[Deck]BUx Reanimator

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Originally Posted by th3 w1z4rd

Reanimator blows. Just today I mulled to oblivion three times in a row. Literally none of the hands had the concrete ability to get a creature out by at worst turn 3. Why would anyone play this shit?

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I once mulled to 4 in a tournament and only lost because of a misplay (I didn't fetch with delta in response to a pithing needle, which costed me the game), otherwise I would have won.

Against some decks a creature on turn 3 is good enough to win the game, you don't need to rush a T1 or 2 reanimation.

This deck needs you to play tight and be able to play through the hate, but rewards you with some of the best opening (griselbrand on T1) and the best topdecks in the meta.

Obviously it needs to reflect your playstile, otherwise it will always feel clunky in your hands.

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Originally Posted by kingtk3

I once mulled to 4 in a tournament and only lost because of a misplay (I didn't fetch with delta in response to a pithing needle, which costed me the game), otherwise I would have won.

Against some decks a creature on turn 3 is good enough to win the game, you don't need to rush a T1 or 2 reanimation.

This deck needs you to play tight and be able to play through the hate, but rewards you with some of the best opening (griselbrand on T1) and the best topdecks in the meta.

Obviously it needs to reflect your playstile, otherwise it will always feel clunky in your hands.

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I've been fooling with the deck and I agree that (like every combo deck) it rewards tight play, making the best of your opening hand and subsequent draws and an understanding that the deck (like every deck) isn't a 100%-consisent machine. Random chance is involved, sometimes you go nuts and win, sometimes you draw the wrong 3rd of your combo for six turns.

@Neffy
Strongly considering Inkwell over Archangel. I don't think Karakas is worth running anymore now that Karakas does not destroy opposing Karakas. You run Needle which solves your Karakas problem along with other problem activated abilities instead.

@Kingtk3
Not sure about Dimir Charm. Killing Deathrite is great and so is pitching to force but countering sorceries isn't pretty limited to getting things like Terminus, Burning Wish/Infernal Tutor, Dread Return/Therapy, Ponder. The card disadvantage ability does not reliably bin a creature unless you set it up with Brainstorm and rather just have a Ponder if I want to dig for action. Could be worth trying but what would you cut for it.

Professor_Awesome
I run 16 lands (2 island, 2 swamp) and 4 petals which makes it slightly easier to cast show and tell and I am not returning my land for Dazes either. Might revisit Daze but I been doing alright without it.

I see Daze being better if you are really agressive with it like it seems you are. I don't always Daze the first thing I can like Brainstorm or Ponder although I understand that that agressive line of play can prevent them from getting what they need.

Jin is bad versus instant removal that can kill him before you draw 7 otherwise Jin is pretty good. There just seems to be lots of Swords to Plowshares decks and decks running Dismember lately and less combo at big events so I haven't been running Jin although I do run him at my local shop cause there is a decent number of combo players where Jin just wins the game if he sticks.


@th3 w1z4rd
I actually find Reanimator to mulligan rather well since you have so many redundant combo peices and Brainstorm/Ponder to find them. Issue that I have sometimes is the low land count really can be a problem with not drawing enough lands against denial decks with Wasteland and Stifle.

@Barbed Blightning
I actually think Reanimator is one of the more consistent combo decks as far as resolving the combo with Brainstorm and Ponder to find it and Thoughseize + Force/Daze to resolve it. I have played Elves, Epic Storm, Dredge, Hyper Show and Know, Sneak and Show and I prefer Reanimator. Reanimator does have some slight issues with denial decks because of the low land count and is vulnerable to grave yard hate as well as creature removal. There also is something to be said about attacking with fatties.

So I'm currently back to Reanimator (I can't quit you!) and had some thoughts and questions for people:

Regarding Engineered Explosives from the board: How are people liking it? It's nice to be able to actually answer (as opposed to bouncing) problem permanents, but is the slower speed worth it over bounce? Bringing it in also makes it likely we're going to be losing on blue spell count as well in a deck that's already fairly light on blue cards for FoW.

Regarding Daze vs Thoughtseize: I'm still torn on this. In the past, I used to be in the Thoughtseize camp, but with the speed that Reanimator can go off now due to Lotus Petals, I've been having loltastic time Dazing people on T2.

