight to the 'yard for Welder shenanigans. Looting is IMHO better at sifting through chaff for this deck.

I haven't been able to play very much recently, but I did make it to the local tourney yesterday. I had tried Firebolt in the last two or three events I attended, but this time I went back to 3 Magma Jets in the burn slots. I actually liked the Firebolts, but I think I prefer the scrying since I still find myself losing some games (and thus matches) to dead draws.

So I ran the same list as I posted at the beginning of the thread, but in anticipation of the rules changes, I wanted to test a replacement for the single Metamorph so I experimented with a third Revoker. The 2/1 body for our dork-beatdown strategy is acceptable even when not disrupting, and although I had Revoker several times yesterday when he wasn't really Revoking anything, he quickened my clock and helped double block a Mongoose.

If Metamorph can no longer deal with Jitte, Eldrazi, etc, then he may not be worth it. I'm guessing that the new rules might encourage more Jitte and Liliana among other things, so an extra Revoker might come in handy.

If three Revokers ends up being overkill, then there will be a slot available, and the first options to me would be a sixth Blast or maybe aggro option like Kargan Dragonlord, Figure of Destiny, or even Wildfire Emissary (immune to lots of removal including Abrupt Decay).

Anyone else thinking about the new rules' impact for iPainter?

@Drewlius: I've always thought of the metamoprh, as a reactive card, towards what your OP is playing, and with the rule change, I can't think of anything else than to use the metamorph on your own stuff = cut it!

I'm going to try and make a build, which have similarities with death and taxes in terms of using the vial, to trick the OP.
I think I've might even try 4 revokers main :D

Just like to give some comments as I think some things related to recent posted lists are way off.. First of all 1) NEVER play this deck without 7 moon effects( 4blood moon, 3magus of the moon) are optimal. This is what this deck should try to do. 2) Play with minimum 3 SDT. I find it MVP in this deck u got so many interactions with it( recruiter,grindstone,fetches,1welder) and it is needed to keep you going. Which gets me to #3 I'm just gonna say it : I hate looting in this deck. Its card disadvantage and unless u are running multiple welders/ wurmcoil (which I don't like at all) u are just hymning yourself in some scenarios. It's also a pretty bad topdeck. This deck is supposed to be as consistent and efficient as possible and faithless looting is just the opposite of that. SDT is always way better then faithless looting will ever be. So don't play looting or up the SDT. 4) I see the latests lists here have cut the lightning bolts for faithless looting. This is not good.. The main goal is to get a moon effect going and/or combo out. As the #1 one drop is deathrite shaman atm which interferes with moons I'd like to be able to bolt it. Same goes for dark confidant. These 2 creatures need to die ASAP. If you are on the draw and can t1 bolt deathrite and lay a moon turn 2/3 ur in a way better position as when they have active deathrite obviously. As conclusion I can only advise u to play 7moon effects, 3top min. , no faithless looting and 4lightning bolt. I'm sure the results won't be bad with such list. Greetings

:frown:

Another compelling argument.

Do you run any other library manipulation than 3 tops? And how many shuffle effects (inc. recruiters et al) do you like with a 4 Moon, 3 STD, 4 Bolt build?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rancOr_

Just like to give some comments as I think some things related to recent posted lists are way off.. First of all 1) NEVER play this deck without 7 moon effects( 4blood moon, 3magus of the moon) are optimal. This is what this deck should try to do. 2) Play with minimum 3 SDT. I find it MVP in this deck u got so many interactions with it( recruiter,grindstone,fetches,1welder) and it is needed to keep you going. Which gets me to #3 I'm just gonna say it : I hate looting in this deck. Its card disadvantage and unless u are running multiple welders/ wurmcoil (which I don't like at all) u are just hymning yourself in some scenarios. It's also a pretty bad topdeck. This deck is supposed to be as consistent and efficient as possible and faithless looting is just the opposite of that. SDT is always way better then faithless looting will ever be. So don't play looting or up the SDT. 4) I see the latests lists here have cut the lightning bolts for faithless looting. This is not good.. The main goal is to get a moon effect going and/or combo out. As the #1 one drop is deathrite shaman atm which interferes with moons I'd like to be able to bolt it. Same goes for dark confidant. These 2 creatures need to die ASAP. If you are on the draw and can t1 bolt deathrite and lay a moon turn 2/3 ur in a way better position as when they have active deathrite obviously. As conclusion I can only advise u to play 7 moon effects, 3top min. , no faithless looting and 4 lightning bolt. I'm sure the results won't be bad with such list. Greetings

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1) I guess it needs to be repeated yet again. Magus is not Blood Moon. 3 Magus on top of 4 moons is a variation, not an optimization.

2 and 3) You love top, hate looting. Thanks for sharing. SDT is great, no arguments here. Always better than looting? Not at all. Looting, when played correctly, is card selection or card advantage. If you feel like you are hymning yourself, you are playing it wrong.

4) You like burn spells to supplement your heavy moon plan, great. I do too, just not as much as other cards for the current metagame. This was all already mentioned in the opening post by Drew. Side note: Looting is not the card being added in place of lightning bolt in 'recent builds'


You say the results won't be bad with your choices. You'll do fine since it seems you choices are for a meta of only Deathblade/Shardless Bug and nothing else. But I advise actually learning how to play other variations on the deck (my Welder build, Seth's tutor build, even Drew's scry build) before trashing them.



Regarding Metamorph and Rules change:

Drew I think you will definitely want the extra blast. For decks like Show and Tell and Jitte (not counting other random legendary corner cases like Sigarda in Maverick/Nic Fit or even Thalia to an extent) the usual course of action in the past was recruiting up a pre-emptive metamorph. Now however, the plan against Jitte has to change to grabbing a Painter and blasting it or grabbing Revoker if no blast is available and pray they don't remove it. The new Show and Tell plan is revoker on sneak attack and making sure Show and Tell can't resolve no matter what, so the blast should help out a bunch.

Other than that Metamorph remains the same and there is certainly something to be said for blocking goyf forever, acting as another revoker/painter/vandal/recruiter if need be, or copying whatever cool shit the opponent has and using it yourself. Maybe it will be better for me than others due to Welder but I believe it should still remain in contention for a slot, it's uses just won't be as diverse as they used to be and I will certainly try other combinations out.

Since everyone should be running ensnaring bridge, it might make the most sense to add in another Jaya in place of metamorph to aid the bridge plan. Just my thoughts.

Kapn

I've dropped metamorph about 2 weeks ago in preparation for the rules change, and the least played card in the deck for me. I havnt missed him, and only really want him to kill SnT legendary... But mono blue is SO much better no one should be playing sneak and show anyway. And metamorph does nothing in that match.

Blocking a goyf was the best thing my metamorph ever did.

As for looting and such. I played them heavily for a bit, was a proponent, and now don't like them. I was required to pitch to many cards too many times. Still playing with 2 gamble 3 SDT. Currently no burn in my list.