Agreed. I ran into the version running black and the combo and it was definitely tricky.
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Agreed. I ran into the version running black and the combo and it was definitely tricky.
Hi guys, I'm trying to run a more streamline version of the deck. The decklist is as follow
//Artifact
4 Pithing Needle
4 Expedition Map
//Instant
4 Crop Rotation
3 Not of This World
//Sorcery
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Sylvan Scrying
1 Hymn to Tourach
1 Thoughtseize
//Enchantment
4 Sylvan Library
//Creature
4 Vampire Hexmage
//Land (27)
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Sejiri Steppe
4 Bayou
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Forest
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Marsh Flats
1 Polluted Delta
//Sideboard
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Nature's Claim
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
2 Krosan Grip
1 Rishadan Port
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
If possible, could you tell me any tips and whether this deck could work or not. Thanks in advance.
I have been testing two tops in the gemstone mine slot. I think it should be ok, I was a lot of time flooded with lands and these two tops might find a green manasource/map or the combo anyway.
It also gives a good late game.
Three might be too much, you never want to see two which happens a lot with 3.
Testing some changes in side null rod and krosan grip for miracle and storm ; instead of ratchet bomb and one grudge and sage. It might be ok but I like the versatility of ratchet bomb at answering things like needle on thespian.
Decay could have done the same work but it doesn't answer blood moon if you are not ready for it.
Also could try some Night of soul's betryal's which might be very good in current metagame from The miracle's guy Bug deck.tech maybe a one or two off in side cause it is a bit slow (I have been thinking of a version with 3 main and ancient tomb+trini to accelerate
but it has not been anywhere concluant yet life loss is a pain and more color screwed).
I have been considering 4 Lotus Petal main for some added acceleration. There are many times when I want to play an Expedition Map and play a discard spell turn 1. I would probably cut the Tabernacle and maybe the Blasts to make room.
I'm still not happy with my sodeboard. Do we really need Pyroclasm AND Deluge? I think we are already pretty favored against the decks for which we would want Pyroclasm (URx Delver, Elves). I'd rather have more in the board to fight combo and Miracles, as adrien suggests.
Thoughts?
Lotus petal is bad, I have been already playing them in the past but we don't need acceleration anymore because we are slowing down opponent thanks to discard and reb.
Which was a problem before cause the deck had more tutor but nothing to slow down opponent (aka Into the North and Not of this world firsts builds)
Yes we want them against lot of decks elfes is not so easy ; you should mulligan on the draw in either a turn 2 sweeper turn 3 kill or turn 4 kill with duress/kozilek backup or discard+turn 3 sweeper.Quote:
Do we really need Pyroclasm AND Deluge?
A turn 3 sweeper without discard or a needle is often too slow.
Pyroclasm is also good against UR/Bug tempo/Goblin/painter/Death and taxes. I wouldn't play less than 2.
I am testing this version :
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Dark Depths
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Snow-Covered Forest
4 Copperline Gorge
4 Mana Confluence
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Maze of Ith
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Pithing Needle
4 Crop Rotation
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Expedition Map
4 Sylvan Library
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Duress
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Creeping Tar Pit
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Null Rod
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
The miracle and storm matchups are greatly improved after side. The two top gives more consistency when your library is decayed/countered and such and helps getting less mana flooded.
I cut one grudge, not that it is not needed but bringing 2 grudge and 1 grip might be an ok switch.
The problem of not playing ratchet bomb might be an issue to pithing needle. So we might bring some grip (if you expect enchantment+artifact see URdelver Moon)/grudge (Rugdelver Bugdelver Jund elves) in his place 2-3.
Though it can be sometimes problematic ; the multiple applications of ratchet bomb are awesome. Just a matter of metagame and what you expect in your opponent's side.
I'm fine with keeping 2 Pyroclasm in the side. I was running 4 online and 3 in paper so I can agree that 2 is a good number. Forgive me if I'm off base, but how is your sodeboard better equipped to handle Storm? Null Rod shuts off Lotus Petal and Lion's Eye Diamond, but they can still win without those, right? It probably does slow them down a bit, though. Maybe I've just been sideboarding improperly in those matchups.
I do like the Tops main. Been thinking of doing that for a while. Glad to know that you're liking them.
null rod helps but isn't a great answer...I think it shines because all we really need is to delay them a turn or two since our deck is almost as fast. nullifying 8 of their mana sources is big especially since they are free mana sources. However, if they have dark rituals / cabal rituals you might be able to cut off extra mana / PIF with a crop rotation into bojuka bog. There isn't a great deal the current configuration of this deck can do so it's unlikely you are doing something wrong. You may need to make better choices when discarding cards from their hand. Infernal tutor is commonly a good choice but you man need to choose something else depending on circumstances.
You can catch me online cockatrice now if you wanted to test or chat more about it.
I don't have Cockatrice, unfortunately; only MTGO. I'll give Null Rods a try and see if they help slow Storm down. Miracles is incredibly annoying as well, so adrien's sideboard should help in that respect as well.
Quick question: Does Needle stop Lotus Petal and/or Lion's Eye? I'm under the assumption at least LED cannot be Needled.