Regarding Grave Titan / Tidespout Tyrant: Is anyone else getting less and less happy with Tidespout Tyrant? Yes, I understand we need to be able to bounce Ensnaring Bridges sometimes, but most of the time I see him, I'm just angry he's not doing much. I've been playing around with Grave Titan and he's been surprisingly solid against some of our problem cards / matchups (D&T, Liliana).

Sideboarding: I see that a lot of people are on the Show & Tell plan vs the UWR Delver deck due to RIP. While I can understand that, I think it could be wrong due to them having pretty much the same taxing disruption package as RUG + REBs. I think that just bringing in the EE / bounce plan is fine and actually boarding out the Show & Tells. Thoughts?

Thoughts about the Young Pyromancer hybrid reanimator lists that SCG has been pushing lately? It seems like an interesting idea to combat the DRS hate that seems prevalent across the format right now.

Key highlights:
Core reanimation shell (Entomb, Reanimate, FoW, Daze, Brainstorm, Ponder)
Compact reanimation targets -- Griselbrand and Elesh Norn.
Alternate, non-GY plan with Young Pyromancer.
Lightning Bolt!

Elesh Norn & Griselbrand represent the best ways to fight fair and non-fair decks, respectively.
The spells this deck plays are the most efficient versions and are highly synergistic with Young Pyromancer.

The deck loses a little density of reanimation spells, but makes up for it with more cantrips. Additionally, Lightning Bolt adds reach as well as offering a method to kill DRS, Scavenging Ooze, Delver of Secrets, etc.

The biggest question is how consistent this version is.

For reference:
4 Young Pyromancer
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Griselbrand

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Entomb
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Exhume
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
4 Reanimate

1 Badlands
3 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island

Well at least when it gets Blood Mooned out of the game it can still cast spiteful Lightning Bolts ...

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Originally Posted by nedleeds

Well at least when it gets Blood Mooned out of the game it can still cast spiteful Lightning Bolts ...

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That's true. It more than likely will just counter it with FoW; but here's hoping Magus of the Moon is the offender, rather than the Enchantment.

I see it, I just don't understand what makes it substantially better than traditional Reanimator. I understand YP and bolt are good, but it's like UWR delver: it's splitting ends just to play both. If Red had an entomb effect (better than looting) I could see it.

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Originally Posted by nedleeds

Well at least when it gets Blood Mooned out of the game it can still cast spiteful Lightning Bolts ...

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Thats obviously my biggest worry. I like these changes alot... but going full non basic has me thinkin on it. I may try this version ina couple weeks though

If anything, the YP lists should really be playing Izzet Charm over Lightning Bolt.

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Originally Posted by Esper3k

If anything, the YP lists should really be playing Izzet Charm over Lightning Bolt.

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This.

I like new ideas and techs, but I think that this is going a little off target: it's more of a UR pyro with some reanimation spells than the otherside. The idea of YP is intriguing, but I would explore it in another way.

Yeah id have to agree. I still prefer to keep grave titan in the deck if i want to start flooding the board.. and yes if you are gonna splash red, then izzit charms feel alot more appropriate

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Originally Posted by Esper3k

Sideboarding: I see that a lot of people are on the Show & Tell plan vs the UWR Delver deck due to RIP. While I can understand that, I think it could be wrong due to them having pretty much the same taxing disruption package as RUG + REBs. I think that just bringing in the EE / bounce plan is fine and actually boarding out the Show & Tells. Thoughts?

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The list I've run since Griselbrand didn't include S&T, rather 2 Echoing Truth in the main and a ever changing backup of more bounce and sometimes EE in the side. I know we shouldn't discuss budgeted decks here, but with poverty breeding innovation and whatnot, my experience has found even against DRS and main deck RiP, not very ofter would a S&T have given a win out of an otherwise loss. A lot of times I faced people in Game 2 that were sandbagging Oblivion Ring or Angel of Despair expecting to see the S&T after they open with a Leyline, only to see me Chain of Vapor it at the end of their turn and then throw something out.

I can see how people lean on S&T post board once the element of surprise is gone, but using S&T and then not winning that turn ala OmniTell and the like just seems suboptimal.

Then again, all the list of success have run it...

I agree with respect to S&T being a big crutch. People have been prepared for months for S&T into fattie. I would rather play more EE / Echoing Truth to deal with graveyard hate. The only time playing S&T would be appropriate is if you're also playing Gitaxian Probe to verify the coast is clear.

@Esper3k
Engineered Explosives is pretty good many of the things Pithing Needle is not. Rest in Peace, Baleful Strix, lots of Goblin or Zombie Tokens. Counterbalance, Tarmogoyf. Can even remove Ensnaring Bridge or Solitary Confinement with a Lotus Petal.