Edit I seriously hate Storm! Lost game 1 even though he mulled to 5. Had the token but he top decked Infernal Tutor. :/ Game 2, I had turn 2 token on the play, and he goes off turn 2. Why can't I beat this deck?!?
needle doesn't stop mana abilities so no to both. anything that is "<do something>: add <x> mana" is a mana ability. An exception is DRS because its "<do something>: <do something> & add <x> mana"Quote:
Originally Posted by TLK
anyone try ethersworn canonist? she can be protected with sejiri steppe in a bind. Since we're in red there is also, pyrostatic pillar eidolon of the great revel
Everything can be needled (name a card). But you cant stop mana ability's like led or mountain.
Why 2 tops? With 4 sylvian library its like 6 tops!?
The two tops are remplacing mana sources (2 gemstone mine), so that you don't get flooded with lands. The fact that the deck has already a good amount of lands (25 vs 27) imply that you can easily get the first colored land/map with top but you don't get flooded as often. It also gives a good late game when your library are destroyed/countered. Library is there to have an answer to swords to plownshare and dig through your combo I wouldn't play less than 4.Quote:
Why 2 tops? With 4 sylvian library its like 6 tops!?
Null rod is quite good against storm they can sometimes chain Ritual for PiF (you may have crop for that) but it slows them down a lot you are most of the time one turn slower than them so it might be enough ; it is good against miracle answering tops/EE you have to take off your expedition map for that obviously. Not having ratchet bomb to answer entreatTheAngel might be an issue though.
I haven't extensively tested this side configuration so I might switch to first side (with ratchet bomb) which I tested a lot if it happened to not be working.
I also would like to test a one or two off Night soul's betrayal in side.
i've found that top isn't that great because i always want a business spell instead. additionally i found it to be mana intensive. its easily better than lands if you are getting flooded but ancient stirrings might be better.Quote:
Originally Posted by adrieng
im interested in hearing what you find out about night of souls betrayal. I really love that card but could never find the right deck for it. It kills our vamp hexmage too.
In 7 of our variable slots i'll be testing 4 meddling mages and 3 ethersworn canonist. mage seems like the dream card here cause it hits swords in addition to hitting combo cards. canonist is bad for omni, elves, Ant and other storm decks. when combined with mage its great. Not the best but may buy the turns that we need better than a discard spell... idk i'll test and report back.
EDIT* daring suggested teeg over canonist, and that actually sounds better since its effective against similar things canonist is and stronger when combined with mage. Teeg g1 against ant is a blow out normally and it also is good against FOW, planes walkers, treasure cruise, Sneak Attack, submerge, natural order, chalice, GSZ, all of miracles threats (jace, entreat the angels, terminus, engineered explosives)
Would you reconfigure your mana base to accommodate for the addition of Teeg? Only 6 white sources (4 if you cut the Mines for Tops). Same goes for Mage, which is white/blue (both our "off" colors).
ehh they get chain of vapor'd / abrupt decayed just as fast as you can draw them. mixed with the mana fixing issues its not the answer we are looking for. basically we draw them at the same pace they draw the answers but since they have better dig engine they are better off.Quote:
Originally Posted by TLK
TLDR: teeg/mage not what we are looking for.
in my testing someone suggested sphere of resistance / thalia. sphere seems better just because its colorless and helps ever so slightly against elves.
thinisphere is a turn to slow and chalice isn't optimal since it hits more of our spells and they can still play around it.
Sigh...back to square one.
Top remplace Colored manasources stirings is uncastable with colorless mana ; The deck has a lot of colorless manasources and top is good with it ;Quote:
i've found that top isn't that great because i always want a business spell instead. additionally i found it to be mana intensive. its easily better than lands if you are getting flooded but ancient stirrings might be better.
If you remplace inquisition/duress/ reb with sh**t like teeg/meddling mage/canonist 2 CC you will likely lose to tempo WAY more often ;Quote:
In 7 of our variable slots i'll be testing 4 meddling mages and 3 ethersworn canonist. mage seems like the dream card here cause it hits swords in addition to hitting combo cards. canonist is bad for omni, elves, Ant and other storm decks. when combined with mage its great. Not the best but may buy the turns that we need better than a discard spell... idk i'll test and report back.
those ONE cc are the best for what they do and there is no reason to play without them obviously they are better against some decks but they are not better in averaged.
This deck has not a very good ANT matchup just live with that (though I beat my two last ANT players irl mulligan aggresively is key).
Yeah I wouldn't replace the discard spells. How do you mulligan against ANT, Adrien? What type of hand are you looking for? I feel I do a good job of picking the right spells with my discard effects, but they ALWAYS seem to go off the turn I can make a token and swing for 20 my next turn. Very frustrating. Perhaps I've been unlucky (like the guy last night having basically nothing in hand and top decking Infernal Tutor), but it's beginning to mess with me mentally haha.
You want either turn 3 kill on the play which most of the times ok ; or at least two discard/reb/library with a turn 4 kill. I don't say it is easy it is a bad matchup but sometimes you can win about 40%.Quote:
How do you mulligan against ANT, Adrien?
Though my opponent missplayed game 2 he went for PiF while he saw I had a crop in hand an get punished for that.
Running Top main hurts a little against Miracles since you usually Needle their Top. If you side in Null Rod against them, you shut off your own Top and Map.