Thoughtseize wins over Daze giving you information and taking their best card. In a pinch Thoughtseize can make you discard a creature. Daze is highly conditional and only good on turns 1-3 and loses effectiveness on the draw or as the game goes on.

Tyrant is a concession to having an answer for everything. It bounces Emrakul, Ensnaring Bridge, Maze of Ith, Glacial Chasm and more. Its not a particulary good beater but if you need to bounce something to win you have Tyrant.

Grave Titan has been decent. Its pretty amazing vs Jund. Death and Taxes the Titan is vulnerable to Swords to Plowshares but dodging Karakas is pretty good.

@Koby
Young Pyromancer Hybrid looks like someone took a Delver Deck and took out the delvers and some stuff and put in a reanimation package. Not sure I like it because it opens you up to Wasteland and Blood moon relly ruining up your day.

Show and Tell gets around grave yard hate all together while having its own weaknesses.

Do you prefer Echoing Truth over Wipe away? I think I play against Miracles too much because several of my test partners play it so I run Wipe Away. Engineered Explosives gets the Goblins and Zombie Tokens.

@Pirate King
You can't always rely on Bounce. Opponent might have 2 different gaveyard hate cards on the board or hit you with a Surgical Extraction/Extirpate. Show and Tell just goes around Graveyard hate altogether. Yes it has its own drawbacks but those can be mitigated. Thoughtseize lets if the coast is clear and take a creature if they have one. Costing 3 isn't so terrible with Lotus Petals.

I play against friends who run Miracles with main deck Rest in Peace so I run main deck Show and Tell to have an answer.

Thanks for the thoughts, Kirika! Regarding EE, I was thinking of it more as a comparison vs bounce since it's a solution for permanent based hate that Pithing Needle doesn't get. Are people finding that the speed you give up with EE is worth it to permanently answer something?

Few things I been thinking about.

Is Ashen Rider better then Terrastadon as the boarded removal creature?
Terrastadon can hit more then one thing but drawback is it gives the opponent elephants. this can be good if you want to hit your own land for extra blockers or pressure but that doesn't happen often. Ashen Rider exiles so is better then Angel of Despair other then hurting you for 1 more life if reanimated. The exiling again on death isn't to relevant because of Swords to Plowshares and Path to Exile.

To Daze or not to Daze?
Daze can be a blow out if you get someone with it but is less good on the draw and gets worse as the game goes on and is worse once your opponent knows you have it or just plays around Daze. Haven't been running Daze lately opting for more Thoughtseize and fitting in Show and Tell but might consider it again.

Is Jin worth it without Daze?
Jin a blow out vs combo and if you can play him on turn 1 on the play with Daze or Force back up to answer what their play. Not so good versus decks with swords to plowshares or even dismember.

@Esper3k
Engineered Explosives can permanently remove creatures like Thalia, Dark Confidant, Tarmogoyf, Meddling Mage, Ooze that just bouncing them isn't all that great unless your doing it repeatedly with Tidespout.

I prefer running with Daze, while usually boarding it out if I'm on the draw games 2 or 3. I find having the extra counter very helpful when trying to force through a reanimation spell or dealing with maindeck hate. I run 3 Daze and 3 Thoughtseize in my main and it seems to work well for me, although I keep all my Shows in the sideboard so I have the space for it. If I was going to run 2 Shows main I'd probably cut 1 of each. Also if the opponent knows your playing Daze and as a result plays around it, they're slowing themselves down so it's helpful, all the better if you actually boarded them out and they're slowing up a turn for no reason.

Without Daze I'd take Jin out, STP and Dismember are too common to rely on the 4 Forces alone. While you have a good shot at drawing them off the D7 it's not consistent enough for me.

I'm not a fan of Jin-Gitaxias, especially not at the cost of the 4th Griselbrand. While there are some situations where Jin is better, Griselbrand's overall utility in a much greater number of situations just gives him the slot for me.

On EE vs bounce: Certainly dealing with hate permanently is preferable, but the question is it worth the loss of speed due to costing more mana and reducing the number of blue cards (admittedly a smaller consideration)?

Ashen Rider is significantly better than 'don against aggro decks and sneak/show decks; while the elephant herd is better against dedicated combo decks. But it seems like Iona is probably ~ equal in value against the combo decks too so I'd say Rider is better.